I have been doing some reading on La Raza and some of the other groups that are advocating totally open and uncontrolled borders for the United States. First off, I notice they don't advocate that Mexico observe the same stricture. on immigration for their southern border.
Several things bothered me in what I read. It bothered me that they label anyone who believes any country has the right to control their own borders as being purely a matter of racism. It has absolutely nothing to do with laws, drug smuggling and other criminal activity, or with national security now that we have half the world wanting to blow our butts away.
Another thing that bothers me is the idea of the meaning of the term "La Raza" it translates as "the race". Many of these people believe they are the blood descendants of a race that once lived in our southwest and they have the *right* to take these lands over as Latino only lands. They go on and on about this. A drawing I got at one of the La Raza websites pretty much says it all for me. Take a look at it.
I suggest that anyone with an interest in this issue type in La Raza and follow where the links lead you. Some of the pages where you can ask for a translation are the most interesting. We who advocate border security and orderly immigration are portrayed there as hate mongers, xenophobes, and racists. Those violating our borders by the millions are all pure, hard-working, and the salt of the earth people just trying to make it in a tough world. There is no middle ground allowed for national security or anything else. They don't ask, but demand totally open borders and uncontrolled immigration. That's bovine guano to my way of thinking.
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What does the term "La Raza" mean?
The term "La Raza" has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as "the people," or, according to some scholars, "the Hispanic people of the New World." The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world's races, cultures, and religions. Some people have mistranslated "La Raza" to mean "The Race," implying that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, "La Raza Cósmica," meaning the "cosmic people," was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny.
There is so much information on this website that website that disputes your silly and xenophobic mission -- but I'm sure you never read it, because you weren't really doing research on "La Raza" at all, were you?
http://www.nclr.org/content/faqs/detail/39736/
By the way, for the record, I was making a comment for discussion. I am not on a mission. I do, however, feel the map speaks for itself. Would you care to comment on that map?
And thank you for so beautifully proving my point that if anyone questions anything about this group or its stated mission someone will yell either racism or xenophobia. How dare we question?
By the way, when I left here, your article was rated a 10. So don't blame me for that.
Uh...points? I don't even look at them and wouldn't know what a particular article had, nor would I care. I don't post to get points. I post to foster a discussion, to ask questions, or to make a point. If yo wish to rate it a 1 please feel free. It won't affect me one way or the other, and if it would make you feel good, by all means do it.
I admit freely I find this whole passive invasion thing disturbing. I first became aware of it during the first big march for the nonexistent "rights" of illegals. They were interviewing a guy who was saying that California, New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona (I think I have that right) belong to Mexico and that what is happening with the massive illegal tidal wave is a passive attempt to take it back. He claims that he legally has a right to be here without the American government's permission and that they are going to take over and make it a Spanish-speaking, Latino only enclave.
Obviously any attempt to turn a quarter of my country into a third-world country is of concern to me.
When someone is wickedly defensive, on the attack and WON'T listen to ANY other point of view .... they are guilty and wrong and they know it. They usually wind up making a very good case for the opposite side .. AND WE ALL SEE IT!
Good article Carolyn G.
Their name says it all.
I guess someone needs to remind me why it's a good thing to have masses of illiterate, unskilled, and uneducated peasants in place of today's thriving cities and towns. If the system in Mexico and other Central and South American countries is so great, why are their people fleeing here in masses? My biggest question is why it's out responsibility in the first place? What ever happened to national sovereignty?
For some strange reason it doesn't make any sense to me why the dumbing down of America is good for us either. I guess if everyone didn't have any common sense any longer it would be easier for the Elected derelicts to run this country as they see fit. Ten to win
Big business benefits from having masses of ignorant and uneducated people.
They are much more easily led and manipulated than are those who are aware, who think for themselves, or who don't just eat what they are fed. The same is true of politicians.
The only people who don't benefit are the shrinking middle class and our own lower class who as a result of this movement lose their opportunity to climb out of poverty.
BTW Bob, thanks for the reconquista word. I was trying to remember it last night and gave up because it was late and I was being lazy.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why this whole La Raza support of taking over a quarter of our country is a good idea and why cheap illegal labor through mass illegal immigration is helping us in some way.
I AGREE with you. Everyone in this forum should go to the website of La Raza, and examine it. Two things that stood out to me when I read it were:
1. The enormous amount of money La Raza is receiving from the biggest giants of Corporate America (partial list at end of this message). It is
stated that La Raza is being funded by these BIGS with "multi-year, multimillion $$$
committments" in their "Institutional Corporate Partners" program.
if Ralph Nader took a fraction of this money for his campaign (instead of refusing Corporate contributions (legal bribery), he might have won both times.
2. La Raza's mission statement reads "The largest Latino civil rights and advocacy organization in the US, NCLRworks to improve opportunities for Hispanic Americans. Problem is : when you look through the list of :Current Issues & Legislation, it appears overwhemingly to be talking about illegal immigrants.
That conflicts with the mission statement which talks about Hispanic AMERICANS.
PARTIAL list of funding Corporate Partners:
Allstate Corp. Catholic Healthcare West
American Airlines Chevron
American Express Ford Motor Co.
Astra Zenaca General Motors
AT & T MBNA Corp.
Bank of America Pepsico Foundation
Bridgestone Firestone State Farm Insurance
Caterpillar Foundation UPS
CitiBank Univision
Coca-Cola Wal-Mart
http://www.aztlan.net/quest_for_aztlan.htm
I wonder if they had 1000 pound bombs landing on there heads if they would still think of themselves as the people who have right to that land? I wonder how long and how much they would fight before they started to build a fences to keep us Pissed Off Americans out of there Country. This whole issue is like a powder keg setting in a steel factory. Sparks are flying everywhere and all it takes is one spark to light it. They think America is a bunch of good old boys running around in there pickups with shotguns, they better re-think that.
While I was at the NCLR website, I tried to find where it said they were "advocating totally open and uncontrolled borders for the United States." Couldn't find it.
