Over the last few days, appeals from people to “come read” their contest entries, contest entries of their friends and family, and even contest entries of total strangers hit my mailbox and my monitored groups. You might have seen the snarky article I published to let off steam. You didn’t see what I did behind the scenes.
In response to some of those appeals, I sent links to my work. To some, I said I would honor their requests after they had read my work. I told others I wanted to let them know where to find me, since we weren’t connected and I didn’t remember seeing them before.
I will not pretend that the solicitations don’t annoy me. They do. I feel the same when someone I know well sends one. I will apologize for transferring a year’s worth of frustration and disappointment onto people who might have been directed to send out these solicitation letters, and who might not have known how much they annoy many of us – and why.
Jenny B. and Stephen P. followed the links I sent. They read my articles, left kind comments, and sent messages to let me know they enjoyed my work. When I say this time that I have met some kind people on Gather, I say it without snark. I am grateful to Jenny and Stephen. I respect and appreciate their kindness.
I offer the following explanation to the two of you, not as an excuse. I want you (and everyone else who received links to my articles and rejections from my groups) to know the history behind my short fuse, hurt feelings, frustration, and whatever else was involved. I also hope the explanation will make you know how rewarding my experience with you has been.
I joined Gather when it was promoted as a site for writers, hoping to share experiences and learn from other writers. I connected--not in the Gather definition of clicking on a name—with talented writers who inspired, motivated, entertained, and taught me. We wrote and communicated for months, and enjoyed watching this site grow.
Then came the money and gift cards. Without telling us they had made a u-turn somewhere along the drive, Gather invited members who were not interested in writing. We responded to those people with what other writers expect and want – honest critique and feedback.
They thought we were mean; we thought they were sloppy.
THEY told us if we didn’t consider a link to free panty hose an article, and if we expected them to care about spelling and punctuation, WE could just leave. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best work we’ve seen, THEY told us we had no right to assign a one-star rating to their one-line articles with errors. If we did, they believed we deserved the same one-star rating on our thousand-word essays, stories, and articles.
I hope, when the two of you looked at my work tonight, you noticed the ratings. Much of my work is rated between 4 and 7 and was buried alive, while “List a name that starts with the letter ‘S’” gets a ten star rating, hundreds of comments, and sits on the top of the highest rated and most viewed lists today.
Gather did not take a stand for the writers who came early and helped build this site. They sat back and watched us battle – and it got ugly. The most talented writers walked away. It was obvious Gather was not going in the right direction and they didn’t want the abuse that other members were dishing out.
Then, after they had ignored writers and allowed the hatefulness to run off good writers, Gather decided to have a writing contest to bring in new writers. I resented that, especially for the writers these people were to replace.
The contest was for non-published authors. That ruled out those of us who were consistent in our claims. For example, I am ‘published’ every day. However, there were others who had bragged about being published, (one who had even asked for links to my published work so she could tell everyone her published status was better than mine), who suddenly became unpublished and joined that contest.
I probably don’t need to tell you that these people connected to all of the non-writing members and did not stand up for writers because it would have damaged their popularity. They bombarded my mailbox with requests to read and rate their entries.
I have been here through several rotations now. The writers who came in with that contest soon learned that Gather was not the writing site they thought it would be and left. Then another contest and new writers . . . I’ve lost count.
A handful of the writers who came in with each contest tried to fight the same losing battle. I felt sad for them, but jumped back in to support them each time, because I understood and I knew the history. More mass mailings hit the box, not only about contests but to “draw up battle sides”. For the record, I have never sent a mailing to all my connections, much less everyone on Gather. A couple of times, I received mass mailings from people telling thousands of others what a horrible person I am and asking me to report myself to Gather so they would get rid of me. My daughters and friends received them as well.
Mass mailings are a sore spot. I hope you understand.
No matter how many times people tell me to “get over it” or “accept the changes,” my principles remain the same – always and everywhere. If 30,000 Gather members want to pretend it doesn’t matter if they publish to the wrong groups, I will still believe it matters. If all of Gather or even the rest of the world think it is respectable to get as much as possible for nothing, I will never agree. I monitor my groups, and I can promise the members of those groups that I will do everything I can to make sure they see what they expect when they click on my groups.
