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by Dave McGill
Member since:
January 23, 2006

the contrarian - THE IMMIGRATION KOPS

August 08, 2007 01:51 AM EDT
views: 305 | comments: 192
fileId:3096224744307793;size:inter;

Many of you have seen this photo, taken several months ago, representing a flagrant case of disrespect for the American flag at Montebello High School in the Los Angeles area. As you can see, the flag of Mexico is flying above the flag of the United States, which is upside down. The picture has been widely used by special interest groups to promote anti-immigration measures.

While the incident itself is inexcusable, very little of the related literature contains all of the facts.

Reportedly, a group of 800 to 1,000 students were organized for a peaceful march protesting the immigration legislation under consideration at that time. The students were primarily, if not completely, from schools other than Montebello High.

What has usually not been said is that the surrounding community of Pico Rivera has stepped forward vigorously to say it was outraged over what was done, as were the students who organized the march. Also, generally left out, was the fact that the student who was primarily responsible for hoisting the flags, which flew only briefly, was disciplined.

On the other hand, other photos taken of the event show that a number of the participants were celebrating this act of defiance, suggesting that if, indeed, it was the work of one person, he had more than a little support.

If nothing else, the incident demonstrates the degree to which the issue of immigration has escalated into a highly charged crisis. And part of the reason is that Washington’s handling of the problem has represented the most bungled collection of misreads, misplays and misjudgments since the days of the Keystone Kops.

For those who don’t know these characters, and they predate me, even, the Keystone Kops were an insanely incompetent police force that were hilariously depicted in Mack Sennett’s slapstick, silent film farces from 1914 to the early 1920’s.

While our immigration folks at the federal level may not be insane, there’s every reason to call their competence into question. And that goes for the administration and Congress as well, who, together, have created a leadership vacuum of epic proportions.

Because of the resulting inaction, states are now increasingly taking matters into their own hands. An LA Times article cites a new report by the National Conference of State Legislatures, indicating that 171 immigration bills were enacted at the state level in the first six months of 2007, compared with 84 for the same period in 2006.

The government report goes on to say, “In the continued absence of a comprehensive federal reform…states have displayed an unprecedented level of activity and have developed a variety of their own approaches and solutions.”

The problem, in the eyes of some experts such as Tamar Jacoby, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is that these laws probably won’t work, and may only serve to make life miserable for a lot of people.

While most of the new laws impose restrictions in the areas of employment, education and healthcare, a few actually address the poor living and working conditions of the immigrants.

A Texas measure is aimed at protecting immigrants against human trafficking and a new California law extends benefits - including housing and income support - to immigrant workers.

For the most part, however, the states are getting involved because of the burden being imposed on them by the added costs of services to the illegals, according to Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that favors restrictions on immigrants.

The problem is even being addressed, although not always successfully, at the community level as well. Hazleton, Pennsylvania is a good example. In that city, the mayor had repeatedly cited a May, 2006 murder as the impetus for one of the country’s strongest measures against illegal immigrants. As a result, the city council approved an act that would penalize landlords that rent to illegal immigrants and employers who hire them.

Then, lo and behold, the situation became even more emotional when the murder charges against the two illegal immigrants that started the whole thing, were dropped in July. This prompted one ACLU official to say “This dismissal of charges adds to the long list of discredited claims (the mayor) has made in demonizing undocumented immigrants.”

And, as a final note on this matter, seemingly appropriate for such a tangled subject, a federal court, in late July, struck down the city’s new law, entirely.

Meanwhile, aside from the $3 billion it allocated for more fencing and other enforcement measures, the federal government has failed in its efforts to pass comprehensive immigration legislation.

Furthermore, its bureaucratic handling of the situation has been severely flawed.

Recently, there was the fiasco with the new travel requirements, which was so poorly planned, it had to be scrapped after it was put into effect.

And now it looks like another train wreck may be approaching. Last week, federal officials announced a new crackdown that would impose stiff penalties on businesses that did not fire their illegal workers.

The Department of Homeland Security says it will shortly issue a rule describing how businesses will be expected to act when there are discrepancies in a worker’s tax records.

The intended targets of this effort are those who have taken on bogus social security numbers. Under the new rules, when discrepancies arise, employees would have a limited time to contact the Social Security Administration, or face termination of their jobs.

However, while this might seem reasonable on its face, it may well result in an avalanche of unintended problems. According to last week’s press reports, many of the discrepancies that are embedded in the social security information are benign, involving misspellings and incorrect birthdates.

An article in last Friday’s LA Times reported that there are an estimated 12.7 million perfectly legal U.S. citizens, alone, who have errors in their records. The crush of people trying to correct the mistakes could well overwhelm the Social Security offices in much the same way that the new travel regulations swamped the passport offices earlier this year.

Overall, there were 25 million wage reports received last year by the Social Security Administration, where the names did not match the SS numbers, according to a Homeland Security spokesman. A substantial number are thought to involve native born citizens.

Beyond the chaos that could occur as people attempt to correct the records, some experts fear that the new regulations may also have the effect of leaving farmers without workers to pick the crops, restaurants without cooks and dishwashers, and small businesses without a ready source of casual labor.

A similar concern has also been expressed for the construction, janitorial and landscaping industries.

Furthermore, businesses are concerned that they may be caught between the pressure to fire someone over a mistaken record, and the possibility of a wrongful termination suit.

However, despite the potential problems, and the possible lack of planning as to the handling of them, the process is moving forward, and, at this point it seems inevitable that it will at least be implemented.

We can only hope that it doesn’t turn out to be another incompetent chapter in the saga of the Immigration Kops.

As for the overall problem, there appears to be no easy solution. The final law, if it is ever passed, may well end up being a compromise that won’t please many.