I tried to find where "they label anyone who believes any country has the right to control their own borders as being purely a matter of racism." Couldn't find anything like that, either.
And then I tried to find a copy of that map, or anything like it. I checked all over the NCLR website, but I couldn't find it.
I did find a number of comments on the NCLR website that are in fairly direct opposition to what this article is saying about them.
"NCLR has never supported, and does not support, separatist organizations."
"NCLR has never supported and does not endorse the notion of a 'Reconquista' or "Aztlán," and has never used, and unequivocally rejects, the motto 'Por La Raza todo, Fuera de La Raza nada.'"
"NCLR has not made and does not make any such claim [that any current American territory rightly belongs to Mexico]."
"NCLR has repeatedly recognized the right of the United States, as a sovereign nation, to control its borders."
and finally this one
"Recently the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) became aware of a website and other information that is being circulated on the Internet by La Voz de Aztlan. The phrases the site frequently uses, "La Raza de Aztlan" or "La Raza," are generic terms that many use to refer to Mexican American people in this country. NCLR has no connection whatsoever to the website or its sponsoring group."
which made me wonder if there's some confusion here (and elsewhere) between the National Council of La Raza and some of these other groups who use the words "la raza" in their name?
I don't care how you try to spin this B.S. Wil, Pack your bags... you and the rest of the illegal invaders that you align yourself with are going to go back to whence you belong. Your only salvation at this point is to go to the INS/ICE Palace and sigh up to be Citizens of this country. Your choice.
There is no "right" to illegal immigration. I fully prescribe to the idea that our current immigration system is broken and needs a dramatic overhaul. That doesn't give anyone the right to sneak over the border or to hire illegals. It's really a simple law and order issue. Fix the laws that are broken, enforce the laws we already have, close the border as best we can, and dry up the jobs. Then begin allowing people to enter legally that we as a nation decide we need/want here. It's not up to them to self-select without going through the vetting process.
I woke up to my American Flag stuffed down the Downspout in my Gutters. You think maybe I should go down the street and thank them for that? Looks like its time for NVG Night Vision Goggles and a High Powered Pellet Gun.
"I'm confused."
You certainly are!!
and we'll just sit back and watch while they, old as they are, beat the tar out of you, OK ? No, don't sweat, LBJ, I'll step in and clue them in that you have an "illness" - you think you're the self-appointed judge of everyone who posts in these columns.
As most of our mothers have often said, "If you don't have something nice to say,
keep your mouth shut". By the way, especially when your country is under attack,
INTERnationalism is an illness.
Just checking. :)
Partido Nacional La Raza Unida (PNLRU) supports a revolutionary alternative that will change current power structures, realize economic democracy and foster spiritual and cultural growth. Re-education of Raza, control of our communities and a commitment to our families are essential to our self-determination
This is why The National Council for Learning Resources (NCLR) is your voice in the American Association of Community Colleges. This is the only official representation of libraries and learning resources in the AACC organization "they never actually said any of the things attributed to them in this article? "
Why would these people want to be affiliated with a racist organization like La Raza?
Are you affiliated with La Raza?
Are you affiliated with La Raza?
Which "La Raza" are you talking about? The National Council of La Raza, the Partido Nacional La Raza Unida, or some other group that uses the words "la raza" in their name? Actually, I'm not a member of any group with the words "la raza" in the name. But I am a member of groups that have the words "national" and/or "council" in their names. Does that count? :)
Do you think that a Nation should be held responcible for its own policing of its Government and its people? Do you think its Ok to have 5 children if the first one is dying of hunger? Do you think its ok for people to break the laws of a nation that didn't ask them to come here in the first place and then try to turn it into the Soveriegn Nation they came from? Im guessing your trying to turn Roberts outlook of this nation as a John Wayne fanticy.
I posted on another article that I have the Honor of knowing two WW2 Veterans one of them being an Army Artilary Officer in Pattons European Campaign and the other a Marine that was in the battle for Iwo Jima. When I hear these two men talk of the sacrifice them and there Fellow Soldiers gave to keep Free the America some of us hold dear it sickens them to see what its turning into. There comments are we are allowing people the Freedoms that the blood of our American soldiers back to the Revolutionary war that are not willing to fight for there Freedoms in there own countries. But they will enter our country Uninvited and Illegaly and try to force there Flags and Cultural Practices on us? Doesn't that seem a little nervy to you?
I think that the biggest mistake many Americans make is assuming that these people who sneak up here illegally want any part of this country aside from the money. They want to establish little pockets of whatever country they are from complete with the language, and everything. We're supposed to foot the bill to teach their kids in Spanish so that the kids don't have to learn English as well.
I'm sorry, but it would be just as easy for someone to smuggle a suitcase nuke across that wide-open southern border of ours as it is to smuggle drugs and people across it. Most of the world hates our guts. Why on earth does anyone expect that at some point someone won't try it? Yet far too many Americans still have this noble savage idealism toward illegals in this country as if the laws don't matter.
In a way I guess I can see why. If our own government doesn't consider it important to enforce our laws, then why should the average citizen be expected to feel otherwise?
I hear you but until Im pushing up daisys (Dead) I will try to fight the good fight. Dont give in Carolyn.
That's right, Bruce. For hundreds of years, American soldiers have fought for freedom. And those freedoms can be found in the Constitution of the United States. And while I can understand that it's galling, the thing is, while the Constitution doesn't grant people the right to enter or stay in the US illegally, it does offer them certain rights and protections once they're here.
Another thing I'm curious about, because I've noticed you've mentioned it several times now, is what you're saying about people who aren't willing to stay and fight for their rights in their own countries. Does that mean you're generally opposed to migration in general, or just illegal immigration?
What about refugees? Do you think they should stay in their own countries and fight and die instead of asking for help in other countries?
And what about the people who left their home countries to settle in the American colonies? Do you think they should've stayed and fought for their freedoms in their own countries instead of leaving and eventually starting a new one?