This week, I spent hours of my time sorting out contest promotions that did not belong in my groups, because people think it doesn’t matter.
I apologize for taking out my frustrations on you, especially if you were advised to promote your work through groups and private messages. You were caught in the middle of a long-term battle and it is not fair to you. I appreciate both of you, very much, for reaching out to me and for being bigger people than I was in this situation.
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Comments: 55
There are people here that are willing to be fair and are here to read and share their work. I'm glad you found a couple of them, or that they found you!
You will all have to bring your own milk, though.
Some of the more ethically-challenged of this site have at times engaged in very nasty 'black ops'. The targets of their nastiness have been members who:
-respond to requests for critique with thoughtful, professional editing advice;
-use the 1-10 rating system in a sensible manner, aimed at promoting the highest quality content to the Most Popular search listings;
-ask questions when blatant lies and personal attacks are published to the public;
-remove articles from the groups they own when those articles have nothing to do with the groups' purposes;
-write high quality content which draws attention away from the mindless drivel;
I could go on, but I won't.
The targets of those 'black ops' were restricted in their means of dealing with it by the unwillingness to abandon their ethics. Most of them chose to leave Gather rather than face constant harassment. Today's Gather is what it is in part because many of those who were willing to work for something better are no longer here.
I'm grateful for this article because it shows that some of the newer members coming in to Gather are bringing their own sense of fairness with them. It's easy to take a look around and conclude that what you see other people doing is the accepted status quo. Gather really gives the overwhelming appearance of an 'anything goes/something-for-nothing' site. It must be incredibly tempting to newer members to just dive in and do whatever pays the most Gather Points, without concern for contributing something of value to the community.
Jenny and Stephen are lucky. Most members will never encounter Sandy's contributions to Gather. A good portion of it has been buried by members who use the "report this as potentially inappropriate" feature to punish people they don't agree with or simply don't like. More of her writing has been buried by members who give one-star ratings for the same reasons. Sandy isn't the only good writer on Gather, but she's pretty damned good.
I know that I do not profess to be a "writer" in any sense of the imagination but do believe that there is a place for beginners such as myself for an outlet to learn and be judged honestly about my content and not of me.
Thanks.
Of course there is a place for beginning writers. I guess the confusion is that some of these people believe that literally means beginning to learn how to write and so keep practicing their ABCs over and over and, worse, feel justified in expecting to get paid for it!
It does matter. Why do they think groups exist? I sort through enough stuff I don't want to get to the stuff I do want already in real life.
Shortly after joining, I wrote my first article: a now-seemingly silly review of an attraction I had visited with my family in St. Louis.
My aspirations to be a writer had long been killed under the crushing weight of being "practical" and "reasonable" about earning a living.
However, my interest in the craft of writing re-ignited when I woke up from a vivid realistic dream about a conversation I had with my long-deceased grandmother.
With the sleep crust still in my eyes, and the smell of her coffee and cigarettes still in my nose, I sat down at Gather and wrote a short essay, my first in many many years.
I was surprised and shocked at the support I received from other early Gatherites. Unlike the robotic adulation sprayed indiscriminately at some pedantic work today, these Gatherers provided counsel, support and constructive criticism.
With this encouragement, I continued to write. Sometimes essays, sometimes fiction. As Sandy points out, the paradigm shifted at some point, and a community of people with vast interests, but a shared passion for writing, became a group of point whores. Even during the elections, when passions were high, and the stakes even higher, the WRITERS at Gather debated using their craft, and not the indiscriminate use of point ratings as revenge.
Today, despite the presence of some incredible talent (most of whom are unsung, unread and unloved), Gather is primarily a place for people to kill time cutting and pasting jokes they've recieved, playing games that elicit comments to earn points, writing one line articles with a link to a blog entry, etc. etc.
I grieve for the old Gather and I miss my old friends, but I'm grateful that Sandy, one of my oldest Gather friends, continues to think, write and publish against this adversity.
Perhaps the beauty of Gather as it is now is that it is more like the community at large. There are people who are serious about writing, and those who don't really care about grammar and spelling. There are those who just want to share pictures or videos. And there are those who just want to read. I understand how/why you have to spend hours sorting through things that just don't apply to your groups.