The one certainty, however, is that the longer it takes to develop a new comprehensive legislative package, the more chaotic the situation will become.

 

Dave McGill, News Correspondent……………….

Dave’s column, “The Contrarian,” published every Wednesday to Gather Essentials: News will occasionally present a contrary view to various aspects of the news, or an alternate take on the conventional wisdom of the day………….

Dave has been a senior officer of a large eastern insurance company, involved in economic projections and investment strategy, president of a Midwestern mortgage banking company, and a financial consultant in Southern California, serving clients in the field of commercial real estate development…………….

You can find all of Dave’s “The Contrarian” columns at: http://gather.com/thecontrarian...... Keep up with Dave’s other postings and Gather activity by joining his Gather network – just click here: http://atadaskew.gather.com........ You’ll find Dave and other News Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other News experts at News.gather.com.

 

 

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Comments: 192

Timothy V. Aug 8, 2007, 2:18am EDT
David..How many illegal immigrants do you have on your payroll? Just askin'
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Dave McGill Aug 8, 2007, 2:22am EDT
I HAD GREAT TROUBLE POSTING THIS ARTICLE, AND I BELIEVE I HAVE LOST SOME OF THE COMMENTS, FOR WHICH I'M TRULY SORRY. HOWEVER, I WAS ABLE TO SALVAGE THE FOLLOWING SIX, WHICH ARE SHOWN HERE:

Here in Georgia strict laws have been passed...we have a real problem with illegals here...and the illegals are really hurting the immigrants that are here legally. My daughter's class last year (4th gr) had kids from several different countries (didn't speak English either). It's hurting my daughter's education...and our schools in general.
Janet "Jax" B., Aug 8, 2007, 12:32am EDT



thanks for sharing
Angela W., Aug 8, 2007, 12:38am EDT



Our Congress is so messed up it isn't funny. These guys couldn't get together to pass gas let alone legislation. Each party is so worried about getting the upper hand that they fail to put the big issues of the AMERICAN PEOPLE that need to be resolved ahead of their petty partisan squabbles.

What PO's me is that legislation on immigration reform was raised a few years back, as was global warming and the current administration has put it's head into the sand and focused only on the war of terror. Bush and co. has essentially said to heck with all other issues.
Matt O., Aug 8, 2007, 12:47am EDT



ugh... I hate this topic, I just get too worked up about it!

I think that we need to get the illegal immigration to pretty much stop altogether. And kick the ones who are here out, no exceptions.
Heather P., Aug 8, 2007, 1:06am EDT



I am very confused as to who is supporting which aspect of the contentions around immigration and illegals. There is sure a lot of emotion involved, much I suspect generated by the various media coverages of the 'marches' a while back.

I seems to me to be more of a tempest in the tea pot thing than anything else ... and playing out as fear induced reactions ... I think the whole matter is being engineered from some high level that has things in mind that we are not meant to know about ... such as the coming North American Union ... that being why the neocon administration is not wanting to fence the borders ...
Jerry K., Aug 8, 2007, 1:56am EDT



I think that many of us want something done about the illegal immigrant situation because it taxes the legal American an untold amount of money but most of us know not what to do. If we can't come up with plans how can we expect our legislators to know what to do. Perhaps there should be some forums formed so that we can discuss the issue and really find some workable solutions.
Mischelle T., Aug 8, 2007, 2:09am EDT
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Timothy V. Aug 8, 2007, 2:24am EDT
And you forgot to include the photo of the Mexican Flag that was hoisted above a U.S. Post Office.
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Clarke M. Aug 8, 2007, 2:31am EDT
Informative article.
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Dave McGill Aug 8, 2007, 2:32am EDT
Thanks for commenting. I'll be gone during the day on Wed but I'll catch up with any comments in the evening.

Zero on the payroll, Timothy...

Thanks for sharing that info, Janet...

Good observations, Matt...

You have a lot of company, Heather....

Jerry, your "tempest in a teapot" theory is interesting....Personally, I've found it to be the most emotionally charged issue out there...

That would be an interesting approach, Mischelle....Maybe it would finally get our politicians moving on the issue...
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Dave McGill Aug 8, 2007, 2:35am EDT
There have been many incidents, Timothy, including the Hispanic girl in Dallas who was marching with an American flag, and was practically attacked for it....

Thanks for your comments, Timothy and Clarke....
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James B. Aug 8, 2007, 7:40am EDT
It's all about money, businesses make higher profits through employing illegals at low wages.
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Lisa Bouzan Aug 8, 2007, 8:52am EDT
David - GREAT article. It really makes you think. As a human being, the conditions that some of these immigrants live in are deplorable and it shouldn't be like that. Companies in this country should not be allowed to pay people under the minimum wage. As a tax and health insurance payer, enough already. It is putting such a drain on this country to educate and take care of these immigrants and their children's health. I can barely afford my health care premiums anymore. If they are here and they are going to stay, give them social security numbers, pay them at least minimum wage, and make sure they pay taxes to cover their own expenses.

With regard to that awesome photo you show at the beginning, I remember that there were gatherings around the country for something like immigrant's day and during most of those events, not only did trouble ensue, but the illegals (or legals) were tearing up American flags and only carrying Mexican flags.

