Discussion Topic #8: Hell--What is it? Where is it? Do you believe in it?

I used to believe that it really did not exist, and that God invited everyone to heaven. Recently I experienced a spirit that was so evil and dark, and it convinced me that Hell really must exist. Darkness like that would never be allowed in heaven.

That must have been quite an experience, Sue. It sounds like you were very frightened.

I was beyond frightend, but I had a healer with me and helped to protect me. He also taught me how to protect myself from such darkness.

Sue, I was prepared to say I don't really believe in hell as a permanent location. You make me back off that. So now I don't know. I do know I think we can have our worst hell here on earth in life. I do think if hell exists it won't be forever. Eventually hell's inhabitants would be rejoined with God somehow.

It is certainly difficult to conceive of a state of mind or place where there is eternal suffering. However, there are many negative, angry, dark beings. I would hope that they would have a way to become one with God even after life has ended.

That is a great question Carla ... before I became spiritual, all I had to go on was the standard hand-me-downs of religious lore and in not being religious I never gave it much thought or concern.

It was only after my spiritual awakening that I gave it much thought and then only in relationship as a passing interest of no real concern because I had been assured by then that my future was to transcendent to hell (whatever it may be).

By then I had also come to the conclusion that hell was relative and really only a state of mind ... yet the mind is the most real thing we can experience, so hell for many is the conditions they live in right here on earth. I personally cannot conceive of a more hellish place ... yet it has the potential to also be most heavenly (in comparison anyway), that heavenly for me would be related to living in a pure (which does not seem to exist in reality here as far as I know) natural setting with people that were like thinkers ... and most important of all, believing it so heavenly as to have no concerns or fears about 'other' ... but to me that is not really likely as long as one seeks ultimate truth, which for me has been determined by the equation (+=-) which basically says there are no free lunches ... thus one would have to be deluded that heavenly perfection is absolutely free of a potential of the opposite. Of course that does not preclude a visitation there (heaven) for a 'period' of time (like a divine 'vacation').

But I also believe that we come to earth from a heavenly realm with perfect understanding beforehand that we will, in doing so, forget our 'past' and be fully enmeshed in the earth world 'reality' of ego relationships. A reality that must seem to be the only possible thing for so many here that have no concerns for any other concepts involving heavens or hells (otherwise). This being in the larger reality also just a 'vacation' of sorts. (not all vacations turn out well).

So in a nutshell (if possible), I would say that it is all in the mind and we make our own reality by our thinking which is also influenced by those others that affect us in so many ways who are also making their own realities whether they are actually aware or not. Thus we share a jointly created reality ... but even that is all about thought. Even if we have very physical concerns, even pains, they are still only of importance to us based upon our thoughts about them. Granted, it is very difficult to NOT think about severe pain ... but it surely has been done by some. There are many stories of people that have experienced tremendous trauma and have no recollection of any of it afterwards ... I guess that begs the question of did they actually feel it 'then' but only lost the later memory of that feeling ... and then the question of, does it really make any difference which.?.

I will say that I have experienced many nightmares over my lifetime that sure seemed very 'hellish' ... and I believe that they may well have been foretastes of hell. But since my awakening I have had dreams that were very vivid and of some of the same issues, yet I seemed to be able to recognise that I was only either an observer rather than a 'victim' ... I saw myself participating in the 'events' even at times, but usually without fear or guilt, as if I were only 'playacting' a 'role' for educational purposes, maybe the schooling for my soul ? Some of those dreams seemed to be very lucid, and in many I could consciously make decisions to change the events as they happened. Especially important was the ability to do that when I saw the dreams turning nightmarish down certain lines of past experiences where I knew that if I went 'there' I would end up 'trapped' in an unwanted condition.

So (sorry I rambled so long), hell to me is just a frame of mind ... but still extremely REAL to those that believe it so. I would not want to be them ... here or 'there' (eternity).

I think that Hell exists and it's here on earth! It is here we come to learn and advance
as we deal with the negativities of life.

PS ... *denny* posted while I was writing, in reading her comment, it made me think of a couple more things that I must mention.

The most extremely important issue with me, is that in seeking peace in my life, I sought truth above all and I was convinced that if there were not a higher form of truth than I had so far experienced in my depressive earth realm (pre-awakening) that I did not intend to live in it any longer. That is how desperate I was then.

So Spirit GAVE me Truth and it was both unconditional love as well as the realization that IT was also God !

After that initial experience, which came rather spontaneously with no prior knowledge that such was even a potential, I had to do years of research into all avenues related to everything paranormal, religious, spiritual, philosophical, metaphysical, mythological, and on and on ...

And what I found was that I had gained what has been called the perennial wisdom (IMnsHO) ... and this has given me the INsight to realize that the spiritual realms are actually infinite in nature and contain infinite potentials ... of which very nasty 'being's (spiritual and otherwise) are there for us as we see fit to participate with ... yes, demons and what-not, we CAN actually sell our soul to the 'Devil' ... we can participate with all kinds of people and spirits, even 'gods' ... it is all up to us though, and none of those spirits or people have any real power over us other than what we freely give them. That applies to here and now even ... except for past agreements on our soul (spiritual) level where we 'need' certain 'experiences' for our 'learning' ... nothing 'happens' but for there being a reason and that reason is always just a 'teaching' that we will be better off for having had it in the greater picture of eternity and our souls role there.

