It Isn't The Illegal Immigrants Who Do Not Pay Their Taxes

So, you are saying that many illegal immigrants working in the US are actually subsidizing US citizens who do not pay taxes.

My point was that it not rational to continully bring up the issue of taxes in the heated debate over illegal immigration. Especially , when there many so called legal and true Americans who do not pay their fare share.

Point taken

Dancing with my Dream (Vote Round Two)"

I'm in agreement with you. I see no reason to drag in issues which actually do not bear on the real issue of illegal immigration. When all the smoke clears they are still here illegally. Taxes, politics, nothing in reality has a real effect on the issue other than they are hear illegally and it needs to stop.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Spencer, you are 100 percent correct.

Not all criminal invaders pay taxes. Many of them work at jobs where they are being paid in cash, no records are kept and no SSNs are required - fake or otherwise.

So to be correct. Some criminal invaders - already criminals by crossing the border illegally or overstaying their visas - are committing yet another crime by providing a SSN that does not belong to them and paying taxes under that SSN.

Wow - that makes me feel really badly that they are slandered by those who do not acknowledge that a small number of criminal invaders are paying taxes.

On the other hand, even as they pay taxes, they are using government services to which they are not entitled and costing legitimate taxpayers more money than is being gained by their payroll deductions. I seriously doubt that more than a very, very small number actually provides a positive cash flow for the government.

It is nice of you to point this out but your comments still don't resolve any issues regarding criminal invaders bleeding the taxpayer dry.

Naci, my concern is the hypocrisy that accompanies many of issues brought up when debating the problems associated with illegal immigration. There is no denying that illegal immigrants cost society a great deal, but to justly attribute all the woes of our country to the influx of illegal immigrants, without taking into consideration the affect that a certain percentage of American Citizens add to the problems is shortsighted on our part.

You said, "Illegal immigrants that work for legitimate companies still have S.S. and Federal Taxes withheld and in most instances they are never paid out to the illegal worker who is many times too afraid to file."

Yes, but... When the SS# an illegal immigrant uses actually belongs to someone else - someone still alive - which happens - then there are problems. I read about a woman not long ago who was in trouble because earnings showed up on her SS account. She was disabled and only allowed to earn a certain amount in income without jeopardizing her disability.

Lera is right. Two wrongs don't make a right. And they can actually be disasterous for the person whose number is being used.

You're right, though. Legal Americans should pay taxes that they owe.

Frankly, I'm under the impression that it's a non-issue. I think there are a lot more important things to be worrying about.

I work with many people who may or may not be illegal immigrants. And yes, they do pay their taxes, cuz I do their payroll.
Now that is not to say that they don't know how to play the system like many others & "claim" 7,8,9 on their taxes.....and have none taken out. But really, I know plenty of Americans who do the same.

How does someone with a stolen SS card or a forged SS card get a legitimate job? Nothing legitimate about impersonating someone else and getting that other person in trouble with IRS. I have to wonder how many "delequent" taxpayers are delequent because income some some illegal got is reported to the IRS.

I'm in agreement with you

I say, close the border and give citizenship to any illegals already working here, unless they have a criminal background. If they have a criminal background, send them back home. That way they can pay their taxes like the rest of us and can continue the life they have built for themselves and their families as citizens of the USA. They will gladly pay taxes!

Having lived in an "illegal" Mexican culture, I can't imagine not forming those friendships, seeing those children grow healthy and strong and loving America, not to mention the fabulous food I learned to cook. I also shudder at the thought of them being forced out and into life "third world" style.

Other than the tax question addressed here in this article, I wish people would also understand that the majority of those that cross are family orientated individuals that want to work, and do work hard to make a living.

The stereo type that all of them are welfare living, lazy, drunk, drug dealers is just stupid. The majority are great people from a wonderful culture. They would love to stay within their own country but they don't want to watch their children starve.
So they come here, the land of opportunity eh?
Would you do any less to save your child? Didn't some of your ancestors do the same? Other than the Native Americans, we all came here from some where else.

To bad so sad for the ones wanting to cross in the future, the reality is that it has to stop. The American teat is tired of being chewed on, we're sore and in a bad mood. Send bag balm. Thanks.

Sorry, it doesn't wash. I know of Mexicans that worked but claimed more dependents then they had. So they did not pay much in and did not file as they owe taxes.
I prepared their tax for them and handed it to them. It wasn't long before they quit. They had papers, maybe stolen. I don't know.

