I read an article in the LA times the other day about the pastor of a church in Buena Park, CA. His name is Wiley S. Drake, and I guess I should have suspected something phony about anyone who has the same name as the coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons, even though the coyote spells it Wile. Neither of them is particularly wily, though. They are both pretty dumb. I would guess the coyote is the smarter of the two.
This guy did something that got my attention, though. He asked the members of his church to pray for the death of two people! Were the targets of his wrath some evildoers? Serial killers? Terrorists? No, they are two leaders of an organization called Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU), and it seems that AU has called attention to some of Wiley’s recent actions. Wiley has been using his church to campaign for political candidates by endorsing them in letters on church letterhead stationery and on church-affiliated Internet radio shows. Wiley’s church is, of course a nonprofit organization, and nonprofits are prohibited from engaging in direct political actions like endorsement of specific candidates. AU asked the IRS to investigate Wiley’s shenanigans.
Wiley responded in a very unchristian manner by asking his followers to pray for the deaths of the two AU leaders involved. He said that he was “simply doing what God told me to do,” and called the two AU leaders “enemies of God.”
“God says to pray imprecatory prayer against people who attack God’s church. The Bible says that if anybody attacks God’s people, David said this is what will happen to them…children will become orphans and wives will become widows.”
Now it would be easy to write Wiley off as a religious looney, but this is how hate crimes are spawned. If one of his flock decides that he must take God's work into his own hands, I think the pastor should be as guilty of the crime as the perpetrator.
This kind of thing lends credence to my oft-repeated claim that most believing Christians are sensible, reasonable folks, but the more devout they are, the more likely they are to behave irrationally. Richard Dawkins, author of "The God Delusion" says that religion is a form of insanity. When I read about people like Pat Robertson, another religious looney, and this pastor, it's hard to disagree.
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Comments: 33
Here is what you have to do to become an ordained minister.
"but the more devout they are, the more likely they are to behave irrationally."
I wouldn't use the word "devout." Devout implies sincerity and reverence, which are not usually associated with violence. I would substitute "religiously fanatic," which links it with an ideology. Ideologies, when underlain with emotion often lead to irrationality. My parents and uncles and aunts all were religiously devout, but they also were kind and very rational and practical.
I would consider Wiley's behavior a hate crime, but I don't think it would fit in the definition of a hate crime.
Here are three definitions of "devout" from the Online Free DIctionary:
1. Devoted to religion or to the fulfillment of religious obligations.
2. Displaying reverence or piety.
3. Sincere; earnest
Only the third one mentions sincerity.
I would never claim that all devout people would do or say things like this idiot. But I think the more devoutly one believes in their faith, the more likely they are to try to justify irrational acts and beliefs.
In fact, faith, by definition, is "irrational," requiring no logical or scientific justification. Ben Franklin said it best:
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
Sadly, Dawkins makes a lot of sense.
It may not constitute a hate crime, but he is clearly soliciting one. Is calling for God to kill them the same as issuing a death threat? THAT is illegal!
Kevin,
Yes, it is sad. So many of our troubles in this world are the direct or indirect result of religious faith.
I don't have faith in any religion, but I have faith in some areas of life based on probabilities and patterns. New data may change those probabilities and patterns, and I will adapt my views to incorporate the new information, which may be rational or may come through art.
I think we cut off a major component of knowing life if reason is our only means to acquire knowledge.
While I'm not religious, I see truth about our the human's interior life has been channeled through religious myths. The problem is that myths come to us in a kind of code from the culture where they originated. But people interpret the myths literally and apply them exteriorly. Science deals with exterior truth, not interior truth.
Nothing I've said above justifies anything Wiley has done. Like you, I'm disgusted and horrified by it. I think you lessen the impact of your argument by painting all religious people with the same brush.
You make some good points, and you are probably right. My views are intolerant of religion, which I view as generally intolerant of opposing views. So...I am intolerant of intolerance.
But that's just verbal posturing, and it trivializes your thoughtful response.
I agree with you that science deals with "exterior truth." I do not know what "interior truth" is. For me, truth is truth. And scientific knowledge is not truth. It is a product of the scientific method. Thus, it is by definition, a theory, always open to refutation by additional data or observations.