The point being, play around with spirits, or people, if you really want to, and for whatever reason, they are there to do your bidding and they WILL accommodate you !

So what I so strongly suggest, is that you NOT do so UNLESS you are SURE that your INTENTIONS are of the higher order. Many people in this day and age are 'playing' around in spiritual matters for many not so good reasons and they may well have experiences that teach them lessons that they would not have asked for had they known ahead of time what they were getting into ...

But our INner Soul, our higher Self, our Spiritual nature IS always in touch with all of these 'other' Spirits and spirits and the universal agreement is that no real harm will be done to any of us other than what we NEED (or ask for) on the path to learning the highest truths of God. Rest assured about that.

By the way, I HAVE been to Hell AND Back ... but it was on a train in Norway. :-)

I believe Hell is here on Earth.

Hell and Heaven (as well as the Kingdom of Heaven spoken of in the NT) are present in us right now, but for most of undeveloped humanity only in potential. For those who have undertaken the path of self-evolution as demonstrated by many messengers, the work of cultivating the innate potential of completion which is described as making a spiritual body or soul ("Ye must be born again.") it is different. They participate in the reality of the work of the spiritual world , living in "two worlds" ("being in the world but not of it"). For the mass of humanity, "salvation" ( which is completion) is promised at a distant, unknown time in all the world religions. The few who take on the work of self-completion participate with the spiritual powers in advancing the slow evolution of all humanity that they were created to complete. Many are called, few listen, fewer work to serve higher powers.

Very well and concisely said Clarke. Amen to that !

After reading the origins of heaven and hell, myths that go as far back in history as we can possibly go, I would have to say, I absolutely do not believe in either. If anything it's a state of mind.

I am impressed with all the comments here, and particularly appreciated your's Clarke. Fewer people believe in Hell as a place than I would have thought. I, too, believe that hell and heaven are both a state of mind.

There is a Pentecostal minister from Tulsa who spoke out that there was no such place as Hell and that everyone goes to Heaven. He says that this came as a revelation from God himself. His congregation of 6,000 people turned against him as well as most of his evangelical friends (including Oral Roberts, who was his mentor). But Bishop Carlton Pearson does not regret his speaking out. He says now that for the first time, he not only loves God, but he likes him.

I believe that heaven and hell have been used in churches to manipulate people and perpetuate feelings of fear and guilt. I believe that we have the power to create our own heaven and hell through choices that we make and how we choose to perceive the challenges that come into our lives--again, they are a state of mind.

"Hell is other people."

I really am not sure what I think of hell anymore, I don't see it as a physical place with their will be fire and gnashing of teeth, but I am not sure if I believe what hell is.

It can be simply the separation from God in this world and the next.

Carla,
It is intersting you mention Bishop Pearson. He had a real glimpse of our situation, one might say. I don't doubt clerics with large followings in the church and other faiths understand his insight, but do not feel that their obligation is to seek to change the minds of others , except by example.

In any case, the reaction to the Bishop's speaking out was predictable. Of course, in many cultures he was saying what was obvious to many in some cultures because they were raised from childhood to think that way , whether they were even literate or educated.

I agree that orthodoxies often teach "guilt" and then offer "forgiveness" in order to maintain their institutions. This is not the original meaning of their teachings. However,
people have been helped to restrain their lower natures through having the rituals and scriptures as guidance for centuries. In making these available orthodoxies have provided a hearth of hope and a source of spiritual nourishment for ages. On the other hand, it seems all wars are in a way religious wars (including those secular dogmas like capitalism and communism as "religions.")

It is true that heaven and hell are a state of mind. State of mind can be understood in different ways. The French philosopher Gabriel Marcel said there are "problems" and "mysteries." Problems are what we can fix, that is using intelligence to be good citizens and improve human societies. Mysteries are what we can go into and learn from, an endless search. So there is a higher authority ,spiritual intelligence that is beyond human intelligence. It has its plan and aims to work out which we cannot know the scale of but can be open to in our daily living and seek to serve . The challenge of living in two worlds. History is mostly lies as it said, but in general it shows us civilzations rise and fall according to the relation of humans to higher intelligence, often represented by messengers sent from "on high."

In my opinion, Jerry and Clarke have nailed it pretty good. I have been to hell and I have been to heaven. I mention this in my article, We Live, WE Die - Then What?
Let me hasten to explain that both places were only one example of the hellish regions and the heavenly regions. I was told in advance I would be taken to the various levels of consciousness during sleep observe them. It was a fascinating experience. Each level is created by the collective minds of the inhabitants. Our soul takes us to our respective level at death. But don't worry, most of us will find ourselves in a very beautiful environment, with lakes, trees, halls of learning, music, art, literature, all our loved ones - our pets - it goes on and on. Even the residents of the lower levels will arise to the higher levels when they take the initiative to do so. We must earn every step of the way. God has no favorites. But life is eternal. The quality of that life (both here and hereafter) is up to us. Love is the greatest power in the world. Hate, anger, resentment, envy, etc., are hellish states of mind.

