The illegal immigration issue has been a hot topic on Gather for quite some time now. And with the new Immigration Reform Bill being proposed, the topic is hotter than ever.
Most of us Americans are concerned about the security of our great country, and most of us feel that if illegal immigrants are provided amnesty, our wages will be deminished, the middle class will cease to exist and the illegals will bring with them just exactly what they are trying to escape from, thus reducing our once great nation to third world status.
Quite a few Gather members have suggested that the people who employ illegals should be targeted. Take away the jobs, and the illegals will self-deport. This could be accomplished by imposing stiff fines and penalties on those employers who hire illegals.
But just how can this be accomplished with the current immigration laws in place ? If the employer is using the I-9 form and requiring employees to provide the documents listed in colums A, B and C, how can it be proven that the employer knowingly hired illegal immigrants ?
Then on the other hand, if ICE receives a tip that a factory is possibly hiring illegals, how could they reasonably react on the tip ? If they decide to raid the factory based on a tip that immigrants are working there, their actions would be considered to be ' racial profiling ' and they would more than likely be sued as well as losing their jobs.
Is there a way around this ? Is there a way to hold those who hire illegals responsible without racial profiling ? Of course there is. Below is my proposal.
1: The employers would be required to verify the Social Security numbers of all applicants, and be required to match them to the names of the applicants, and they would be provided with a means to do so by the Federal Government at little to no cost. The I-9 is outdated and provides no proof that the applicant is authorized to work in the U.S. nor does it prove that the applicant is who he / she is who they claim to be. I'm not advocating a National I.D. card here by no means, however the employer should be provided with the means to verify the identity of the potential employee electronicaly at ltttle to no cost .
2: The Department of Labor at both the State and Federal levels would be required to conduct periodic checks at the sites of all employers. The inspectors would be required to check all of the personell files at the employer's sites as well as verifying the identity of the employees electronicly. If any vilolations are found, then the Department of Labor would be required to call ICE, and ICE would be required to impose stiff penalties, fines as well as possible prison time for the employers.
No racial profiling here folks.
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Comments: 146
My point is there wasnt anyone who was singled out as everyone had to do this.
Unfortunately, there are many employers who don't even bother to check on legal status despite the laws. These are the guys that need to be smacked hard. One business that was caught a year or so ago had 158 employees all with the same social security number. I'm sorry, but that person knew those people were illegal even if the number were a valid one for someone.
As for self-deporting we can be nice and offer one-way tickets home if we wish. It's crazy to argue that millions should just be rewarded for breaking the law and for hiding out in our country. Legal immigrants here have to jump through a bazillion hoops and wait a long time to come here. Why should these people, most of whom won't even bother to learn English, be allowed to stay ahead of these people who are waiting patiently to do things legally?
I don't know about you, but if I were somewhere I couldn't find a job, and I could go home, I would. I sure as heck wouldn't rob a bank. I don't want to see this country turned into a third world barrio. I've seen those. They're not pretty.
I have now also finally accepted this to my "Everything" group, sorry for any delays...
But please be patient... As of right now I still had 3925 pieces or so to accept in to the group. :o)
Regardless, we don't need these people here particularly if their only solution to problems is, as you say, to rob a bank and sell drugs. Exactly why do you feel we need a few million more thieves and/or drug dealers again?
The bottom line is that we need to dry up the jobs and the social services, properly interpret the 14th Amendment, and enforce our border security and immigration laws. That's our job. The illegals can decide for themselves what they want to do after that.
For me anyway, this isn't a matter of what should be, what rather what is. On a personal and human level I feel deeply sorry for these people, and I'm sure I would like most of them should I meet them. I understand why they're here. That's simply not my problem. I am totally unwilling to see this country reduced to a third world country so we can accommodate masses of illegals invading our country and dragging down our standard of living further.
"12-20 million unemployed people with nothing to loose would be the repercussion of "drying up" all jobs to illegal immigrants, and who knows what they would do, but I can bet you going back to Mexico isn't one of them. "
That is when a public announcement is made-----illegals have 6 months to get out of the country without any type of harassment. If caught in the country after that time-----they will get an automatic 6 months - 1 year in jail. Provide one-way transportation.
If necessary, bring in the National Guard.
Brenda, If we were to make that announcement then most would self deport and the others would risk the chance of ever becomming a citizen. Hmmm... I think this would work so well we could call this a REALLY good start.