I am just done with the whole thing. I wish someone would lock down the borders and just figure out what to do with what is here.
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Elizabeth "I'm Pro-Accordion and I Vote!" B. Aug 8, 2007, 9:17am EDT
Some of these comments sound anti-immigration, not just anti-illegal immigration. How does it hurt a student to be in a class with foreign students, or a school to have foreign students? Whether or not we change our immigration policies and crack down on illegal immigration, there are going to be immigrants here, and foreigners...forever. This country is a nation of immigrants.
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Richard B. Aug 8, 2007, 11:08am EDT
Very good David

The immigrant family is such a diverse group that the reality of containment of the border crossing for a job vs border crossing to sell drugs is a reality that needs to be brought together by the various families of each. However, that reality isn't in the mind of the main thread of the folks in the US and those families, as they have the history of the 'good of the nation' on their side. The balance of the 'good or the nation' folks vs, the immigrant worker in a family working to make a living here in the US only for the money they can be paid. This is also in counter balance with the drug smuggler that is paid by funds from wealthy lawyers in LA is a difficult thing for the 'good of the nation' population to grasp. But there still is a difference in why the person immigrated into the US.
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Bruce Becking Aug 8, 2007, 1:35pm EDT
David,
We are victims of our own greed and short sightedness. At some point our great Federal Lawmakers put into legislation that our Nintendo playing kids couldn't do the Jobs, Most of the ones you Posted in your article because it might scare them for life to learn about the Value of a Dollar before they go to College. The greed stems from our businesses that are profiting from the low cost of the Illegal Labor Force. The only reason people are yelling at this point is because the problem directly effects them, (Losing Jobs to Lower paid Illegals and loss of benefits). What we need to start asking is When Is Enough Money Enough and at What Cost to the workers? People want to make this issue about the poor Illegal Imigrant coming to America to find a better life. What we should be asking is Why cant the Illegals find a better life in there own Country? Has anyone stoped to think about what it has taken to make this Great Nation in less than 300 Years?? Most of the Nations that represent the mass of Illegal Imigrants have been around much longer than the USA. Why cant they get it right? Why should our system pay for there corruption in there governments and police? When are other nations going to start standing up to the injustices of there nations? Do you think allowing them open range to our Country is the answer to any of these questions? We as Americans need to quit looking out for only our backyards and the fences we put around them. Its time to start looking out for the good of the Taxpaying American (Legal Citizens) and that is collectively all of us who are here (Legally). Does anyone know how much in business we as Americans sent to Mexico and China Last year in the amount of Dollars and if yes how much of that money got to the Guys producing the goods we are buying back from them? I know China is paying 30 cents an hour and Malaysia is paying 12 cents an hour for labor. Im not sure what the average Joe is getting in Mexico but im sure its not much. Point is where is all the money going in those countries? America needs to stop being the Handout Nation of the World and start making other countries stand on there own two feet and take care of there people.
The Basic Pilot Program is a good start in weeding out the Companies who hire Illegals and the Illegals themselves. Right now there are 5 states that have adopted and put into law the Basic Pilot Program. What I see happening is if enough of the United States put into law the Basic Pilot Program the Federal Law Makers will have to follow suit if they want any continuety in the program. We as Legal Americans Citizins need to contact our Political Reps and let them know our opinions about there inactions to fix this festering Issue.
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Karl Leuba Aug 8, 2007, 1:36pm EDT
I don't know what to say David. I don't want you to stop saying any of it. On the immigration issue, I find a strange dichotomy. Ceasar Chavez is a Hero in the Southwest, Especially California and Arizona. There is a memorial park dedicated to him in the City/County Complex in Downtown Phoenix. It is between the Country Courthouse, and the Municipal Courthouse, The City hall and the Old County Courts building, which is still in use, except for its top floor jail.

Cesar Chaves was the founder of the United Farm Workers Union. He unionized the Undocumented workers who harvested crops in the fields of California And Arizona in the late 1970's. Some people credit him with the amnesty policy of the Regan Era. He is honored in many ways, Schools are named after him, social centers, private, non profit and government supported are named after him. Yet, his life's work was UNIONIZING ILLEGAL ALIENS. My brain is having a tough time wrapping around this.
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Bruce Becking Aug 8, 2007, 1:46pm EDT
David,
As far as the flag issue that is just blatent disregard for our Flag and it absolutely kills me to see that. Right here in the little town I live in we have a grocery store that flys the Mexican flag and has Red White and Green banners flying all over it. The labels in the store are in Spanish. Doesn't anyone see the problem with this???? I will leave my Country because Im Oppressed and then come to yours and fly the flag of the Country I left in the middle of the night. Sorry but I dont get it!
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Col. George W. Aug 8, 2007, 2:34pm EDT
THERE IS NO NEED FOR LEGISLATION! D**it the laws are ON the books NOW. It is ILLEGAL to enter the United States without going through the immigration process. IT IS A MATTER OF ENFORCING THE LAW. That is a police matter not a legislative matter.

What part of ILLEGAL is not understood?
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Col. George W. Aug 8, 2007, 2:43pm EDT
During the Clinton administration he approved administering the oath of citizenship in SPANISH. It was all over the news and our "esteemed" press though that was "so wonderful". Corporate interests at work again.

The movement toward a NAU is the most dangerous thing to our National Sovernity sinse NAFTA. If we the people don't do something about it NOW we will no longer have a United States.

Check out my article "The NAFTA Highway and Why We Don't Want it" Then check out my articles on Ron Paul
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 3:41pm EDT
Actually Karl, Chavez was against illegal immigration, Check-out this Url:
http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_02_27/article.html
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 3:59pm EDT
Here are some wonderful videos------including what these illegal invaders did with our flag------that should please people like David and "running on half a brain cell" Elizabeth.