Robert, well said ... and I am intrigued, I will check out your article posthaste.

Hell, the inevitable destination when human beings behave like animals and do not aspire to higher consciousness ... and you do not even have to do anything bad to get there if enough people are bad enough for a long enough time, everyone loses.

Robert E, Sounds like your description is similar to the LDS teaching on the plan of salvation.

Reading all of your comments has been quite fascinating and inspiring. I love the exchange of ideas that Gather makes possible. Thank you all for taking the time to share your thoughts and beliefs. I am encouraged as I read your comments that there are many like-minded people who are working to raise the consciousness of this planet.

Well said, Carla. Each of us has the power within our sphere of influence to make a difference.

Hell is an existence without God. Where is it? It probably presents itself differently for different people, but God does not send people there, and the Hell of the Bible was not created for humans, but as a place for the rebel angels who could no longer remain in the presence of the Creator. People don't get sent to Hell, they choose it by default when choosing not to be with God...although I do think there is more "wiggle room" than some are led to believe. after all, this is an all-merciful God we are talking about, not an accountant.

LL and Carol, I would ask though, if God is everywhere present, how could someone be somewhere where God isn't? I believe that God is everywhere present, including within each of us. But most of us aren't aware of God's presence in our lives and we start to feel separate from God. That is in itself hell, don't you think?

Robert E. - YES.

In my shamanic journeyings I've come across various "hell regions" and "heaven regions" in the inner world.
Everything, including material embodiment on this planet, is a state of mind.

The energy of hate [greed/lust/murderousness/warmongering] is a "hell creation" energy. It's possible to see hell portals opening over various areas of the planet, with demons pouring out ------AND it's also possible to call in the angelic forces, the LOVE forces, to go back in time, order the demons back into their passageway, and close the hell portal. There are plenty of Lightworkers doing this work at this time - the end of the great hell cycle, leading to the opening of the Age of Peace.

Just as there are "hell portals," there are also "heaven portals" to be physically experienced on this planet. Focusing on gratitude, deep appreciation, absolute in-love-ness with the "heaven days" and "heaven times" we experience here is one way of increasing heaven areas and allowing the hell areas to wither away from lack of attention/energy.

Always, always, always focus on what you want to see increased.

It certainly is, Carol. I've been there.

The Bible, OT and NT, were based on previous teachings.
Discussing his search in Egypt for the source of esoteric knowledge, Gurdjieff said, "It will seem strange to many people when I say that this prehistoric Egypt was Christian many thousands of years before the birth of Christ." Of his discoveries, he said, "The Christian church, the Christian form of worship, was not invented by the fathers of the church. It was all taken in a ready-made form from Egypt, only not from the Egypt that we know but from one which we do not know. This Egypt was in the same place as the other but it existed much earlier. Only small bits of it survived in historical times, and these bits have been preserved in secret and so well that we do not even know where they have been preserved."
—P.D. Ouspensky, In Search of the Miraculous

Adam, for some of us these things are direct experience and direct revelation, rather than simply belief systems or spoutings of "psycho-babble." It appears that you're lecturing at all these wonderful independent thinkers from a position based on a belief system.
I'm offering you a challenge to step outside of your box and go for direct experience - it's priceless, and it's your God-given right to have it.

Adam P.,
No one is denying your testament of faith. But to presume that others have perhaps the same or a deeper experience and faith and truth than you , while thay may never have any knowledge of the Bible is foolish pride.

Well if it isn't my old friend, Adam, back to enlighten us "New Agers". Adam, we have had our discussions before. You are absolutely sure that you are right about everything and if you wish to believe that, that is okay. What I find somewhat annoying is your need to make everyone else wrong.

Those of us who have been in discussion, for the most part, do not take everything in the Bible literally. You obviously do. That is your right. And if you want to believe that we are all destined for some sulfur pit, that is also your right, although it seems to be causing you some internal distress as you mention that you feel "sick to my stomach."

Adam, I do not choose to see myself as "wretched" and as a miserable sinner. Have you heard of the "self-fulfilling prophecy"? It has been proven time and time again that what we identify with or believe about ourselves, we tend to become. Although I am not a perfect person, I see myself as an evolving soul who is learning to live a more Christ-like life.

Someone once said (I have forgotten whom) "The world doesn't need more Christians--it needs more Christs". It's about learning to live the teachings of Jesus. That is what he was trying to teach us in the three years of his ministry. Too many so-called Christians get baptized and think that this is all there is to it.

Most of us who have commented, Adam, have been seeking a personal relationship to God/Christ/the Divine. We do not believe that we know it all. But we are seeking a deeper experience of God in our lives by allowing God to communicate with us as we open our hearts and minds. I would encourage you to do the same. But I would not say that you have your "brain warped," if you choose not to do this or decide it is not right for you.

Adam, you talk about "worshipping the the Jesus of the Bible." My relationship is not with the Jesus of the Bible--it is with the living Christ presence. The apostle Paul said, "Christ in you your hope of glory." That Christ is as alive today as ever.

Beautifully said, Liz.

