Very few of the Ten Commandments have anything to do with the law and they are really quite inappropriate for the legal setting.
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy. Honor thy father and mother. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not give false evidence against your neighbour. Thou shalt not covet your neighbour's goods. Thou shalt not covet his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Notice that I have eliminated the numbers, because of course their are Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish versions of the 10 Commandments. Which of course leads us to the next conundrum: which version of the 10 Commandments do you propose to hang?
Funny, I thot this person was well educated and familiar with US History, apparently I wrong? Or maybe hes just being devils advocate? The originial pledge went: ""I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." "indivisible," which recalled the Civil War and the triumph of federal union over states' rights, and "liberty and justice for all," which was supposed to strike a balance between equality and individual freedom. By the 1920s, reciting the pledge had become a ritual in many public schools.
Since the founding, critics of America's secularism have repeatedly sought to break down the church-state wall. After the Civil War, for example, some clergymen argued that the war's carnage was divine retribution for the founders' refusal to declare the United States a Christian nation, and tried to amend the Constitution to do so.
The efforts to bring God into the state reached their peak during the so-called "religious revival" of the 1950s. It was a time when Norman Vincent Peale grafted religion onto the era's feel-good consumerism in his best-selling The Power of Positive Thinking; when Billy Graham rose to fame as a Red-baiter who warned that Americans would perish in a nuclear holocaust unless they embraced Jesus Christ; when Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists.
"When this country was founded, it was created with the belief that freedom of religion met freedom to say and do what you want"
Well yea, but not endorsed through government agencies.
I don't have an issue with the 10 commandments in court, I have issue with it being the ONLY religious object in court. All or none. Tell me a Christian person wouldn't throw a fit over the Wiccan rede being placed front and center in a courthouse? Or Muslim tenets? I really think political correctedness has gone too far in relation to religion, but I can see why it upsets people. I personally disagree with "One Nation Under God" only because it's false. We are not one nation under one god, we are a melting pot with many beliefs and gods, which is one of the greatest things about this country. "One Nation Under God" detracts from that freedom for me. Does it affect me, though? Not really. I don't have to utter those words during the Pledge, and I don't sit and examine my currency to the point that it offends me. It doesn't threaten my freedom to practice whatever religion I wish. Nor does having the 10 commandments in the courthouse. In the spirit that separation of church and state was written, no, I don't think it belongs there. I think Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in his grave about now.
I think so and they should be in the schools too. It seems like morality fell apart when they were not up for everybody to see. But now there are too many religions and cultures these days that it just will never work that way again.
michelle religion does not own morality. Im pretty shocked and disappointed at the blatant ignorance of some people on this website. Why would you want to believe something so ignorant and false and not educate yourselves on your own country so you dont look like a complete f*ktard when someone writes an article on this issue? Seriously, some of yalls comments I would expect on some fundamentalist islamists website or something from the 1500's. Educate yourselves for crying out loud, pick up a reputable book other than your fairy tale bibles and read.. learn about science and evolution, that will explain where morality actually comes from.
Michelle, I applaud your thinking but totally disagree with it. I haven't heard many folks telling you or others to hide their beliefs. what I do hear a lot of and agree with is because you believe it does not mean "I" must abide by it or live by your belief. My problem is I have no trouble with your believing whatever it is but it should not be stuck up in my face all the time nor should I have to constantly be dealing with your belief. My suggestion is that you go back and clarify what the constitution said about religion and freedom of speach. There is no intent I can find in the constitution which allows favoritism to any religion. So please do follwow your religious beliefs but allow me mine or none at all. Leave the 10 commandments out of the court house. Hang them in your own yard, house or church but not in a publically supported venue.
C A, people like you could be transported back in time and hear it directly from the horses mouth about the wall between the church and state and you would still not believe it. Thomas Jefferson and John Adams themselves could rise from the grave and tell you that there must me a separation between the government and the church and that Freedom of Religion simple means that... freedom to believe what you want but the government will not endorse any particular religion.
Peter, you shameless point whore....I mean mongerer. : - )
I agree with Mary, who agrees with TA and Ellynn, who agree with all reasonable, educated true citizens of a democracy. Of course it doesn't belong in a government office, no more than a Koran, or a Torah or Hogwart's Book of Spells.
C A , your just horny for a theocracy, and clearly thats un-american and not what was intended for this nation. Maybe you need to pick up and move to the middle east.
No separtion of Church and State I hate to admit it but True American is right here besides we don't want another era like the dark ages. Oh except that the Bible is a fairy tale. It's a history folks a guide to live by .
I love controversy. It makes me giddy inside :D Seriously, I bet most people who say "leave 'em up there" would be pitching a fit if a Wiccan group decided to put the Rede up in the same courthouse.