These videos were filmed in California during the marches and subsequent protests. Please watch them......As they will be coming to a neighborhood near you very soon!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM
Notice the Mexican flags. Notice the "Europeans go home" signs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59ivs0mz1ok
Hear them screaming...."Whose streets......Our Streets"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uhua9tnZNo
Illegals take down US flag and put up Mexican flag during protest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCVUot-hBo
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Elizabeth "I'm Pro-Accordion and I Vote!" B. Aug 8, 2007, 4:17pm EDT
It never ceases to amaze me that when I provide arguments, facts, statistics and evidence, I am countered by personal invective and hateful remarks such as "Running on half a brain cell Elizabeth" and references to you tube videos. The question remains unrebutted -- how does it hurt children to go to school with foreigners? Calling me names and referring me to Youtube videos doesn't rebut that question.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 5:10pm EDT
Elizabeth, The only thing that you ever provide is arguments, no statistics, no evidence, and the only thing fact based that you have is something that you spun into something favorable to the invasion of the United States of America. Such as " How does it hurt a student to be in a class with foreign students, or a school to have foreign students"? The answer is....nothing as long as the student is trying to assimilate into becoming an American. Not changing the entire school system to teach these children the fallacy of why the Americans stole half of the United States.
This is one of your favorites," This country is a nation of immigrants." The answer.....No this country is a nation of United States Citizens, immigrants do not make up the base of this country. And another thing, now that we're on the subject, illegal aliens don't belong in this country period. If they want to come to this country...sign-up and line-up.One more thing Elizabeth, it takes a citizen to make a citizen..... unless they sign-up and become a citizen through the legal system. Why don't you bring some YouTube for rebuttle, you know, the ones that tell us why it's so great to have these illegal invaders in our country.
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LEЯA © Politcally Incorrect M. Aug 8, 2007, 5:14pm EDT
"Running on half a brain cell Elizabeth"

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
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Elizabeth "I'm Pro-Accordion and I Vote!" B. Aug 8, 2007, 6:16pm EDT
More personal invective.
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Nippy Katz (not his real name) Patriotic Troll of Gather Freedom Aug 8, 2007, 6:50pm EDT
All depends on how you define "nation of immigrants." My grandparents on my father's side came to this country a little before 1900. My mother's family arrived here before the Revolution. We're all either immigrants or the descendants of immigrants.

The whole thing about the army of illegal invaders is a red herring. Yup, there are a lot of people who entered this country illegally. Why do you think they did that? I'm guessing that they figured they had a chance of finding a job. The obvious next question is "Why do you think they were so sure they'd find a job?" The answer, it seems to me, is that employers are eager to hire them.

If there's a problem the problem is that there are a lot of employers who want to hire people to work a lower wages than they'd probably have to pay an American citizen.

You have to ask yourself, "Who's worse, the employer who wants to hire illegal immigrants at substandard wages in preference to American citizens or the person who sneaks into this country to get a job at substandard wages?"

It seems to me that there are two groups of people who are getting hurt here, American citizens who are being deprived of jobs because employers want cheaper labor and the people who enter the country illegally in order to earn a substandard wage. The people who are benefiting are the employers. They get cheap labor and the people they hire won't complain about pay or working conditions because they're afraid of being deported. Sounds like a sweet deal for the employers.
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Bruce Becking Aug 8, 2007, 7:22pm EDT
Nippy,
Two different breeds of red herrings. Your relatives I would bet came into this country through Legal Means. We are talking about Illegal Imigrants, Not legal.
Lyndon,
Question is how are you talking in a Vacuum?
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 7:27pm EDT
Check this out Elizabeth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOl5F-bffqk&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZYyDLLfeP8&NR=1
Now this is invective.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 7:36pm EDT
Lyndon, Here's some of those poor downtrodden illegal aliens that you're talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Ovem7fdjQ
How mnany of these poor down trodden people do you have in you neighborhood, I've got 9,000 of these gang bangers in my neighborhood.
I take it you also don't like America, as don't your counterparts.
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Nippy Katz (not his real name) Patriotic Troll of Gather Freedom Aug 8, 2007, 7:40pm EDT
We're still a nation of immigrants. Whether or not people entered the country legally has no bearing on that particular question. We're all either immigrants or descendants of immigrants.

I doubt my mom's family did anything but get on a ship where they started and get off the ship when it landed here. Things were different back before the US was a country. My father's parents went through Ellis Island.

My wife's mother's family came to South Dakota from Norway via Canada in the late 1800s. I'm not sure what they had to do in order to cross the border. Her father's family came around the Horn and settled in California around the time of the gold rush. I'm not sure what they had to do either.

Any of us may have an ancestor who entered the country illegally. Maybe not but you never know.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 7:49pm EDT
Nippy in your circle you might all be immigrants, but the rest of us are U.S. Citizens.
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Nippy Katz (not his real name) Patriotic Troll of Gather Freedom Aug 8, 2007, 7:52pm EDT
Bob, thank heaven. That way you can feel superior to me. Enjoy yourself.
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Bruce Becking Aug 8, 2007, 8:23pm EDT
Nippy,
My ancestors that came here from the Netherlands boarded a ship in France and was in the belly of that ship for close to three months where it docked in New Orleans. They were processed through Imigration and continued up the Mississippi River (Hope I spelled that right) and settled in Missouri as Farmers. One of my Grandfathers was born on that ship durring the crossing. The conditions on that ship was deplorable. The point here is that when they signed there names on the dotted line at the Imigration office after a barage of quarenteens and medical checks they became Legal Citizens of the United States of America. They no longer had the designation Imigrant, Legal or Illegal. Have you noticed there is no designation of Illegal American like Hispanic American, African American, Caucation American, Native American. Notice the common denominator (AMERICAN). An Illegal Imigrant still belongs to his or her Soveriegn Nation as long as they are designated Illegal Or as some would like to say Undocumented.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 8:25pm EDT
Not everyone in this country is a citizen of it Nippy, this is what the stink is all about.
All that I ask is that when coming to my country, please observe the rules, and if you want to stay, sign-up. Now, whats so hard about that? Superiority doesn't even play into this dilemma. Do you honestly believe that when a foreigner acquires a job in the United States that his employer is looking to feel superior to that person or do you think that he wants to know if that person is here legally?
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Elizabeth "I'm Pro-Accordion and I Vote!" B. Aug 8, 2007, 8:53pm EDT
Bruce, you really believe that your people did not carry the designation "immigrant" just because they emigrated here legally? What do you think an immigrant is? It has nothing to do with legal status.
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 8:56pm EDT
Karl...