"...and the scales in the eyes grow thicker..."?? Adam, surely you could respond with something more original and thoughtful.

In your defense, however, I did see from your profile that you are still quite young--not yet 30. As you grow older and have more life experiences, you will find that things are not so black and white as you perceive them to be. I hope that should you experience challenges and loss in your life that you come to know the God of love and comfort rather than the God of hellfire and damnation. That is my prayer for you. Peace and blessings on your path, Adam.

Adam. without going back and studying your words again, my first impression of your view is as you say it is ... that of the good old book ... the historical as passed down by other humans that put it to paper so you can read it ... the OBJECTIVE (and literal) PROMISE of what YOUR FAITH "WILL" BRING you or another that believes as you do, which is as the words of "your" (priests etc) AUTHORITIES dogmatically insist is THE WAY, the gospel OBJECTIVELY understood (you say).

You also seem to put a very high priority on HELL, as if it were the very BASIS of your faith, because as you have said, (in your view) it is the need to save you from hell (first priority) that Jesus came to offer you a saving (second priority) grace from that sure fate that would be waiting for those that do not believe and accept that offer ...

Thus with THAT OBJECTIVE way of looking at it all, it is more of a FEAR thing where Hell is THE issue and faith is the INSURANCE policy against such a sure fate.

For those of us that have actually and truly experienced the Spirit of God, some call that the Holy Spirit, some call that the Christ Spirit, some call that the Spirit of Truth (promised to the disciples and all others at Pentecost), and some of us, myself anyway, just see it as my higher Spiritual INner Self (the SOUL, the Spirit withIn, that transcends the ego self) ... ALL such of these being SUBJECTIVE and thus very personal ... and far more REAL to the recipient than mere words of dogma, most of which are very much misunderstood and thus misapplied anyway ...

But THAT is the difference between the exoteric beliefs (yours and most religionists) that come from a book (or baptism by water, from an "authority") ... AND ... those of us that enjoy our REAL and subjective personal Baptism by Fire from the REAL Spirit, admittedly esoteric and mystical ...

But of course the religious authorities have maintained that all such is of the occult ... which it is in the true sense of the word ... because the true sense of the word allows that there are dark occult ('bad') practises ... as well as occult practises of the Light and Love ...

Those that cannot properly differentiate are usually those that either have no experience or are in fear of such ...

It is so sad that so many hold your view, that in itself is one of the greatest problems of our world and what causes so many divisional conflicts over who (which person or religion) holds what you call the truth, and many willing to kill over it ... some view of God that ...

Adam, you say that you see the Bible as "literature" and not to be taken literally and yet all your beliefs are based on a literal interpretation. You contradict yourself continuously.

Adam, why is it so important for you to believe that we are all miserable wretched sinners? It surely cannot be because of the Bible since you see that as literature.

And lastly, why do you not respond to the quote that I gave you from Paul--"Christ in you your hope of glory"? And what about the quote from Jesus that "these things and greater things shall you do"? Jesus believed in the goodness within all beings. He knew that we were capable of great things. If he believed that we would always be wretched miserable sinners because of "original sin" he would not have spent so much time teaching the principles that he did.

It is sad to me that you have bought into a God that is a merciless and vengeful being that feels the need to send his children into a fiery pit. That is not the God of my experience.

Adam, in part, you said; " Hell is real. Christ died on the cross and made an atonement for our sins in order to save us from hell! Hell is not something we merely perceive in our minds as New Age thinkers would suggest. "

The only thing you seem to be aware of is what has been taught to you by your exoteric take on the book you limit yourself to.

Your not being able to understand what I write is no surprise at all, I run into that all of the time when discussing things esoteric with people that have had no experience there and thus no comprehension even of the meanings of the words let alone the experience.

If you are really lucky, maybe as you grow-up you will come to find-out some meanings that you are now missing out on big time ... but with the attitude you now hold, I doubt that it will happen for you.

PS ... stay away from my book, as badly as you need the message there, you are not yet open to it. Peace and Love to you Adam, j.

What an interesting discourse. Adam, I'm sure that you are well-intentioned, but you really leave me scratching my head. Where did you get your theological training?

And Carla, I have tried to debate fundamentalist Christians before and I don't recommend it. They immediately begin quoting scripture verses one right after the other. They do this rather than have an intelligent conversation. Adam talks a good game throwing around words like "exegesis" (critical explanation of the text). But the sad thing is, people such as Adam generally have no personal relationship with God/Christ because they are so caught up in the literal (yes, literal) interpretation of scripture.

Anyway, I suggest that you and Jerry spend your time responding to those that really have an open mind and want to have a discussion and not receive a sermon. By the way, I heartily recommend the book "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman. He is the chairman of the religious studies department at the University of North Carolina.

Oh yes, Carla, I see that you are a Unity minister. I am not that familiar with Unity although I have had the chance to look through the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary written by your co-founder Charles Fillmore. It is an intriquing work that I think could help shed a whole new light on scripture. I plan to purchase a copy for my library.

Hi, Adam - I see you love debate. I'm like that, too! I've got Mercury conjunct Mars, and both are in Aries--------I just LOVE a good debate.

