Newsweek has an intresting article about Climate Change this week. It looks at how Climate Predicitons are hard to do. In the Seventies when everyone was worried about the world cooling scientists actually suggested pooring soot over the artic ice caps to get them to melt. Imagine if we had taken that advice. I think that it is an intresting point that should be remembered today. Large groups are using the same kind of alarmism to try to change the way our society is composed today. These same groups have been unsucessful for decades to get their agenda through government so they have seized on this widespread panic global warming event to try to force it through now. It is important not to give into this fear because this warming too could just be a part of a natural cycle.
Remember Worries About Global Cooling?
Oct. 23, 2006 - In April, 1975, in an issue mostly taken up with stories about the collapse of the American-backed government of South Vietnam, NEWSWEEK published a small back-page article about a very different kind of disaster. Citing "ominous signs that the earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically," the magazine warned of an impending "drastic decline in food production." Political disruptions stemming from food shortages could affect "just about every nation on earth." Scientists urged governments to consider emergency action to head off the terrible threat of . . . well, if you had been following the climate-change debates at the time, you'd have known that the threat was: global cooling.
More than 30 years later, that little story is still being quoted regularly—as recently as last month on the floor of the Senate by Republican Sen. James Inhofe, chair of the Environment and Public Works Committee and the self-proclaimed scourge of climate alarmists. The article's appeal to Inhofe, of course, is not its prescience, but the fact that it was so spectacularly wrong about the near-term future. Even by the time it appeared, a decades-long trend toward slightly cooler temperatures in the Northern hemisphere had already begun to reverse itself—although that wouldn't be apparent in the data for a few years yet—leading to today's widespread consensus among scientists that the real threat is actually human-caused global warming. In fact, as Inhofe pointed out, for more than 100 years journalists have quoted scientists predicting the destruction of civilization by, in alternation, either runaway heat or a new Ice Age. The implication he draws is that if you're not worried about being trampled by a stampede of woolly mammoths through downtown Chicago, you don't have to believe what the media is saying about global warming, either.
But is that the right lesson to draw? How did NEWSWEEK—or for that matter, Time magazine, which also ran a story on the subject in the mid-1970s—get things so wrong? In fact, the story wasn't "wrong" in the journalistic sense of "inaccurate." Some scientists indeed thought the Earth might be cooling in the 1970s, and some laymen—even one as sophisticated and well-educated as Isaac Asimov—saw potentially dire implications for climate and food production. After all, Ice Ages were common in Earth's history; if anything, the warm "interglacial" period in which human civilization evolved, and still exists, is the exception. The cause of these periodic climatic shifts is still being studied and debated, but many scientists believe they are influenced by small changes in the Earth's orbit around the Sun (including its "eccentricity," or the extent to which it deviates from a perfect circle) and the tilt of its rotation. As calculated by the mathematician Milutin Milankovitch in the 1920s, these factors vary on interlocking cycles of around 20,000, 40,000 and 100,000 years, and if nothing else changed they would be certain to bring on a new Ice Age at some time. In the 1970s, there were scientists who thought this shift might be imminent; more recent data, according to William Connolley, a climate scientist at the British Antarctic Survey who has made a hobby of studying Ice Age predictions, suggest that it might be much farther off.
But in any case, climatologists now are mostly agreed that human impacts will swamp the effects of the Milankovitch cycles. The question has been, which specific impacts? In the mid-1970s, scientists were focusing on an increase of dust and "aerosols" (suspended droplets of liquid, mostly sulfuric acid) in the atmosphere. These, the result of increased agriculture and burning of coal in power plants, lower the Earth's temperature by reflecting sunlight back into space. Ironically, clean-air laws in North America and Europe had the effect of reducing aerosols (which cause acid rain), so the predominant influence on climate now is the buildup of carbon dioxide—which traps the Earth's heat in the lower atmosphere and contributes to global warming.