"Yet, his life's work was UNIONIZING ILLEGAL ALIENS. My brain is having a tough time wrapping around this."

You have been misinformed about Cesar Chavez. He formed a union with "LEGAL" immigrants. In fact, his union boys would beat down the "ILLEGALS" with bats and clubs whenever they found them working on U.S. soil. The very fact that you and others don't know the facts is exactly what the pro-illegal immigrant people are counting on when they use Cesar Chavez' name to further their agenda. I can tell you for certain he was AGAINST illegal immigration of anykind, and especially from Mexico. Right now he's probably turning in his grave!
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 9:18pm EDT
Elizabeth...

"What do you think an immigrant is? It has nothing to do with legal status."

I beg to differ. It DOES have everything to do with legal status. There are only two types if "immigrant', "legal" and "illegal". Legal immigrants come here like Bruce's ancestors did, i.e. "PROCESSED through immigration, "QUARANTEENED",
"MEDICALLY CHECKED" etc., NEVER obtaining a status of being illegal. Illegal immigrants come here having gone through NONE of the above thereby creating their own "illegal" status. So, to call an ILLEGAL immigrant simply an immigrant is to try to justify their illegal presence here in the U.S., which is what you are doing. But then, you already know that...don't you?
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 9:49pm EDT
Elizabeth...

"The question remains unrebutted -- how does it hurt children to go to school with foreigners? Calling me names and referring me to Youtube videos doesn't rebut that question."

Where have you been? Our schools (in some areas) have had to lower the standard curriculum just to pass non-English speaking kids. Do you think that would hurt your kids in the long run? It's commonly referred to as "the dumming down of America".
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 10:07pm EDT
Lyndon...

They won't give you " pox-infested blankets". Just TB, Leperocy, polio, and other diseases.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 10:28pm EDT
Lyndon, Lets here your reasoning for legitimizing 5,000 people invading our country each and every day.You must have the kind of job that makes money off the backs of these people.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 10:32pm EDT
The Native Indians slaughtered each others tribes. The Indian didn't own any land at that time. They all migrated around to different areas depending on the season.
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 10:44pm EDT
Bob...

Don't ya just LOVE it when these pro-illegal fools try to use the Native Americans, and how this country was stolen by "illegal" immigrants? This guy's a real example of having been "dumbed down", don't you think?
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 11:05pm EDT
Lyndon, I'm sure you've got more to say about this subject. Or is this the way that you go about expressing your beliefs/opinions. Tell me Lyndon are you pro-illegal? Or are you one of those people that believe the southwest was stolen by the whiteman?
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 11:10pm EDT
Bob...

I think I made him cry!
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:23pm EDT
HG:

You are 100% correct about Cesar Chavez-----he definitely did NOT support illegals-----and he did resort to physical means of stopping them when nothing else worked!!

Wikopedia gives an excellent history of Cesar Chavez------he was definitely a very decent and admirable man.
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:28pm EDT
Bob/Bruce:

These people don't even know the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigrants.

They do not have facts/stats------and they believe all of the BS that is being put out there by the illegals and their supporters.

They are not even aware that the majority LEGAL immigrants----including LEGAL Latinos do NOT support rewarding the illegals in any way whatsoever. They also demand that our borders be closed/secured and our current immigration laws be enforced.

Maybe they should check out this organization "You Don't Speak for Me"-----which is made up of LEGAL Latinos who are totally against rewarding the illegals in any way whatsoever!!!

www.dontspeakforme.org
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 11:30pm EDT
H.G. You're brutal dude, Here's a movie we can watch while we're waiting for Lyndon to show up. If he can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxcAJZlv90o&mode=related&search=
I'm with you H.G. these pro-illegal people must have an ulterior motive for wanting the invasion of the U.S. I know that it can't be property that they own and want to sell it to the illegals. They tried that here with the giving out of the matricular consular cards hoping that it would give them the chance to buy homes in America. Well it flopped, and now all those mortgage companies that made deals with them are all going belly-up.
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 11:34pm EDT
Bob...

Yep...foreclosures are everywhere!

Hi! Brenda!
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:35pm EDT
Lyndon:

You are clueless-----I bet you would be singing a different tune if your job is given to an illegal----or your wages are decreased due to illegals.

I bet the sympathy would disappear if your SS number or identity is stolen by an illegal-----they take out thousands of dollars in loans and ruin your credit!! Or, you get a knock on the door by the IRS for thousands of dollars of back taxes that you owe---because an illegal was using your information----and you are the one stuck dishing out the money to pay for attorneys and everything else so that maybe 5 years later everything is straightened out.

Or, maybe one of your family members will be raped, robbed, involved in a car crash with a drunk illegal----or murdered by an illegal-------who has been arrested 5 times previously using a different name-----and then just slid back over the border until everything cooled down.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 11:38pm EDT
Brenda, I posted an Url on this site at 3:41 pm about Mr. Chavez and a little of his biography. Check it out while we're waiting for Lyndon, we might have a long wait. He's kinda like a little chihuahua dog....bites you on the leg then hauls ass.
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:43pm EDT
HG:

You are also right about the schools!!