There are some things missing from this one, though:
1. Remember that Constantine had many parts of the compilation of inspired texts excised by a council he convened - somebody remind us of the date, OK? So it's important to check out the Nag Hammadhi finds and the more recent finds of the studies of Judas.
2. How many scholarly languages do you have? It would be absolutely marvelous if someone in this group of us were fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin - WOW! Then we'd be flyin' high with fascinating comparisons and interpretations. As it is, we all appear to be stuck with English, and wonderful though it is, I have the sense that some of the many-layered translations just don't quite make it when put into English.
3. Are you currently in divinity school, or at least thinking of a major in religious studies? If not, why not? I'm curious, is all. I'm ordained as a Christian minister, but one of my friends was able to find a multi-religious ordination program (two years of post-graduate religious studies), which sounds fascinating to me. I may, at age 60 or beyond, attempt something like that still. Or not - I've got the most wonderful discussion friendship going on now with a man who teaches religious philosophy at a nearby Catholic University. I ran into him yesterday evening as he was on his way out of town, dressed in suit and yarmulkah, to play organ for Jewish high holiday services.
Another multi-religionist. We're everywhere!
4. I haven't gotten the sense from your posts that you really comprehend the difference between matriarchal and patriarchal energies - and I don't have the sense that your value system includes the valuing of feminine power. That leaves us with only a patriarchalist interpretation of scripture - but that's not going to float anyone's boat anymore, come the "revolution" (the Age of Peace).
If you don'tk know what I mean by matriarchal, you might dip into the novel THE RED TENT......it's set in the "end times" of matriarchal practices in the Middle East, and specifically practices of the females of Jacob's tribe.

Judaism is, at root, a matriarchal religion: it goes by the 13-moon calendar. 13 moons, 13 menstrual periods, 13 times a year that females should be gathering and renewing their feminine powers and doing the visioning work for the tribe.....

Anyway.

Salud!

Oops! The compilation of sacred texts excised and re-ordered by Constantine's [male / patriarchal] council? The Bible! Check it out!

Paul, I just saw your book recommendation for "Misquoting Jesus". I went to school in Chapel Hill and had Bart as a professor. I, too, highly recommend his book.

I don't have a lot of time to discuss the topic at hand, but I will agree with Paul that it's best not to debate a fundamentalist. It is a lost cause. In the words of a very wise man...shake off the dust from your shoes and move on.

I will say this, however,...Adam, you seem to love the word "wretched."

I'm laughing, Paul and Brian, because I just got the same advice from my husband. He says that I'm spending way too much time on the computer these days.

And Brian, I agree. Adam does seem to like the word "wretched".

Adam, I will leave all as is because your own words convict you of the ignorance involved, but that is OK because for each there will be a time.

But please, before you go, correct my wretched spelling for me IF you can ... it might lead one of us to a transcendent understanding. I am sure that exact spelling is CRITICAL to objective (literal) comprehension, but the INtuitive abilities of the subjective are able to fill in those gaps for those so blessed.

Adam, I have not missed any points, it only appears so to you for all of the reasons already given ... :-)

I have no doubt that you are an intelligent being and know 'your' subject well (as objective as it is to you). I would never compete with you because I would not have a chance being as you have your game plan based upon your belief with your own set of rules that go with that game. I do not play such games.

Those of us that are not so narrowly conservative do not attempt to restrict God and the divine to such a small arena ... my only "rule" is that all be the Truth ... only that will do ... and when you get right down to it, the truth is also subjective and of a personal nature ... the truth shall set you free ... and it most definitely has me.

For those so confined as yourself, there can be no such freedom in this life ... I pity you for having that confinement, yet I realize that it is of your own choosing, therefore it is only what you want ... we do make our own reality in that regard ... that is what it means to be a god (note small g). That should really get you going, the hubris of it all ...

Enjoy ...

Adam, I think your last comment to me says it all. You have to be "right" at all costs. Have a good life Adam.

Adam, I see that you were evasive about answering my question about your theological training.

Adam, I am not surprised that you do not want to tell me where you received your theological training because you probably have had no formal education.

As far as me being New Age...that is quite funny young man. I am a retired Methodist minister with a degree from the University of Chicago Divinity School.

Adam, I think that Carla is correct about you needing to be "right". You do not discuss topics with people, you argue and deem others wrong because they do not agree with your highly conservative, fundamentalist beliefs. You may say that you're not a fundamentalist but as they say, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... and you show all the signs of being a fundamentalist.

The rest of us believe in having theological discussions, which, by the way occur in the most respected divinity schools, such as the University of Chicago and also where I attended the University of North Carolina. Reading Bart Ehrman's book and looking at the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary does not mean someone is New Age. As far as mysticism, there have been many Christian mystics. The mystics seek a more personal experience of God--what is wrong with that?

You know, Adam, you seem to speak out both sides of your mouth. You say in one sentence that you see the Bible as inspired literature and not to be taken literally and then in another sentence you chastise people who don't take the Bible literally. Which is it?

And as far as your comment to Paul about "not even speaking about the same God," do you believe that there is more than one God?

I think that Paul has probably realized, as has Carla, that it is fruitless to try to have a discussion with you. It might behoove you to find a Gather group that fits your need to be seen as right and as a theological expert. You will surely not find it here.

