Moveon.org ran a full page add in the New York Times yesterday attacking General David Petraeus. Petraeus is best known as the man behind the the troop surge strategy currently being employed in Iraq, as well as the top commander of U.S. operations in that country. The ad was meant to coincide with the general's appearance before the House Armed Services and International Relations committees, which also took place yesterday. The MoveOn ad accused the general of making misleading statements about the war and called gave the general a new nickname, General Betray Us.
The generals appearance before Congress follows a series of negative reports on Iraq. A recent National Intelligence Estimate and a report by the Government Accountability Office both indicated that progress in Iraq has been limited at best. Petraeus acknowledged the reports in his testimony, but claimed that the reports did not take into account the last month to two months of action in Iraq. That is when the most progress was made, he said.
For MoveOn and other critics of the war in Iraq the general's report on Iraq is filled with misleading statements designed to counter the less than inspiring facts found in these previous reports. More lies dictated by the Bush administration, they say.
You can view the ad and MoveOn's justifications for running it at www.MoveOn.org
What do you think? Was MoveOn's ad appropriate? Do you think Petraeus is a credible witness? Is progress being made in Iraq or not?
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Comments: 78
You mention though that it is timed to coincide with the General's testimony before congress. Is there any question in anyone's mind that the testimony is timed to coincide with 9/11?
I highly recommend yesterday's excellent "On Point" show regarding fear and politics @
http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2007/09/20070910_a_main.asp
I usually wont read political junk mail
"Is progress being made in Iraq or not?"
Progress toward what? I have no clear idea of what constitutes victory so how the hell should I know what constitutes progress?
BUT, I do have some trust in Ryan Crocker. He told Powell before the war that it would basically go the way it has. He was there in 2003 to help establish an interim government and then he got the heck out of there. There is talk that he knew the US plan was going to be a disaster and told them so, but wasn't listened to so he resigned. Now, he is seeing a little glimmer of hope and I believe that he knows what he is talking about. Although I'm all for troop withdrawal, I suppose I'll trust Crocker that right now, there is a little bit of hope that things can get better there.
Patraeus is not making progress no matter what he says because the ONLY measure of progress for the surge according to Congress, the President, and the Iraqi President is whether or not the Iraqi government stepped up to and began addressing their responsibilities, and virtually everyone says that no they did not.
Ruth makes the mistake that many of us make by uncritically accepting the swapping of positions by the General and the President. Going in the surge was all about political reconciliation and progress diplomatically. Since that failed utterly, rather than admit to failure they simply moved the goalpost so they could try and claim at least "progress" if not "victory". Of course a solid and quantifiable definition of "victory" would be helpful. Mr. Bush agreed to and praised a set of benchmarks which the Iraqi government failed to even try to reach, yet he still claims "progress" because he changed the target.
Also, the military surge was a means to an end - the end being that the Iraqi government could get meaningful benchmarks accomplished. That has not happened in any way, shape or form, no matter how you look at it. We're wasting our time by sidelining that main focus to look at things like the decline in violence in Anbar Province. As a general, he can report on things like that. As a general, he has no basis whatsoever to inform the Congress on the major goal. I think the GAO report did that pretty well.
THAT should be the ultimate measure of progress on the goal, not Petraeus' report. It's the ultimate bait and switch game that this administration has been doing to Congress and the American people all along. This ad and the commentary on yesterday's testimonies keep up that charade altogether.
Let's face it, GEN Petraeus has been feeding us happy stories that don't reflect reality. I'd remind everyone that Petraeus wrote an op/ed three years ago telling us how well the training of the Iraqi Army was going and that soon they'd take over security responsibilities.
General Petraeus is doing a difficult job, and he is reporting the status of that job to you traitorous idiots honestly and candidly. You hateful, disgusting lefto-fascist, coddler's of terror, just can't stand the thought of America winning, so have to make excuses for any positive news.