---US citizens are paying taxes to have decent schools. Yet, they are letting illegals---or the children of illegals----attend these schools on the tax payers dime.

Then, instead of this money being used to provide equipment, teachers, programs, etc.------it is being used to provide tutors, translators, ESL classes, etc. for the children of illegals!!!

Then, in order for the schools to continue to receive funding through "No child left behind"----they have to dummy down their programs/grading scales, etc.-----so that the children of the illegals can pass----as the funding they receive is based on the grades and the number of students who pass.

There was someone on another site who was from Mississippi-----which is an area that has been hit real hard by illegals----due to Katrina. She said that her son just started kindergarten last year. She said that because of all of the illegals the schools are now overcrowded-----her son's kindergarten class was actually held in a trailer!!!
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:44pm EDT
HG:

Hi HG!!
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 11:46pm EDT
Bob...

I have a better idea! Go check out his/her homepage and read all his/her comments. This guy/girl seems to insult everyone that he/she doesn't agree with.
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:50pm EDT
Also, for those of you that are not aware.......Here is how our ancestors came into the country LEGALLY------and it is the same thing now for the millions of people throughout the world who are now trying to come into our country through the proper, legal process.

First, they had to have money to begin the process.

They had to fill out mounds and mounds of paperwork and wait in line

They had to have health checks/screenings

They had to prove that they would not be a burden for other citizens or society as a whole

They got here and learned the language, assimmilated, and became part of the melting pot.

They did not demand that the flag of their homeland be flown, they did not demand that everyone else learn their language, they did not expect special treatment/accommodations-------they became AMERICANS.
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 11:51pm EDT
Brenda...

Yep! Facts are facts! I work for a school district here and I see it all first hand.
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Bob M. Aug 8, 2007, 11:53pm EDT
H.G. Most of these pro-illegal people are living in small rural communities, 30,000 or so people surrounded by corn and soy bean fields. Most of the young men have been shipped to Iraq to fight against tyranny, and to fight for our freedoms. So now these poor farmers are faced with a dilemma.....Who are going to tend the crops. You guessed it, the illegal invaders that are just "doing the work Americans won't do". So these people know 10 or 12 illegals and they base their whole knowledge of the situation on this. As Brenda so eloquently put it....Clueless!
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Brenda M Aug 8, 2007, 11:55pm EDT
I was never this blunt before. However, -----as I am sure that Bob, Bruce, HG, and some others are aware-----it is now getting to the point that we truly are fighting for our country----and these people are willing to help them take it!!

Currently, we are losing jobs and having our wages lowered due to illegals-----now the Dems passed bills that we also have to pay for their healthcare, welfare, WIC, foodstamps, etc.

It is just getting unbelievable------like living in a scene from the Twilight Zone!!

When these clueless people finally wake up and get a clue-----it is going to be too late!!
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H. G. Aug 8, 2007, 11:55pm EDT
Bob...

ABSOLUTELY!
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Timothy V. Aug 8, 2007, 11:56pm EDT
H.G. ....I thought that I was brutal, but damn dude, you've outdone me!

Do you guys now see why I hit these people straight between the eyes instead of engaging in reasonable debate with them?
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Timothy V. Aug 9, 2007, 12:01am EDT
And where's David? I'd bet that he's rushing to get all of his illegal immigrant employes off of his property before ICE raids the place!
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:02am EDT
Tim:

I am definitely a hit them between the eyes person as well. It is now getting too important and urgent to engage in debate and coddling.
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 12:03am EDT
Brenda...

What really irritates the s**t out of me is that the pro-illegal side, bleeding hearts etc. don't take the time to research and investigate what's really going on. To them, it's a game of argument for the sake of argument. If they really cared they would spend a little time learning the truth and not tending to their bleeding hearts. I agree if they don't wake up soon, it WILL be too late!
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:04am EDT
Bob:

Yep, you are right exactly-----the majority of the pro-illegal people live in small, rural communities----and have met less than 20 illegals------so they have no clue as to the true facts/stats and magnitude of the problem.
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Denise- Marie Aug 9, 2007, 12:05am EDT
Brenda is right on.

Fences: if employers comply with labor laws surrounding illegals...and state and federal laws already in place are withheld...we wouldnt need higher, longer fences.
The fence is a ...a trojan horse. It cant be built without the labor it's supposed to ride off..
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Col. George W. Aug 9, 2007, 12:08am EDT
The question remains unrebutted -- how does it hurt children to go to school with foreigners? I've gone to school with foreigners a time or two. They had a student visa just so they could attend classes in the supperior schools in the US. The quest actually is does it hurt your childred to go to school with ILLEGAL immagrants kids who DO NOT SPEAK OR UNDERSTAND ENGLISH and don't want to learn? Yep it sure does. Your childred do not get the quality education you are paying for. They have to make it a lot easier and take more time interpreting for those who do not understand. Therefore there is not as much time to teach either group what they need to know.
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:08am EDT
HG:

"What really irritates the s**t out of me is that the pro-illegal side, bleeding hearts etc. don't take the time to research and investigate what's really going on. To them, it's a game of argument for the sake of argument."

I agree 100%

That is why I continually refer to them as clueless. They do not bother looking at real info/facts/stats-----and use the BS that is being presented by the illegals, La Raza, some of our politicians, and all other illegal supporters-----to base their decisions.
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Timothy V. Aug 9, 2007, 12:09am EDT
Brenda ..Exactly. From what I've seen here on the internet, most of the people who advocate for illegal immigration also support the trade imbalance with China.

I for one, just as many people, are suspect of these people's motives. Have you ever wondered just how many of these people are being paid to blog here and spread propaganda in support of illegal immigration and the trade imbalance with China in an attempt to sway public opinion?