And where in this article did I mention Mexico or Mexicans ? The topic is illegal immigration, not Mexico or Mexicans. So everybody please stay on the topic of illegal immigrantion with your comments.
67% of illegals are coming from Mexico. The next 27% are all other Latino/Hispanic countries. The remaining percentage are those from Africa, Europe, Asia, etc.
It does not matter what happened hundreds-----even thousands of years ago. What matters is NOW-----and the MAJORITY in this country are not willing to let Mexico----or any other freaken invading population-----take over OUR country.
If you want to live in a lawless, corrupt, 3rd world status country----move there----as the MAJORITY in this country are not going to let the US turn into a country such as Mexico!!!!!!
Please understand that I know that the system is broken and needs to be fixed. That doesn't excuse people jumping the border any more than the fact that there is no cop there to see you justifies you running a red light.
Personally I like the idea of a six month moratorium. First get the identification card set up and the readers and databases in place. Definitely fix the process as well. Then tell everyone that they have six months to go home and apply to enter legally. Anyone caught here without valid legal identification after that date and who is caught forfeits any chance of ever coming here legally and is deported. Works for me.
The bottom line is and always has been that we have the right to determine who does/does not come into this country. What's more, for security reasons, we need to know who and where these people are.
We can debate this until the second coming and nothing that you, me, Timothy, or anyone else on this site says if going to make the tiniest of differences. The sooner you all understand that this is just one small step in the marathon of "Globalization" and the NWO, the sooner you will realize you are nothing more than Fred Flintstone, when he goes to take off in his car and his feet start smoking the pavement before the car moves an inch. In other words, you just burning the flesh off your feet and not moving an inch
As interesting and firery and debatable as this topic is consider your self impotent when it comes to stopping it, at least stopping it the way most of us would like to...
My personal opinion, I'm so tired of writing it over and over. I really don't feel like debating this again; although I have never, will never in any way shape or form consider my self a quitter in anything I have ever done in my life, on this specific topic I just consider it moot....The only people that are going to benefit from the end result of this tragedy are going to be the politicians, big business, and the 12-20 million crimminals that are invading our country as we speak.
Now, if the Constitution is upheld, my right to bear arms is not taken away and I am still allowed to defend my country against all enemies foreign and domestic, after the next election, I got the solution, but in the mean time I think one of our fellow Gatherers pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as my take on all this bullshit is concerned...
Carolyn stated above quite well the following:
We are not responsible for providing a place to live for every poor, illiterate, uneducated and unskilled person on the face of the planet. It's our job to decide who comes here and for how long and under what conditions and then enforcing those laws. It is not our obligation to solve the corruption and poor governments in other countries when we cannot even deal with such issues here.
The bottom line is that we need to dry up the jobs and the social services, properly interpret the 14th Amendment, and enforce our border security and immigration laws. That's our job. The illegals can decide for themselves what they want to do after that.
For me anyway, this isn't a matter of what should be, what rather what is. On a personal and human level I feel deeply sorry for these people, and I'm sure I would like most of them should I meet them. I understand why they're here. That's simply not my problem. I am totally unwilling to see this country reduced to a third world country so we can accommodate masses of illegals invading our country and dragging down our standard of living further.
Everybody should take the time to read Todd's articles on the NWO, NAU, and Secret Societies.
The point about the Navajo and others has nothing to do with righting an ancient wrong. I am illustrating it is a metaphor to point out that we should all work together, Republican and Democrat and whatever, to find a common solution so our children are not hurt by the actions of people with "I am right" agendas.
Illegal is still illegal.
Just further evicdence of a much bigger picture.
