Transcript of live chat with Robert Goolrick, author of "The End of The World As We Know It: Scenes From A Life."

The author is on the radio now. The conversation about sexual abuse, being honest about sexual abuse, and writing family expose/memoirs is obviously difficult - and necessary - based on the interactions I'm hearing.

Please do not hesitate to present questions in advance.

In the 1940s, my father was sent to live with a Catholic priest from age 14-18. His mother and father, parents of 11 children in a small Minnesota town, agreed that this was a wonderful opportunity for him to obtain a Catholic education and perhaps become a priest himself.
My father was raped repeatedly over that 4-year period, then went on to rape, burn, choke and beat his own children. He committed suicide at age 61.
His children have had the advantage of therapy and growing up in a society where talking about abuse is accepted. Still, we have suffered from guilt at not preventing abuse of siblings, hatred of our father for what he did, mistrust of authority figures (many of whom knew about the abuse and did nothing about it) hatred of our mother from not preventing abuse of her children, self-hatred, chemical abuse, suicide attempts, confusion about healthy sexuality and terror that we will pass on this legacy to our own children.
As we move into our 40s, the abuse we endured still defines us. It shapes our responses to people and situations to this day. We are hyper-vigilant parents. We trust no one but each other. We hope our children will have the chance for a "normal" life, because we know that we are not normal and never will be.
Our souls were ripped from us as children. We have already died and do not fear death.
Thank you for talking about this.

Mary, this is a very sad story.
I am thankful that you and your siblings have had the opportunity to participate in counseling and therapy.

I am so sorry that the abuse suffered by your father has effects that survive in succeeding generations.

You are right to be thankful that we have had therapy!

The advantage of such horrific child abuse is that as adults, we know that we can survive anything. The "river of anger" referred to by Mr. Goolrick sustains us.

What is unforgiveable is that in my case, many adults knew or suspected the abuse but did nothing about it.

Mary M wrote her personal story.

Robert Goolrick responded:

Mary I think that one of the worst consequences of child rape is the fear of passing it on from generation to generation. My heart goes out to you. I think you are very brave to go on and have families of your own. It says in my book that if I can prevent one father from raping his four-year-old son then it will be worth having written it.

Judy C. wrote: Is there really no hope for finding some happiness? for believing in myself in order to accomplish something? Thank you.

Robert Goolrick replies:

I think that enduring despair makes you stronger and that strength sustains you through even the most hopeless moments. You will always feel a nagging fear of hopelessness but the strength you show means that you don't have to give in to it. Thank you for writing.

Laura from Minneapolis, MN sent a question: I was sexually abused by a family member when I was 9-11. In my case I pursued success as my route out of the madness.

How is that possible?

Robert Goolrick answered:

Well I have a very successful career in advertising. I think that a lot of us who have been abused that success is an armor we wear - it protects us - and it is another example of the kind of strength that we can draw out of despair.

Hi.
I am wondering how the author is or was able to distinguish actual reality from created reality, especially in regards to impressions and feelings. That is to say, how does the writer even really *know* how the family was or is responding to him after making a lifelong career of deception of both self and others? How can one even tell what is real from what isn't, as far as relationships are concerned?

Gerry of Prior Lake, MN sent a question: Where are the comments from the perpetrators? Do they ever beg for forgiveness?


Robert Goolrick responds:

No! In fact, one of the priests who was found guilty recently has now retired and moved to Italy. He had repeatedly raped a boy in the... 70s, I believe. His comment was, "Why don't you leave me alone? I'm an old man now."

It was an outrageous comment and a complete avoidance of the fact of the crime - one I believe equals murder.

Thank you for telling your story of abuse. I've noticed that denial in families seems also to pervade society. When I was being abused in my family extremem pervasive poverty and segregation filled the US cities. A recent study says sexual abuse of children has gone down 20%. Do you believe these stats--frankly I do believe the lessening of mental health stigma has helped as have hours of hard work by social workers and mental health professionals--and spiritual community too I might add--12 steps and ministers of all kinds. But I suspect that the numbers of lessened abuse, given the rampant internet pornography, are just a case of reduced investment in mental health and social work. YOur thoughts?