As late as 1992, in a story that for some reason has gotten far less attention, NEWSWEEK revisited the Ice Age threat, this time posing it as a perverse consequence of the greenhouse effect. Citing the theories of an "amateur scientist and professional prophet of doom named John Hamaker," the article raised the specter that a small increase in air temperature could cause more snow to fall in places like northern Greenland, where the ground is often bare. (Extremely cold air doesn't hold enough moisture for a good snowfall.) Increased snow cover, by reflecting more sunlight back into space, could trigger a return of the glaciers to North America. Although the intricate web of positive and negative feedbacks that control climate are still not fully understood, that particular scenario hasn't gotten much attention in the last decade.
The point to remember, says Connolley, is that predictions of global cooling never approached the kind of widespread scientific consensus that supports the greenhouse effect today. And for good reason: the tools scientists have at their disposal now—vastly more data, incomparably faster computers and infinitely more sophisticated mathematical models—render any forecasts from 1975 as inoperative as the predictions being made around the same time about the inevitable triumph of communism. Astronomers have been warning for decades that life on Earth could be wiped out by a collision with a giant meteorite; it hasn't happened yet, but that doesn't mean that journalists have been dupes or alarmists for reporting this news. Citizens can judge for themselves what constitutes a prudent response-which, indeed, is what occurred 30 years ago. All in all, it's probably just as well that society elected not to follow one of the possible solutions mentioned in the NEWSWEEK article: to pour soot over the Arctic ice cap, to help it melt.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15391426/site/newsweek/page/0/


Comments: 44
Last I heard Plants live on Carbon Dioxide. So why are not all plants growing faster and faster as the amount of CO2 increases? Fossel fuels, gas -oil-coal all give off a lot of Carbon Monoxide ( CO) and very little CO2. So why would making cars that get better milage help?
Seems that someone always has to have some dire forcast in the works. I've been around a lot of years and there has always been something.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/climate
cli·mate /ˈklaɪmɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klahy-mit] –noun 1. the composite or generally prevailing weather conditions of a region, as temperature, air pressure, humidity, precipitation, sunshine, cloudiness, and winds, throughout the year, averaged over a series of years.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/10/global-cooling-again/
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11643
I gotta hand it to you "skeptics", though, you never grow tired of repeating the same distortions, over and over, no matter how many times they have been corrected.
In any case, here's the Newsweek story that you'll need to be paying attention to:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20122975/site/newsweek/
And the agenda is...?
ModernDay: "I firmly believe...."
Yes. Faith-based proclamations trump science, scientific conclusions, scientific associations.
ModernDay: "But dont let facts get in the way of a global movement to take away freedom and choice"
Facts? You confuse faith ("I firmly believe....") with facts.
I see you have a disciple, Katie, who also says: "I really don't believe we humans have anything to do with that." In your view, that probably also qualifies as a fact.
Here's scientific fact, but I don't expect you'll be interested:
"Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations.12 This is an advance since the TAR's conclusion that "most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations". Discernible human influences now extend to other aspects of climate, including ocean warming, continental-average temperatures, temperature extremes and wind patterns." (p.10)
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Pub_SPM-v2.pdf
So you differ with the U.S. National Academies of Science based on what - personal belief?
"A key question is how much of the observed warming is due to human activities and how much is due to natural variability in the climate. In the judgment of most climate scientists, Earth's warming in recent decades has been caused primarily by human activities that have increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere (see Figure 1). Greenhouse gases have increased significantly since the Industrial Revolution, mostly from the burning of fossil fuels for energy, industrial processes, and transportation. Greenhouse gases are at their highest levels in at least 400,000 years and continue to rise. (p.2)
http://dels.nas.edu/basc/Climate-HIGH.pdf
Great article.
I too remember that "In Search Of" episode hosted by spok and as a young child i was scared shitless.
Modern: "I firmly believe...."
Katie: "I really don't believe...."
The science is what it is, regardless of your "beliefs".