What would be good in all this is to find some way to see the good in even the worst. I often present a very challenging perspective in my comments only to help some get out of a narrow view of contentious issues. Just as with a child who might be misbehaving in the school yard like a bully, if we can encourage the good in that person, we generally will find common ground everyone can work with. Bush to now has represented a gut reaction many of us had when 9-11 occurred. No painful image has so stuck in my memory as seeing my beloved Twin Towers go down in blood and smoke except perhaps the one one in childhood: the assassination of Jack Kennedy. Several hundred years ago, when similar, culturally divisive issues also were very contentious for the similar reasons we see in today's world, Jalaluddin Rumi - a poet and scholar - stated: All true faiths are based on the same mystical Oneness, since all humanity cherishes the same fundamental values. I saw recently a video on Youtube that illustrates this very well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWyJJQbFago
Let's see if we can't encourage that "good." I can be very opinionated sometimes here because in my work and in my life I have seen and experienced horrific suffering most people only read about. And due to that I have studied the roots of human suffering throughout history. One's "hard opinion" in a discussion generally does not change anyone else's hard-line opinion. My only reason for expressing in an intelligent way, a view that generally is expressed only with reactively gut emotions due to suffering and fear, is to provoke newer and more positive ways to problem solve issues which Bush, and really any leader, has inherited from the past. The perspective I've described in many of my comments here needs to be stated in an intelligent way so that we don't keep reacting and giving more inertia to these issues from the past. Does that make sense?
Perhaps someone here can write an intelligent article about the Bush administration's handling of the illegal immigration issue that illustrates the common ground and good which this president also is engaged in. He is a family man invested in home and hearth, and therefore, as Rumi stated, Bush's personal faith reflects somewhere a common ideal which all of humanity shares in. When he was governor of Texas, I see that most of his activities in that area were rather well-balanced. Let's see if we can't remind him of that.
In most of my present work I do this "positive reinforcement" through folk tales and other writing that evoke those evocatively optimistic and creative - and very solution-oriented - archetypes which we all have in us, tentatively waiting in the wings to find expression. We are not all that different upon meeting that inevitable equalizer - our deaths - whether poor and struggling south of the border or wealthy and elite in some high rise office. What would be good in the process of our lives is to make it a little better for every child. As a Christian, I would say that Christ's teaching is best summed up through his sermon on the mount.
" I am the decider " . In other words, what he was saying was " This is a Dictatorship and I'm the Dictator"
However, this whole issue isn't just about Bush. We were sold out long before he became President. Border Patrol Agents sent to Iraq to protect their borders ? ICE Agents being called upon to serve as Secret Service Agents as part of their job descriptions when there are a lot more FBI Agents available to perform those functions ?
Indeed some of this is the makings of Bush, however this is part of a larger picture. Most of what we are witnessing now has been in the making for a number of years.
I'll quote my Dad, who has always been the ultimate optimist. If I had wrote or said to him five years ago what I've written here, he would have said I was crazy, and he did. However the last two times I've spoken with him, he had these words to say.. " Son, I'm 70 years old now, and I'm telling you that our country is in serious trouble. We are f***ed. I hope that I don't see this in my lifetime, but I probably will, and I know that you will "
Then when I asked him what he meant, he said " Our Country will cease to exist as a Democracy "
Your dad is right. All US citizens who are awake and sane regarding this issue know exactly what is going to end up happening in this country.
Besides importing slaves for corporate America and millions of welfare recipients----they are importing lawlessness, corruption, disease, etc. Did everyone hear the report about the person who was forced into quarantine because of having treatment-resistant TB??? Currently, this is being brought into our country. Just as they have no fricken idea how many illegals are "really" here (it is definitely 20+ million)-----they have no clue what diseases have been brought into this country. Also, just last week there was an article about the Houston police force being threated by a Latino gang-----because one of their gangbangers was shot when the police were called because he was attempting to rob a business. Oh, and the business owners have also been threatened. This is what we are going to be forced to live with.
It makes me sick to my stomach to think that they are debating giving these lawbreakers amnesty----or whatever they are calling it this week.
According to Rector:
"Based on my current research, I estimate that if all the current adult illegal immigrants in the U.S. were granted amnesty the net retirement costs to government (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.5 trillion."
$2,500,000,000,000... that's almost $10,000.00 for every man woman and child in the United States!"
"If the American people knew what was in this bill, there would be a massive outcry against it."
You seem to be a rational man, although from some of your comments on this thread so far, you would have a hard time convincing me of it... And I really wouldn't call too many of these other people as witnesses for the defense.....
Your positive reinforcement mentality only goes as far as reality will allow it....I spent many years in sales and many years in leadership positions in the military preaching your Anthony Robbins type of mentality. Granted there are hundreds more motivational speakers I could list, Zig Ziglar, Doug Hall, Tony Jeary etc, etc... but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying....
There really is nothing left to be said when it comes to Bush. Yes, they have all inherited their fair share of shit from the previous administrations, but not many have destroyed that little bit left that was good the way GW has....