Jewel T S., wrote: I am wondering how the author is or was able to distinguish actual reality from created reality, especially in regards to impressions and feelings. That is to say, how does the writer even really *know* how the family was or is responding to him after making a lifelong career of deception of both self and others? How can one even tell what is real from what isn't, as far as relationships are concerned?

Robert Goolrick said:

I don't know how to answer that. I don't quite understand the question, sorry.

Lisa S.: Thank you for telling your story of abuse. I've noticed that denial in families seems also to pervade society. When I was being abused in my family extremem pervasive poverty and segregation filled the US cities. A recent study says sexual abuse of children has gone down 20%. Do you believe these stats--frankly I do believe the lessening of mental health stigma has helped as have hours of hard work by social workers and mental health professionals--and spiritual community too I might add--12 steps and ministers of all kinds. But I suspect that the numbers of lessened abuse, given the rampant internet pornography, are just a case of reduced investment in mental health and social work. YOur thoughts?


Robert Goolrick answered:
I don't believe the numbers. I think child abuse is more talked about than ever, but I don't believe that .... I wouldn't think that the actual number of cases has gone down.

I am torn between telling myself to "just forget it, it happened 25 years ago" and wanting to face it and try to be a better person. I have a 9 month old son and I'm really not worried about the cycle continuing, but I'm more worried that maybe the bad memories and experiences in those years between 4 and 7 come out in forms of short temper, extreme fear of the dark and being alone, rage, and in general some forms of masochism (I too used to like razor blades). Does it really help to write or talk about it??? I've thought about it for years now, but I really do not want to my family to know.......my brother now has a family and the rest of my family would end up resenting me. Sometimes I really feel like millions of people have been through this...so just get over it.

Eugene of Saint Paul, MN sent a question: Have you come to peace in your life regarding all that has been done and said?

Robert Goolrick replies:

No, I don't think I will ever be at peace. There's too much damage, too much wasted time, too much love lost and too much of a broken heart.

If you live without hope for long enough you are finally hopeless.

Robert,
Thank you for writing and talking about this - the story needs to get out, and you are brave to have done it.

You mentioned that losing your brother feels horrible, but not as bad as you would have felt had you not written the book. How did writing the book help you emotionally? Was it during the writing of it or after it was finished (or published) that you felt the most relief (if that's what you felt)?

Also, did you ever consider changing the names so as not to offend or anger people who may want to hurt you because you dared to speak out?

I wanted to comment that adults *always* know. My neighbor punched her 8 year old son in the leg last week because she is an overwrought single mom who also suffered abuse as a child. Am I now complicit? what *are* we to do when we know bad things are happening? It isn't as easy as it looks, even or especially for abuse survivors.
I think of the "Ones Who Walk Away from Omelias," as an appropriate analogy. Abuse survivors carry the ugly of any society and those who don't do not like to think about it.
I suffered profound abuses of all sorts from infancy all the way through adulthood, and you might think that with education and a commitment to peace that I have a lock on doing the right thing, but the truth is that after so much ambiguity in my formative years, I have no idea *what* is right or wrong if there is such an objective thing anyways.

L M. wrote (excerpt): Does it really help to write or talk about it??? I've thought about it for years now, but I really do not want to my family to know.......my brother now has a family and the rest of my family would end up resenting me. Sometimes I really feel like millions of people have been through this...so just get over it.

Robert Goolrick responds:

I don't believe you can get over it by yourself. I don't think you can simply tell yourself to "be better" and it will get better. It is vital to take delight in the things that delight you like your child, but there's no easy way to put it behind you all by yourself.

You have to trust somebody else enough to tell the truth of your heart. Don't be afraid.

Lisa S. wrote:
You mentioned that losing your brother feels horrible, but not as bad as you would have felt had you not written the book. How did writing the book help you emotionally? Was it during the writing of it or after it was finished (or published) that you felt the most relief (if that's what you felt)?
Also, did you ever consider changing the names so as not to offend or anger people who may want to hurt you because you dared to speak out?

Robert Goolrick said:

I thought that the book was valuable only if it was absolutely true as I remembered it.