Here is a news flash idiots! The Demonocratic Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Hehehe. Why? Because they are preaching the same idiotic rhetoric that you are spewing onto these pages.
Keep up the good work, I am anxious to see the backlash thats coming because of your parties divisive and spiteful rhetoric, and traitorous behavior.
You DO know they changed the definition of violence:
The Los Angeles Times reports that people killed in car bombings don't count.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-surge4sep04,0,2280359,full.story?coll=la-home-center
The Washington Post reports that victims shot in the face don't count.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/05/AR2007090502466.html
The Center for Strategic and International Studies reports that Shi'a vs. Shi'a and Sunni vs. Sunni violence doesn't count.
http://csis.org/media/csis/pubs/080607_iraq-strategicpatience.pdf
What a shocker. It LOOKS like our Propagandist-in-chief has ordered a four-star general to mislead Congress. ...and he'll do it too. Watch and see. The sheeple, of course, will follow.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Interestingly a number of these individuals raised the fact that polls revealed that more Americans trust the general than distrust him. The poll I found at www.pollingreport.com indicated that 52 percent of Americans polled view the general favorably and 17 percent viewed him unfavorably. But 31 percent were either unsure or had never heard of the lead commander of U.S. forces in Iraq. So the margin of actual support is pretty thin.
Why do you think that Americans tend to trust the military more than any other institution in our society? The military employs public relations specialists just like political parties and organizations like MoveOn. Some would say the military is just as fond of "spin" as any other group out there. The Pentagon has been criticized for not keeping count of civilian casualties for example. Is it lying when you simply don't look for disturbing facts?
What is the goal in Iraq? How do we determine success? Well, although no one is saying what will determine that the U.S. can withdraw from or declare victory in Iraq, we can look back at the initial goals: remove Saddam (done), rebuild Iraq (nope), and create a stable democracy in a unified state of Iraq (nope). No doubt the military is great at winning a normal war, but they have a pretty bad record when it comes to occupation and nation building in the Post WWII era.
Because we are a nation of abdicators - we give up our rights on a daily basis because:
- leaders tell us to;
- we are uneducated about our civic duties and don't know any better;
- we are extremely lazy citizens and can't be bothered to spend the time and energy it would take to participate and inform ourselves and demand good leadership;
- we are naturally submissive personalities and would rather hero worship than deal with people on a mature, intelligent level;
- ALL OF THE ABOVE.
I am personally disgusted by the results of these polls and some of the comments I have seen on Gather and in the media. We don't deserve our rights and a democratic form of government anymore. Just give us an iPod, some sports channels, an American Idol, some Terminator movies, and a bible on the nightstand and we'll be happy.
The Margin of heads buried in the sand is really high though! Still far higher approval ratings than Nancy Pelosi! Hehehe.
I think the 31 percent is proof of Sheryl O's argument above.
Bruce - I do care and I do want to understand, but when I hear responses like, "The bible tells me so" and "Bush is our leader and we should stand behind him no matter what" and "I don't care if they look at my emails and listen to my phonecalls - I haven't done anything wrong", then, yes, I get a little pessimistic about the future of this democracy.
that's pretty simplistic, too, don't you think? and a little insulting. i don't care if people agree with me or not, but i do expect that they will be discriminating and thoughtful - not just repeat slogans and phrases over and over again like robots. a little thoughtfulness and imagination and reasoning would be very welcomed.
A load of crap, opposed to what you seem to think it is, is that comment you spit out up there.
David, you raise valid questions, including the one that prevented me from donating to have the ad printed.
My personal views on the ad aside.
I don't think that Patraeus can legitimately be portrayed as a betrayer. In that regard the ad is an attack on a man of principal and honor. BUT I do think his report is filtered through rose colored glasses, and vetted by his boss, George Bush.
We have two problems. Foremost is WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE IN IRAQ. There is no noble cause. It just does not exist, never did exist and cannot be forced to exist.
Second, to accomplish the IGNOBLE CAUSE OF CONQUEST, We have to conquer Iraq.