One thing I've been thinking about is that even if every person in the US illegally was rounded up and deported, and if some way could be found to stop 100% of all illegal immigration, 50 years from now the US is going to be a very different country (culturally, racially, ethnically, or however you want to put it). The same goes for many other countries in the world.
When I read some of the comments here at Gather, it seems like maybe a lot of the fear, anger and resentment has as much to do with these changes as it does with the specific issues or situations being discussed.
My father came here from Poland. Legally. I favor legal migration. What I don't want is to see this country turn into a third world country like those I've visited. In areas where large numbers of illegals congregate it is already beginning to look like that.
What a lot of us resent is the whole "entitlement" attitude of a lot of illegals. They are entitled to things even American citizens don't get automatically. They don't want to be part of this country. And no. That doesn't mean giving up their own culture and customs, but it does mean learning the language, following the laws, and getting rid of the idea that they are somehow "owed" something.
You're right. In 50 years the country will look different. Heck, I can remember this country 50 years ago, and the difference is stark and telling. 50 more years will be startling. But that doesn't have to mean we sink into poverty, lose our middle class, and become a nation of petty, squabbling, independent states with different currencies, different languages, etc. One of the cool things about this country is we came here from all over and we became America.
How do you fight opression? Do you run from it or fight it. I believe in my heart that if countries of oppressed people would stand up and fight these oppressors they would have allies and probably ones they wouldn't think would be. Your statement about people coming here from the begining of when people occupied America doesn't hold water Wil. The people of England came here to colonize this land and when they were hit with unrealistic taxes from England they decided to break (Free) from England. Now if Mexico is looking to break free of Mexico then they better understand that we wont just lay down and let them have it. Unless our Political Reps let them have it.
Of course a lot of the fear and anger has something to do with the imposition of foreign culture upon our own. That's a major part of it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's as important as the economic part of it, jobs, wages, working
conditions, benefits, remittances, tax drain, natural resource consumption, over-population/overcrowding. These are the major issue.
The cultural impact is also however, a serious issue in it's own right, and is a
very definite part of the anger, fear and resentment. You bet. We've been trying to
get this point across. We agree on something finally.
of a nation's culture. It is untouchable - never to be tampered with.
Notice how country's names are commonly synonomous with their language.
England/English, Germany/German, Greece/Greek. Japan/Japanese, etc.
Now would everyone please go out and take a college course in Geography ?
Nation - a historically developed community of people, united by common descent, culture or language, inhabiting a particular territory.
Your posts, particularly this last one are kind of like modern movies.
Long on form, short on content. If you want us to conclude that you're smart, (as
is obvious), send us copies of your college degrees and/or IQ test results, OK ?
In the meantime, we're trying to communicate important things here, not put our
intellects on display as if they were paintings in a gallery.
OK. We think you're smart. Now please be smart enough to communicate so as
to communicate, rather than attempt to impress.
I don't, at all, mind my ideas being challenged, and you know it. What I, and everyone else here minds is your cheap, street level style of personal attack, improper to this forum. Get it ?
As for my "desire for RobertLand" (AKA preservation of American culture while defending rights and welfare of the American working class), one might wonder why
this desire isn't yours too. Don't you think our working class should be defended from the likes of the Corporates (US & Mexico et al) and the Bush administration or
are you too embroiled in Old Left yak about the US as an imperialist country (you
think we don't know that ?) I could write as much as anyone about American
imperialism. The important point of this thread (even more than how eloquent you speak) is that our country is UNDER attack from Corporate Mexico, Ireland, Russia,
China, and all the other copycats, and the harms present and future we're incurring. Can you recite them for us (in everyday American English) ?
Substance not style, OK ?
Now for some substance.
Shame on those yuppies in LA RAZA's "Corporate Supporter"team for pouring
all those millions into La Raza's racist coffers. A mighty big investment in a hit organization only to have the whole thing backfire, and produce negative results.
La Raza's latest ploy attack ("Wave of Hate") on America's working class
defenders, has produced only a greater rage among the American people, and more support for border security (Senate 89-4 vote) and workplace enforcement
leading to mass deportation by attrition.
La Raza didn't learn their lesson from the badly backfired protest rallies.
Maybe they just don't care about results, as long as Exxon, Wal-Mart, Bank of
America, AT & T and all the other giants keep paying them off.
I agree that there are differences between legal and illegal immigration. I also agree that the system is broken. Who's saying people have the right to "just come here and take over"?
"What I don't want is to see this country turn into a third world country like those I've visited. In areas where large numbers of illegals congregate it is already beginning to look like that."
This is a tough one to respond to because I'm not sure what you mean. Are these people you think or assume to be illegal or do you know for sure? When you say "third word country" do you mean a slum, or not many white people, or what?
"They are entitled to things even American citizens don't get automatically."
What things are they entitled to?
"They don't want to be part of this country. And no. That doesn't mean giving up their own culture and customs, but it does mean learning the language, following the laws, and getting rid of the idea that they are somehow "owed" something."
Are we talking about legal or illegal immigrants now? Or both? Lots of immigrants do learn to speak English and obey the laws and pay taxes and contribute to the community and all the rest of it. I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture because any time you take a group of people there's always going to be a range of behaviors, attitudes, etc.
Obviously, in the case of illegals, the one thing they all have in common is that they're breaking the law by being in the US illegally, but other than that, isn't anything else we might say about "them" likely to be unfair, and often based on assumptions and stereotypes?
"...that doesn't have to mean we sink into poverty, lose our middle class, and become a nation of petty, squabbling, independent states with different currencies, different languages, etc."
And you think all those things might happen, and if they do, it'll be because of illegal immigration?
I'm not trying to be overly-argumentative or nit-picky or anything like that, Carolyn. It just seems that a lot of what's said in these discussions is based on misinformation and/or misunderstandings. I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from.
I'm not following you, Bruce. Which oppressed people from which countries? Are you talking about people who legally immigrate from one country to another because they felt oppressed or because they wanted a chance at a better life or whatever? Are you talking about illegal immigrants, or refugees, or what?