I'd suppose by those standards they'd argue that all the stuff i've put up here about the other reasons for global warming is part of this so called disinformation by one company, Exxonmobil (not to mention that in it, i've linked the stakeholders of Exxon & those behind the funding of the green movement as being the same people).
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977065384
Global warming: the chilling effect on free speech
The demonisation of 'climate change denial' is an affront to open and rational debate.
Brendan O'Neill
Whoever thought that serious commentators would want it made illegal to have a row about the weather? One Australian columnist has proposed outlawing 'climate change denial'. 'David Irving is under arrest in Austria for Holocaust denial', she wrote. 'Perhaps there is a case for making climate change denial an offence. It is a crime against humanity, after all.' (1) Others have suggested that climate change deniers should be put on trial in the future, Nuremberg-style, and made to account for their attempts to cover up the 'global warming…Holocaust' (2).
The message is clear: climate change deniers are scum. Their words are so wicked and dangerous that they must be silenced, or criminalised, or forced beyond the pale alongside those other crackpots who claim there was no Nazi Holocaust against the Jews. Perhaps climate change deniers should even be killed off, hanged like those evil men who were tried Nuremberg-style the first time around.
Whatever the truth about our warming planet, it is clear there is a tidal wave of intolerance in the debate about climate change which is eroding free speech and melting rational debate. There has been no decree from on high or piece of legislation outlawing climate change denial, and indeed there is no need to criminalise it, as the Australian columnist suggests. Because in recent months it has been turned into a taboo, chased out of polite society by a wink and a nod, letters of complaint, newspaper articles continually comparing climate change denial to Holocaust denial. An attitude of 'You can't say that!' now surrounds debates about climate change, which in many ways is more powerful and pernicious than an outright ban. I am not a scientist or an expert on climate change, but I know what I don't like - and this demonisation of certain words and ideas is an affront to freedom of speech and open, rational debate.
The loaded term itself – 'climate change denier' – is used to mark out certain people as immoral, untrustworthy. According to Richard D North, author most recently of Rich is Beautiful: A Very Personal Defence of Mass Affluence: 'It is deeply pejorative to call someone a "climate change denier"…it is a phrase designedly reminiscent of the idea of Holocaust denial – the label applied to those misguided or wicked people who believe, or claim to believe, the Nazis did not annihilate the Jews, and others, in very great numbers.' (3) People of various views and hues tend to get lumped together under the umbrella put-down 'climate change denier' – from those who argue the planet is getting hotter but we will be able to deal with it, to those who claim the planet is unlikely to get much hotter at all (4). On Google there are now over 80,000 search returns, and counting, for the phrase climate change denial.
Others take the tactic of openly labelling climate change deniers as cranks, possibly even people who might need their heads checked. In a speech last month, in which he said people 'should be scared' about global warming, UK environment secretary David Miliband said 'those who deny [climate change] are the flat-earthers of the twenty-first century' (5). Taking a similar tack, former US vice president-turned-green-warrior Al Gore recently declared: 'Fifteen per cent of the population believe the moon landing was actually staged in a movie lot in Arizona and somewhat fewer still believe the Earth is flat. I think they all get together with the global warming deniers on a Saturday night and party.' (6)
It is not only environmentalist activists and green-leaning writers who are seeking to silence climate change deniers/sceptics/critics/whatever you prefer. Last month the Royal Society – Britain's premier scientific academy founded in 1660, whose members have included some of the greatest scientists – wrote a letter to ExxonMobil demanding that the oil giant cut off its funding to groups that have 'misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence'. It was the first time the Royal Society had ever written to a company complaining about its activities. The letter had something of a hectoring, intolerant tone: 'At our meeting in July…you indicated that ExxonMobil would not be providing any further funding to these organisations. I would be grateful if you could let me know when ExxonMobil plans to carry out this pledge.' (7)
One could be forgiven for asking what business it is of the Royal Society to tell ExxonMobil whom it can and cannot support – just as we might balk if ExxonMobil tried to tell the Royal Society what to do. The Society claims it is merely defending a 'scientific consensus…the evidence' against ExxonMobil's duplicitous attempts to play down global warming for its own oily self-interest. Yet some scientists have attacked the idea that there can ever be untouchable cast-iron scientific facts, which should be immune from debate or protected from oil-moneyed think-tanks. An open letter to the Society – signed by Tim Ball, a professor of climatology at the University of Winnipeg, and others – argues that 'scientific inquiry is unique because it requires falsifiability': 'The beauty of science is that no issue is ever "settled", that no question is beyond being more fully understood, that no conclusion is immune to further experimentation. And yet for the first time in history, the Royal Society is shamelessly using the media to say emphatically: "case closed" on all issues related to climate change.'
