Should we permit people to burn our flag? Is there a line in the free speech world?
How do you feel when you see the image on television of a crowd burning an American Flag? Does it offend you personally? Do you support the right of people to "make a statement" by burning a symbol? Do you know, intuitively, that people from other countries would do so (if they wanted to) whatever our laws were?
Pride in our nation is reflected by pride in the symbols of our nation. Anger results in an attack on the symbol (or symbols) . . . if not the Nation itself (or both in the case of the World Trade Center). I don't know why it affects me as it does, but it does. I love this country and feel like it needs some serious change and help; before it becomes something I never would have recognized when I was younger. These are statements meant to communicate a depth and passion . . . and certainly they do that. But really . . . isn't the care and concern we put into respecting this banner a reflection of our respect for that which it symbolizes? Isn't the burning a reflection of the contempt others have? Burning a symbol is just that . . . not burning my Country . . . which continues regardless of the symbol.
What if it was this flag . . . a symbol of the Executive Branch's top spot, the President of the United States? Would this bother you? I suspect there'd be less screaming then . . . and less pain for some to see. What if it were a flag of Sri Lanka? Or some place you never heard of? It's only what a symbol represents that makes it meaningful . . . but we must rationally think about this and realize that it is a symbol and not the thing itself. Why be bothered? Are you bothered? Is it better to know what people think by permitting this than it is to suppress their ability to speak out in this fashion?
Here is why I bring this up. A respected photograher I know has taken a photo and she titled it as she felt appropriate. Her name is Dora Bruce and she's a sweetheart . . . not a political activist (to my knowledge). This is her shot, used with her written permission to share among you.
"No Longer Proud"
-Dora Bruce Copyright 2oo7
Heavy symbolism is evident and it's a powerful photograph even without it. But you read this the way you choose . . . a photographer creates an image . . . portrays feelings and thoughts . . . and cannot use words (other than a title) to direct a viewer in how to think. Currently, the imagery and symbolism on a political level is unmistakeable. But it's OUR interpretation.
Dora is a Canadian . . . and is making another statement altogether. Because this symbol happens to be a living creature too. She stated in response to another animal lover, "I have seen some horrible little places as well. These animals here are well taken care of and mostly here because of injuries or age or were born here and don't know anything else. He is in a huge cage but seemed incapable of flying even up to a higher roost. His days of proud flight are finished."
Cowardly people abound and she was threatened by another. My friend Dora replied with the utmost character to that threat and I'm darn proud of her too. Her quote:
"This morning I received a very heated email about the symbolism in this photo and I was told (not asked) to remove it "or suffer the consequences."
Well...no!
When I took this picture, it was of a sad, old eagle who is in an enclosure for his own protection. If it is speaking of other things, then it's a better photo than I gave it credit for being.
I think it was Robert Frost who said, "I just write the poetry. It's up to the reader to interpret it."
(If you want to make more comments or threats, do it here. You are blocked from my email.)"
Excellent image redolent with symbolism. But the symbolism here (to me) . . . alive . . . but injured . . . and yet, hopefully able to recover and soar again. Completely amazing work. And cowardly for anyone to even demand she take it down . . . let's be certain of one thing . . . some people still feel freedom of speech is a good thing . . . some of those who don't want to permit such freedom . . . are the same ones who are causing the most injury to the symbol as well as the reality. My prayer is the bird and the symbol can both be free to soar again! We only need some people with character to put their feet down at the erosion of liberty . . . and let symbols be symbols . . .
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
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Comments: 105
The sad eagle is so symbolic of how many Americans perceive what is happening in our country. It's like the old commercial of the Native American shedding a tear when he sees how his ancestoral land is being decimated by pollution and littering. Our Nation, once proud and an example to the rest of the world, is now holding its head in shame at the loss of our own freedoms via the "Patriot Act" and the wars we are waging overseas in the name of freedom. I hope your friend continues to feel free to voice her opinion and is not discouraged by the negativity.
I don't care what they do with the flag - I care what they've done to my country. They have humiliated us, belittled us, killed and maimed and raped with the name of my country.
If people get upset about burning the flag and not upset about the children this administration is killing in Iraq, it makes me even sadder.
Thanks so much. You and I can feel the poignant symbolism in this photo and I can assure you that the types of friends I keep would never be bullied from their passion . . . photography. I found it amazing that this was never intended to be a political message. Almost too coincidental . . . but I know and trust my friends and had that been the purpose it certainly would not have been denied. The fact that a US citizen has not done this adds substance to the assertion that the image was about the creature, and not about some other country's symbol.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Fair enough . . . and agreed. But where do you end on the topic. Should we permit an American citizen to burn the flag? What if we decided it was ALL up to you? What would you say?
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"I don't care what they do with the flag - I care what they've done to my country."
Excellent point. By the way, as you so aptly point out, I'm also concerned with what they have done in MY name . . . For (supposedly) this country!
