One of the basic freedoms we cherish in this country is the privledge of worshipping or not worshipping at the church of your choice.
As I was watching the news this morning it seems that a town in Illinois is having a very serious conflict. The celebrate Halloween and Christmas like most other school districts do.
The problem? About 30% of the population is Muslim and don't feel that it is fair. They want their religion to take precidence over these holidays.
I realize that no where in the Constitution does it SAY the seperation of church and state but rather that no church doctrine shall supersede state or federal govenment laws. Which basically means the same thing.
Let's look at Halloween. I don't see it as a Christian holiday. In fact I know many Christians that will not celebrate or let their children celebrate this holiday. They feel that it is a Pagan principle and has to do with devil worship. Being a pagan I know that Halloween is based on Samhain...which is a Pagan holiday but has nothing to do with the devil. Pagan's don't believe in the devil. Worshiping the devil to Pagan's is the same as worshiping the Christian god...they don't believe in either one.
Now let's move on to Christmas. Traditionally it is celebrated as Jesus' birth. But anyone that has read the King James version of the bible should have read the passage that indicates Jesus was born in the spring. Christmas is also based on a Pagan holiday of Yule.
I celebrate both Samhain and Yule. Schools traditionally let out at Christmas partially because of the timing. It is about halfway between the beginning and end of the school year so it is a perfect time to let the teachers and students both have a break from each other.
Muslims don't want equality they want SUPERIORITY.
And I for one am tired of catering to a religion that from what I have seen breeds nothing but radical zealots.
My 2 cents.
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Comments: 51
Sheryl I know it's crazy.
Ghostly I agree I wish I had that much time off from work...paid of course.
Dancing with my Dream (Vote Round Two)"
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977133654
I also heard that the O'Reilly Factor mentioned this tonight, although I didn't see it.
Thanks for getting the word out.
Most christians I know don't celebrate Halloween.
Of course I can't wait to dress up my kid and let him get candy, I see it as a child holiday. Just like Valentines is a couple holiday(dont get me started on the orgin of that one)
Almost every place I know of calls Christmas vacation, Winter vacation because of the seperation.
From the non-pc part of me...get over it and learn to live well with others.
I am a defender of the separation of Church and State so I do not believe any religion should have a presences in a publicly funded school. I even think that churches should not be given access to any government building to hold services whether it is in school or not. To me whether the Church, Synogue or Mosque is paying for the building or not doing this makes it appear that the government might be supporting religion and that to me is unexceptable.
I my opinion the Muslims should get as many holidays as any other religion should get but I do not think any religion should get any holidays that are sponsered by the State.
I do love trick or treating and I think the people who want to put any meaning on the day other than dressing up and getting candy are idiots because that is all it is for the kids.
I think the superintendent made the right choice. If the schools tried to include everybody's different holidays, the kids would never learn anything else. Better to get rid of them all and find other ways to have fun and to do the main thing they're there to do. Learn.
The Muslim mother simply wanted to put up a display for Ramadan. She did not want domination over the other holidays and your attempt to represent it as such is disgusting.
All she wanted was for the school to recognize Ramadan as a holiday and to allow her to put up a simple display. That particular school system lets students out for Christmas and I'm sure they give them several other days surrounding the holiday to allow for vacation planning. The school system also, for Halloween, has a parade.
Was she asking for days off for Eid or Ramadan? No. Was she asking for a parade for Ramadan? No. Was she asking that other holidays be canceled? No. All she wanted was to have some equality with the other holidays.
She had already made a display the year before, and she had also made the Christian and Channakuh displays as well, so she is clearly not bigoted against those holidays and even honors them. All she wanted in return was a little, very small gesture of honor returned to the significant minority of Muslims in the school. Yet it was opposed.
You say that we have separation of church and state: that no religion is held higher than others. Yet that's clearly not the case as students are allowed to celebrate Christian, Pagan and Jewish holidays, yet we're banned from even putting up a display and recognizing a Muslim one.
"Muslims don't want equality they want SUPERIORITY. "
Well according to you and many others here, celebrating Christmas and Halloween is pagan. So we have afforded rights to Pagan worshiping but not to Muslim worshiping. And you say that Muslims want superiority?!?! You pagans already have that superiority!