Or as Charles Jones, an emeritus English professor at the University of Edinburgh, put it in a letter to a publication that recently lambasted climate change deniers, '[W]e are left with the feeling that [climate change] is a scientific model which is unfalsifiable and which has not been – and indeed cannot be – the subject of any theoretical counter-proposals whatsoever. As such, it must surely be unique in the history of science. Even a powerful model such as Relativity Theory has been the object of scientific debate and emendation.' (8)
For all the talk of simply preserving the facts against climate change deniers, there is increasingly a pernicious moralism and authoritarianism in the attempts to silence certain individuals and groups. This is clear from the use of the term 'climate change denier', which, as Charles Jones argued, is an attempt to assign any 'doubters' with 'the same moral repugnance one associates with Holocaust denial' (9). The Guardian columnist George Monbiot recently celebrated the 'recanting' of both the tabloid Sun and the business bible The Economist on the issue of global warming. ('Recant' – an interesting choice of word. According to my OED it means 'To withdraw, retract or renounce a statement, opinion or belief as erroneous, and esp. with formal or public confession of error in matters of religion.' Recanting is often what those accused before the Spanish Inquisition did to save their hides.) Pleased by the Sun and The Economist's turnaround, Monbiot wrote: 'Almost everywhere, climate change denial now looks as stupid and as unacceptable as Holocaust denial.' (10)
Earlier this year, when a correspondent for the American current affairs show 60 Minutes was asked why his various feature programmes on global warming did not include the views of global warming sceptics, he replied: 'If I do an interview with Elie Wiesel, am I required as a journalist to find a Holocaust denier?' Here, climate change deniers are explicitly painted as the bad guys. He also argued that, 'This isn't about politics...this is about sound science', and went so far as to claim that it would be problematic even to air the views of climate change sceptics: 'There comes a point in journalism where striving for balance becomes irresponsible.'
Some take the moral equivalence between climate change denial and Holocaust denial to its logical conclusion. They argue that climate change deniers are actually complicit in a future Holocaust – the global warming Holocaust – and thus will have to be brought to trial in the future. Green author and columnist Mark Lynas writes: 'I wonder what sentences judges might hand down at future international criminal tribunals on those who will be partially but directly responsible for millions of deaths from starvation, famine and disease in decades ahead. I put [their climate change denial] in a similar moral category to Holocaust denial – except that this time the Holocaust is yet to come, and we still have time to avoid it. Those who try to ensure we don't will one day have to answer for their crimes.' (11)
There is something deeply repugnant in marshalling the Holocaust in this way, both to berate climate change deniers and also as a convenient snapshot of what is to come if the planet continues to get warmer. First, the evidence is irrefutable that six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis; that is an historical event that has been thoroughly investigated, interrogated and proven beyond reasonable doubt. (Although as the American-Jewish academic and warrior against Holocaust denial, Deborah Lipstadt, has pointed out, even the Nazi Holocaust is not above debate and re-evalution; it is not a 'theology'.) There is no such proof or evidence (how could there be?) that global warming will cause a similar calamity. Second, it is, yet again, a cynical attempt to close down debate. The H-word is uttered as a kind of moral absolute that no one could possibly question. We are all against what happened during the first Holocaust, so we will be against the 'next Holocaust', too, right? And if not – if you do not take seriously the coming 'global warming Holocaust' – then you are clearly wicked, the equivalent of the David Irvings of this world, someone who should possibly even be locked up or certainly tried at a future date. At least laws against Holocaust denial (which, as a supporter of free speech, I am opposed to) chastise individuals for lying about a known and proven event; by contrast, the turning of climate change denial into a taboo raps people on the knuckles for questioning events, or alleged events, that have not even occurred yet. It is pre-emptive censorship. They are reprimanded not for lying, but for doubting, for questioning. If this approach was taken across the board, then spiked – motto: Question Everything – would be in for a rough ride.