Thanks,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Thanks, Doyle.
Symbols are just that, symbols. They represent meaning, but do not in themselves mean anything. The fact that someone interpreted in a way that wasn't how it was intended shows that symbols can mean different things to different people.
The fact that the person made threatening remarks is totally unacceptable. We are free to disagree, even vehemently...but we are not free to threaten the life, livelihood, or freedoms of others that have done no wrong. To do so is to contradict the very meaning the attacker suggested was being symbolized.
Thanks for the reminder of what freedom really means.
God bless America and our symbol of freedom, The Eagle!
Thanks for the email Doyle!
bren
As for symbols - I care about the reality, not the symbol. When I joined the Army, I took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." I am deeply alarmed that so many people are willing to see the Constitution torn to shreds for an illusion of safety or to protect a symbol over human rights.
it with all of us on Gather, we all should come and read
this and comment on what we feel is right. I for one do
not like what the gov'ment is doing to our people that
serve in the armed forces of america! No respect for the
human lives taken it disgusts me!
Thanks to you Dora for the pic of our national emblem,
and that ole bugger looks about done in; so sad. I am
proud of you for standing up for what you know is right!
We need more doers such as yourself Dora, and Doyle.
Thanks to the both of you again.
Just Me
Barbie
Excellent article. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I may not agree with someone burning a flag but I support their right to free speech and demonstration.
This lady has taken a beautiful picture and is now being harassed. What a tragedy. People need to stop and realize a flag is just that a flag it is what you feel in your heart and soul that matter.
"We are free to disagree, even vehemently...but we are not free to threaten the life, livelihood, or freedoms of others that have done no wrong. To do so is to contradict the very meaning the attacker suggested was being symbolized."
Thanks . . . it's a lose lose situation to deny others freedom to portray a symbol of freedom. Bizarre, really.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Thanks. "I am patriotic so seeing the flag burn hurts me however I'm all for freedom of speech and posting pictures like this one of the Eagle."
Easily said . . . but like you I feel sorrow seeing our flag be burned to make a statement. Are you willing to step back and allow that to happen? I think we almost MUST allow it . . . or it wouldn't represent what we value in it anyway!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"Those who threatened her are not the sort of people I want representing me or my country. "
Agreed . . . more important . . . the mentality of those that feel that way . . . or threaten others . . . even other countries . . . those people have never represented me or what was best in this country!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
". . . and a campaigner for the America promised by the Constitution and the bill of rights and the REAL people of America."
Therein lies our dignity, integrity and respect. You're so right, in my opinion. We can only defeat ourselves really. Like you, if defeated . . . I prefer to be defeating while fighting for what is right, just and has always been good in, and for, this country. I will struggle for the country I grew up in as long as I live.
Regards and respect,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"I took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.""
So many at some very high levels have taken that oath (as have I) . . . and yet so many did so without meaning it . . . Funny really . . . the oath was never meant to be symbolic!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"Instead we happily ignore the facts, pour trillions into China, waste thousands of lives and billions of dollars in Iraq, and get upset when someone, rightfully, puts our country down. "
And yet this isn't someone putting the country down. What it is, really, is some people have become very sensitive to our ethical spiral downward . . . and think by further chipping away at our liberty and freedom they can quell the discontent. Changing the speech . . . instead of the reality. In a weird extension . . . words are themselves symbols . . .
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"if you burn my flag....do you expect me to look upon you kindly? "
Nope . . . I'm pretty sure they are attempting to communicate their contempt of you and not to win "hearts and minds".
"Freedom of speech never was ment to include this, in my opinion...."
The US Supreme Court differs (as I'm sure you know).
"it was simple protection to speak verbally, what you believe..."
But Mike, what good does it do to speak in the darkened corner of a cellar? Freedom of speech was always around for all people at all times so long as they were not heard! What is meant is the safety to freely speak AND be heard. Words, like flags, are symbols. Burning a 3x5 cloth of white or one made in China and dyed as a flag of some nation . . . is essentially the same thing . . . unless you plan on making it illegal to burn all 3x5 cloths. If it's different . . . it's due to the symbol . . . and is, in fact, a message . . . when that symbol is used either poorly or reverently. The image of a flag . . . and of a burning flag . . . they "Speak" to me. They 'say something'. If they didn't . . . it would never bother you (or me) that they burned it.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I think you may have mis-read the article.
This photo was never ever meant to make any statement about this country! It was a statement about the bird in it . . . injured and rehabilitationg . . . and her heart went out for the poor bird . . . a proud bird. SOME have seen the symbols and interpreted them as saying the country is ashamed of itself . . . but she cannot help that others read more into it than she meant. Worse, she was threatened by people who have NO idea what the concept of freedom of speech is about . . . a wierd dichotomy . . . acttacking the very freedom the bird represents by applying their own thought symbolically and calling for that same freedom to be curtailed.