There are many teachings of Christianity.
For example, take the idea of "Thy will be done."
In western Christianity in its degenerate state of morbidity, the only thing left to do with this idea is construct an elaborate theology of vicarious atonement on the cross; the crucifixion "does" it "for" you since you can't do. This became the central motif for western forms of Christianity because as dead forms they had nothing else to offer. It is or was otherwise with eastern Christianity which both has a method and rejects the vicarious theory of substitutional atonement as being what the cross, death and resurrection is all about. From the eastern Christian perspective, it is a fundamental distortion and unethical misunderstanding of the "Christ- event" directly correlated with the loss in the west of all sense of method. The few "mystics" of western Christianity, as historically documented, were either suspected of heresy, often alone with even their confessors not understanding them or able to help (i.e., spiritually direct) them, or they had contacts with the east (i.e., eastern Christianity) where there was whole culture of method and competent direction.

"In short, Scripture must be interpreted in the sense in which it was intended—and that is how I interpret the text." Adam, how do you know how it was intended? Are you some sort of psychic medium? I have written some "inspired" articles myself and I'd hate to have others decide what my intention was hundreds of years after the fact.

If you are the biblical scholar that you purport to be, you must know that the Bible was written by many humans, inspired yes, but very human with biases, political and personal agendas, preconceived ideas which were not always based on reality but often on mythology, superstitions, and inaccurate information. (They thought the earth was flat for crying out loud.) Jesus used parables, metaphor and symbolism. He did not expect that everyone would understand his message. It would take spiritual understanding of a higher level than most people at that time, and even now, possess.

Adam, perhaps I did judge your motives, but it was based on what I read--and I did read the whole thread by the way. I have also read some of your other comments to other posts. You come across as very arrogant, patronizing and judgmental. I would ask, "What is your motive?" You do not come across as a compassionate Christian who genuinely cares about people. Perhaps you feel that you are called to evangelize and save the world. I certainly understand that. But you push more people away by your attitudes and words rather than draw them to you. Remember: "By their fruits they shall be known." Your hitting people over the head with your beliefs and condeming attitudes and not showing any respect for people will not win friends and influence people. You come across rather as an insecure person who desperately wants to be respected and seen as right. Jesus did not use these tactics in his ministry and thousands were drawn to him.

Adam, why not model the teachings of Jesus rather than beat people up with them? Why not be the change that you want to see in the world? (I can't remember who originally said that--probably some New Ager :-) Why not soften yourself and show a sense of humor for a change?

Enough on this. I'm going to shut up now. This topic has run its course and the only reason I bothered to reply to you is that I found myself feeling compassion for you and seeing that in you that is underneath the seemingly harsh exterior. You are still young. As much as you know about scripture, life has other lessons for you. Allow yourself to learn from people. Don't run them off with your verbal barbs. So many people are trying to find their way in this world to understand the true message of scripture, and to apply it in their lives. None of us has all the pieces to the puzzle. Share your beliefs and understanding and allow me to share mine without making me wrong. If I end up in a sulfur pit south of Gary, Indiana then so be it.

By the way, Unity is not New Age. It is New Thought. There is a difference. Peace, brother.

Adam, I second ALL of the advice given you on this thread, especially that above from Brian who is much more gentile with you than I probably would be.

I still have not heard from you on my supposed misspelling ... maybe you have learned something from that already and are embarrassed ? The words are correctly spelled to the best of my knowledge (exoteric/esoteric) and they are the KEY to understanding what everyone here is attempting to tell you ...

As for what I call your "game" ... The subject of God is more like "sports" in general, it includes numerous "games" ... yours is NOT the ONLY game going here ... we folks are speaking of the sports and you are hung up on one separate 'game' ... Peace, j.

A good question, dear Carla... probably the best definition of hell I know is the following - hell is nothing else but the Paradise where there's no place either for Hope or for Love. ;-)

Blessings and best wishes - S.

Adam, I feel very sad for you that you cannot even come out from behind your wall and have an honest communication with someon who tried to show you understanding and compassion. I asked you some legitimate questions to try to get a sense of where you are coming from. You duck behind a prayer that is so bereft of any real love or true concern for others. You are like a little boy placing his fingers in his ears and shouting to avoid hearing what anyone else has to say. You are the lost soul, my friend and I pity you.

Adam, you had ought to believe it, Brian says it well, that is the higher truth that you are missing.

I decided to check back in with our little group and see what was happening. Brian, I admire your patience, and your willingness to reach out to Adam. As you have said, it is sad. As you remember, I did caution you all to not waste your time trying to reason or have a discussion with someone who is caught up in the web of religious fundamentalism.

Brian, I believe that your observations about Adam are probably very accurate. He is a troubled young man filled with a lot of anger, hostility and judgment. From some of his other comments, I would venture to say that he also has some significant issues with women. But I digress. I think that maybe prayers for Adam are warranted and I am quite serious about this.

Amen to that, Paul.

And Brian, I also admire your patience with our young friend. I think your very astute observations and the questions that you asked made him more than a little uncomfortable thus resulting in his once again evasive response. Thanks for at least being willing to take the time to respond and reach out to him. I believe that it was well-intentioned and that you genuinely care.