Sometimes there is a knowing authoritarianism in green activism. The posters advertising George Monbiot's new book are targeted at various celebrities and businessmen judged to be living less than ethical green lives, with the words 'GEORGE IS WATCHING YOU' (12). It comes straight out of Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four. Some institutions employ Orwellian doublespeak when they use the word 'facts'. They are not talking about submitting theories or hypotheses or evidence for public debate and possibly public approval – they are talking about using 'facts' precisely to stifle public debate and change the way people think and behave.
So in a report on global warming titled Warm Words: How Are We Telling the Climate Story and Can We Tell it Better?, the British think-tank the Institute for Public Policy Research argued that 'the task of climate change agencies is not to persuade by rational argument but in effect to develop and nurture a new "common sense"…. [We] need to work in a more shrewd and contemporary way, using subtle techniques of engagement…. The "facts" need to be treated as being so taken-for-granted that they need not be spoken.' The IPPR proposes treating us not as free-thinking citizens who should be engaged, but as consumers who should be sold these 'unspoken facts': 'Ultimately, positive climate behaviours need to be approached in the same way as marketeers approach acts of buying and consuming…. It amounts to treating climate-friendly activity as a brand that can be sold. This is, we believe, the route to mass behaviour changes.' (13)
Nurturing a new common sense? Changing mass behaviour? Behind the talk of facts and figures we can glimpse the reality: an authoritarian campaign that has no interest whatsoever in engaging us in debate but rather thinks up 'shrewd' ways to change the way we behave. From the description of facts as 'so taken-for-granted that they need not be spoken' to the lumping together of climate change deniers with Holocaust deniers – and even Holocaust practitioners – we can see a creeping clampdown on any genuine, open debate about climate change, science and society. This represents a dangerous denigration of free speech. When George W Bush said after 9/11 'You're either with us or against us', he was widely criticised. Yet greens, think-tanks, reputable institutions and government ministers are using precisely the same tactic, drawing a line between good and proper people who accept the facts about climate change and those moral lepers who do not; between those who submit to having their common sense nurtured by the powers-that-be and those who dare to doubt or debate.
If anything, the greens' black-and-white divide is worse than Bush's. At least his was based on some kind of values, allowing us the opportunity to say yes or no to them; the greens' divide is based on 'facts', which means that those who decide that they are 'against' rather than 'with' can be labelled liars, deniers or crackpots like moon-landing conspiracy theorists or anti-Semitic historians.
Effectively, campaigners and officials are using scientific facts – over which there is still disagreement – to shut down what ought to be a political debate about what humans need and want. This is the worst of it. Whatever side you take in the climate change clash of facts, this undermining of debate should be a cause of concern. In place of a human-centred discussion of priorities and solutions we have an unconvincing battle over the facts between two sides – between those in the majority who claim that their facts show the planet is getting a lot hotter and it will be a disaster, and those in the minority, the 'deniers', who say the planet is getting a little hotter and it won't be so bad. We could urgently do with a proper debate that prioritises real people's aspirations. If parts of the planet are likely to be flooded, then where can we build new cities and how can we transport the people affected by the floods to those cities? If natural disasters are going to become more frequent, then how can we urgently and efficiently provide poorer parts of the world with the kind of buildings and technology that will allow them to ride out such disasters, as millions do in America every year?
We need to elevate the human interest over the dead discussion of fatalistic facts – and challenge the 'You can't say that!' approach that is strangling debate and giving rise to a new authoritarianism.