I love this country and sincerely respect it AND it's symbols. But sometimes . . . a bird is just a bird.
Dora is an amateur photographer, grandmother and not political . . . she was surprised how people saw this. It's unfair to blame her for shooting a photo of a bird . . . and worse to threaten her. But even if she DID have a message . . . I believe she should have and does have the freedom to express it.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I still respect the country I grew up in and seek fervently to protect and defend her . . . and I treat her symbols with reverence and dignity. Where the country departs from my idea of how she should be, I don't flee her, but work to get her on what I feel is the correct path. You'll note that my burning flag image isn't even of an actual flag burning . . . just an image to bring that concept to mind.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
While circumventing it, Washington has pursued an agenda that a majority of citizens do not support. For the past few months, I've become more concerned as the administration talks less about Iraq and increasing villifies Iran. K. Rove proved his belief that it you tell people the same thing over and over, they'll believe it. Administration "hawks" allegedly favor unilateral U.S. military involvement in Iran. I believe it would be disasterous not only for America, but an already overextended and abused military. Toppling a government in Iran wil lead to the same outcome that currentl exists in Iraq. There is no viable government and sectarian violence continues to consume citizens.
If people would get their priorities in order they would know that. Much of this plays out in our religions where the 'official' view is that of some 'authority' that designates the symbols that must be worshipped where even the designator has no real idea of just what the essence is that the symbol represents as a reminder only.
It is the nationalistic symbolism that idiots fight and die over, if people were really real they would know that all of the most important things play out best when their essence is understood based upon the love of God (not that of some 'name' used in place of God) and our spiritual unity that does exist on that realm ... where we will never return by fighting over mere symbols.
the first thing you see in your article is the american flag burning, then you talk about our judicial system, then the eagle with his head down and the words "NO LONGER PROUD"
I did not mis-read, and neither did others.
The title of the pic was not about a sick bird...she titled it as such because it is OUR symbol here in America. I am sorry but you have been hood winked into believing that this pic was innocent when it is not.
And since it was done by a canadian it is pointless.
I am biased as an American...the first of my family born in America and an Army wife to a soldier hwo has been laying his life on the line for 23 years to protect our country and people.
No damn canadian with out a concept of what it means to be an american is going to make me feel ashamed of my origins. Whether or president is an idiot or not, whether I believe in this war or not, I am a proud american and our "symbol" the bald eagle will always be proud, head held high for it;s citizens and soldiers...as for that canadian bird,,,it can be thanksgiving dinner for all I care.
"I've become more concerned as the administration talks less about Iraq and increasing villifies Iran."
It is simply not possible to be too concerned about that. I have worried on that topic for a longer time that the latest round of Republican rhetoric . . . having seen this is in the cards for a long time now . . . and seeing how the BA uses repetition and even lies to create justification for some "event". Nothing good would come from that.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I have watched my husband got to war countless times as well as other family members. My hsuband has given up chunks of his body for this country...literally bled for what his country has asked him to do. yet never once has be waivered from his patriotism or loyalty to his country..even when he did not agree with the politics.
And those "idiots" that fight that you speak of,,,is you are an American those men and women fight for YOU!
who needs to get their priorities straight now?
You don't know this lady. At all. Yet you call her a liar.
"...she titled it as such because it is OUR symbol here in America." You may feel free to call people liars if you wish (even those you clearly do NOT know). That's freedom of speech.
I have photographed many raptors and they are all proud, regal looking birds. This bird . . . grounded . . . struck a chord with her. Any eagle in this pose would be heart-breaking . . . perhaps I have been "hoodwinked". I agree it seems remarkably symbolic . . . but then, I guess you'd have to know my friends. Most would step right up and admit this was a politically symbolic photo if that was the intent. I cannot imagine why one who agreed with the symbolic message . . . and then MADE it . . . would then deny it had the message. Why?
"the first of my family born in America and an Army wife to a soldier hwo has been laying his life on the line for 23 years to protect our country and people. "
I'm am a 17th generation American and the immigrant Chastain is buried on the land granted to him in Virginia by King George II of England. You're likely aware my son has already completed two combat tours already in the 10th Mtn. Rngers and vets in my family go from all siblings, father and numerous uncles . . . many who died in action. Be proud . . . they have all given us freedoms . . . like your freedom to express your desire to have "that Canadian bird" for "thanksgiving" dinner.
Did you notice how the actions of one "lying" Candian have now caused you to disrespect an entire Nation's bird? Contempt for Canada based on the actions of one. Does it surprise you that others in other countries might hate this country because of it's actions? You have made my point more than anyone . . .
My point was never that I hate my country . . . just that we should realize that realism outranks symbolism . . . and, incidentally . . . that's NOT a picture of a burning flag . . . I could have done that, but I still respect our symbols.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
It is the nationalistic symbolism that idiots fight and die over, if people were really real they would know that all of the most important things play out best when their essence is understood based upon the love of God (not that of some 'name' used in place of God) and our spiritual unity that does exist on that realm ... where we will never return by fighting over mere symbols.