"Your statement about people coming here from the begining of when people occupied America doesn't hold water Wil. The people of England came here to colonize this land and when they were hit with unrealistic taxes from England they decided to break (Free) from England."
I'm sure people came to the American colonies for a lot of different reasons, Bruce. But the Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower and established the colony at Plymouth, and the Puritans who started the Massachusetts Bay Colony fled England, didn't they? And wasn't the colony of Rhode Island founded by people who were fleeing religious persecution in the Massachusetts Bay Colony? None of them stayed to fight against their oppressors, did they? I'm not saying what they did was wrong, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit in with your notion that oppressed people should stay and fight.
Even in the case of the American Revolution, while its true that the American colonists fought off their oppressors, you could say they did it by abandoning their fellow Englishmen and going it alone.
"Now if Mexico is looking to break free of Mexico then they better understand that we wont just lay down and let them have it."
Sorry, I don't know what this means. We won't let them have what?
http://www.illegalaliens.us/IDcards.htm
When I went to Home Depot today I only saw one lonely little trabajando instead of the general 350 to 500 that hang out there. Is today some kind of national holiday for the illegals or are they starting to self deport?
I'm going to drive the Freeway that leads to Mexico tomorrow and check-out whats happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVJWZuBYDN8
Also Wil, I can "see" that you must not know very much about the History of the United States.
Did your writing instructor teach you the meaning of the word....Demagoguery?
One good bit in the clip was when Frank Morris said "When you really want to fan the emotions and you really want to eliminate debate, you throw negative labels."
I think that's very true. And you can do it by just as easy by calling people racists, bigots or xenophobes as you can by calling them "La Raza rascals", "anchor babies" or "La Razza treasonists citizens."
I think my knowledge of United States history and the English language (including big words like demagoguery) is in pretty good shape, Bob. But I'm always willing to learn, so if you think you've got something to teach, feel free to share. :)
When I commented about towns turning into third world villages, I was thinking in particular about two towns in my own state. The Eastern half of the state is either desert or agriculture. There are huge numbers of illegals there. Who is and is not there legally isn't exactly a secret among the residents. I worked for a small college midway between these two towns and traveled there regularly. I observed a lot of things. First off, if you didn't speak at least a modicum of Spanish you couldn't get service in most stores other than the small ones attached to the service stations just off the interstate.
I made the mistake of taking my teenaged daughter with me one day and we stopped for gas and water. I pretended not to understand what those loitering around the place were saying. Had I not been a woman and alone I would have smacked the snot out of those men.
There were tiendas with the metal roll up gates just like the ones I saw in villages in Venezuela. Some sections of the town looked exactly like those I saw there.
Now I grant you these were more like villages outside of Caracas. But when I was in Caracas I also saw the barrios. I don't ever ever want to see that sort of thing here. Obviously being white and American it wasn't safe for me to go up into that area, but we met friends nearby; close enough to observe and be horrified.
When you breed a social system that has such extremes of poverty and then set out to systematically destroy the middle class, that's what you get. You can see it almost anywhere in the world. I've traveled enough to see the differences in the way people live. I am seeing it here largely in areas where people congregate whose legality here is questionable, particularly in or near large commercial agricultural areas. It is clear even where I live. Everyone in my area knows where the illegal day workers congregate and are picked up for their work. We avoid the area. The police know it too, but they too don't go there.
My point about all of this is that people need to abide by the rules. I'm not advocating cracking down on illegals here other than to deny them any and all social services. I advocate a total and punitive crackdown on the employers for two reasons. First it will dry up the jobs and many illegals will self-deport. Second, it will put enormous pressure on the Federal government (by the guys who can't hire the illegals any more) to fix the system.
I'm convinced that any terrorist with half a brain could walk across the border now. We know that the Mexican government provides as much assistance as humanly possible to illegals. Chavez in Venezuela is rumored to be teaching middle eastern guys how to act like Latinos. I am still trying to track down the source of this story to see if it has any validity.
The bottom line is that we're a sovereign nation and we have the right and obligation to control our own borders. Groups like La Raza and many of the others are doing themselves no favors by running crowds of people in the streets demanding their "rights", waving Mexican flags, and yelling in Spanish. If for no other reason than PR it's really stupid and counterproductive.
I am sincere in my opposition to amnesty. We tried that route 20 years ago and it failed completely. There is nothing whatever that I've seen that says it will be any more successful today. We need other solutions and the illegals need to go home.
I'm not following you, Bruce. Which oppressed people from which countries? Are you talking about people who legally immigrate from one country to another because they felt oppressed or because they wanted a chance at a better life or whatever? Are you talking about illegal immigrants, or refugees, or what?
Here we are again playing the apples and oranges game Wil. I stated that If The Illegal Imigrants stayed and fought there Oppressors they would find that they have allies that would help them. Problem is we will never find out because its easier to come to America and Rape our system. Dont twist Legal and Illegal Wil. Point is about our colonists, Wil, in the end they stood up to the most powerful nation at that time and fought for there freedoms and built a country. If the People of Mexico would do the same in there own Country they might find its a Country worth fighting for. Freedom is not something that is just given Wil. Its a constant battle to keep it and a system of checks and balances so things like the Rich Few in the country have everything and the Poor most of the country have nothing. Look at history again Wil, it happened in France and when the Poor Starving people had enough they cut off the heads of the Monarchy and started over. I think the Mexican People could learn a lesson from the French.
You think getting illegal aliens out of the US will mean everybody's going to start speaking English? There are something like 40 million Hispanics in the country legally. How do you make them speak English if they don't want to?
The US has never been English-only, and never will be. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. English isn't the official language of the US. It doesn't have one. And if it ever does, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up with more than one. If so, it won't be the only country in the world that does. Ireland, Canada, and Wales all have two official languages. Scotland and Belgium each have three. Switzerland has four and Spain has five. Somehow they all seem to manage.