I have studies too,
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
A review of the research literature concerning the environmental consequences of increased levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide leads to the conclusion that increases during the 20th Century have produced no deleterious effects upon global weather, climate, or temperature. Increased carbon dioxide has, however, markedly increased plant growth rates. Predictions of harmful climatic effects due to future increases in minor greenhouse gases like CO2 are in error and do not conform to current experimental knowledge.
The judges are still out on whether people have anything to do with the current global warming trend. Just becuase you have biten into the propaganda of people like Al Gore who goes around spewing things he knows are false does not mean we are inferior. A resonable discussion has always been allowed in America. Except now when some groups see an opportunity to change society in a way they have been unable too for decades.
This is not a study. It is spin, disguised as a literature review, written by "think tanks". There's nothing scientific about the conclusions they draw, and these "talking points" have been refuted. And you accuse realclimate.org of having an agenda (funny, you never said what that agenda might be).
Let's look at what the Oregon Institute for Science and Medicine really is:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine
Why am I not surprised?
Of course, we know what the George C. Marshall Institute is. Even Sen. John McCain is quoted as saying, " "General Marshall was a great American. I think he might be very embarrassed to know that his name was being used in this disgraceful fashion."
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/05/some_like_it_hot.html
Most important phrase - especially, "I am not a scientist or an expert on climate change...." Yet he would have you believe that what he would say about climate change would be as valuable as what the scientists/climate change experts say - that, I suppose, is "rational debate".
BTW. The experts listed for the Oregon Institute for Science and Medicine include no climate experts, either.
Modern (from your article): "...the Royal Society – Britain's premier scientific academy founded in 1660, whose members have included some of the greatest scientists – wrote a letter to ExxonMobil demanding that the oil giant cut off its funding to groups that have 'misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence'. It was the first time the Royal Society had ever written to a company complaining about its activities."
That ought to tell you something!!! You know, I don't know about criminalizing climate deniers, but I keep reading how corporations, like Exxon, who have actively distorted the science with the documented intent to confuse the scientific issue in the public mind, may very well be held liable.
Does this guy practice whining, or does it just come natural. The point in the "debate" is that if you lie, if you distort, if you misrepresent, you're going to be called on it, and hopefully, held accountable. This guy should actually study the science, admitting, as he does, that's he's no expert.
You're just wrong. I gave you the positions of the IPCC and our own NAS. Besides those two scientific organizations, the following scientific associations have stated that human activities are responsible for climate change:
The National Academies of Science from each of the other G8 countries, U.S. National Research Council, American Meteorological Society, American Geophysical Union, American Institute of Physics, American Astronomical Society, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Stratigraphy Commission of the Geological Society of London, The Royal Society, Geological Society of America, American Chemical Society.
You may not like it, and it may not agree with your political ideology, but those are the facts. Deal with it.
BTW, what freedom do you "believe" you are being asked to give up? The freedom to pollute? The freedom to harm others? Just what freedom are you trying to protect here?
However the proponents of global warming are never called as being on the take for "Big Grants". And their conclusions can't be called anything but the final word on the subject.
Patrick Michaels, a leading opponent to the global warming scaremongers, calls it the federal/science paradigm. He describes it this way: Tax $ = Grants = Positive Feedback Loop to Get more Grants.
Says Dr. Michaels, "What worker bee scientist is going to write a proposal saying that global warming is exaggerated and he doesn't need the money? Certainly no one wanting advancement in the agency! There is no alternative to this process when paradigms compete with each other for finite funding." The only ones who can openly oppose the party line of the day are those who don't need the grants or who have some other source of funding. There aren't many.
The American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) used to publish the journal Science. Since 2000, it has published roughly 75 commentaries which have supported the idea that global warming is a serious problem requiring massive solutions. Now, the AAAS acts as a massive lobbying operation pushing this agenda. Taxpayers have now provided $20 billion into the scientific community for global warming work.