As far as writing an intelligent synopsis of Bush's handling of the immigration situation....There is nothing intelligent to write, simply because nothing intelligent has been accomplished. To be quite honest, I've read more intelligent, workable solutions from people here on Gather, than I have from people in the White House.
Now let me preface what I'm about to say with this. I'm not trying to be a Bush basher here. Just a realist.
OK, your idea that his faith carries any weight in his immigration decisions is at best foolhardy, at worst, insane. He's played that faith card to his best advantage, just like he was in The "Texas Hold'em Championship" and the pot was a million bucks. Just like Sharpton and Jackson play the race card to their advantage.
You obviously don't know the Bush family legacy too well if you think he makes decisions based on faith...His family, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rove have been in the Good Ole Boy network for years, actually long before Nixon, although the "Three Stooges" cemented their friendship during the Nixon Administration. And if there is not a buck to be made in a decision then he doesn't mess with it. Just ask those people in Texas about the Trans-Texas Corridor and GW...
I respect your positive outlook on life, to be quite honest, what's the point if your not gonna have an attitude such as that. But...... Optimism/Bush Administration, sorry I don't see it.
And as far as the Good Samaritan routine you expouse in the last paragraph of your comment above, hey I'm all for making a child's life a little better but not when it takes food out of my child's mouth to feed an Illegal Criminal's kid, actually if it takes one cent or one cheerio or one anything for that matter from my kid; and yes I said criminal, because if he/she is Illegal they broke the law, you break the law your a criminal and that's one point you can't argue!
I tend to believe that Bush is actually driven by Cheney in most of his political actions. But that's very relativistic of me.
The US illegal immigration issue can be seen in a couple of ways. We can look at the theories that drive it: the unfairness and suffering caused by our lopsided exploitation of other land's resources, including their workforce, vise vi, outsourcing, and try to solve it from that larger picture. But it took decades, if not more, for it to get to where it now is, and will take probably a nearly equal amount of time if we solve it from that angle. And we can see it in the day-to-day tough work the INS and other agencies, including state welfare agencies, employment agencies, motor vehicle agencies, etc. have in dealing with it, to protect the rightful claim that our boundaries should be sacrosanct while dancing the line of behaving with at least the same humanity as we deal with stray dogs.
What I've seen so far - both from Capitol Hill and Pennsylvania Avenue - as you and others point out, in no way addresses either points of view for a solution. Neither the hard nuts here and now, nor the underlying human suffering that drives it.
What I generally tell the people who come to me with their "oh so big personal problems" is to not solve the problem all in one chunk, otherwise you end up sabotaging yourself. The best solution, in my opinion, is not to make any huge and sweeping legislation which will wind up impacting tens of millions of people, and disenfranchising hundreds of millions of Americans on both sides of the Aisle, but to legislate a bit of the problem at a time. I mean, we've just diluted the border patrol on several fronts, to protect a large crowd of presidential candidates and to help in Iraq. So why not pass legislation that gives the border patrol some more resources to enforce exiting laws? Take it all one step at a time rather than attempting to solve it all at once. We already have the hugest source of discontent - the Iraq war - on the American table as an overwhelming issue. Why add to that? One step at a time.
At the same time we cannot afford to sweep this under the rug because we're too "busy". If we take immigration one step at a time we are gonna be stepping into the 22nd Century before this is solved, you think maybe that might be a little too late?...
The time frame is beside the point here. My point was and still is....Neither Bush or any other candidate for that matter is going to make any type of sweeping reforms what so ever as long as this shit is benefiting big business. Which in turn means it's never gonna stop....
The CFR and the governments of all three countries, US, Mexico and Canada have had this in the works for YEARS...Just because they live in different countries does not mean that big business thinks any different; it's dollar signs, pure and simple.
Our governments want this to happen and behind the scenes they are making it happen....ONE STEP AT A TIME....Bent. We as citizens are fighting a uphill if not losing battle in thinking that anytime soon the borders will be secure...That's a joke! As far as your existing law scenario, you are absolutely right, it worked for our Grandfathers and their fathers etc, etc, so why can't it work now? Simple, the government doesn't want it to. And the government is sabotaging it every chance they get...I know your thinking I'm some conspiracy nut, but I'm far from it. I've got a college degree, 10 yrs of service in the military and very grounded when it comes to researching the realities of the times in which we live, not to mention PLENTY of life experience....