Cultures change. The demographic and cultural makeup of the US is changing, regardless of whether there are people in the country illegally or not.
Thanks for the update. If you look at the Hispanics that are here Legaly you will find that they have as much antimosity towards the Illegals as the average english speaking Joe here in the US. Why is that you ask?? Im sure you will. If you look at the Hispanics that have been here for generations they do speak english and are willing to Speak English. These Illegals are bringing a New Attitude towards even the Hispanics that have been here generations and they dont like the fact that these people who have broken there (Legal Hispanics) Laws as well as the rest of us Legal United States Citizens. English is our Language even if you dont think so Will.
Bob M.
Be careful how far you go with your finding facts mission. These people dont have the same respect for rights and playing by the laws as we do. I would like to give you an example. A neighbor of mines son saw two Hispanics fighting in front of his house and he called the police. They soon ended up on his front lawn and he went out to break them up and they ended up turning on him. My Friends son is a wirey little Shit and he ended up beating the crap out of the two guys and he dragged them back to the street off his lawn. The police showed up and arrested my neighbors son. He was fined and did a short amount of time in a Community Jail. My point is this, for some reason the Law that is supposed to be protecting us is looking the other way when it comes to Illegals. Just Food For Thought and I would hate to loose an advocate to the system.
Another thought? With the cars most of these people are driving (Esclades, Mercedes, BMW's) how is the finance companies going to collect on loans when these people drive there cars into Mexico and dont return? I sure wouldn't want to be a Repo man that had to work in Mexico. They would put you in Jail and throw away the Key.
There is no reason for someone to refuse to learn English if they are telling the truth about being here simply for a better life and all of that. It is annoying as hell to go into a store and have to ask for things in Spanish because the clerk refuses to learn English. Can I do it? Yes. Will I ever return there with my business? No.
Most of those I know who are here legally from any country believe in assimilation and make a huge effort to speak English. My neighbors here are from Mexico and they attend classes at the community center nearby. Their English is far from good, but they make an effort to speak it when they can. Sometimes they just can't think of a word and they will ask in Spanish. I am happy to tell them what they need when I can. Unfortunately my little electronic translator is in storage along with most of my other things. It would come in handy for that.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the next congress and over the next year. I'm seeing moves toward separating out bills and putting forth the border security measures first along with a few others such as the Dream program and stringent enforcement of the laws against hiring illegals. I fully expect a Supreme Court test of the interpretation of the 14th amendment. If it fails at that level, then I expect to see a constitutional amendment proposed to fix the interpretation. I also would not be at all surprised to see a bill making English the official language.
If the Democrats win a decent majority in 2008 you might see a guest worker program, but I am fairly certain that you won't see mass amnesty. I'm not sure that even the Democrats are going to go that much against what the vast majority of people here want.
Im laughing so hard I cant type. LOL You might be able to start a new thriving business and get as big as Bill Gates.
I don't know if it's accurate to assume that legals speak English and illegals don't. I'm sure that's true to some degree, but I also think it's a generational thing. Many immigrants grandchildren can't speak the language of the "home" country, and don't even necessarily think of the "home" country as anything but some foreign country that their grandparents talk about.
But that might not happen as much with Hispanic immigrants. For one thing, Mexico isn't as far away as Europe and Asia. And they're such a large minority that I think there's going to be less pressure to assimilate. And in a lot of places, they're not a minority. They've got their own media, they've got political lobby groups, they vote and they spend money. I don't think forced assimilation is going to work.
Thanks for the update. If you look at the Hispanics that are here Legaly you will find that they have as much antimosity towards the Illegals as the average english speaking Joe here in the US. Why is that you ask?? Im sure you will. If you look at the Hispanics that have been here for generations they do speak english and are willing to Speak English. These Illegals are bringing a New Attitude towards even the Hispanics that have been here generations and they dont like the fact that these people who have broken there (Legal Hispanics) Laws as well as the rest of us Legal United States Citizens. English is our Language even if you dont think so Will. "
Thanks for the info, Bruce. I didn't realize you spoke on behalf the Hispanic American citizens. Are you sure they're all against this whole amnesty thing? Because I was reading more of the info at that NCLR website, an organization that is made up of a lot of legal Hispanic Americans, and they seem to be in favor of amnesty. And I read a poll recently that said Hispanic Americans were split about 50/50 on the idea.
There may well be a "New Attitude", but don't be so sure that it's the illegals who've got it and that all the legal Hispanic Americans don't like it.
Statement of Principles
March, 2007
You Don't Speak for Me! American Hispanics, Loyal to Our Nation and Proud of Our Hispanic Heritage
As You Don't Speak for Me! approaches the first anniversary of its formation, and as the pro-illegal alien advocacy network prepares, once again, for demonstrations aimed at equating their agenda with the American Hispanic agenda, Retired Colonel Al Rodriguez, chairman of YDSFM, issued the following statement on behalf of the organization:
"Since the formation of YDSFM, nearly one year ago, our organization has provided an effective counterpoint to a coalition of pro-illegal alien advocacy groups that have purported to speak on behalf of Americans of Hispanic ancestry. We are proud that since YDSFM was founded we have received support and encouragement from thousands of American Hispanics - those who were born in this country and those who immigrated legally - and from Americans of all walks of life.
"We affirm our status as citizens of the United States and, in our civic lives, we are first and foremost Americans. We embrace the principles of our nation and the rule of law which are set forth in our constitution, and reject all attempts to divide this nation along ethnic, racial, or religious lines.
"Like all other Americans, we are also proud of ancestral heritages. In our private lives we cherish many of the customs and traditions that we and our ancestors brought to this country. Just as we reject efforts by the illegal alien advocacy network to use our common heritage to advance their own political agenda, so too do we reject attempts by the radical fringe that seeks to limit and enforce immigration in furtherance of their own distasteful views on racial identity. They do not speak for us and we do not speak for them.