The republiCONs simply do not care how many Americans die and how much debt treasure is stolen from the American public in this illegal, unwise, unnecessary debacle. They want to drag this out so that they can hand it off to the next president. Meanwhile, our soldiers continue to be slaughtered, innocent civilians continue to be slaughtered, we continue to ignore the REAL al Qaeda, and we fall further and further into an unwinnable abyss.
" Anything funded by sorros is crap, period"
But anything funded by Murdoch, Moon, and Scaiffe is downright dandy stuff. What an ignorant, foolish comment.
"The Demonocratic Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Hehehe. Why?"
Because, they have not done what they were elected into office to do; end the republiCON disaster in Iraq. The public is sick and tired of this republiCON occupation, and wants it to end. NOW.
Carol - Yes, thankfully we have intelligent leaders like President Bush capable of making such meaningful statements as "Bring it on!" and "We are kicking a**!"
General Betray-Us attempts to use the same sloganeering, but misses the whole point of sloganeering, which is to attack the problem, not ridicule someone who is just doing their job the best they can. What do you expect a general to do? This is not even as effective as the swift boat BS because at least the swift boat story have a narrative with real people behind it. People that I personally disagree with.
I think move on has no coherent set of values and that is its problems. It is the kind of thing that people disparage when they say a politician goes with the polls, that is all Move on is, it does not lead, it is more or less just a mob.
Who on Earth could this be?
"This is not even as effective as the swift boat BS because at least the swift boat story have a narrative with real people behind it."
You're comparing the lying propaganda hit piece to a factual narrative that has name calling in it?
"...it is more or less just a mob. "
As opposed to the BA which is, more or less, the mob.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I just LOVE my president speakin' movie talk that his citizens can relate to about a war where so many have died and so much money has been spent! Helps me separate the good guys from the bad guys. And, I love it when he puts on his cowboy boots and hat, and spends the day at the ranch clearin' brush. Boy, can I respect that - just eat it up!
What Americans ARE, is tired of liberal rhetoric, and the huge investment in undermining this effort for their own political gain.
The Congress is ineffective, not because they can't end the war, but because they are so far left and out of touch with Americans, that they don't know which direction to go on any issue.
The Democrats have taken hold of fear and hate, and molded it into a political platform, but the platform is weak and faulty. It relies on Americans thinking in a way that only Radical Liberals can think. It demands we suspend reason, and believe Liberals have a solution, or that "pull out now" is a solution.
Of course nobody wants war. But I, and many others like me, understand that we can't just pull out.
Let's assume for a minute, that more Americans actually do want us to get out now. When did this become a "majority rules" country? Do we really want to go down that path? It would be a slippery slope, and devasting for most liberal causes.
You're clueless. Moveon.org is not attached to any political party, fool. As for dems delivering, check your facts. In spite of having to deal with the most abusive, partisan obstructionism congress has ever seen, and a pig head in the white house, they've actually managed to pass several of their key initiatives.
What they've FAILED to do, and the issue that is driving congress' poll numbers south, is bring an end to the illegal republiCON war in Iraq, and hold the criminals that brought it to us accountable.
"
The Congress is ineffective, not because they can't end the war, but because they are so far left and out of touch with Americans, that they don't know which direction to go on any issue."
Clueless. Check your facts. Every single issue on the public's mind is a progressive issue today. Sorry. Your failed ideology has been rejected for their failures, and the rejection is flat out across the board. There's not a single issue that the public sides with republiCONs on anymore. Your posers had a chance, and you failed miserably. Instead of providing effective, responsible governance, your losers attempted to bring us a Christian Taliban and the most heavily corrupted, incompetent government this country has ever suffered under. You're done.
"The Democrats have taken hold of fear and hate, and molded it into a political platform, but the platform is weak and faulty"
What planet are you on? It's the republiCONs who've been governing with fear, lies, and manipulations ever since 9/11, and they've been campaigning with hatred and divisiveness ever since they embraced the racist south, when democrats abandoned racism. You're seriously delusional, but then, so is the rest of your party, so at least you're in the right group. That delusion is precisely what's going to keep your diseased party of criminals and losers in the firm minority for decades to come.