There is no debating with these people. They are willing to sell us out on the turn of a dime.
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 12:09am EDT
Tim...

Hey bro! where ya been? I'm gonna have to tag off to you now since it's time to hit the rack. This lyndon probably won't be back till tomorrow, since I made him cry. Besides it will probably take him that long just to think of something to say! LOL!
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 12:12am EDT
Denise, Col. George...

You both are absolutely correct...and thank you!
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:18am EDT
Denise:

Yep, you are right......Lift up the red carpet so that they cannot get jobs, welfare, WIC, foodstamps, medical, etc.------and they will leave and quit coming!!
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Col. George W. Aug 9, 2007, 12:18am EDT
Want to know what one of the candidates for President has to say about this?

Below is what Republican (Libertarian) Dr Ron Paul has to say


Border Security and Immigration Reform
"The talk must stop. We must secure our borders now. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. This is my six point plan:

Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals.
Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas.
No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That's a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws.
No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong.
Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods."

I think he has it all under control all we have to do is elect him.
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:21am EDT
Colonel:

I like Ron Paul as well-----but the powers that be do not want him or Tancredo to get into office.

Our best chance/choice may end up being Mitt Romney.

The Iowa straw polls will be on August 11-----I guess that we will know a little more at that time!!
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:25am EDT
Tim:

I agree with you.....These people do no research/investigating----regurgitate everything that is being said by the pro-illegals, politicians, etc.----and then simply form their opinions.

They use the same method for forming their decisions regarding China----the unfair trade balance, currency manipulation, and them sending us defective/poisoned imports.

Did you hear that China is now threatening us---due to the US getting a little tough regarding trade??

I also agree that the site probably uses some paid plants to try to sway opinions.
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:26am EDT
Tim:

David is just relaxed and at ease in his gated community in Southern California-----no worries for him.
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Timothy V. Aug 9, 2007, 12:39am EDT
Brenda..Yep,I heard that. The Chinese Government is also stating that the lead content in their toys isn't a health hazzard..go figure.

You need to check out my recent article as well as my recent comments on the subject.
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Don(time to open them FEMA camps) S. Aug 9, 2007, 12:57am EDT
The question remains unrebutted -- how does it hurt children to go to school with foreigners?
Answer : It does not hurt at all.
As long as they are here legally.
Personally I love immigrants.(as most anti illegal immigrant folks do).
Some of the best and hardest workers I have ever known are legal immigrants.
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Bruce Becking Aug 9, 2007, 1:02am EDT
Hello all,
Elizebeth,
When my ansectors left the imigration screening in New Orleans they were Caucation Americans. (Legal AMERICANS). What dont you get?
Brenda, Tim, Bob, H.G.,
Been doing some thinking about the Illegal Problem. With all the technology we have today our legislators should enact a Law that every Illegal found here in America should have there DNA taken and put on file. Once they are deported all persons applying for Legal Status or a Visa has to go through a DNA check. If they are found to have been here Illegaly in the past they not be given the right to apply for Citizinship. I know this is only part of a solution but we realy need to get the problem of our Southern Border taken care of immediatly. A 50 ft. wall with a mine field on both sides.
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Bruce Becking Aug 9, 2007, 2:07am EDT
Lyndon,
Let me guess, Your an Illegal from a Communist block country and your still licking your wounds over the cold war you lost in your infinate wisdom by us ignoramouses??? Right???? Your Pathedic. If you hate this Country so much go spread your Ignorance somewhere it will be appreciated, Like China.
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Dave McGill Aug 9, 2007, 2:08am EDT
A spirited give and take proving once again that this is the number one issue in the country, although I wish the war was. I think the thing is that this affects more people more directly than the war.

I appreciate the comments from Lisa Bouzan, Karl, et al... and way too many to address individually. And besides, most of you were directing your comments to each other, except Lisa who made some great points, Karl and Bruce, who both also made some good points and Timothy...(LOL Timothy)....If I missed anyone else who directed a comment to me, I'm sorry...
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Bob M. Aug 9, 2007, 10:15am EDT
Once again Lyndon, I'm here waiting for your wisdom to shine through, but alas, the only thing that you can come-up with is stories you've been dreaming about. How about bringing some facts to the table about how much good it does to have this country invaded by people that could care less about this country or its people.Another thing, if you think that the American people don't know who the blame should squarely be placed at. You definately have a derangement problem. Do yourself a favor......Take a trip to Chicago for the weekend and stay in the barrio, hang out with some of the gangstas, then come back and tell me that they only want to come here to support their familys or maybe anything else you might have observed, that is if you make it back.
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 12:20pm EDT
David:

"this is the number one issue in the country, although I wish the war was. I think the thing is that this affects more people more directly than the war."

Yes, it affects more people than the war.

Plus, it is the fact that these people are on US soil------after invading our country, now DEMANDING that we just let them take it over.

Plus, it is all of the injustices against US citizens---------

--US citizens are expected to follow the laws, illegals get to choose which laws they want to follow.

--US citizens have to pay for car registrations, insurance, etc.-----and are fined/jailed if they do not------illegals are given a pass regarding these inconveniences for them.

--US citizens have to pay for health insurance------illegals get to use our hospitals/clinics/ERs, etc. in order to receive FREE healthcare

--US citizens pay school taxes-------yet the money that should be going to programs, teachers, tools, etc for the children of LEGAL citizens----who pay the taxes----is now being spent on tutors, translators, ESL classes, etc. for the children of the illegal invaders.

--If a US citizen is caught committing document fraud, identity theft, etc.-----they are facing jail time. Illegals get a slap on the wrist, or nothing!!