No. Absolutely not. By the way "one nation under god" was added by General Eisenhower to differentiate us from those "godless commies." It wasn't in the original pledge and breaks the cadence of the poetry.
The Pledge of Allegiance isn't the issue, it's being forced to say it, along with the aforementioned, "One Nation Under God" crap. I don't like the idea of anyone forcing my child to say anything, whether I happen to agree with it or not. They may not be adults, but forcing them to say something impedes on their free will. It impedes on your childs free will as well. I would encourage them to say it, if I believed in it as you do, but I would be up in arms about the school not giving the option to refuse. What good little soldiers our children will be. Oh, wait, I home school. Lucky me that my children will be allowed to think for themselves instead of being spoon fed propaganda by rote.
The motto was used on five cent pieces in the 1800s, and The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.
BTW, while i am not Wiccan myself, I do support their rede, which is simply, "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." Simple enough, but I wouldn't want anyone to force people into saying it.
yes that is true, i should have specified paper currency. God was put on coinage because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. The term God appeared and disappeared from the 5 cent coin. No big deal. Its well documented that the term is unconstitutional and has been allowed to remain on all currency, but I dont know for how much longer.
Josh, actually it is on the outside edge. Look I am not a fan of the ten commandments, no need for them to be in the courthouse. the term god is a little generic and even though our founders came from all kinds of faiths they all invoked "god" in the founding. To me ten commandments no. In GOD WE TRUST, it is okay but not a must for me.
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.
Ah, the history revisionists strike again. Look, the Puritans came over here to escape religious persecution so that they could practice their own brand of religion. They in no way were into freedom of religion as they themselves persecuted people from other sects in their midst (i.e., Quakers). Most of the early settlements were for commercial purposes. The American Revolution came about because the colonists did not want England to have free reign over their finances (i.e., Stamp Tax).....it had nothing whatsoever to do with religious practices.
In 1801 the Danbury Baptist Assoc. sent a letter to Thomas Jefferson. Seems they were a bit alarmed by a rumor of a "national" religion. In his reply, Mr. Jefferson stated "I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
The Danburys were satisfied, as this statement made it clear that the "wall" was one-way in its protection of them from government interference.
In 1878, the letter - which I might add is NOT part of the Constitution, nor is it part of any law - was brought up again in the case of Reynolds vs. United States. The entirety of this letter was cited, and according to the Court, "wall of separation between Church and State" meant, "Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinions, but was left free to reach [only those religious] actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order." The Court ruled against the Mormon practice of polygamy and bigamy because the Justices considered it to be 'subversive of good order'.
Again the letter is dragged out in the 1947 case of Everson vs. Board of Education, only this time the eight words "a wall of separation between Church and State" were parsed from the original letter, without contextual reference, and twisted into a new meaning - a separation of religion from public life.
In 1962, the Supreme Court, in the case of Engel vs. Vitale, redefined "church" to mean "a religious activity in public", and the assault on the roots of Americanism began.
True American, In God We Trust was actually added during the McCarthy Hysteria, was it not? I believe in the end he was renounced for the anal-retentive idiot he was, but the decree stuck.
The church must be separate from the State Duh does any one rememvber there history. The Pope ruled and had his goons murder people who felt differently from what he preached. The common People couldn't own a Bible Martin Luther any of this ring a bell DUH
No, forcing the Jewish Religion upon Christians is Un-American. (im just kidding, but the religious zealots here are probably getting their rifles ready just the same) (but im not kidding about no) (no, they don't belong in a public building dedicated to the LAW, not religious law, but the laws of our Nation).
Not sure what to say to this. I am one of those people who simply doesn't care. It doesn't matter to me if it's there or if it isn't there. Seriously, does having the 10 Commandments in the Courthouse, "In God We Trust" on our money, and "One nation under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance really change anything? It's not like it suddenly makes our leaders less money-hungry and selfish, our people stop committing crimes, our country as a whole any better than if they weren't there.
Actually, I think having religious items in goverment facilities is quite hypocritical, as our government is ANYTHING but moral or righteous (and that goes for ANY religious beliefs, christian or not). If anything, we should be more worried about our leaders conducting selfish and immoral dealings while hiding behind the mask of Christianity and God.
People seriously need to research the religious preference or lack there of, of our founders. There is just as much support for the founders making america out to be a pagan nation: http://www.nobeliefs.com/pagan.htm Really, this country was founded to escape the state religion of england and elsewhere. Lets keep it that way
Ten Commandments in the court house? Which version of the movie? I like the silent one better.
Seriously, I think it's very simple. A completely secular government is the best guarantee of religious freedom. People are free to practice whatever religion they want and government has no say in it whatsoever.
Thanks to Sheryl for pointing out that the American Revolution was a middle and upper class one. England's Mercantilist economic policy was hurting the farmers, manufactures, and merchants. It was all about freedom to make money. It had some good side effects, though.