"You Don't Speak for Me! supports an immigration policy that requires everyone to respect the laws of this nation; that protects the legitimate interests of the American people; that embraces newcomers of all backgrounds who obey our laws, contribute to the common good, and endeavor to become a part of the fabric of American society. We believe these views are shared by the vast majority of Americans of Hispanic heritage. Any organization or individual who does not espouse these core values does not speak for us.
For more information please contact Ira Mehlman (213) 700-0407.
These folks are valued Americans, not at all like "the race" La Raza. What is La Raza's mantra Wil?
http://dontspeakforme.org/ydsfm_print_ad.pdf
Here's "the race" La Raza and what they invision to happen in America:
http://www.mexicanlakes.com/la_raza_usa.htm
How do you think 85% of the American people are going to take this Wil? I know how the other 15% are...You're in the 15%, I'm in the 85%
Cozy with La Raza
NumbersUSA ^ | July 23, '07 | Staff
Posted on 07/25/2007 5:48:27 PM PDT by T.L.Sink
If a GOP candidate sought votes from a white group calling itself the "National Council of the Race," he'd rightly be shunned as a racist. But let the Democrats do the same and they're called "progressive." Hillary and Obama appeared before the National Council of La Raza ("The Race"), a radical Latino group. Obama pandered by saying he'd "walked the walk" for amnesty and would revive the sunken immigration bill that went down in flames in the Senate. "We will make this a priority and get it done," he said. Hillary buys into the idea that the bill's end was brought on by what La Raza calls a "wave of hate" and hired a top La Raza official, Raul Yzaguirre, as her financial co-chair. La Raza is not only the loudest proponent of illegal immigration in the U.S. It fosters ethnic separatism in schools. It runs Hugo Chavez-type handouts for indigents and refuses to renounce fringe groups like MEChA, whose own slogan is derived from from the rhetoric of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro: "Through the race, everything; outside the race, nothing." Today's La Raza is a $52 million not-for-profit group that that lives off congressional earmarks and shakes down big corporations like Wal Mart and Bank of America for financial support while at the same time making illegal immigration and ethnic separatism its leading agenda.
One of Hillary Clintons campaign managers is the ex-president of "LA RAZA"
Raul Yazguirre.
Thanks for the link, Bob. But is Daneen G. Peterson is spokesperson for the National Council of La Raza, or any other group with the words "la raza" in their name? I don't think so. One World Order. Shadow Government. SCAM (Socialists, Communists, Anarchists, and Marxists). Wow, that's impressive. I'm surprised she didn't mention the shapeshifting reptilians from Alpha Draconis.
"Wow, that's impressive. I'm surprised she didn't mention the shapeshifting reptilians from Alpha Draconis."
She did wil...she just didn't mention you by name!!
http://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/Home/Articles/Params/arcticlecategory/1730/menu/147/default.aspx
I also wanted to give you Janet Murquias:
Janet Murguia has served as the President and Chief Executive Officer of the National Council of La Raza (NCLR) since January 1, 2005. Murguía grew up in Kansas City, Kansas. She received three degrees from KU: a B.S. degree in journalism (1982), a B.A. degree in Spanish (1982), and a J.D. degree (1985) from the School of Law
La Raza is en La Taza!
arcticlecategory/1730/menu/147/default.aspx
I wouldn't want you to miss this part Wil.
At the end of the first paragraph, there's a reference. It turns out to reference another article by the same author. Convenient. I'm sure it helps to back up your own opinions by using your own opinions as a reference. So I start reading the referenced article and it has a quote that says:
"The National Council of La Raza the International Socialist Organization [Communists], the Southern California Human Rights Coalition [Includes illegal aliens] and the San Gabriel Valley Neighbors for Peace and Justice [that's Peace and Justice for illegal aliens, but not for you!] say that "there should be no borders and therefore no illegal immigrants!"(25)
All these organizations say that? I don't know about those other organizations, but I've reading the NCLR website a lot since Carolyn posted this article, and I haven't seen anything like that. So I check the referenced source, an article in the Desert Dispatch by Katherine Rosenberg.
The article is about a 2005 protest at the Home Depot in Victorville, California. A group called SaveOurState.org was there, and apparently so were members of NCLR, the International Socialist Organization and those other groups Peterson mentions. They were all there, apparently, as a sort of counter-protest. The Roserberg article attributes the "there should be no borders" quote to one member of NCLR, Freddy Villa. There's nothing about him being being any sort of official spokesperson for NCLR, let alone any of those other groups. But that's not what Daneen G. Peterson, PhD says, is it?
Another group was at that protest, by Ms. Peterson forgets to mention them. They were called National Vanguard, an white nationalist group that was an off-shoot of the National Alliance. Rosenberg quotes one of their members as well. His name was Mike Sullivan, the Unit Coordinator for the National Vanguard group in Las Vegas, so it looks like he was speaking for the group when he said, "We are a pro-white organization and we oppose changing demographics, we oppose open borders. We want a free, proud, white America."
SaveOurState.org said that they had no association with National Vanguard, and that SaveOurState.org wasn't racist and didn't share National Vanguard's white nationalist views. I'm sure that's true, and I'm sure they wouldn't like it if somebody deliberately misquoted the Rosenberg article to make it look like all the groups there protesting against Home Depot were there because they "want a free, proud, white America."
Spoken like a true member of La Raza!
Keep posting...your true identity is becoming evident.
http://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/Home/Articles/Params/
arcticlecategory/1730/menu/147/default.aspx
And, lets not forget this one:
Here's "the race" La Raza and what they invision to happen in America:
http://www.mexicanlakes.com/la_raza_usa.htm
Do you "see" all those yellow signs with black lettering being carried by the illegal invaders? Those are supplied by answer Wil, a communist group of thugs that would like nothing better then the demise of the U.S. I think even Ray Charles could "see" this for what it really is.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6506
Wow, how can you tell that the people carrying the yellow signs are in the country illegally? Are you psychic?
"Those are supplied by answer Wil, a communist group of thugs that would like nothing better then the demise of the U.S."