They got rid of the Halloween stuff because of alleged Satanist connections. I was glad because it eliminated the costume parade which was really a who's the best mother competition.
When the school district was going to adopt a new series of readers they forced the district to abandon its first choice. The books contained actual stories and essays, not the predigested stuff kids usually get in the lower grades. The only problem was the fairy tales. Some of the fairy tales had, gasp, witches.
*climbs on soap box
Public schools and public libraries are two of the most important American institutions. Free access to knowledge is one of the best things we can do for equality of opportunity. Schools and libraries are the key to having an informed electorate. Paying for the education of other people's kids is everyone's patriotic duty.
*climbs down from soap box panting and shaking
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." and we pray "... with liberty and justice for all." It's true? Really? Since when? What justice do we hold in our hearts for those we perceive as different? What liberty are we willing to give to them? And, since liberty is the set of rights and privileges we all share, by infringing on someone else's liberty, in the end, we sacrifice our own. That looks like perfect justice to me, and I have no reasonable doubt of its source.
It is my opinion that christians should be most offended by this state religion, since it has insidiously co-opted christian celebrations and thereby undermined christian values and beliefs most of all. Whether they choose to be offended or not is, of course, their choice. Still, their children are taught that as part of the celebration of their Savior's birth, they should pray to the consummate materialist Santa Claus. The American state religion is so pervasive it's blinding! Hey, Thanksgiving is celebrated in christian churches all across the country, but what's its origin? The Pilgrims? Not really...
Clearly, our Constitution does not contain the phrase "separation of church and state." That's just good old fashioned COMMON SENSE. Just because we have throughout our history unwisely mingled religion with the state, doesn't mean that we should choose that course for our future. Poor decisions made in the past must chart the course for the future? Does past injustice justify current and future injustice? Liberty implies justice implies balance.
"And here without anger or resentment I bid you farewell. Sincerely wishing that as men and christians, ye may always fully and uninterruptedly enjoy every civil and religious right; and be, in your turn, the means of securing it to others; but that the example that ye have unwisely set, OF MINGLING RELIGION WITH POLITICS, MAY BE DISAVOWED AND REPROBATED BY EVERY INHABITANT OF AMERICA." (Thomas Paine, Common Sense)
By the way, Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" was political rhetoric that was written BEFORE our Declaration of Independence. Whether or not it really is common sense is up to you to decide. For myself, I have decided that in this case it is. The more secure we make other folks' rights, the more secure our own rights will be, period. (note redundancy)
Remember: This is the U.S. respect the American people, quit trying to change everything for your own selfish reasons. You entered our country to be a part of it, if it's not to your liking, then go back to where ever you came from. There you shouldn't have any problems, b/c that's your culture. All I seem to hear is pissing & moaning, the U.S. isn't fair, they don't do this for our culture, I don't like that about the Americans culture, whine, whine, whine, GET OVER IT!
I don't care what you want to believe in, or what your culture wants to do, but it's ridiculous that it's the American people having to change their ways of life, & other's trying to take over our culture & replace it w/ theirs. If any of us moved to any foreign place, would the same thing occur? Hell no, is the answer.
If your children want to pray, let them, if anyone doesn't want their child to celebrate the American's traditional holidays, then don't let them, keep them home, home school them, what ever it takes, but taking from the American's has got to end, disrespecting us, is ridiculous. I'm sure certain schools do whatever foreigner people want, b/c they're scared of a law suit, or racism allegations, which is a bunch of b.s. Changing Christmas to winter festival is stepping on people's toes. Does the American's have a say so anymore? Should we all kick up about muslims wearing sheets, that should go against the dress code, some schools you can't wear big baggy clothes, or hats on the head, flags on shirts, can't really express your religion w/ out offending some idiot that craves attention, or wants to whine about something.