It is funny how, some of the more vocal individuals on the illegal immigration issue, always seem to say " I know of these illegal immigrants, who did this or that", or "I know this illegal family, who broke this law or that" and yet despite their strong furor on the issue, they never say "so I called ICE and turned them in."

Now knowing how strongly they feel about illegal immigrants, I always wonder why they did not make a call to the proper authorities with their proof and knowledge, and their brave acts of uncovering these illegal aliens and their criminal activities.

Juan I dont know very many illegals that work for legitimate companies. They are in fact here against the law and so far anyway it is illegal for companies to hire them. So unless they are working under someone elses SSN (which BTW is identity theft) then they work for shady companies and dont pay social security tax nor federal taxes they do however pay sales tax and property tax if they own a home.

First of all, I am not denying or defending the crimes committed by the illegal population in the U.S., nor am I denying or defending that some illegal immigrants commit other crimes in addition to their initial criminal act of being in the U.S. without proper documentation.
My argument, is that to bring issues such as the non paying of taxes as a reason to justify the animosity directed towards them is a little hypocritical, especially brining to light the fact that are legal and so called real Americans, who do not pay their fare amount and actually defraud the government on a far bigger scale that illegal immigrants ever will. I site another example of tax fraud committed by legal American citizens.

When it comes to tax cheats, the government has always been vocal about prosecuting the little guy but chooses not to spotlight the big time frauds, like the tax fraud committed by long time and huge contributor of the Bush Administrator Sam Wyly.
While the government targets the little guys, the poor and lower middle class, they consioulys fail to agressivly target big-time tax cheats whose fraud was much greater, but who happen to be top-tier Republican contributors. Example, financier Sam Wyly cheated the U.S. of at least $300 million in taxes.

Again I can see, why the issue of taxes is simily always brought up in the issue of illegal immigration. Perhaps it is my Libra nature coming out, but I have always been the believer, that it is unjust to vent your anger against someone over certain actions they committed when you do not have clean hands yourself.

Lori, how many illegal immigrants do you know and why have you not done your duty and have them arrested and deported? Knowing your animosity towards Mexican illegals, I would assume you would have ICE on speed dial and call them any and every time you see some Hispanic you suspect of being an illegal alien.

I for one, know many immigrants who work for LEGAL companies, and do not use a social security number. They use a tax id number which is absolutely legal. AND they file taxes every year using their W2s which have their OWN tax id number on it. Sorry, but not all workers are stealing SS numbers in order to work in this country.

I once saw a news segment and profile, on an independent news channel, of an illegal immigrant and the business he created and ran in NYC. The small businessman and his family ran a small flower shop in NYC. The business had all the proper licenses and permits as well as a Tax ID number and resellers permit. The illegal immigrant paid all of his business and personal taxes and all of his bills.

This made got me to believe that certain anti illegal immigrations advocates, do not have the full story or choose to turn a blind eyes to those facts that contradict their own stance on the issue.

Juan how many illegals do I know? Plenty. I live in the heart of Iowa. We have raids by INS all the time...in fact just had one 2 weeks ago.

I can live without your snarky attitude.

Leticia this was to ILLEGAL immigrants...you may want to READ the article before commenting on it.

Lori, you still did not answer my question. If you know all these illegal immigrants, why do you do have them deported or sic ICE on them?

So you personaly know for a fact all these Hispanics living in your area are here in the U.S. illegaly?

Juan have you ever tried to call ICE? Well of course YOU havent but they dont listen

Juan that was part of my point....I dont know that they are all here illegally...its not like they have a sign. But I do know that the majority are....there are raids around here all the time....last time they picked up 200.

BTW Juan you are the one that keeps specifing Mexicans....I oppose ALL ILLEGALS.

"Well of course YOU havent but they dont listen"

Lori, on what do you make this assumption?
Is it because of your perceived notions about my views on illegal immigration or because of me being Hispanic . that some how I would naturally be prone to give illegal immigrants a passing or perhaps you might even think I am an illegal?

Lori, please don't make assumptions. I was talking about undocumented workers. I did read the article. I wouldn't comment on it without having read it.

Juan it has nothing to do with you being hispanic rather your support of these criminals...would you be so supportive if someone broke into your house and robbed it because they had to feed their kids.

Leticia you cant have it both ways....undocumented workers dont have documents and are here illegally. You were talking about people that have some kind of documentation. As I stated before READ the article before you comment.