Oh no! The reds have come out from under the beds? LOL So you think communists shouldn't be allowed to exercise their First Amendment rights, either?
Bob, is there any chance that you might believe that anybody who doesn't believe exactly what you believe must be an enemy of the United States?
Vdare
August 3, 2007
In its latest assault on our sensibilities, the National Council of La Raza (i.e., "The Race") alleges that the U.S. is drowning in "a wave of hate" aimed at Hispanics.
According to Cecilia Munoz, La Raza's senior vice president of research, legislation and advocacy, if it weren't for this massive surge of American hatred, the recent Comprehensive Immigration Reform proposal giving amnesty to millions of illegal aliens would have sailed through Congress
Said Munoz, referring to the radio talk shows she views as the main—but not the only—outlet for "hate":
"That had an extraordinary impact in the Senate, and as a nation, I don't think we should be comfortable with the fact that the United States Senate responded to what was largely a wave of hate." [Hispanic Group Aims to Stop 'Wave of Hate'" By Steven Dinan, Washington Times, July 22, 2007]
(Munoz was speaking at the same conference where Rep. Lincoln Diaz Balart (R—Cuba) called for permanent Spanish-speaking enclaves in the U.S).
"Wave of hate"—that's a good one—catchy, just the way the MainStream media likes it.
Grudgingly, I confess to admiring—in a very limited way—the National Council of La Raza.
While I deplore the anti-American stand that the country's largest ethnic identity lobbyist takes, I am in awe of its ability to coin phrases and dupe the media (which considers La Raza the nation's pre-eminent Hispanic think tank) into believing that it walks the high road.
At the same time, because of its skill at the word game, La Raza has convinced the press, Congress, the Chamber of Commerce and religious groups of all denominations that we who favor less immigration are lower than pond scum.
Twenty years ago, the most common term to describe individuals illegally in the U.S. was "illegal immigrant". Although it appeared in print from time to time, the correct term, "illegal alien" was always a tough sell for us.
Then, out of nowhere, appeared "undocumented immigrant" appeared. That lasted a while but before long "undocumented worker" replaced it—much more persuasive from La Raza's view because it suggests that aliens work. That's not always true, of course, but it sure sounds good.
Soon thereafter, the "undocumented workers" had deeply rooted and unshakeable "family values."
And what are we? Among other things, we are "racists," "xenophobes," and "nativists".
Now that a growing respect for our position has emerged, we have been upgraded to "anti-immigration" or, the warmest and fuzziest of all the terms used to describe us "immigration restrictionists".
As it now stands, we, the "immigration restrictionists" who ride a "wave of hate" are pitted against the "undocumented workers" and their "family values."
As I said earlier, you can't help but admire how cleverly our opposition has outmaneuvered us.
Never underestimate La Raza's reach and power.
//
But, despite La Raza owning the politicians and the print media and having bottomless pockets to carry out its open borders agenda, it could not pull off amnesty.
That says tons about our position's merit and is an enormous comfort as we go forward in this endless battle. When our victory is considered in light of the La Raza frontal assault against us, it becomes all the more impressive.
La Raza is right about one thing. A "wave" is sweeping across America.
But hate isn't part of it. What's at play instead is frustration, disgust and anger.
We're frustrated at the federal government's refusal to enforce immigration legislation, disgusted at the Mexican government for condoning illegal immigration and angry at the likes of La Raza for its overtly subversive agenda.
La Raza has the money, the wide network of offices and the high level connections. But we are on the right side of the argument.
The American side.
And that's why we'll prevail next time…and the time after that…and the time after that, too.
By Stephen Dinan
July 22, 2007
MIAMI BEACH, Fla. — The nation's largest Hispanic advocacy group says it must come up with a strategy to combat "a wave of hate" its leaders say came from talk radio's efforts to sink the Senate's immigration bill.
"That had an extraordinary impact in the Senate, and as a nation, I don't think we should be comfortable with the fact that the United States Senate responded to what was largely a wave of hate," Cecilia Munoz, the National Council of La Raza's senior vice president for research, advocacy and legislation, told The Washington Times after meeting with NCLR affiliates to talk about a new strategy.
Stung by the collapse of the immigration bill in the Senate last month, NCLR leaders and members at the group's annual convention in Miami Beach, which began yesterday, say they will have to start a campaign to register and mobilize voters, to warn against crossing the line in the debate and to force lawmakers to take a clear stand on what they are willing to tolerate.
"I think we have to shine a light on it," Ms. Munoz said. "At the end of the day, we believe people need to take sides, that you can't stand on the sidelines, especially if part of what is motivating the actions of the United States Congress is not really about the public-policy debate, but is about their discomfort with Latinos."
NCLR's convention continues today with addresses by the two leading Democratic presidential candidates, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois.
With Hispanics already considered a key swing voting group, both Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama are trying to win those voters for themselves in the primaries and for Democrats in the general election.
Meanwhile, NCLR is trying to make sure more Hispanic voters are to be won over in 2008. The organization held a workshop to help legal permanent residents begin the citizenship-application process, and 200 immigrants were lined up before the door opened yesterday morning, organizers said.
Janet Murguia, NCLR's president and CEO, told attendees that with the failure of the immigration bill, they are going to "double our efforts on civic engagement." She encouraged the affiliates to make voter registration more a part of their services back in their own communities.
I wonder how many illegal aliens are going to sign-up to vote for Hillary and Obama.
Thanks for the info, Bruce. I didn't realize you spoke on behalf the Hispanic American citizens. Are you sure they're all against this whole amnesty thing? Because I was reading more of the info at that NCLR website, an organization that is made up of a lot of legal Hispanic Americans, and they seem to be in favor of amnesty. And I read a poll recently that said Hispanic Americans were split about 50/50 on the idea.
The legal 50 percent your talking about would they be the 3 million Ronald Regan gave Amnesty to and there offspring? When Freedom is given cheaply its held to a lower standard. Not only is Freedom heald to a lower standard but so is the plight that generations of Legal imigrants went through to become Legal Citizens of the United States. Why dont you tell us where your from? Are you ashamed of your place of Residence? I keep hearing people say your from Australia but you dont seem to want to answer. Is there a reason for that?