Each time I post, I think it would be so much easier if there was a small description/reminder of what each group is beside its name. Sometimes I DO forget which group is which. Either that or on the page where we are publishing, perhaps those groups could be categorized right on the page - writing groups, points groups, etc.
I got active too late to think about this latest first chapter contest. But I did wonder about it. I thought I had read that it was for unpublished authors, but I know of at least two whom I have met at other sites who are, indeed, published authors. Strange.
Sadly, as sites all over the internet change, the owners/originators do not think to keep the first members in the loop about changes. It happens everywhere. Most of us don't really hate change as much as we don't like surprises.
Marilyn, if these people actually have been professionally published, and that's against the contest rules, please turn them in to Gather AND the corporate sponsors with proof.
Well said.
That chance still exists for those who are willing to search through the games and drivel to find the few writers who are still around and willing to risk attack by the masses if they offer help. A sad fact is that this site is also dangerous –extremely dangerous—for a beginning writer who has not studied. Some or the most popular (in terms of how many fans they have accrued) writers on this site are terrible writers who do not accept suggestions or corrections. They have hordes or followers who tell them everything they write is wonderful. I am sad for the new writers who see this and "learn" from them and their unknowing or uncaring fans.
I tried to cover this in as little space as possible. Some people have read/heard my grievances so many times that I know they've lost patience. A couple of things I stopped repeating because, no matter how many times or how many ways I said them, others continued to spread the opposite (through groups and private messages), so it seemed pointless. I want you to know that I do not think my writing is even near the best we've seen on this site, and I don't expect everyone who writes on a writing site to be a great writer. I think anyone who "publishes" anywhere should care enough to give that work their best effort and to welcome critique (not a dirty word) from others. If everyone in a forum is willing to accept and discuss suggestions in the comment section, we can all learn together. The discussion is the important part.
Time Heals covered more of what I gave up repeating after so many times. Thanks TH. Ugly doesn't begin to describe what happened, and still would if some of us were to return to publishing work we care about – which backs up TH's bold font statement.
Joanne reminds me that it is important for me to explain to my new friends that I am full of snark and meanness. I thrive on humor, love sarcasm and satire, tackle anything that comes up head-on, and do not apologize for anything unless I think I have been unfair.
Esther said I didn't realize that one had to be a self professed example of a writer in order to be here on Gather. Thank goodness! The self-professed examples of writers are the most annoying. Anyone who can write, does, and doesn't need to profess so I advise you to run fast when you see those who self-profess. The best place for a beginner to be is mixed in with those who are willing to read what you write and offer suggestions, not with those who sit on their own threads professing they are great and offering nothing in return.
X Tabber, you are going to ruin my bad reputation. Thank you, for being you and for remembering what I do. I am working on an essay about what really happened then, not from this historical, bitter look at the events. I am trying to capture what really happened to make that time special enough that some of us still 'feel' it today.
Marilyn, thanks for the perspective of one who has frequented and worked with other writing sites. I have done the same - watched and participated in many from inception. I've seen what worked and what didn't. I thought this had the potential to be the one that worked. I did all I could from this side, and then offered Gather the benefit of my experience, which they did not want. Others in this thread thanked me for sticking out the battle. The truth is I gave up in January. Since then, I have worked with a group to design a writing site – for writers, not gamers. It's a race now. If Gather doesn't clean up before our place is ready, I will offer an option to writers who are tired of tripping over gamers to find one another.
Donna, that handful of others is what keeps me coming back. Sadly, if I didn't know I would find you guys, I would not devote the time necessary to find the newer members whose work I would enjoy.
Thanks, everyone.
At least I was when I went to bed last night; I haven't checked my ID yet this morning.
:-)
Thanks for writing this Sandy. I did send out a mass email yesterday -- and here's why:
Bear with me, as it's a bit of a story...I joined this site in Feb (due to the First Chapters contest). My entry, Dream War, was voted as a Top Five (out of, yes by now you know, over 2,600 novels). The opportunity to be a published novelist is a HUGE one...yet Gather members were not only apathetic about voting in the contest, some were even mean about being asked to vote.
"I thought this was a website for writers?" I asked. "Writers who won't support other writers? Writers who don't care that someone is going to win a publishing contract???"