I did bookkeeping for a construction firm that hired illegals. I quit the job when I realized this. We took out taxes and paid the government. Needless to say, these illegals did not file to get their refunds. So, that tax money was kept by the IRS and put into the coffers of the federal government. So, it is not entirely inaccurate to say that illegals pay taxes. Many of them do. Like Nanci said, however, some are paid in cash and do not pay taxes.

I think that it is legitimate to say that those who don't want Bush's guest worker program have a problem with hispanics.

Well, Lori, I guess you want to have the last word, but I can not and will not log off tonight without saying it one last time. Doesn't matter, whether you call people undocumented or illegal - either way, they still are able to use tax id numbers instead of stolen social security numbers in order to work and file taxes. That was the only point I was making. You can work with just a tax id number and not a social security number. As a matter of fact, you can do a lot of things in this country with just a tax id number. I'm not saying I agree with their ability to do this. I'm just saying that a lot of illegal immigrants do it. I don't agree with everything you have said about "illegal immigrants" but I do respect your right to say it and to have a place here on gather to say it. And I do agree with you that this country does need to set limits and boundaries, especially for the protection of American citizens. I would never argue against that. But don't tell me to READ an article before I comment. My comment was directed at the specific issue addressed in the article and in the comments made by other gather members.

you got my 10 Juan

Nicely written Juan. It seems to be a given to me that a large population of undocumented workers (estimates now reach 20 million people with 3,000 more added each and every day) will have many of the characteristics of society in general.

What can this mean?

It means they will have peaceful, law-abiding citizens. (I know, they're illegal, but other than that . . . ) It means they will have drunks and burglars . . . killers and lovers . . . the hopeful and the hopeless. A microcosm of our own 'documented' population.

Some will pay taxes, some will cheat, some will do whatever some choose to do. (and you know this is true even though you DON'T know whether I'm talking about citizens or immigrants). So . . . while it may be true that we make a profit off the presence of undocumented workers due to tax income (and we do - overall) it doesn't make a difference to the situation. It's also true that overloaded medical facilities are being closed . . . but it doesn't make a difference to the situation (privatized medical care is dooming them all sooner or later anyway) . . . I don't need to hear a horror story about how two illegal immigrants raped and murderd some lady . . . . it makes no difference (I'm guessing being raped and murdered by American citizens wouldn't make it any easier) . . . .

We have here an issue brought on by big business and fostered by the government that it hired . . . yes . . . HIRED. Government works for business, not for us. They can stop this but won't. There are no easy answers . . . but you made a great point Juan . . . it's time to stop pointing out they're criminals . . . we know this. Very few in this country have spent crime free lives . . . speeding is a crime too. The question is what to do about it. Nothing productive comes from inciting hatred. More important than what should be done is what CAN be done . . . there are people literally arguing NONSENSE that can never be done. ...And who on either side of this issue honestly believes a 300 mile fence on our 2,000 mile border is an answer? I don't think ANYONE does . . . and maybe . . . JUST maybe . . . that's why the government agreed to build it.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

Spare me Doyle.

I dont care how "decent" these people are the fact of the matter is they broke the law by coming here the way they did.

" Spare me Doyle. "
Spare you what? The truth? Live with it.

"I dont care how "decent" these people are the fact of the matter is they broke the law by coming here the way they did. "
I don't recall saying otherwise. I broke the law driving home. Your point? MY point was these are people . . . 20 million of them. It does NO good pointing to one who committed a burglary. There's always another that saved a life or something. The details of the activities of any few of them should not be part of the debate on how to deal with them. THAT was my point. Nothing more.

I've said before and I'll say again . . . stiff fines and mandatory jail time for hiring them and the problem solves itself.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

of course they obey all the laws right? and if they don't...so what, just point out someone else is doing it, two wrongs make a right.

My point is that you cannot denounce a whole group of people without dissecting and taking each as individuals. It is delusional to say every illegal immigrant, apart from his or her initial criminal act of being in the country without proper documentation, is a scourge to society.

My example of the billions in taxes being owed by so called real Americans can attest to that. The mass murders committed by American serial killers, the school shootings committed by U.S. Teenagers can easily overshadow the so-called atrocities attributed to illegal immigrants.

Yes there are plenty of murders, rapes, robberies and other crimes that can be attributed to the influx of illegal immigrants. But so can be said about American society. In other words, stick to the issues. The real issue is money and privilege. Those that have it, wish to keep it from those that seek it. To me that is the crux of the issue

Juan, You might want to get up to speed in the real World;
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
This IS what the issues are about.