Adam, first off, you say in part " ... all people should know that Christians are never called to judge one another's heart—that is the providence of the Holy Spirit. ... "

But then as I reread that, maybe in your mind it only applies between fellow Christians, that class of people that 'you' would seem to exclude us 'heathens' from ... right ?

But then you have not answered other questions, so I would not expect an answer to this either. But I will say that the Spirit of God AND Christ, works through our hearts more so than our heads ... and it has been at least 'hinted' at here that you seem to have your version of Spirit more from the head than the heart. Just 'seems' that way to most of 'us' from what I can tell.

Now let me, if I may, take a crack at your 'throwing of body parts away' (remember, I do not play this game so this is just an exercise). IF Jesus really said that (that is always questionable because he left no notes and we have mentioned before of the possibilities of misunderstandings otherwise) ... he probably meant that the body which contains the Spirit of God, even in the form of THE Son, or the Holy Spirit (or even my own higher Self), will survive without the parts and pieces mentioned and thus the Spirit will still be INtact and useful in life. But if one were to dispose of the entire body through neglect, then it would no longer be here to carry ones Spirit to good use.

As for the word "hell" ... it is of no never-mind to me because it is but the darkness that exists without the light of the Spirit of God (by whatever name used), and all who truly recognise that Spirit have no concerns of hell either, because we have been already truly Saved (as much as one can be on earth in life).

I would maintain that IF you were 'truly' Saved, you would have the wisdom granted through that process that has been called the perennial wisdom (or philosophy) that would allow you to know the truths of which we speak ... the fact that you do not recognise our words as higher truth, indicates your unawareness of that, probably also indicating that you yourself may well not be as spiritually 'gifted' as you might prefer to think.

As for the "higher truth", an example would be when Jesus spoke to the crowds that contained many people, he spoke in parables where the very same words had at the same time two distinctly different meanings. The lower and lessor of those meanings was that of the objective and literal exoteric that the bulk of the peoples would 'maybe' understand, the 'normal people and any would be disciples ... some say the 'milk' of food for thought.

But then for the more evolved spiritually, there would be the esoteric meaning, the spiritually subjective that far transcends that of the other, that only a relative few would understand, those being his apostles who would then be 'qualified' to teach the disciples of that higher truth. The 'meat' of the food for thought, it has been said.

So Adam, I would like to hear from you on this and where you think you stand as well as why and how.

I would also suggest that when you are offering prayers to your God in the form of Christ (I assume that is the relationship you use) that you pray, rather than for us, for your own understandings of what 'we' are trying to teach you ... a little meat to go with your milk.

Peace, j. ... and by the way, YES, you really should read my book, you could learn a lot from it, it seems. It is all about transcendent (higher) Truth ... the Truth that sets us free.

Adam, your comment was: "Seems that I can't win for losing with you people." That is the point that I have been trying to make with you. You have this deep need to be right or to "win" in these "arguments" as you call them. Someone who has to be right or to win at all costs is not someone that I personally want to engage in any conversation with online. I appreciate a discussion with someone who is open-minded and who doesn't mind disagreeing on things. But you get, as you put it "aggressive" and attack people personally.

Yes, Carla, Adam has proven time and time again that it's all about him being right and winning. I'm going to spend time with my wife.

Adam, I am not offended by your passion. I am offended by your desire to make others wrong in their spiritual beliefs. We are a group of adults trying to discuss and share our beliefs. You are probably the youngest of us all. The rest of us are strong in our faith and, although our theology may be different from yours, we are quite happy with our beliefs. We accept that maybe we do not agree on everything, but we don't try to make each other wrong. You are like a dog with a bone. You ask us questions, not because you are genuinely interested, but only to find fault and criticize. You come across as arrogant, patronizing and judgmental. Please tell me: Why should any of us spend our time responding to you?

Adam, it is too late today for me to address your comment in total so I will begin based upon what little memory I might have based upon the once through read. I am sure I will leave much out.

First off I will congratulate you for your knowledge on the subject matter addressed, based upon what I know of those, I find no fault except for possibly a couple areas. As for what "Carla thinks", I will leave that to her as I am not sure that you really know.

I will say that my beliefs do coincide very much with the New Thought beliefs of Unity and I have studied Charles Fillmore's Metaphysical Bible Dictionary with the strong impression that his take of that and the standard christian understandings, differ to the degree of what I have called the esoteric and the exoteric. Subjective/objective or Subjective/Literal, as in more Spiritual/less spiritual ...

I also believe in reincarnation as a way to learn until one has satisfied those needs, earth life is a schooling, realized or not. When we get the lesson down, we are admitted to a higher realm without the need to reincarnate back into the lower for further study. We have already expressed our views of hell earlier.

As for the Bible as the standard of reference, no I do not value it that way, in fact I believe the Urantia Papers (circa 1928) to be the better and more recent revelation and inspired writings from the higher realm to the lower. That is now a Book since about 1955. I would seriously recommend a reading of that for any interested in a much more complete story of the life of Christ Jesus.

As for your spiritual gifts, if I recall correctly, I only suggested that you "may" be different than what you think ... I never said that you "were".