" The dems in congress are leaning on 2 year old polls that say most Americans want the war over,"
You're clueless. Check your facts. 2/3 of Americans want this illegal republiCON occupation ended NOW. You're in the minority on this one, sparky, just like you are on every other issue of the day.
They hate this country and will do anything and everything to tear it down every chance they get.
They talk out both sides of their mouths.
They'll be telling you that they support the troops in then in the same breath they're voting for mooonbat Democrats that do nothing but vote against military spending all day long or they're telling the military they're no t welcome in their city like the fucking fruit loops (and I do mean fruity) out in San Fransisco.
The Democrats certainly have abandoned racism as Clark says.... I mean it's not as if the Democrats have a former Grand Wizard of the KKK among their ranks now is it.
Hypocritical, insignificant riff raff.
Sooner or later normal Americans are going to get fed up with the left wing rhetoric and propaganda though.
Soon I hope .
Try reading an article from Rob Port on June 11 tiltled "A Marine on Progrees in Iraq and the Media's Refusal to Cover it."
In the article Rob Port quoted a Marine who had served in Iraq who happened to offer the opinion that there were actually positive things going on in Iraq and that the media just wasn't covering it.
What does Clark Kent do? He calls Rob Port and the Marine radical fringe freaks. Imagine that. Mr. left wing armchair general Clark Kent actually had the nerve to call a Marine who is serving in Iraq a radical fringe freak.
It just goes to show what a truly despicable and classless human being Clark Kent is.
Check out the article. It's worth a read.
So you and your pals are all talk and no action ,huh?
Typical republifool .
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way Congress is handling its job?"
.ALL adults
Approve 23 %
Disapprove 66%
Unsure 11%
"Do you approve or disapprove of the job the Democratic leaders in Congress are doing?"
.
Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
7/25-29/07 33 54 13
"Do you approve or disapprove of the job the Republican leaders in Congress are doing?"
.
Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
9/21 - 10/4/06 33 56 11
As you can see, overall the rating is 23% approval, But the approval of Republicans is ten points higher, as is the approval of Democrats.
Now when you compare the presidential job approval rating the variation is not according to his party. After all he is a Republican but according to the Respondent's party. But the polling of the Congressional approval rating is NOT according to the Respondent's party.
In the overall ratings, Democrats have a slightly higher approval of congress than do Republicans, but the variation is within the margin of error.
I haven't a clue how to put a face on all this, it could just be that Americans don't like to be governed.
You make us so hot when you call us names, sweetie buns. It really shows us how bright you are, and you know how brains turn us on.
"They hate this country and will do anything and everything to tear it down every chance they get."
I guess that must be why we want national security, a rational balanced federal budget, Osama behind bars, al Qaeda crushed, safe drinking water and food, rule of law re-established, an end to political and election corruption and fraud, and an end to illegal wars and profiteering. Yep, we sure do hate America, alrighty.
"They'll be telling you that they support the troops in then in the same breath they're voting for mooonbat Democrats that do nothing but vote against military spending all day long"
I must've missed this. When did the democrats vote to end military spending again? You might want to have a look-see at what the senate just passed last week, sparky.
"The Democrats certainly have abandoned racism as Clark says.... I mean it's not as if the Democrats have a former Grand Wizard of the KKK among their ranks now is it."
David Duke is a wing nut, wing nut. Maybe you're not so bright after all.
"Hypocritical, insignificant riff raff. "
If you can't love yourself, you've got more serious issues that we all thought. Yes, you're hypocritical, and overflowing with incessant, unending streams of frothy bullshit, but calling YOURSELF names is a sign of really serious mental instability.
" When are you leaving for Iraq dana ?"