Little did I know of the problems with the website, or problems with the contests prior to my arrival. The email yesterday, however was a review I was asked by Gather to write for the runner up to the contest, Fire Bell in the Night. It was to promote HIS now-published work!
I sent it to all those in my addressbook that I'd interacted with during my 8 months here at Gather -- I won't apologize for it -- but I can see how people might be upset. I do ask that you all keep an open mind. I've met some great people on this site...mostly due to them sending me an email to read their work....or them randomly commenting on my own work.
This site is what we make of it. We can use it to divide and spread anger, or we can join together and support each other. Two people, Terry Shaw and Geoffrey Edwards, are now published novelists thanks to this site's contest. Gather is now running a genre specific contest where they have ironed out many of the bugs of the first contest. Another PUBLISHED AUTHOR is about to be chosen from amongst us....BY us. Or we can chose to be apathetic again and merely have the authors with the most outside friends and family chose the top 5. I encourage all of you to join me in helping review the work of others here on this site. Together we can make a difference.
Peace.
If you read my article and the comments, I am disappointed in you for the suggestion that I or the others who commented on this thread are apathetic. I resent the feeling that came over me when I read "this site is what we make of it."
You know, I would not pimp your work if I weren't envious of your talent, and if I didn't know they people I recommend you to would enjoy it as much as I do. When I recommend your work, I believe I am offering a gift. (But I draw the line as mass mailings.)
I think it's a shame that some people think of Gather as a gift card spigot with a handle they can control. Whenever there's easy money people line up to get it, even if the amounts are minuscule.
I agree about the contests: I wish everyone well, but there's no point. A writing contest has qualified and impartial judges, not free-for-all internet voting.
You absolutely got a 10 from me. I read every single word, something that I'm not so sure those people who write "thanks for sharing" - or something in that vein- actually do (just a hunch).
I feel a little guilty that I gave you a ten because I 'm now wondering if I should feel honored for having an 8.5 on my latest article and if giving a 10 isn't a demerit in some twisted way. The 8.5 was for my article about comments (which I wouldn't have published if I knew there was already a group here which focused on comments). Even if it was a failure as an article topic, it was a stab at getting people to try and post something creative about comments, perhaps even a story told only in comments or even a poem, without rhyme. I left it as open-ended as I could imagine. Some people didn't like that, I guess.
I'm so new that I am still figuring out how I feel about the points system, partially because I don't have the benefit of having been here "before" and so I don't know anything but "after", leading me to believe this site was somehow different at one time. I'm trying to go back and read messages and threads but it is taking some time to get up to speed. I don't have a sense of what the quality was but I can tell from the strong reactions from you and others that it was on a higher level - or perceived as such (not having been here, I don't know). I'll take your word for it.
Also, some of your crucial posts - as well as others who've been here awhile - seem to have been deleted so I can't get a whole picture, historically speaking. I don't consider myself a professional writer, which doesn't mean I haven't been published in some national and rather well-known magazines. I am now aiming for the literary magazines I truly love because it is pretty simple to get accepted into the mass magazine club. Learn the formula, write coherent sentences, keep it tight. I'm sure you know the drill. At one time, I really had to care about the payments at those "popular" magazines because we needed the income and I wanted to stay home and not work regular 9-5 hours. Researching nonfiction articles, fact checking and getting a coherent piece isn't as easy as it may seem to some. Fiction is my challenge. Nonfiction is easier.
I don't think of Gather as a place to get easy points or prizes, even for those who are point whoring. It is far easier to earn more money and merchandise elsewhere, including off line. But once you throw prizes into the mix at any site, you'll get people who are competitive, even if they don't really need the money or prizes. They just want to see how quickly they can get those points or compare themselves to others and they don't see that the points system seems to have checks and balances in it, slowing down once someone gets closer to 3000 points (not that I'd know, tending to cash mine in as soon as I hit 625 points or so).
My dilemna? I have found some wonderful people who only contribute to the places where "mindless drivel" as defined by you and others is the norm , including some of the game sites. Even some of the Point whoring threads have had some fascinating information lately and people I enjoy. One spurred me to locate a link to some genealogical information. This information opened up a dead end in an adoptive child's family history, helping us locate the birthfamily. I had no idea that information was out there and I'm no slouch when it comes to research.