Don't be fooled! This guy Wil, (notice only one "l"), is probably a female named Wilma and a member of NCLR. Their tactics of hitting these 'blogs' to try and sway public opinion and garner support for this illegal invasion, is becoming more commonplace since the amnesty bill didn't fly. Alot of them try to portray themselves as people that are in a 'neutral' position, (like someone from Australia), who has no 'bias' in this discussion and after 'studying' the issue, has concluded that illegal immigration to the U.S. isn't really a problem, and should continue.
BTW, Wil(ma) you could have chosen a better photo to use as you icon - This guy looks like he just stepped out of a cave!
" I didn't realize you spoke on behalf the Hispanic American citizens. Are you sure they're all against this whole amnesty thing?"
What? You thought I was the only one?!
Those of you who think that this is merely an issue of "race", "xenephobia", "humanity", or whatever else may be concocted to justify the illegal invasion of this country, I suggest you read the REAL reasons that this government has been ALLOWING this situation to continue for so long. All of you pro-illegal, humanitarian, Latino dumbasses are just pawns in a much larger plan, in which you are all being played as fools who think that the most important accomlishment is to help those poor downtrodden, spanish speaking, brown skinned bretheren come to the U.S. so they can have what you have. And THEY WILL!
The problem is... YOU NO LONGER WILL! And you can take THAT to the bank!
Click Here: "Treason Abounds"
Given that 50% of 40 million legal Hispanic Americans would be 20 million people, I'm thinking that would include more than 3 million people given amnesty in the 80s and their offspring. And I think, like with most things, different people have different views and opinions for different reasons.
"When Freedom is given cheaply its held to a lower standard. Not only is Freedom heald to a lower standard but so is the plight that generations of Legal imigrants went through to become Legal Citizens of the United States."
I'm not sure what you mean by this, Bruce. If you mean that offering amnesty as a way to gain citizenship instead of going through the normal process will somehow devalue American citizenship, and is some sort of insult to people who have gone through the normal process and done it all legally, I think you might be right.
On the other hand, the only thing the vast majority of Americans have to do to "earn" American citizenship is to be born. Does that mean those who actually have to go to some effort (whether its the normal naturalization process or meeting the requirements offered by some amnesty program) should be considered more American, or more patriotic than those who were granted citizenship by birth? I don't think so, but then I think all citizens should be considered equal.
"Why dont you tell us where your from? Are you ashamed of your place of Residence? I keep hearing people say your from Australia but you dont seem to want to answer. Is there a reason for that?"
No, I'm not ashamed of my place of residence. It's listed in my profile. I live in Canberra, the national capital of Australia. But I'm not from Australia originally. I've already given a number of reasons why I don't play the "Show us your papers!" game, but I don't mind telling you that I'm originally from the U.S.
"Wil, Pack your bags... you and the rest of the illegal invaders that you align yourself with are going to go back to whence you belong."
"What I believe in is the United States of America and its good citizens , not a bunch of communist driven sniveling idiots that don't have a country or have the balls to "fix" their own."
"We are a pro-white organization and we oppose changing demographics, we oppose open borders. We want a free, proud, white America."
"Don't be fooled! This guy Wil, (notice only one "l"), is probably a female named Wilma and a member of NCLR.
BTW, Wil(ma) you could have chosen a better photo to use as you icon - This guy looks like he just stepped out of a cave!
"All of you pro-illegal, humanitarian, Latino dumbasses are just pawns in a much larger plan, in which you are all being played as fools who think that the most important accomlishment is to help those poor downtrodden, spanish speaking, brown skinned bretheren come to the U.S. so they can have what you have."
Wave of hate? Where did they get that idea?
Here's what black America has to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Rrmg7rL66w
Like I said Wil, You never have ANY proof, just rhetoric B.S. Just once.. bring some proof that America needs to loose its sovereignity to the illegal invasion thats taking place right now.
The quote I gave was from Mike Sullivan, the Unit Coordinator for the National Vanguard group in Las Vegas.
"Here's what black America has to say"
No, that's what Ted Hayes had to say.
"You never have ANY proof, just rhetoric B.S. Just once.. bring some proof that America needs to loose its sovereignity to the illegal invasion thats taking place right now"
Why would I need to bring proof? I haven't says that America needs to lose its sovereignty, and I don't think there's any sort of "invasion" going on.
I'm still waiting for somebody to show me evidence of a connection between the map and the NCLR.
I'm with H.G. I've always believed that people like Wil(ma) Beltran , Jackie Beltran, Senobia and Rico are being payed to advocate here on Gather in support of illegal immigration and don't be suprised if they are being paid by our own Government to blog here. Of course they all will deny it, however people like H.G. , Bob as well as myself have been following this illegal immigration debate for several months now and we've all seen the trends. This debate heated up right around election time last November and right after the elections several of the pro-illegal advocates dropped off the radar screen. Then when the Immigration Reform Bill was being debated in Congress, a whole new crop of pro-illegal advoactes started posting on Gather. Now since the Bill has been defeated, here comes Wil(ma) Beltran out of the blue blogging on Gather. Do you see the trend here?
For anyone reading this article, please don't buy into these people's propaganda.
In response, Wil(ma) wrote " Wave of hate? Where did they get that idea? "
Wil(ma) ..to put it frankly, you are one stupid fucktard. If you had taken the time to do a little research on H.G. , you would have noticed the H.G. is an American of Hispanic desent.
So Mister Dumbass, you can take that " Hate Card " and shove it up your ass so far that it will never see the light of day again!
Oh..and I just fuckin' love it when these pro-illegals accuse H.G. of being xenophobic, racist or spreading " hate " against the illegal Hispanic immigrants! When one of you dumbfucks accuse H.G. of such bullshit, you have defeated your own cause and I just fuckin' love it! LOL