He's not, and they wouldn't want him over there anyway. He's a cowardly little pussy, who'd piss himself the moment he got yanked away from his mommy for basic training. We saw pussified little shitwads like him when I was in the service, and they never lasted through the training. Dickless, soulless, mindless, weak, cardboard people don't amount to anything in life, especially as soldiers.
"In the article Rob Port quoted a Marine who had served in Iraq who happened to offer the opinion that there were actually positive things going on in Iraq and that the media just wasn't covering it."
You don't even deserve to read an article about a marine, disease. You're a fucking disgrace to this country and every man and woman who's ever served in the military.
" Imagine that. Mr. left wing armchair general Clark Kent actually had the nerve to call a Marine who is serving in Iraq a radical fringe freak."
Imagine that, I have an opinion about a radical fringe freak who happens to be a marine. How dare I? What do I think this is? America?
Keep talking, pussy. You're smearing your own shit all over yourself everytime your mommy lets you type on her computer. Big, tough-talking, shit-for-brains, coward. Full of toxic verbal assault when you're sitting safely in mommy's computer chair. Too fucking cowardly to stand up and take part in the illegal war that you support. Too fucking stupid to know what a fool you are. You're pathetic.
But, I have to admit that I'm damn glad you're here, and that you're singing the praises of the republiCON party. You're doing a terrific job of representing to all just what a diseased, twisted, sick-fuck party of losers that collapsed failure of an ideology has become. Thanks for that.
That's because republican approval ratings of congress haven't changed, while democrats and independent ratings for congress have fallen dramatically. It's a direct result of the democrats failing to bring an end to the illegal republican war in Iraq.
My analogy: Suppose your employer had asked you to make a detailed presentation to the press about a controversial project you were in charge of? What would you say?
Duhhh
Although I oppose the war I think that it might have had a positive outcome if this had been the general approach in Iraq. Instead the majority of American resources have been spent on military operations and Iraq remains in shambles. America made the same mistake in Somalia. In each case, while our initial intentions may have been to rebuild a shattered nation and create a new democracy, once violence broke out it became just another military operation ensuring the alienation of the populations were supposed to be saving.
Because we are a nation of abdicators - we give up our rights on a daily basis because:
- leaders tell us to;
- we are uneducated about our civic duties and don't know any better;
- we are extremely lazy citizens and can't be bothered to spend the time and energy it would take to participate and inform ourselves and demand good leadership;
- we are naturally submissive personalities and would rather hero worship than deal with people on a mature, intelligent level;
- ALL OF THE ABOVE.
I would add that I believe this willingness to submit often stems from being raised in an environment of teachings like: "Lord I am not worthy to receive you but say the word and I shall be healed." And from being convinced that it is wise to live on blind faith, accepting the unbelievable in return for a promise of something glorious, much father down the line, after a life of sufficient submission and suffering. The War on Truth, makes it easy to sell other wars.
Jeepers, that hurts. I'll try to find some way to get by without your witty, intelligent responses to my comments, though it's surely not going to be easy at all.
Btw, this isn't just a cheap tactic to avoid having to explain why you've been unable to refute what I've said as usual, is it?
check out my short article:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977112632
Some leading neuroscientists have basically refuted your moniker - seems you can't be both "open minded" and a "conservative". Judging from your comments it would seem true, also.
> It is pretty clear that the goal of ending the war in Iraq unites progressives
I do not agree with this. I think there are a lot of progressives .. well, maybe not alot, but me for example, I am for a very progressive agenda, but I do not think it behooves us to be national progressive and isolationist. I think the war, as bungled as it has been by the Bush adminstration and Rumsfeld needs to be picked up and redefined.
I believe we are going to attack Iran in the very near future, possibly before the end of the year, or just after. To spend so much money and get so far in this effort to throw it away just is not going to happen.
The greatest good and stability to the world could come from breaking us the terror in the Middle East so that people can start to build their lives again, and not just ignoring it while it gets worse as long as we get our oil.