I like all sorts of people and have learned as much from the school janitor as the noted academic. The janitor had more common sense and a dry sense of humor that I appreciated. So how do I mix with all sorts of people without commenting on threads that wouldn't appeal to many here? As in my off line life, some seemingly shallow people have depths that surprise me and I find them in the most unexpected places at Gather.
I wrote this in a spirit of open dialogue and am eager for your response. I am also honored that you took the time to comment on my "comments" article.
I've been aware of point whore culture on Gather, but I've never seen any reason why it should bother me. My friends look at my stuff and comment if it is worth commenting on. I get an adequate number of points, and it doesn't bother me if someone else gets more. I never look at the top ranked article business, so it has no impact on me whether it is filled with masterpieces or junk.
I would love to get to know more serious, talented Gather writers, and I don't care if they joined Gather in 2005 or yesterday. Why should I? Talent is talent whenever the person joined. I'm sure that epic battles were fought and huge injustices perpetrated many months or years ago, but I'm also sure that I didn't come to Gather to participate in any of that, and would very much prefer to avoid it.
As to sending out invites to read. I did a bunch of that during the Romance contest, though I never did a mass mailing, and I generally tried very hard to avoid asking the same person twice. I'm going to try my best to at least look for something interesting to comment on for every person I asked to look at my stuff, whether or not they responded. That's going to be quite a task, but I've already done quite a bit of it, and I will try to finish up in next week or two.
If the old struggles we stepped into were between writers and point whores, the writers should be aware that point whores were out in force toward the end of this round of the Romance contest, leaving lots of 10s and one line comments signifying nothing for the contestants willing to play that game. There were also thoughtful critiques, but we could have used a lot more of them. If the writers sit on their hands, who chooses the winners of these contests? Well, you know the answer to that. I'm not sure how that furthers making Gather the kind of writing community you want it to be.
I don't ever profess to be a writer but I do find it easier to communicate in the written word over the spoken...not necessarily a good thing as I tend to get rather verbose in my comments here :>)
I also, am getting royally fed up with the mass emails, some for the second or third time, from people who's stories I've already read and commented on as well as those I haven't read yet, most "requesting" (some demanding) I rate their offering a '10' as "only 10's count in the judging".
I've started just deleting them now as I have no intention of giving in to their demands. I love to read but it shouldn't be a painful process and, in my amateur opinion, some of what I've been asked to read is pure drivel and sometimes down right embarrassing! Not in the subject matter or explicit language but in the poor spelling and lack of editing present in many of these 'entries'... Deja vu all over again;>)! If you can't figure out how to use spell check get some one to help you with it!
*( See what I mean about being overly verbose ;>D )*
There are several people on this site who's articles I look forward to reading... even their spoof 'game' articles, as they tend to be a bit more thought provoking and spur me on to really thinking about my comments on some of them. Sometimes I don't feel I can aspire to the level of wit displayed in their comment threads and have to work harder to come up with what I consider a worthy comment to add to the pot as it were. now I just need to learn brevity!
I don't think the very existence of game articles and chat articles is any threat to Gather's potential as a site for creativity and quality. What I do see as a threat to Gather's potential is the sheer number of those articles. People who like to visit the games once in a while, as one facet of their activities on Gather, are not hurting Gather at all. In fact, they're demonstrating a fairly balanced approach to Gather.
There are members who do nothing but post and participate in games and chats. There are A LOT of them. 10-20 one-line articles and 100 or more short comments posted only to the same kind of articles is a pretty typical day for the kind of members I'm referring to. The result of all that is the heavy watering down of Gather's content on the whole. That creates a very frustrating state of affairs for anyone who wants to put their best efforts out there for the community to discuss, critique and enjoy. You don't get much feedback when you're hollering from the bottom of a well.
Gather practically begged the one-liners to come here. By advertising on and partnering with freebie sites in order to increase Gather's membership, they played a key role in creating this mess.
Remember, too, that it isn't the shortness and effortlessness of those game and chat articles which makes them attractive and fun*. Putting some effort into them wouldn't detract from the qualities which make them popular.