I tried not to paint all religious people with the same brush, but maybe I failed. What I said was:
Is accordian a political party?
Don,
Yeah, I am waiting to be ambushed, but so far it hasn't happened. I mean ambushed verbally. Let's hope it doesn't go beyond that.
Thanks for posting that link. I learned a lot more about Wiley, and mostly I conclude that he is a wannabe demagogue, only he doesn't have the following, or the message. He just has the noise.
That is not being a devout ANYTHING ... it is being radical and hateful ..... and, I agree that if anything came of his "prayer" for the deaths of other people .... that the religious person making the request should be charged, as well .......... either with the solicitation of the crime, with the actual crime committed, or as an accessory ....
Seems that most everyone, Christians, Jews and Muslims, forget that God said "Vengence is Mine" -- meaning, that's my job, not yours, pion Humans.
Good article. Isn't it amazing that when fundamentalists pray, God always tells them to do just what it was they wanted to do?
Isn't "incitement to violence" a crime in most places?
You got it exactly right. How else can you explain the crazies who murder doctors who perform legal abortions. And yes, it seems to me that what the good pastor said could be construed as soliciting a crime. But it may not be legally sufficient. He only "asked"
God to commit the crime...not his church members. It is certainly morally reprehensible, if not criminal.
But, I can't deny the possibility that you are right. So tell me: Is this Wizard good or evil...or a combination...with a bizarre sense of humor?
Are you tawkin to ME?
Wizard is good or evil. I think It is a force that is creating, running things and destroying with It's own point of view on what is good or evil. I think we humans, at least most humans, are not equipped to understand the big picture. What might be good for the Creator's ultimate plan might not seem reasonable to us lesser creatures, and we can like or lump it. Occasionally a person like Jesus comes along with some great ideas that maybe did come from the Creator, like his suggestion or commandment, that we should love one another, but I don't know if he really said that, because nothing was written down until many years after he died, and what was put in the Bible from scrolls was cherrypicked by people with an agenda 400 years after Christ died. Meanwhile today, a lot of terrible things are being done by people who consider themselves Christians. Oops! My soap box just collapsed!
There is so much that we do not understand...about the origin of the Cosmos, the origin of life, and of human consciousness, just to name a few.
But we have learned a LOT in the short time we have been on this planet, and who knows how much more we can learn if we don't destroy ourselves.
Will we ever answer those three questions I posed? I would like to be optimistic, but honestly, those answers may be beyond our capabilities as a species. Maybe the next stage of evolution will produce a sentient being capable of attacking, and even answering, such questions.
careful, kemosobe: here there be dragons. what looks like a goose may be well-crafted origami, and vice-versa. there are people who would shut down our country for stuff we think is, at worst, "naughty".
devouts, and what-have-you.
who's right?
nobody.
just...different. it comes down to who survives, and thrives, and makes the biggest hives.
personally...i guess the guy's a punk. -why ask God to do something FOR you?
ever?
surefire way to find a big greasy slab of Heartbreak, if-ya-hear-me-say-"Amen".
anybody with the balls to say somebody else is ready for The Big Nasty should be willing to make the introductions themselves. "Death, this is my enemy such-and-such. Enemy: Death. You two mingle while I get us a round of Pappy's Moonshine."
seriously.
i feel the same way about ANY death penalty--Bush should be shooting at Terror (if he can FIND the slippery fella), and pro-abortionists should hold the vacuum at least once.
shhhhLURP.
"still think it's a good idea? -come back Thursday."
there've always been loonies--guys and gals built a little differently...choked a (fill in hapless animal) or two when they were twelve... cut a boss's brake line That One Time... wouldn't mind tasting human flesh... i'm sure you get my drift.
we need them, though.
they give The Balance some promise.
the reprehensible cusses.
(i've said this before: i like the way you think. i know i'm jaded, and i wish i wasn't.)
I just caught your post in another of my threads, and I must say I find you very entertaining. You mix some real wisdom in with some...um...
Anyway, if you are new to Gather, welcome. If you are just new to my threads, I'm glad you arrived.