A number of people ask me this question, by the way. I never thought to change the name or fictionalize it, and the writing of it has not really lessened the pain but it has helped me to move on to other things.

I'm less obsessed with the past and more present in the moment.

Thank you for this conversation, for writing the book, and thanks also to Midmorning for bringing this conversation online. I wrote a memoir about the then 15-year-aftermath of surviving a violent rape which happened here in Minneapolis where I live (TELLING:A Memoir of Rape and Recovery, HarperCollins, 1999). I wrote it for many of the same reasons Robert expressed this morning - and primarily because there was almost nothing written at that point about the long-term experience of surviving sexual violence, the "soul murder" he so aptly describes.

As a result, I do a great deal of speaking and meet many survivors of violence and have been waiting and hoping for several books to appear....
1) a memoir that addresses these issues as a work of literature and that considers the long-term story of surviving childhood sexual abuse. So many many people that I meet are carrying this particular and particularly devastating pain and are hoping for a story to give them context for their experience.
2) a memoir written by a man about the aftermath of sexual violence. Most of the memoirs that have appeared in the past ten years have been written by women, mostly about stranger rape, my book among them. While these are truly necessary works, there has been a longer silence in the world of words for men who have experienced sexual abuse.

You have written the book I've been waiting for, I believe. I have ordered your book, I thank you for writing it As you know, there are so many people all around us who have not been able to speak. I'm glad to know about your work. I wish you the very best as you carry this story forward.

Dear Robert, When my son was 13 he was accused by a girl's father of forcing oral sex on his daughter. The father came to us one early morning, not angry, saying that his daughter reported this incident. My son denied ever having any contact with this girl. We consulted a women pastor friend who worked in a women's prison about this and she immediately described this as a jealous father who was abusing his daughter. She said that incest occurs in 80 percent of cases in Roman Catholic families. When we reported this to our neighbor lady who's daughter was a friend of this girl they contacted th priest of the parish who said the family was a pillar of the church. Could you comment about this high incidence in Roman Catholic families?

Jewel T S., wrote:
I suffered profound abuses of all sorts from infancy all the way through adulthood, and you might think that with education and a commitment to peace that I have a lock on doing the right thing, but the truth is that after so much ambiguity in my formative years, I have no idea *what* is right or wrong if there is such an objective thing anyways.

Robert Goolrick replies:

Well I completely with your response. It is extremely difficult to know what is right and wrong, and in terms of child abuse it is hard to know what to do about others. It is easy when it a rape or violent act involved.

Is it a one time thing? Is it a pattern you're watching and what is the appropriate thing to do?

One of the most difficult things growing up as a child who was sexually abuse is that you don't always know what is the right thing to do. Education is no help. I think you just have to feel in your heart what is right and wrong and act accordingly. But it's not easy.

Patricia F. wrote:
You have written the book I've been waiting for, I believe. I have ordered your book, I thank you for writing it As you know, there are so many people all around us who have not been able to speak. I'm glad to know about your work. I wish you the very best as you carry this story forward.

Thank you Patricia. I believe that there is a wide gap in the dialogue about sexual rape and abuse between women and men. I think men are much less likely to write about it than women have some freedom about writing about it. It seems to endanger a man's masculinity and image to describe childhood abuse.

Men write me emails and letters who are breaking a long silence to aknowledge this happened to them. Men who are less likely to write about it are less like to heal. I agree with you.

Milton B wrote:
Could you comment about this high incidence in Roman Catholic families?

Robert Goolrick said:

I'm not a Catholic and I don't feel capable of commenting on why the Catholic Church seems to have produced such a culture of child abuse. Its beyond me. Obviously celibacy has something to do with it.

There's another factor of it: People who are abused as children are likely to abuse their own children. It is conceivable that your son's accuser was one of these people who was abused as a child and grew up to abuse his own children.

I mentioned Milton's point about social standing in "parish who said the family was a pillar of the church."

Robert Goolrick expanded on the answer:

The same could be said of camp counselors or coaches or priests or doctors. Somehow its very likely that the perpetrator is someone that the child looks up to. And I think that being a pillar of the church has nothing to do with your ability to sexually abuse a child.