*On the other hand, some people refuse to take the time to read anything longer than two sentences. That's because you can rack up the Gather Points a lot more quickly if you read only the shortest articles, and leave only short comments. When amassing points is the primary motivator, the activities which generate those points has to be as effortless as possible.
Lots of people like the points rewards, as well they should. That isn't a problem. If I could ever collect enough of them to be worth anything, you can bet I'd spend that cash in a heartbeat. The people who like the points a whole lot more than they like anything else about Gather are a big problem. In order to make a tidy profit without a huge investment, they have to flood the place with 'activity', and that activity has to be meaningless. It doesn't take a whole lot of that type of person, and that type of activity, to create a daily mountain of crap for everyone else to wade through.
Sandy, I'm sorry you don't like what I wrote. That's your choice; your feelings and your resentments are your own. It still does not change the fact that the gather community IS decidedly apathetic regarding contests that create published novelists.
I'd welcome any evidence to the contrary, however there is none. When gather claims to have hundreds of thousands of members, but the vote ranges on contest entries varies from 400 (for people who bring their outside friends here to give them 10's) down to 20 -- what else could it be called? Apathy.
I'm not saying it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but it is what it is. Hopefully my comments will awaken something in people to help foster a change. If not. No skin off my nose, I don't plan on entering any more writing contests.
The Gather claim of having 200,000 members is crap. That's how many accounts have been created since the site went public, minus the ones that have been deleted (which only Gather can do). In reality, there are no more than a few hundred active members, and a few hundred more semi-active ones.
Regardless, the number continues to grow -- each First Chapters Contest alone brings in thousands of "members" and at least a hundred or so active members. The responsibility to "birth" new novelists isn't one that gather members should be taking as lightly as they are -- in my opinion.
I'm off for a trip. I hope everyone has a nice weekend.
Dale, do you know how many of those contacts connected only because they are looking for someone to add "so" to the "List a word that begins with the letter S" game? How many were people just hoping for another vote in the contest? How many are unique identities?
Welcome to the club!
When participating in the writing contests, many of the Gather identities one will encounter are actually alters created for the purpose of 'selling' someone's entry. You can fake the voice of reason and authority as long as you want to. Unless you've been here and seen it happen a dozen times, you're not going to be taken seriously by those who have.
Time: "faking the voice of reason"? I'm not sure if that's referring to me, but if it is the statement is hardly likely to convince me of anything. I'm discussing an issue of fact in a civil and factual manner. If you would rather not, I'll walk away. As to many of the Gather identities in a contest being 'alters', (a) I've been through the original First Chapters contest, which means I've been there and seen that. (b) I looked at a sample of the contestant's 'friends', and 80-90% of them joined Gather long before her, and are thus unlikely to be identities created by her. Now we could come up with some convoluted and unlikely theories by which she planted identities months and years before the contest was announced, but I'm afraid I'd have to see some evidence of that before I would take it seriously.
I think you are referring to a sample of one contestant's connections, which hardly seems like a sufficient study. However, for the purposes of this discussion I don't think it matters. Some members who have been here the longest will connect to ANYONE - and I do mean anyone. Once, a man joined Gather, published nothing but disgusting crotch shots of himself (I'm not a prude, these were seriously unattractive by every possible criterion - poor photography, tacky captions, etc.), and sent connection requests to everyone on the site. Within a day or two, he had twice as many connections as many of us who had been here a year. I could list for you at least twenty identities that were created for no purpose other than to harass me. (Others have had the same experience but I speak only for me here). They published NOTHING. Their only comments were nasty snipes at me. Of course, they knew things about me that no one could guess or learn on their first day here. They also amassed long lists of connections overnight.
A person would not have to be party to the convoluted theory to benefit from it. There is a 'good ole boy/girl' system already in place where those who benefit the most from having thousands of connections watch out for others. I am not implying that this happened with the one person in your study. I toss this out to explain the experienced voice of the problem with contests, numbers, and honesty on this site.
There are those who are real and the fakes,
the honest and the cheats,
the manipulators, vengeful,,
and the truthful, forgiving,
enlightened .....on a path of creating a world with each act, thought penned and words...may we all grow and expand our consciousness, may the light of reason, generosity and desire to build eachother up rather than tearing down grow deep roots in our heart.