With a bit of a 'broader' view, you can get to the 'essence' of my message rather than take a narrow view of a particular aspect to make a 'selfish' case out of. That is one of the worlds greatest problems, not taking the time to understand the essence behind the surface of smaller mind interpretations.
Does it offend you personally? Absolutely without a doubt. (I'm keeping it nice here!)
Do you support the right of people to "make a statement" by burning a symbol? NO!!!
Your friends picture started out innocent enough and will probably turn into a poster-child for what America is feeling right now. It took this government less than 8 years to destroy what took our forefathers decades to build. The morale, the respect, the integrity and the faith of this country is the lowest I've ever seen. This picture is so fitting and unfortunately should become an icon until it can hold it's (rhetorical) head up and fly proudly again.
Thanks for the honesty here. While I don't like to see a flag burned . . . I hate even more the disrespect that must be felt for this country by a person who might want to do such a thing.
"This picture is so fitting and unfortunately should become an icon until it can hold it's (rhetorical) head up and fly proudly again. "
Symbolically . . . the bird is healing. And as I mentioned . . . I hope one day both this bird and the symbol will fly high with pride and dignity. It will take work . . . and commitment . . . in both cases.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I feel sorry for the dejected bird...I hope his outlook improves....
A more appropriate symbol for protestors, rather than using old glory, would seem to be a flag bearing the seal of the president. The problems with the ship of state are the responsibility of those in the wheelhouse, not of the ship itself...
The foto is a part of the times we live in and should not be taken in any light other than a photograph of a "person" awaiting assistance and medical help.
Thanks for publishing the photo and the ensuing article.
pj
"A more appropriate symbol for protestors, rather than using old glory, would seem to be a flag bearing the seal of the president. "
An excellent, rational point David . . . but burning flags to incite a response is usually done with an eye to get a stronger response than would likely be seen with the more nuanced and intelligent position you mention. As I stated in the body of the article . . . less people would object. Also, I wonder how intelligent the average flag-burner is. Not a slam . . . but truly . . . I sense more passion and less nuanced, intelligent thought . . . generally speaking.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Absolute SHAME for what indeed is being done in her sacred name.
You've hit directly on the crux of the matter. If you burn an American flag it will cause me pain but if you buy the flag, it is your right worthy of preservation. If you burn my flag you will be prosecuted for malicious damage to personal property!
It hurts when you see people so enraged at our country that they want to express themselves in this manner, and it should hurt!
People complained at the suggestion of removing the "under God" from the pledge but we fought the Revolutionary War, the Spanish American War, the War of 1812, the Civil War, WW I, WW II without that in the pledge and won most of them! The eagle as a symbol is a feel good image but were it a dove it would still be OK. Symbols matter - somewhat. The actual thing matters a whole lot!
"The foto is a part of the times we live in and should not be taken in any light other than a photograph of a "person" awaiting assistance and medical help."
Or, as a symbol, a nation that needs to heal . . . and is being protected until it can be restored to it's prior dignity. My point is the symbol is provided by the viewer. Perhaps the wire is terrorism keeping a nation caged . . . or . . . a Constitution . . . struggling to protect a nation until it heals . . .
There are many connotations and that's what makes for a great image . . . it speaks to many in a powerful way . . . without words.
But to make a threat? Well . . . to do that is to OPPOSE freedom . . . and those are the very types of people who have damaged this symbol the most (IMO) already.
Thanks for your comment!! :)
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
BINGO! You're the man, my friend. Perfectly spoken!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"We must never forget the importance of this country over it's symbols! No symbol is worth a human life but our country is. "
THIS was my entire point . . . and I think to threaten people who use their rights does more damage to the symbol than to burn a flag. Burning the flag means you know there is a power inherent in that symbol . . . threatening a lady for a photograph means that the symbol . . . is more important than what it represents! Not to me it isn't!,
Regards and respect,
Doyle I <~~~~~~
(And thanks to all who have kept this a civil discourse!!)
As a child, I spent more time with he and my Grandmother than at home with my parents. I was spoiled rotten! Of all the memories I have of those days, the one that is my most precious is about our flag. I learned from Pop Pop all of the symsbolism, and the regulations for it's care and use. Every morning, at dawn, when together, we raised the flag as is proper. I still remember his letting me help. Even at 4/5/6 I knew never to allow the flag to touch the ground. We would raise the flag in the early morning light, then salute, and place a hand over our hearts as we spoke the pledge of Allegience.
At sundown, we repeated that respect by bringing our flag down and folding it once again as is proper.
Pop Pop passed away early of a massive heart attack when I was 10. The military funeral was impressive for the men in uniform who stood at his casket, and the full military honors at his graveside in the military cemetary. I remember that in a blur.