--If a US citizen needs to apply for any type of social benefit-------they have numerous hoops to jump through, must provide document after document as proof----illegals are not convenienced in that way-----in most instances, they are not even allowed to question their citizenship status.

I could go on and on!!
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Bruce Becking Aug 9, 2007, 12:27pm EDT
Brenda,
Have you noticed Numbers USA kind of falling off on persueing issues? Can you offer some other sights to go to for that kind of interaction with Political agenda's? Thanks in advance.
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 1:14pm EDT
Bruce:

Here is another GREAT organization........They are close to the size of numbers and are also very active.

http://www.alipac.us

Did you hear the latest news about the 4 teens who were gunned down in NJ?? CNN just did a news conference----one 15 year old Hispanic teen was arrested (considered a citizen)-----but it sounds like the others might be ILLEGALS!!!
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 1:31pm EDT
Lyndon...

"You doorknobs didn't hit anybody between the eyes. You're all asleep at the wheel of your sissymobile. Your real enemies are the ones you're all bent over for and guiding in. Of course you've been trained to think like your inbred folks but you're all sitting ducks with your cheeks spread trying to top each other in a contest to see is the simplest sucker. Your cowardice will shine through and your ignorant talk will choke in your throats log-jammed up against the phallus of your bosses."

Is THIS the best you can do after all this time? Hell, I was hoping you'd turn out to be a mental GIANT, now I'm disappointed that I've wasted my time talking to a mental PYGMY! Did you ever make it past high school? Or are you on the 20 year plan?! ROFLMAO!!
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 1:33pm EDT
Brenda...

Are those the ones that were shot "execution style" in the schoolyard?
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cecile s. Aug 9, 2007, 1:44pm EDT
Many people are leaving the United States because of all the problems caused by the real controllers of our country which are the big corporations. Many legal Latinos are just as upset. The truth is that we are on the way to becoming the North American Union with or without our consent. The highway is beilng built from Mexico thru our country to Canada. Our dollar will soon become the Amero, or some such name to connect our financial intstitutions. Young people of Mexico have already been educated with our dollars to be able to run the systems that connect all three countries. It is just a matter of time before we are no longer the United States of America and become part of the North American Union with no borders to protect. This is the real reason behind the delay in shutting off our borders. I never thought I would see the day when our great country was in such great peril and no longer a government run by the people for the people. I feel great anguish for our children and grandchildren who will inherit this situation.
cecile
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 1:53pm EDT
Cecile...

Very well said...and true! It is unfortunate that so many people in the U.S. still don't 'get it'! Who will they bame when this country becomes a Socialist Republic, run by the rich elitists who's only concerned with money and power? Will they still blame us "racist xenophobes"? Will they enjoy paying tax money to the U.N.?
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 1:54pm EDT
HG:

Hi HG!! Yes, those were the teenagers who were shot execution style at the elementary school!!

It "sounds" like the 15 year old might be an anchor baby and the 31 year old is an illegal from Equador!! They are still looking for other suspects!!
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 1:57pm EDT
Cecile:

The elections still provide hope!!

Even if we do not get Ron Paul, Tom Tancredo, or Mitt Romney in office as president----as long as we get enough pro-USA politiicans in the House and Senate we can still win this!!
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H. G. Aug 9, 2007, 2:01pm EDT
Brenda...

And we will NEVER give up until we do!!
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Bob M. Aug 9, 2007, 2:10pm EDT
Cecile, I know at this point in time that it looks hopeless to some, but the American people aren't going to lay down and let the Elites take over our country as have Mexico, Venezuela, El Salvadore, Guatemala, and all those countries south of our border. Most of us have their eyes wide open Cecile, as do you.
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cecile s. Aug 9, 2007, 2:32pm EDT
Well, David did slay Goliath and I hear lots of talk of a coming revolution but I am losing hope, sad to say, Brenda. I was at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed as a child. I was in West Germany as a young girl & bride of an Army Officer in the first few years after the war and helped many refugees who managed to escape to the freedom of West Germany. I have seen first hand how people suffer at the hands of their Governments. I never thought I would see the day when America would be in such trouble as it is now.
cecile
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Bob M. Aug 9, 2007, 2:49pm EDT
Well Lyndon, Now your on to something that you might have more knowledge of.....
lemmings! Since you've come up with a new card to play...Nationalism is a mental illness, What happen to all the old phrases that communists like to play? Racist cards,God cards, Guilt cards, (Where's Timothy when you need him?) cards of all the old phrases that Answer people like to play. You are an Answer person, aren't you? WE know who I am, I'm a bigot because I live by a creed. And now I have a new mental illness because I love America and believe in its sovereignity. Lets "see" if you know who you are Lyndon.
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cecile s. Aug 9, 2007, 3:19pm EDT
Lyndon, I have never hated anyone, no matter what country they are from. I am definitely not a coward. I have seen the injustices in other countries having been born a Navy brat and married to an Army Officer, I have always been grateful for being an American in the land of the free. I cannot equate that with schizophrenia.
I hear that the people in the European Union are not happy with their new status. I am sure they have good reasons. There are good reasons that we will not be happy with being part of such a union as well. Peace be with you.
cecile
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Brenda M Aug 9, 2007, 3:25pm EDT
Lyndon:

Where exactly is Galesburg?

I find it out that you spell Amerika instead of America-----is there a reason for that??
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Bob M. Aug 9, 2007, 3:52pm EDT
Lyndon, you sure know how to carry on a conversation. I think we can pretty much sum-up who exactly has all the hate wrapped up inside. You're not the only one thats hates America and what it stands for. You're a man without a country eh Lyndon? I'm surprised that you even allow yourself to live in such a country as this. I'm sure there are lots of countries that are worthy of person with the likes of you. How about Ireland for starters?
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Ch