If someone doesn't like what others do, & you come from elsewhere, either A) move, B) overlook it, respect the people, & do what you will, it's simple as that. If I moved far a way to some other state, & they had traditions there that I'm not use to, I'd respect the people, & if I didn't want to be a part of something, I wouldn't, that's it. If I was uncomfortable w/ the place that I moved to which was my choice, then I'd move back to where I'd come from. IT'S ONE'S CHOICE TO MOVE TO THE U.S., IF YOU DON'T LIKE OUR COUNTRY, OR OUR WAY OF LIFE, BYE! I REFUSE TO CHANGE MY LIFE FOR OTHERS THAT DON'T RESPECT MY TRADITION, CULTURE, ETC. WE ARE ALL DIFFER., I CAN RESPECT OTHERS DIFFERENCES, BUT WHEN IS FOREIGN PEOPLE GOING TO LEARN TO RESPECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S WAYS OF LIFE.
If we have to change for the hispanics, the muslims, what about all of the other groups of people, are we going to have to learn every groups language, culture, religion, etc. & forget about our own, b/c that's the way it seems.
Keep in mind, my mother wouldn't allow me to celebrate halloween, she said it's devil's day, o.k., I didn't participate in certain things related to "devil's day", that was fine & I wasn't singled out for it or anything, & there wasn't a riot breaking out over the fact that a traditional event was going on that offended some church goer's, there wasn't a problem, & didn't expect the school to step in to stop halloween. I was raised to celebrate Christ not santa claus for Christmas, again same thing, I respected what others did, said etc. I wasn't offended, that was just little celebrations, party's that the children enjoy, fun, I don't see where that's pushing anything off on anyone, you have the choice to participate or not.
LOL, Isn't that a tradition that goes all the way back to the Pilgrims, the Conquistadors, etc.?
In this particular case, none of the news stories I read said anything about when the parent (or parents) came to the US, or even whether they were immigrants at all. Not all Muslims "come to the US." Some are born in the US. Either way, they're a part of the school community and they can bring up issues just like anybody else.
In this case, the mother asked why the school allowed celebrations associated with Xmas and Halloween, but not Ramadan. They put up Ramadan decorations at one of the schools, and apparently somebody didn't like it and had them taken down. I don't know whether the person who wanted the Ramadan decorations taken down was an immigrant or not, and I don't see why it would matter.
Now apparently the school board has decided to keep Xmas and Halloween, and to include Ramadan. Hopefully that's a solution that will make everybody happy, but somehow I doubt it.
On another thread, Wil commented that he supports Socialism and that he wished that he was the person heading a Socialist regime being the person in charge of distributing all of the wealth out equally amoungst the citizens of the Socialist regime.
Be careful what you wish for people, you just might get it.
Isn't that strange , your buddy Doyaly gets upset when you go back 30 years to show that the ACLU is a Communist organization and you want to go back, way back to when the Pilgrams came to America to cultures and traditions that were started way back then. Don't you think the traditions and the cultures of America in todays World exemplify what the rest of the World would like to achieve? Or do you and your buddies want to change that to exonerate your tendency to want a socialist government?
Your Mantra :"Anywhere there is evil to be found", You might just have something there!
I don't want a socialist government, Bob. Reaper's just trying something new since his assertion that I was "more along the lines of a Nazi, however with some Socialist views" didn't get much of a reaction. He's hoping he can get a bit more mileage by lying about what I said in another discussion.
Other than that, I don't know how to answer your question. I don't know how changing American traditions and cultures would exonerate my tendency to want anything.
"Isn't that strange , your buddy Doyaly gets upset when you go back 30 years to show that the ACLU is a Communist organization and you want to go back, way back to when the Pilgrams came to America to cultures and traditions that were started way back then."
I don't know if Doyle will get upset with me because I went "way back" to the Pilgrims, but I'm willing to take my chances, LOL. But if you'd prefer to move up to more contemporary times, I'd say that changes in American culture, language, holidays, religion and whatever else has been going on from before the Pilgrims right up to the present day. And it happens whether any immigrants are involved or not. If you want some idealized form of "American Culture" frozen in time, too bad. It's never going to happen. Like the old saying goes, "The only constant is change."
"Don't you think the traditions and the cultures of America in todays World exemplify what the rest of the World would like to achieve?"