Iran's government and most of the other governments are the problem. Islam is the other problem, the radical kind. What do we want to wait for before we do something about this? Escalating nuclear terrorism, expansionism and unification of radical Islam?
I just see no other way to deal with Iran but to keep pressuring it, as we did with Iraq, and hit them little by little until their break, then instead of wasting our troops and money we give them the choice, like we did with Iraq. Get rid of your leaders, or you will be isolated. Another 10-15 years and they will be soft enough and miserable enough to either invade or change regime ... and if Iraq can be made productive, they would have some incentive to shape up.
It is a pity, Iran is a very nice country with smart people. I would hate to see a war happen anywhere, but what has been going on, and escalating in the Middle East is even worse.
Move On I take with a grain of salt.
While Boyd and Blades play us
And attempt to sway us,
Portraying Petraeus
As a man who'd betray us;
Their fiddle they play us
Is a fake Amadeus,
Giving time to repay us
To the one who would slay us,
To the one who'd fillet us,
Who'd quarter and splay us;
To the Devil who lurks in the East Himalayas.
No, the ones who betray US -
Say "move on," yet delay us;
They blog and survey us,
undermine and dismay us.
But they err and misplay us,
With attempts to wordplay us;
See, in their goal to downplay us,
divide and decay us - in the end it's their words - their words - that betray us.
Why, isn't that treason?
Hmmm. What say us?
I know. Ask General Petraeus.
We need to Impeach both Bush and Cheney, and take them out of power. They have done nothing but lie to all of us from the very begining. We need to sweep all of his cronies out with the same broom. They have done nothing but hurt this country from the word go. They are untrustwrothy liers that have done nothing but line their Rich Republican friends pockets through war profitering. All of Halburtons board and its CEO should all go to prison for Embezzleing US tax payers moneys sent over there to rebuild that county, not to line their pockets. General Betrayus. If the shoe fits !!!
He swore an oath to protect the Constitution and the People of the United states. Not an Oath of Loyalty to the office of the President, or to MR Bush. He BETRAYED that trust with the lies he told to Congress. He should be Court Marshalled and Cashered with a Dishonorable Discharge ! ! ! MoveOn was RightOn with there Question. If you read the ad. IT said General Betray Us ? with a question mark and it was printed before the mentioned General testified, Falsely, before the Congress. It was a question and the General answered the question himself. With lies and half truths.
With actions unbecoming an officer. NO one put a gun to his head to lie. He did it himself, and thus Betrayed the trust of the American People and his oath to US ! !
He has to stand on tip toes to see the true world. Thats how deep he is in Bush's pocket. Oh and the comment about Bush being the generals employer is dead wrong. He may have the Dubious honor of being the civilian "Comander in Chief" but he is not any Generals employer. Even the top ones. The US Army is his employer and they are supposed to serve and protect folks like you and me and our interests at home and abroad. NOT the Presidents. The president can have him fired but all that means is that he would be moved to a new post. IT dosent mean he would be out of the Army. The Generals who spoke up all retired rather than face the unfair retribution of this Administration. And all of them spoke up AGAINST this war and the sloppy handling of the Non-Stratagy that Bush and friends have handed them from the begining. The war in Iraq was nothing but a personal Vendeta against Sadam by Bush. It had nothing to do with the War on Terrorism or 9/11. Sadam and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and everyone keeps forgetting that. The true monster is still scott free and thumbing his nose at us every 9/11. Dose anyone remember a little monster by the name of Ossama ? ? ? Iraq was the biggest lie perpetrated on the American People and her military scence Vietnam, and now it looks like it may last longer than Vietnam. It was the wrong target from the begining. Bush and his friends made sure that everyone forgot who the real monster was by diverting us with all their lies about Sadam, just so this so called President cound get his man. Oh he got him alright and they hanged him, but Hello ? ? ? I think the simple fact that Ossama is still out there and planing horrible acts to kill us should make everyone rethink following the lier in the white house into another fruitless war in IRAN ! ! !