There's more here http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4674
The bottom line is that everyone is making money and I think that the lion share of funds are going toward those that support global warming. So is there any wonder that there is a big push towards proof of global warming.
If we were to be honest about it there would be equal funding for both sides of the issue.
Steve can tell me of any grants from the government going towards some aspect against global warming?
I always love this arguement. Politicians accusing scientists of playing politics with science, or corporations accusing scientists of having a profit motive.
I'll bet on the scientists. Politicians and corporations have us in a helluva mess.
We've been through this before, you know. The tobacco industry had the same arguements against the scientists when they were hiding the facts that tobacco causes cancer, heart disease, and is addictive. You must be too young to remember.
Do you practice at being wrong, or does it just come naturally. The issue isn't between capitalism and socialism. It's between industrial capitalism and natural capitalism, the latter being healthier and more profitable. You should read (you do read, don't you?) "Natural Capitalism," Hawken, Lovins & Lovins, and/or "Cradle to Cradle," McDonough & Braungart. In any case, keep your strawmen to yourself.
Charles: "...young whipper snapper...can't possibly have a real thought...."
Your words, not mine.
Charles: "Just don't use the argument that someone is getting paid by big oil to write their paper."
Then you also are not to dismiss the positions of every major scientific organization in the world, because they do research with government grants. And if we both make those concessions, they you have to pay attention to the fact that serious scientists, their research, and their associations are warning that the climate is warming, and that humans are causing it. Try dealing with it instead of discounting it.
Troy: But how does the fact that scientists found signs of plant life under the ice in Greenland fit into that this is the warmest we have ever been?"
I don't think you'll read it, but here you go:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/werent-temperatures-warmer-during-the-medieval-warm-period-than-they-are-today/
Certainly. I go with the scientists on this, and they clearly state that there is 90% chance that warming is cause by human activity. That means there is a 10% chance it isn't. I can live with that.
The IPCC, the National Academies of Science from each of the the G8 countries, U.S. National Research Council, American Meteorological Society, American Geophysical Union, American Institute of Physics, American Astronomical Society, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Stratigraphy Commission of the Geological Society of London, The Royal Society, Geological Society of America, American Chemical Society.
You wrote on another thread that you favor technology development. You may be aware that the technology to deal with ghg emission already exists. I think I have already referenced Lovins' "Ending the Oil Endgame."
http://www.rmi.org/store/p15details11.php?x=1&pagePath=00000000
A brief article reprinted from The Economist:
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid151.php
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=49007
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid191.php
I'm told that I have my head in the sand because I question the issue. Well I can say the same about those that refuse to even discuss it because the issue is settled.
"If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking" Gen. George S. Patton Jr.
Secondly, downgrading man involvement and introduction of another; If the science behind this had been absolute & conclusive about mans involvement & there were no more room for debate, then how does the UN downgrade mans role one occasion and on another introduce another, namely the cow fart threat, which then said to be more threatening than previously mentioned Co2 from cars and planes. This again suggests that their results are inconclusive and is a further indicator of the projection models they have been using.
Thirdly, its not like there is a shortage of dissenting views by scientists & those who have pointed out that the IPCC reports have been anything but objective and have removed all trace of skeptic claims on the matter.
Fourth, the suggestion that Exxon based funding is responsible for the creation of all/most opposing views on the matter is ridiculous and only serves as propaganda. I have shown in my article (link provided in my previous comment) that Exxon & the green movement both have common financial backers as interests, namely the rockefellers.
Funding hypocrisy; Finally I have also shown that despite suggestions that Exxon is funding against "man made global warming", what is most often ignored and not well publicized is the funding of the green movement. Ted turner, the founder of the United nations foundations and an avid supporter of man made global warming donated over $1bn to the cause & these were used to by the IPCC. The Rockefeller brothers fund is regular big "pseudo" green funders too. Among others, they are known to fund Greenpeace and the United Nations foundations. And there is no secret about their stance on global warming either incase your questioning objectivity either. Oh and I forgot to mention, they also funded eugenics too. Funding hypocrites, this is the height of it.