I think there are a lot of great things about American traditions and cultures. Americans, both individually and collectively, have a great deal to be proud of. But to answer your question, no. No, I don't think American traditions and cultures exemplify what the rest of the world would like to achieve. Many people in the rest of the world are just as proud of their own traditions and cultures, and so they should be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCVUot-hBo
"In this particular case, none of the news stories I read said anything about when the parent (or parents) came to the US, or even whether they were immigrants at all. Not all Muslims "come to the US." Some are born in the US."
Really, do ya think?
And, no it doesn't matter, I don't care if a muslim or whoever else is born here, migrated here, or whatever is their business, do what they will, but don't expect everyone else who doesn't want to be associated by far w/ their religious beliefs, & basically try shoving it down everyone's throats, & try getting people's kids more involved w/ their religion, that's a bunch of $hit.
No matter what you, who seems to think he's so much more worthy, or your opinions are so much more worthy is going to change my belief on the matter, so give it up! You might not mind others pushing their beliefs & what not on you, that's great, good for you, but I am one that I refuse to allow it, & guess what that's my right!
As far as what I've heard a lot of school's have had to change Christmas to winter festival, b/c it offended others such as muslims, who have different beliefs, & they don't celebrate Christmas, whine, whine, whine.
On the other hand, now other religious groups, as in muslims are allowed to have their religious input in the school system, that's not right by far, & it's offensive to Christians, & others who don't want any part w/ their religion. When people want to kick up about prayer in school, the pledge of allegiance, or anything associated w/ God, related in any way to Christians hell is broke loose, others get their way, Christians are told we can't have it, it's offensive to others that are athiest, or they're not in to the Christian faith. I'm tired of that, I can respect what other's think, & do, but if rules are changed things are cut out for other's beliefs, then it needs to go both ways, this is where double standards comes to play, like many things.
BTW, I don't think Halloween should even be thrown up as if it's a religious battle, muslims will allow us to keep halloween, & winter festivals as long as they can have their religious events & put it in people's face, & their children that are there for education, not teachings of muslim's holiday/religious belief. If one wants the education of their belief, fine, there's many ways you can do that w/o bothering others in school, read up on it, go to their place of worship, that's one's right, but mine & others right still stands strong, & that would be, we don't have to except others faith!
Well then refuse to allow it. No skin off my back, I can assure you. I'm not trying to change your beliefs. Why would I? I'm sure they're totally unchangeable. I don't think trying to change people's beliefs is very constructive, whether those beliefs have to do with God or the Tooth Fairy, with unalienable rights like freedom and equality or the tyranny of the majority. So you've said how you feel and I've said how I feel. So what's the problem?
We agree that double standards in this situation are a bad idea. If the schools are going to have celebrations involving Xmas, Halloween, Easter, St. Valentine's Day, St. Patrick's Day, and other Christian holidays, then I think it's cool if they include some celebrations involving non-Christian holidays as well. I'm sure there are more than enough to go around.
From what I understand (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), the schools are only allowing secularized versions of these holiday celebrations, so I don't see why they'd limit them to secularized version of Christian holidays only. If they're going to refuse to allow celebrations involving certain holidays, like they did at one school with Ramadan, then that looks like a double standard too.
But as I said in my earlier comment, I think the best solution might be to just get rid of all the holiday-related celebrations at school. I know that kind of sucks for the kids, but as much as they might enjoy celebrating a different holiday every couple of days, I think they'd be better off spending more time doing actual school work.
To increase the fun factor a little, they can have a few celebrations that have nothing to do with any holidays. It's not like most kids need much of an excuse to party and have fun, is it?
Anybody care to guess who wrote that comment?
I'm glad you feel that way, & respecting my feelings on this issue. I can agree w/ you on what you said. Although it's truly sad that taking traditional holidays away b/c of whiner's, attention craving, sue happy folk, you're right, the kids could still have little celebration moments w/ parties etc. w/o being based on ones religion, that's why there is church.
Now let me guess...was it Wil who said that?
Don't be too hard on Tim. He just speaks his mind truthfully. BTW I tend to agree...you are one ugly mutha!