Several years ago, my Father presented me with the flag folded by my Grandfather's hands the last time he proudly flew it. It means more to me than anyone can imagine.
I think telling you all of this answers the question posed.
That said . . . it is because it symbolizes so much . . . not because it's a dyed piece of cloth, that it has meaning. And what it represents is more important than it is itself. It represents Love of Country as well as times with an obviously lucky man . . . who held the eyes and heart of a young one like yourself . . . who likely felt great pleasure in sharing the time with you . . . as you did in sharing the time with him.
I'm very happy it has reached a place of respect . . . and when the time comes . . . I know you will send it to a person who will treasure it at least as much.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
If some Ya-Hoo burns a flag . . . I completely agree that you can be angry, dislike them, whatever! But never . . . and I mean NEVER . . . does that mean your flag has any less meaning to it! Neither does it mean my country is anything less loved. My family has collected flags off of four of five combat veteran's (all brother's) coffins. The fifth, my Uncle Doyle, lost a leg and was 120% disabled during the Battle of the Bulge. He lived. Those flags will never mean less to me . . . but those people will never mean less to me than the flags I have to remember them by!
I appreciate the symbols . . . and they are stronger when they symbolize more (like our flag) . . . but what they symbolize means the most.
Remember the Washington crossing the Potomac painting? We didn't even have a flag then. But still . . . this was OUR country.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
thanks...
A deeper patriotism involves having an informed, honest view of America, both past and present. Facing the hard truths, the good and the bad. Accepting that sometimes what we as a country do is wrong, and using that knowledge to try harder in the future to do what's right.
I think for a lot of us, the reality of America doesn't live up to what we want it to be. But at the end of the day, the only way it can be the country we love and believe in is if we make it that country. Paul Wellstone said that "the future will belong to those who have passion and are willing to work hard to make our country better."
Threatening people and trying to take away their freedoms isn't going to make our country better.
Awesome words. Thanks to all for not letting this turn into something spiteful.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
The beauty of freedom is that we can all draw our own conclusions and thoughts. I love to hear what the KKK (for example) say . . . it lets me see my opponents without a filter and speaks more for them using thier own words than it would ever do hearing what others say about them.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Sharon expresses my feelings better than I could ever hope to do myself. I am so sorry that your friend was the target of such a reprehensible email. How sad that people need to threaten others who express an opinion that they find contrary to theirs. That is the essence of a true democracy - to allow people to express their opinions in non-violent ways. And your friend's photo is one of the most beautiful methods of expression - art. Please relay to her my apologies for my fellow American and my appreciation for her magnanimous response.
It is clear to anyone not visually blind that Dora's eagle image is one of a captive eagle at a rescue/rehab center....
Photography is always open to interpretation and if someone wants to read it,or the title as a political statement,then so be it...
To write to the photog "Demanding" removal based on that person's interpretation is without a doubt ridiculous....period!
Did i miss the memo that says all photos of eagles are symbolic of the US of A?
And that all injured captive eagle photos are symbolic of the sad state of affairs of our government? That photogs are only to post shots of healthy eagles in flight/perched/in action?
Doyle knows that if this eagle shot were mine, i more than likely would post it with a title that left no doubt that i was using it to make a political statement...LOL...but clearly Dora was not.
The bald eagle was chosen as the emblem of America because of its great strength, majestic looks, long life and also because it was then believed in the 18th century to exist only in North America.
Both bald eagles and golden eagles along with their feathers are considered sacred by those of us of Native American heritage. I would be more distressed to see the mistreatment of a live eagle than any flag burning, or "less than proud looking" photos of eagles expressing one person's opinion about our government.
Mandi >
If you comprehend what democracy and freedom of speech means,as well as know the history of this country's beginnings,then you are aware that our country was founded on "dissent". The US constitution gives us the right to express ourselves in whatever fashion that may be. And yes, choosing to burn a US flag or any other US symbol can be one person's self expression. Any of us can be disgusted by such an act as is also our right, but none of us have the right to retaliate or condemn in a harmful way another person's freedom of expression.
If you regard yourself as a true patriot,then you will consistently uphold freedom of expression no matter your personal distaste of specific behavior by your fellow Americans.
In regard to Dora's eagle shot and title, you are clearly mistaken regarding her intent...that is clear to any reasonable person upon viewing.
To say, "the photographer is Canadian for pete's sake....she does not live here and does not have the right to assume that Americans are ashamed or ready to lower the head of the bald eagle...EVER..." is simply an error in judgement on your part in regards to her "non-political" photo. But i have to say that even if she had intended it to be a political statement about America, she has as much right as the next person to express her opinion!......I am not an expert about Canadian government,but i am fairly certain she has the right to express herself about any subject under the sun as we do in this country.
The world wide web is an international global community and photography is one artistic medium of communication. You don't have to agree with all of it,nor view what you find objectionable....that is your right.