Patrick from Willmar, MN sent a question: In my experience, the period of the 50s, 60s, repressed sexuality that any healthy discussions were suppressed, resulting in these problems. Thoughts?

Robert Goolrick responds:

I think there's more talk more open discussion now about sexual abuse and sexual matters in general. I don't believe it happened more or less frequently in the 50s and 60s than it does now. I think it is a constant.

As long as there are children there will be abusers of children. We just talk about it more.

I ask: You spoke of believing your mother when she said that you were "wicked, infected, and sick, and capable of causing terrible destruction." Was there a defining moment for you when you came to believe in yourself more than in the family dynamic?

Robert Goolrick said:

No. Part of me will always believe my mother.

I was abused as a child and as an adult by a man very close to my family. I didn't and still don't remember all the abuse that occured until I was an adult age 26. I am looking for guidence on what to do to get the abuser to have some consequense. It is my word against his in the matter of abuse. I do not think I was the only one that he could have abused and he is also a highschool teacher. could you give me some suggestions on how to begin taking somekind of legal action. I have confronted the person who did this and asked him to quit his job and seek help; neither of whitch I think he has done. Please give me some feedback. I listened to most of the show and can relate to everything that was said.

Dear Mr. Goolrick,

I just finished your book a few weeks ago; I couldn't put it down, it was so captivating and beautifully written. Thank you for writing it and presenting this gift to the world.

What I'd like to know is, how do you feel about the fact that in this interview and I will assume in your book tour, the "secret" - the abuse you endured, is the focus of these conversations? While reading the book, it is not revealed till 3/4 of the way in, basically near the end of the memoir. By NOT knowing but being lead us through your life, the good, bad and ugly, both of your parents' and your own, learning about the abuse was like being sucker-punched in the stomach. It's brilliant storytelling, editing and layout of the book. I feel sorry for the listeners, because they now will (I fear) not be able to experience the book the same way. How do feel about this as the author? Any comments/concerns regarding this issue? Thank you

Jonpaul of Eagan, MN sent a question: Have humans always been sexually abusing young children or is it something about modern culture?


Robert Goolrick responds:

No I'm sure its always happened. In some cultures it happens in an instutionilized way. In some Eastern and African cultures it happens without taboo. And it happens without pyschological consequences to the children.

However in Western culture is it considered a great sin and a great crime. It is worn g to take a childhood away from a child. There's no way around that fact.

How do you start to heal? Where do you start? I feel like my life is pretty good right now and maybe it could be better, I could be better, but then I also feel like I shouldn't push my luck and I should feel fortunate to have a career, loving family and friends. But those terrible childhood years are always there with me, some memories as vivid as if it were yesterday.

thanks everyone, for sharing.

Derek L. wrote:
could you give me some suggestions on how to begin taking somekind of legal action. I have confronted the person who did this and asked him to quit his job and seek help; neither of whitch I think he has done. Please give me some feedback.

Robert Goolrick answered:

I wish I could help. The only advice I could give would be to speak to a lawyer. Uhmmm there is probably some gay and lesbian advocacy group where you live that can give you better advice than I could give you.

I think confronting your attacker is an extremely brave and commendable act, and I hope it brought you some measure of peace. I wish you well in your search and I hope for some vindication for you.

Stephanie C. wrote:
What I'd like to know is, how do you feel about the fact that in this interview and I will assume in your book tour, the "secret" - the abuse you endured, is the focus of these conversations?

Robert Goolrick responds:

Thank you for reading the book and enjoying it, I'm glad you did.

I knew that the rape would end up being the focus of the book, which is why I buried it near the end, but it's kind of like unavoidable in discussing the book. It becomes ultimately the point of the book, which is the way I intended it to be.

The best reviews of the book - to me - is to say that there was a secret to be revealed and it was. But once it is out, it is out and there's nothing I can do about it. But thanks again.

The hour has come to an end, and I'd like to say a great thank you to Mr. Robert Goolrick.

He notes you can email him directly. "At inquiry@algonquin.com - they'll forward it to me."