Research will most assuredly go on, but in the words of John Brown, Chairman of British Petroleum, "There is now an effective consensus among the world's leading scientists and serious and well informed people outside the scientific community that there is a discernible human influence on the climate, and a link between the concentration of carbon dioxide and the increase in temperature. We must now focus on what can and what should be done, not because we can be certain climate change is happening, but because the possibility can't be ignored."
You cannot argue that any action to dramatically reduce ghg emissions should wait for further research. Even from purely an economic perspective, if climate science does nothing else, it focuses attention on the substantial wastes in the industrial economy. Not only SHOULD we do things better, it doesn't make economic sense not to.
We are actually on the same page here, but it is our industrial system that is manipulating nature. Climate change is (one of) the bites in the ass.
From Hawken, "The Ecology of Commerce":
Industry and mainstream economists argue that we don't know enough about potential dangers ahead to warrant wholesale changes to our economic system. Best leave things as they are until we do more research is the generic reply from the executive suite. It is a fair argument, whose logic is impeccable. But as is true of the economy, the values that inform it are inverted. What is best to leave alone the wholesale assault on nature and living systems. More research is definitely needed, more study on how industries and corporations can conduct themselves so that they do not harm and can reconstruct what has been lost. When visitors gasp at the beauty of their cut stones, Italian quarry workers are known to say: "God never had a bad day." It is not nature that is the experiment, it is our economic system. Restoration is the conservative, ethical, and economic ethic; laissez-faire capitalism is what is out of control, and it is having a lot of bad days." (The ecology of commerce, pp. 214-5.)
Charles, please read Natural Capitalism or parts of it. It make more sense that either strict environmentalism or industrial capitalism, and goes a long way toward ending the tensions between the two.
http://www.natcap.org/sitepages/pid20.php
1. 90% probability. Your "established facts" - which are what? ...and documented where?
2. Total industrial agriculture - not just (but inclusive of) car farts - is of concern, along with transportation and coal fired power plants. All of it!
3. IPCC findings are supported overwhemingly by most scientists and their professional organizations. There are some "skeptics".
4. Calling something propaganda is opinion. The connections between Exxon, think tanks, and "skeptical" scientists is documented (even if attempts are sometimes made to hide them).
You've aknowledged being a conspiracy theorist. Fine.
"The connections between Exxon, think tanks, and "skeptical" scientists is documented".
I'm glad that the not so foolish havent made too much of this. Like i said, for one it is a pathetic attempt by some to dismiss away all opposing views/reports on the matter nor can it account for all of them. Moreover, the environmental activists pretty much hit their own feet with this one when it turns out the exxon they point the finger at is owned by the same guys putting money into the green movements itself. And to top it all, turns out that Jay rockefeller(john IV) shouts the loudest with this story as if the word "rockefeller" is to be disassociated from the company(Exxon) itself.
"You've aknowledged being a conspiracy theorist"
I dont exactly remember putting in those terms, but yes in responding to what you said of me i acknowledged an element of truth in it. And when scholars like Dr dennis cuddy, Dr david ray, professor edward griffin and others dont mind being called "conspiracy theorists", i dont either, particularly when it has to do with conspiracies that are well founded and especially when the conspirators are so open about it.
"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - From Rockefeller's "Memoirs", (p.405).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rockefeller#Quotations
As Dr david ray & edward griffin have both pointed out, the problem with the words "conspiracy theory" are not the words itself but the misunderstanding of these words itself and its immediate & automatic association of it with something untrue. What actually deserves a closer examination is the attention to & a better understanding of the words and the soundness of the facts that lie there in.
For others who've commented here earlier on, ive added a lot of material on global warming in the following article(link below) if anyone wishes to have a look
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977065384
If you know anything about science at all, you know that there is very rarely anything "conclusive" in the sense that you use it. 90% probability is "compelling", and I doubt that even you would really be willing to bet against 9:1 odds.