In conclusion, photogs in particular realize that when a photo stirs emotions of any kind,it is considered a photo of impact......i only regret that this eagle shot is not one i shot....
peace,gayle
"That is the essence of a true democracy - to allow people to express their opinions in non-violent ways. And your friend's photo is one of the most beautiful methods of expression - art. Please relay to her my apologies for my fellow American and my appreciation for her magnanimous response. "
You know I will my friend!!
Gayle, my Dear Friend:
"Doyle knows that if this eagle shot were mine, i more than likely would post it with a title that left no doubt that i was using it to make a political statement...LOL...but clearly Dora was not."
We know that of each other. To assume a statement was made and denied is ludicrous. Why make it if it you don't want to back it up? I also would have loved to get this shot. I shoot what I need . . . but this shot SHE got . . . and I adore it!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
And, I'll bet that Canada has far more eagles in residence than the lower 48 does (I suspect Alaska was not a state when the eagle was selected as it was here).
Should we permit people to burn our flag? Is there a law banning such an act? All loyalty and patriotism aside, if there is, is it a reasonable law? Do people have other EQUALLY EFFECTIVE ways to express their displeasure about something? Does it matter if they are US citizens or non-citizens? In other words, that is a vitriolic question. A simple Yes or No will not suffice.
Your passion is obvious. And passion is what this country needs. "It may have meant something else but it is telling of what we are as a Country! No longer proud!!" I think by standing up against anti-American Neo-Cons and the cowardly type of person that would threaten (excuse this one Dora) an older lady and attempt to deny her the very freedom that made this country strong would be a great place to start.
We can turn this tide. I have no choice but to believe it is possible. The alternative is unthinkable.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"Should we permit people to burn our flag? Is there a law banning such an act?"
This is an act that has been protected under the Freedom of Speech Ammendment in the US Constitution's Bill of Rights . . . and ruled as such by the US Supreme Court. It is not illegal. No one, as has been spoken earlier, can burn YOUR flag . . . but they can buy and burn their own legally. George Carlin (comedian) suggested they make it illegal to make a flag that can be burned! Humorous thought . . . but this actually is an issue of what you can do with your property . . . and preventing the burning of your own symbols is currently considered a violation of your free speech rights.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I'm not Catholic, but how would they feel if they encountered a Catholic wearing a Cross upside down because of all the Church-protected pedophilia?
Thoughts, anyone?
Good point. If YOU buy a cross . . . and wear it upside down it will affect people and make a statement. Should we be able to make it illegal for you to wear YOUR cross any which way you choose? Also, doesn't that say something more about you than it does about God?
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
As long as we're not hurting anyone else in the process, of course... (therefore, you can't burn your neighbor's flag, unless he or she says it's ok, and you can't use this kind of symbolism to incite riots, or to encourage open rebellion against the gov't)
Who has the right to decide what it 'means' when a person burns an American flag? Who has the right to say - 'You do this because you hate America and Americans'? How can they know what the intentions of the doer actually are?
I was born in 1958, and so, was about 10, when the 'Vietnam' issue was really beginning to heat up. I remember watching the 'daily death toll' on the evening news every night, the graphic photos they showed, every evening also, of young American soldiers, (nothing more than boys, really) being carted off on gurneys, bloody, and mutilated. How could any one see that, and not be effected? I cried over the evening news, nearly every evening.
So it was not long before I, though still very young, and knowing very little about politics, but having an innate sense of 'right and wrong', was also getting on the bandwagon, to end the Vietnam war. I displayed 'peace' signs every chance I got, in the form of patches my jeans, stickers on my school notebook, and bumper stickers on my Mom's car. I flashed the two-finger 'Peace' sign around, at every opportunity, and back in those days, it seemed like we really understood what it MEANT, to support PEACE. At that moment in time, we understood just how VITAL peace was, to our own survival. I owned one of those t-shirts that said 'Make LOVE, not WAR'. (a little risky, for a girl my age, but I took the chance) And also, on my favorite pair of jeans, on the back pocket, I sported an upside down American flag. No accident that it was on the seat of my britches...
This was NOT my way of saying 'I HATE AMERICA'. This was my way of saying 'I HATE WHAT THE AMERICAN FLAG CURRENTLY REPRESENTS'.
It seems to me, back in the Vietnam Era, we already hashed over this whole 'American flag' issue. There were AMERICANS burning them, back then. Some went to jail for it, and fought for their right, in court, to express themselves in this way...and, as I recall, they WON. So it seems to me, this issue has already been debated and decided.
So why is it being rehashed again? Someone already fought for my right to wear an upside down flag on the seat of my jeans, if that's what I want to do! (thanks to them, I was one 12 year old American girl, who never had to go to jail, for expressing myself in that way)
Now that I'm older, and a little more 'conservative, I'm currently settling for simply 'boycotting' the American flag - I currently refuse to own anything with red, white, and blue on it. It's not because I hate America or Americans - after all, I AM an American, my children and grandchildren live in America, and what hurts America, HURTS US! So why would I support anything that hurts America?