Another thing to consider is that a lot of Christian moral principles come from Judaism and Aristotle. The Catholic Church, in the Middle Ages, was very big on Aristotle. The protestant sects that split off in the Reformation kept most of the moral standards but differed a lot on the role of faith and other things that had nothing to do with morality.
I don't have a real good, long answer. Yes, it should be in the courthouses, schools, and govenment buildings throughout the country, and get this, I am not a religious man.
If you believe the book the book says "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars" No the ten commandments are not appropriate in a court house or any other government building. It IS appropriate in a church and you will seldom see them on the walls of a church.
The laws we live by are based on the laws on England and those were based on the ten commandments. Of course that was way back in the beginning. Therefore I think it safe to say the ten commandments are already in the courthouse. Don't need a plack on the wall.
For all of you amature theologins - The ten commandments are the law of moses. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and specifically said "A new commandment I give unto you to love God with all of you heart and your neighbor as youself". That may not be accurite but that is what he said. The "Do unto others etc." was an intrepretation of that statement by Ben Franklin in Poor Richards Almanic.
Law as we know it here, i. e. the European law we have in the US, goes back to Roman law. Christianity became the Roman state religion pretty late in their history, when the empire was in a serious state of decline.
British common law has a lot of antecedents in the Norse and Germanic common law since the Nor(se)man conquest followed the Anglo Saxon conquest which followed the Danish conquest. The Scandinavian countries started to adopt Christianity in the eleventh century.
Marianne K has got it right for a start - we should keep the 10 Commandments in our hearts. But isn't putting laws from a holy book up on a courthouse like having laws dictated by a mullah (read "pastor")?
I don't believe that our country was founded on the principals of Christianity. Our country was founded on the basis of personal freedom from tyranny and oppression, on the belief that all men are truely "created equal". In the Constitution, neither god nor any reference to a supreme being is mentioned. It is a purely secular document. Many of the founding fathers would not have considered themselves "Christians", but deists. Thomas Jefferson, for example, was himself a deist who was opposed to many traditional Christian doctrines, in particular beliefs about the supernatural.
Why do you need society to reinforce your religion for you all the time and bolster your faith? This is the million dollar question. And how many of the people screaming about ten commandments in public places have them hanging in every room of their homes or in their cars? If they have such a hard time remembering the rules, they could tattoo them on their arm.
Our country was founded on the basis of personal freedom from tyranny and oppression, on the belief that all men are truely "created equal". And boy are we failing.
Whether courthouse or any other public building, we need to put them all up with equal size and honor or take them all down. Can you imagine how the fundies would screech if the Satanist pentgram was right next to their cross? So many Christians are claiming discrimination, yet the only thing they have lost is their ability to harasss and intimade others....and I starred you.
ok, Carol. The Book of Spells can go up there with everything else. : - )
Can't people swear on any book they want, like the Koran? I thought the first Muslim sworn into Congress used the Koran rather than the Bible during his swearing in ceremony. And if an Atheist puts their hand on the Bible and swears to tell the truth, can they then lie?
Let's separate historical tradition with the real meaning of our republic and Constitution, folks. I think we have evolved past the days when, say, women were considered second-class citizens. There are many vestiges that remain in our culture from "the day" (which, by the way, according to Dane Cook was a Wednesday), and some we can't even remember why someone in the past started doing it that way. Doesn't mean that we can't change things to reflect a more mature understanding of what "equal under the law" means.
NOPE! Separation of church and state. The bit about God was put in the pledge years after it was originally written. Shouldn't be on the $ either as far as I'm concerned
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Comments: 87
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor thy father and mother.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not give false evidence against your neighbour.
Thou shalt not covet your neighbour's goods. Thou shalt not covet his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Notice that I have eliminated the numbers, because of course their are Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish versions of the 10 Commandments. Which of course leads us to the next conundrum: which version of the 10 Commandments do you propose to hang?
Funny, I thot this person was well educated and familiar with US History, apparently I wrong? Or maybe hes just being devils advocate? The originial pledge went: ""I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." "indivisible," which recalled the Civil War and the triumph of federal union over states' rights, and "liberty and justice for all," which was supposed to strike a balance between equality and individual freedom. By the 1920s, reciting the pledge had become a ritual in many public schools.
Since the founding, critics of America's secularism have repeatedly sought to break down the church-state wall. After the Civil War, for example, some clergymen argued that the war's carnage was divine retribution for the founders' refusal to declare the United States a Christian nation, and tried to amend the Constitution to do so.
The efforts to bring God into the state reached their peak during the so-called "religious revival" of the 1950s. It was a time when Norman Vincent Peale grafted religion onto the era's feel-good consumerism in his best-selling The Power of Positive Thinking; when Billy Graham rose to fame as a Red-baiter who warned that Americans would perish in a nuclear holocaust unless they embraced Jesus Christ; when Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists.