We are intrinsically and intentionally connected and we have all a great opportunity to share our talents in what ever degree we possess, but first our selfcenteredness and greed must be put aside...only then the best in each and all will come to light.
I've been active continuously since then using the same ID. As of the end of May I had published over 50 substantial articles on Gather. I've slowed down since then, but still publish quite a bit.
I've found that a lot of these chains go back and forth with people argumentatively saying the same thing in different ways. Before we go on let's see if we actually disagree on anything substantial. Here's what I think you're saying:
1) The site has a substantial number of 'point whores'. Agreed.
2) The site has witnessed bitter struggles between 'point whores' and people who would like it to be a more serious writing site. I wasn't here so I'll have to take your word for it. Sounds logical.
3) People have created alter egos for various nefarious purposes. I can't prove that beyond any doubt, but some things that happened in the First Chapters contest are difficult to explain in any other way, so you if you say so I won't argue the point.
4) Gather has fewer active members than the 200,000 it claims. Probably true. The bone of contention is whether the real number is in the thousands or the hundreds. At this point it seems to me that no evidence I could present would prove my position to you or to "Time Heals". A newby comes up nearly a thousand connections? Yes, but they could be alters--not hers, but somebody else's. Well, maybe. Having looked at a random sample of the connections, I very much doubt it, but it isn't totally beyond the realm of possibility. To be honest, the number doesn't matter particularly much to me. I have a group of friends on Gather I enjoy hanging out with. It is large enough and talented enough to keep me occupied. I'm happy.
Is it important to establish whether or not the active Gather population really is no more than a few hundred active members, and a few hundred more semi-active ones rather than somewhere in the thousands? I'm not sure why it would be. If it is important, then that's the only thing I'm aware of that we're in disagreement on.
I'm not a big fan of endless debates, so here are a couple of questions for anyone interested in the issue: (1) How was that estimate arrived at? (2) Is there any way to prove or disprove it? If it is a guess based on experience on Gather, and it can't be proven or disproven by any objective means, then my part in the discussion is over. It's pointless.
Read back through this thread and decide for yourself who tried to make an issue worthy of debate about the matter. I've encountered an endless string of people who like to create debates out of nothing on Gather. They take an authoritative position on something they want to debate, then cast others in the role of the opposition. They use the opportunity they've created to educate those they've tried to cast in a defensive role. It's an old, worn out game. Frankly, my primary reaction to it is a roll of the eyes and a yawn. There are so many straw men around here, you have to carry a torch just to get through the crowd.
It's too bad that it happened again on the discussion thread of one of Sandy's articles. The article is fairly good, and contains some real ideas worth discussing. It does a disservice to Sandy to hijack this thread for the purpose of staging a peripheral non-debate with unwilling debate partners.
I'd just like to say that I have been one of those people that "should" have read the article. I HATE romance and I hate it even more when people whore it out to me. If I wanted to read romance, I would have clicked on all 126 romance first chapters that I've seen throughout the pages of Gather. I hate romance by people that already are published authors and I still hate romance even if it's by someone that is trying to BE a published author. Maybe those hundreds of people don't like romance nor do they like it whored out in their email box.
Now, Sandy, I don't think I would have been as gracious as you. I'm up to my eyeballs in "come read my article" emails that I've since just started leaving them in my inbox. After a lot of them build up, I just click them all and delete them all. If we've moved on to "come read my friend's articles" too, I think I'll stab my eye out with a rusty nail (line stolen from DW without permission).
I only joined Gather because of the contest offered by Pocket Books (which had been listed on Karen Fox's webpage)...before then, I'd never even heard of Gather. And even after joining two months ago, I didn't know this was a site (exclusively) for writers. I belong to several online writing forums, I work and associate with writers from brand-spanking new, to multi-published, to award winning. I enjoy interacting with writers, giving them my feedback and advice based on what I've learned over the years, and trying my best to help them achieve the same dream I am seeking and I also very much welcome the same courtesies (okay...that looks like it's spelled wrong) :-P
Anyway, I apologize for any inappropriate postings or emails I've sent out in the last six weeks....I can only blame it on being new to this site and not knowing the proper protocol. =) As an aside, I have posted actual writing articles here too.
best,
Terri (who won't post her chapter link) ;-)