But ever since the invasion of Iraq, ever since I started getting those photos delivered to my inbox, of little Iraqi children, blown apart by American bombs, ever since I started receiving the testimonies of Iraqi families who have seen bombs dropped on their homes, while they sat down to dinner, innocent civilians murdered in the streets by American soldiers, just for BEING THERE, and BEING IRAQI, ever since I've been getting the reports of the numerous tortures and atrocities, being committed against other human beings, IN THE NAME OF AMERICA, I've been feeling a lot of shame, and yes, a lot of anger, every time I see that flag.. Sometimes I feel I want to run around town with a can of blood red paint, and throw it on every American flag I see, because that flag, to me, is looking very BLOODY, these days...and I feel this would be a totally correct symbology, of what the American flag currently represents.
And so, until that flag is cleansed of the innocent blood which it is currently dripping with, (at least as far as I am concerned), I will refuse to any longer display an American flag, or even the colors of the flag, because I have become ashamed of what that flag currently represents.
By the way, a lovely article.... I nearly cried, when I saw the picture of the American eagle in a cage... Especially after just waking up this morning, from a nightmare in which my entire family was being 'kidnapped' by some gov't 'SWAT team' of sorts, and taken to a hidden location, assumedly for questioning and possibly torture. (no doubt, because of the 'political views' I have too often openly expressed) I woke up, and realized how close to being a 'reality' this dream really was, and for a few hours this morning, it terrified me....
But I'm still not going to shut up.
I thought about how I might react, if something like this ever really happened. Would I even be able to find it in myself, to respond to the questions being posed to me, in such a situation? Or would I grow characteristically 'stubborn', in such a situation? And what sort of nonsense would they be asking me? Whether or not I'm a 'member of Al Qaeda', perhaps? (what could my response to that be, other than to laugh? I'm not even fully convinced Al Qaeda actually EXISTS. Sometimes I think it's just something Bush and Co. cooked up, to justify their own misdeeds!) Do I know where Osama Bin Laden is? I think my response to that would probably have to be - go ask George Bush, he knows the man, and his entire family, far better than I do...
Have I said I'd like to skin George alive, a time or two? Probably. But I've always maintained a large sense of reality about that one... I know a person like me will never get close enough to him, to do any such thing... Besides I also sometimes say I'd like to strangle my children ...does that mean I really intend to? There are probably numerous people I'd like to skin alive, and I may have even said so, in private company, a time or two. (of course, never resorting to actually threatening anyone, directly. It's mostly just my way of venting steam) Should I be locked up for 'intended murder', if I say something like that? (in fact, I did actually dream I was strangling my daughter, the other night! It seems she had turned into a demon or a vampire or something, and I felt it was the only way I could deliver her from the evil that had taken her over, and save the rest of us from the effects of it, as well... I'm sure the whole dream was very symbolic....) Is saying that you WANT to do something, the same as saying you ARE going to do something? Are we allowed to entertain fantasies of 'doing in' anyone we don't like? Or does that make society too uncomfortable now?
I finally decided if I ever were 'kidnapped' in the way I dreamt about, my only response would have to be.... "I want a lawyer, and I'm not answering any or your questions, period, no matter what you do to me" Not because I have anything to hide, but just because it wouldn't matter what I said, anyway.... If I say something that is true, but isn't believed or liked, I'll likely get tortured, till I say what they want to hear...even if it's a lie. So why bother, under those kinds of conditions?
Might as well just torture and kill me now, cause I have nothing to say to the likes of these low-life violators of the Constitution. And I guess they'll have to kill my children and grandchildren too, cause they sure don't know anything, other than - 'Grandma hates George, for all the children he's murdered'. Maybe they're actually better off dead anyway, than to live in such a place.
At least that's the conclusions I came to, after reviewing that whole imaginary (so far) scenario in my mind...
I feel a lot like that eagle in the cage, these days...
GT
My brother fought in WW II and my father in WW I. They did not fight for the flag, they both fought for the USA and the perpetuation of the freedoms in our constitution! Dad, especially, had a life long reverence for the flag and the American armed services and was active in both the American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars throughout his life but there was never a time he felt the flag or any other symbol as important as the rights of our constitution!
Of course a caring citizen is hurt by seeing the flag burned. And he should be! But to outlaw this expression would be the same as forcing the reverence to the flag just like Hitler did. The reverence of our government should never be forced, only earned.
"THE EAGLE PHOTO CAN BE DOWNLOADED TO YOUR COMPUTER."
What does this mean? This image is seriously copyrighted!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
And yes...this is, indeed, a powerful image. It makes me think of war, of our troops being away from home for so long, and of what they are dealing with within themselves when they come home.