"When this country was founded, it was created with the belief that freedom of religion met freedom to say and do what you want"
Well yea, but not endorsed through government agencies.
Although I wouldn't mind it if they are.
;o)
I am a totally for separation of church (ANY CHURCH) and state.
True American Liberal,
Please, point to the part of the Constitution that specifically states this.
Oh, and Peter...well, you know my answer to your question.
I agree with Mary, who agrees with TA and Ellynn, who agree with all reasonable, educated true citizens of a democracy. Of course it doesn't belong in a government office, no more than a Koran, or a Torah or Hogwart's Book of Spells.
Seriously, I bet most people who say "leave 'em up there" would be pitching a fit if a Wiccan group decided to put the Rede up in the same courthouse.
Thats not true, true american
The motto was used on five cent pieces in the 1800s, and The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
I personally have a 1911 penny with In GOD WE TRUST on it.
To ModernDay Publis: didja know the new dollars no longer have "In God We Trust" on them?
Geesh! Get your history right.
In 1801 the Danbury Baptist Assoc. sent a letter to Thomas Jefferson. Seems they were a bit alarmed by a rumor of a "national" religion. In his reply, Mr. Jefferson stated "I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
The Danburys were satisfied, as this statement made it clear that the "wall" was one-way in its protection of them from government interference.
In 1878, the letter - which I might add is NOT part of the Constitution, nor is it part of any law - was brought up again in the case of Reynolds vs. United States. The entirety of this letter was cited, and according to the Court, "wall of separation between Church and State" meant, "Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinions, but was left free to reach [only those religious] actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order." The Court ruled against the Mormon practice of polygamy and bigamy because the Justices considered it to be 'subversive of good order'.
Again the letter is dragged out in the 1947 case of Everson vs. Board of Education, only this time the eight words "a wall of separation between Church and State" were parsed from the original letter, without contextual reference, and twisted into a new meaning - a separation of religion from public life.
In 1962, the Supreme Court, in the case of Engel vs. Vitale, redefined "church" to mean "a religious activity in public", and the assault on the roots of Americanism began.
Questions?
(a two-word article doesn't deserve even a one word response, but I'm feeling generous today.)
Actually, I think having religious items in goverment facilities is quite hypocritical, as our government is ANYTHING but moral or righteous (and that goes for ANY religious beliefs, christian or not). If anything, we should be more worried about our leaders conducting selfish and immoral dealings while hiding behind the mask of Christianity and God.
There is just as much support for the founders making america out to be a pagan nation:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/pagan.htm
Really, this country was founded to escape the state religion of england and elsewhere. Lets keep it that way
Seriously, I think it's very simple. A completely secular government is the best guarantee of religious freedom. People are free to practice whatever religion they want and government has no say in it whatsoever.
Thanks to Sheryl for pointing out that the American Revolution was a middle and upper class one. England's Mercantilist economic policy was hurting the farmers, manufactures, and merchants. It was all about freedom to make money. It had some good side effects, though.
If you believe in God then BELIEVE in Him.
Why do you need society to reinforce your religion for you all the time and bolster your faith?
Just BELIEVE !!!
The laws we live by are based on the laws on England and those were based on the ten commandments. Of course that was way back in the beginning. Therefore I think it safe to say the ten commandments are already in the courthouse. Don't need a plack on the wall.
For all of you amature theologins - The ten commandments are the law of moses. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and specifically said "A new commandment I give unto you to love God with all of you heart and your neighbor as youself". That may not be accurite but that is what he said. The "Do unto others etc." was an intrepretation of that statement by Ben Franklin in Poor Richards Almanic.
I'm getting smooth here at Gather, huh.
Wow.
British common law has a lot of antecedents in the Norse and Germanic common law since the Nor(se)man conquest followed the Anglo Saxon conquest which followed the Danish conquest. The Scandinavian countries started to adopt Christianity in the eleventh century.
The Christian basis of our law is a myth.
Our country was founded on the basis of personal freedom from tyranny and oppression, on the belief that all men are truely "created equal". And boy are we failing.
No Hogwart Book of Spells? How anti-potter of you can you get?
Can't people swear on any book they want, like the Koran? I thought the first Muslim sworn into Congress used the Koran rather than the Bible during his swearing in ceremony. And if an Atheist puts their hand on the Bible and swears to tell the truth, can they then lie?
Let's separate historical tradition with the real meaning of our republic and Constitution, folks. I think we have evolved past the days when, say, women were considered second-class citizens. There are many vestiges that remain in our culture from "the day" (which, by the way, according to Dane Cook was a Wednesday), and some we can't even remember why someone in the past started doing it that way. Doesn't mean that we can't change things to reflect a more mature understanding of what "equal under the law" means.