As for any "authority" about what is what, I leave that to God. I have my experience, understanding and relationship to what I call God and I am quite sure by now that you would disagree with that. But to each their own, by their fruit shall they be known.

I stand by my findings and writings and that is all much better already explained and lad out in my own book already mentioned. I believe my views to be consistent with those.

Thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy comment, I wish I were able to spend more time addressing it, maybe tomorrow but I doubt it because we have out of town guests to entertain. Peace, j.

"The stakes are incredibly high"? Adam, is your faith in question? Mine is not. The fact that you and I may not agree does not matter to me. I will not defend or justify my theology. I am at peace with my beliefs and my relationship with God. I hope that you are also. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I know...you want to prove me wrong...but Adam, we will all only know the truth when we leave this world. Until then, we all speculate and have to make up our own minds on what to believe. I do hope that you can find some peace in not having converted us heathens and "saved" us wretched sinners.

Just a note - there's no "right" or "wrong" here - just a matter of lower or higher vibrational thoughts / thoughtforms. When one is vibrating in the lower range, then fear thoughts are more attractive, and the thinker turns Divine Love into judgement and separativism, etc.
When one is vibrating higher, then love thoughts are more attractive, and the thinker magnifies Divine Love, increasing the energies of compassion, generosity of spirit, etc.

Thinkers think what they're able to think according to their vibrational levels of initiation and spiritual maturity. And ALL thinkers go through their levels and tests and progressions.

Adam you keep challenging commenters to learn more on this subject. I wrote a piece that you should find interesting then. Feel free to let me know what you think because it is indeed a very factual look at hell minus the things most folks add to what they think hell is.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?memberId=496960&articleId=281474977410672

I sart of with: "The truth about hell is that you probably have no idea how un-biblical your current beliefs are. I say this because we have all been told the same thing by our churches, and our churches are simply incorrect when it comes to preaching hell."

Enjoy!

Carla, ma’am >

I am pleased to visit one of your posts.
You come recommended as a noteworthy
voice for the Christian perspective on Gather.

As I’ve scanned the participants I can
see that many of the usual suspects are here.

One, in particular, caught my eye – Adam P.

Me thinks an embodiment of true hell would be an
full evening’s conversation only with him.



Quite a puppet, this young one!

I would add that Peter L’s above-mentioned piece is
indeed a well-versed discussion of the topic.
Your readers seeking a hell of a read would benefit from
visiting this link:

The Truth About Hell

Thanks for the hospitality and thank you, Adam, for the entertainment.

In my religion we believe in something quite differen't than most religions. We believe that there are 3 differnen't kingdoms of glory. The lowest kingdom will even be better than the current state of life on earth. The worst place someone can go is not one of the kingdoms but is called "outer darkness". This is like "Hell" which most people call it. It is being cast out from the presence of God and Jesus Christ to be with Satan and his followers in a state of misery.

i think hell is a state of mind. for the religious, hell happens when youre in damnation. but some believe theyre already in hell, which leads to other things (like what happened in your other life to have you sent here?). i believe hell is what you make it out to be.

You may want to obtain a copy of Vital Truth and Precepts and read the following sections: Chapter 1 that describes some realities about God, evil and hell, as well as Chapter 7 that deals with the "Inescapable Realities" for every human being - no exception.

Have fun reading!

God has a message for you

I believe the "HELL" that humans will experience, both during this earth life and beyond, is a "degree of absence" of Heavenly Father's presence...and to what degree we are deprived of His presence (from 100% to 0%), will be determined by Heavenly Father's criteria, as He has revealed to us in scripture/through the prophets ("In my Father's house, there are many mansions...")...the highest degree of glory we can be given is to be able to RETURN into His presence and live WITH Him forever (inheriting all that He has), as He has promised us...all other degrees of glory fall short of that, all the way down to the total absence of His presence, and therefore, his LOVE....I believe that very FEW will actually be deprived of His presence altogether, this level of existence will be reserved for satan and those who "grieve the Holy Spirit", which is the only "unforgivable" sin.

I believe Hell is a state of mind; the imageries are more to help us understand the consequences of our lives. I can not with absolute conviction say that Hell will not be a physical place but the state of mind theory is my understanding of it.

Those of us who get caught up in this world will understand one day, be it before their death or after it, that they have wronged their own souls and they have not understood the demands of the Creator. That realization and the fruitlessness of this life, if it is so wasted, will be that person's hell. The money and fame from this world will not pass on to the next world. And consider someone who is so caught up in becoming rich he hasn't thought beyond that? To such a person hell will be painful because he will be frustrated with his being. Those who do not understand the purpose of life in this world will be just as blind to it in the next world and so their hell will haunt them until God, the ever merciful, will enlighten them. Hell, I believe, will one day be empty. Heaven, on the other hand, is forever.

Hell - what is it? A figment of the imagination.

Where is it? In your head.

What is it like? Hell is like having six thousand religious nuts all shouting their religious-nutcase theories about what hell is like into your ears en masse and forever. I'm totally sick of your "friendly reminders" about repentance. Remove the plank from your own eye before you clutter up my mailbox.