I so get it and agree with that. People think the sacrifice by these people are what they volunteered for and to an extent they have a point. Too few understand what others need to contend with as well. My grandaughter at 4 years of age has been without a father for three of them . . . her mother is essentially a single mother and must contend with daily life, stress and worry as well . . . and a father coming home (Thank God) who is a father . . . and suddenly her method of parenting is now a debate issue with a father who wants to be included . . . who hasn't been there but expects to participate . . . family (including myself) spending sleepless nights as neighbors bury their son . . . and all of this in a seemingly unending nightmare.
Sad? Absolutely. Even if I felt the war was legitimate.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
People need to realize that just because we as photographers choose to post our work here and on other sites that it is to share our work visually and in no way indicates that we give you permission to remove our images for even your own personal use......ask permission and some of us will consider that request.....
Doyle, i think it would be wise to ask Karl to remove his comment which is irresponsible!
cheers,gayle
I'm not going to touch the flag issue because it's been discussed and rehashed throughout this thread.
The photograph now ... the photo is just that, a photograph *a very good one BTW :)* but still just a photograph.
One that shows a member of a proud and noble species of raptor/ bird that has been injured and caged to give it a chance to heal.
The lady who took the photograph looked at this poor creature and captured it's apparent despair at it's loss of freedom.
What is seen by those who look at this picture can be interpreted in as many different ways as there are people who see the picture.
It is not any one individual's right to tell this lady what she can or cannot photograph nor has any one the right to tell her to take it down!
Freedom of speech whether by words or symbols is a right we have all earned... not just American citizens either. Canada, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Finland almost every democratic* nation in the world gives it's citizens that right!
By trying to deny some one their right to free speech you are denying the foundation of the U.S. constitution and the Bill of Rights that so many have fought and died to protect. That is the true "Unpatriotic action"!
* Note I said Democratic Nations... with the distinction that just because a country supposedly holds elections to choose their government does not make it a democratic nation!*
Thanks for the comment . . . and a good point . . . this isn't just a freedom expected in the US. And, to threaten people for using their freedom is to be against freedom . . . and the tenets which are the foundation of numerous free nations worldwide.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Please understand everyone . . . the image is powerful and the story has led to an interesting discussion. That said . . . this is a borrowed image with written permission and we have no right to use it as we choose . . . however much you may we wish to do so. Allowing wholesale and illegal taking of this image will only make photographers less likely to share their work with us in the future.
Thanks for respecting the legal rights of the owner of the image.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Thanks . . . "...because flags cost money...". Made me smile . . . reminds me of a very pragmatic person I know too. Still . . . I have other reasons not to do so than just cost . . .
"Freedom of speech--always."
Absolutely.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Excellent comment.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I think the Robert Frost quote is spot on! It's the way it's interpreted..... And the most important thing is that it makes people think. In my opinion, the current administration is banking on people not thinking but following blindly.... If this makes people think, then it has done it's job.
Thank you!
Karl: Thank you Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar! :)
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
When a flag has reached the end of its usefulness, it is burned, not tossed in the rubbish pile. Personally I don't like acts of disrespect, regardless of who they are aimed at.
Dora what a poinant photograph. It looks very familiar, as there is an enclosure like the one in your shot at the zoo where I grew up. My heart aches whenever I visit and see that majestic creature so contained, even if it is for its own good.
If you read more into than that? Then you're projecting your issues on someone who has done nothing more than take a photo.
This country has become so lost in its own wants needs and desires, we forget there is a big world out there. Is it so suprising we're viewed as spoiled, unthinking and uncareing of others?
We judge ourselves by our intentions. The world judges us by our actions.
At the moment, I'm not overly proud of this country's actions. I still wouldn't live anywhere else. This is my country, and for better or worse I love it.
Cities and nations bring people together to focus on problems common to all of the group. Leaders and followers became the hierarchical order, and symbols were used to bind the people with enthusiasm for the common cause.
Through countless years we have evolved to where we are now, with many nations aligned with one another, resulting in very few real differences compared to the past. Now our technology really makes us all a real time family ... of course our 'family' squabbles can still get ever more nasty because of that improved technology, what we need now is improved thinking in the realization that we are really and truly all of one family under the very same God.
Without THAT understanding, we have powerful people attempting to take control of the entire world under their own elitist hierarchy, that currently being played out in the shadows (darkness as in evil) behind the scenes presented to us for public consumption. A ONE WORLD Government, a Hierarchy of evil when you get right down to it.
At least compared to the REAL THING, the opposite of that counterfeit government, that of God's own organization based upon unconditional love, peace and cooperation for one and all ... yes, a Utopian arrangement. THAT is what Heaven IS and COULD BE right here on earth IF and when we ever come to realize that that is our eventual inheritance.
Just something else to think about where the really real would take the place of counterfeit 'symbols' most often misunderstood by some and abused by others.
Thanks for some excellent points.
"We judge ourselves by our intentions. The world judges us by our actions."
I more or less agree with this . . . but don't like to lump all together too easily. Some outside this country d