One question I do have for you is this:
How would huge or sweeping or both legislation impact tens of millions of people and disenfranchise hundreds of millions of Americans?
The only thing huge and sweeping legislation would do is put back into line the enormous overflow of illegal activity caused by our borders being so porous...Yeah it will affect millions upon millions of Americans, not in a negative way, but a positive way, and I'm really not up to listing all the ways, I'm sure you already know them.
To further re-enforce my condemnation of Bush on this topic, while we are at it, please explain to me why, if he is so concerned about this has he diluted (your words) the border patrol on so many fronts...Sorry, but in my mind, our border is a hell of alot more important than Iraq's', not to mention last time I checked guarding Presidential candidates is the job of the Secret Service and the FBI...
Bent, let's face it this is no definitive answer here, and there never will be...our Government is on a path of self-destruction and as optimistic as I want to be for the sake of my kids, that little "Reality Devil" keeps popping up on my other shoulder saying..."Fuck you, fuck you".....If you have the answer or even a semblance of one, I'm all ears...And I'll be happy to debate this topic with you til the sun don't shine...But I got a lot of facts and a lot of stuff for you to read, if you want to continue, that just might even make your optimism turn to pessimism....
Take a look at this article. I believe that Jorge Boosh is connected to the cartels!!
LOS AMIGOS DE BUSH
http://www.elandar.com/bush/amigos.html
However, any sane person can see/understand why rewarding illegals with amnesty/citizenship for breaking our laws is definitely NOT the answer!!!!
Getting the Government the Third World Deserves
By Selwyn Duke
"Since our largest immigrant group hails from Mexico, let's look south of the border. Mexico is a thoroughly corrupt country, not at all unique in the Third World but certainly emblematic of it. For instance, they have the dubious distinction of possibly having the most corrupt police force in the world, as Mexican authorities enforce whatever law pays them the most. According to a documentary on the subject, you can buy your way out of a fatal hit-and-run for 450 dollars.
But the corruption is so systemic that many of us have heard the stories ourselves. I remember being told of a man who traveled to Mexico and was mugged by the police (a documented example of theft by Mexican police can be found here). Then I heard about a hapless soul who had to sell his home to pay tribute to a family with more clout and a grudge against him; the police paid him a visit and told him he'd be shot if he didn't. Most recently, an acquaintance told me how he was pulled over for running a stop sign that didn't exist and had to pay the crooked cop a bribe so he could continue on his way. And this corruption is mirrored in every aspect of Mexican society, in the bureaucrats, the courts and, of course, the politicians.
This is why cultural equivalency doctrine is nonsense. People may complain about corruption here, and while it certainly exists, it's the exception, not the norm; by and large, we are still governed by the rule of law. We don't fully appreciate this because in just the same way some of us take our lifestyle for granted - not realizing ours is a life of silk and satin as compared to most of the world - we also take for granted that one will be able to conduct everyday business and others will play by the rules. But in most of the world this is the exception, not the norm.
In other words, if we want to descend into a culture of corruption, all we need do is continue the mass importation of Third Worlders through immigration, both illegal and legal. Naturalization won't inculcate virtue immediately; rather, they will bring their passions, ideology and voting habits with them and lend their support to the same kinds of corrupt leftists they supported in their native lands.
If you want a glimpse of things to come (unless we reverse course), just study states in which Third Worlders have settled. California was once a place where Ronald Reagan reigned supreme, a conservative citadel. Now, with the majority of its population being of Third World and Asian heritage, it's on the cutting edge of societal devolution. Its senators are Barbara Boxer and Diane Feinstein, and it has become a metaphor for politically correct insanity. Reagan could be resurrected with all his charm and oratorical splendor, and he would not win his home state.
Arizona is another prime example. Once synonymous with Barry Goldwater, it now elects senators such as John McCain and Jon Kyl, amnesty advocates both. Hey, they know their constituency.
What do you think will happen when the Third World invasion hits your region? Is your state possessed of a special aura that will magically transform these groups' collective ideology? The truth is that once the whole nation looks like California, you'll be pressing two for English.
As for those welcoming this cultural suicide, they will learn the hard way that one must be careful what he wishes for; you see, by and large, they know not what they sow. The politicians are blinded by power, the business interests by money, and the Mexicans by ethnic patriotism. And, ironically, it is the last group that will probably be most unhappy as we devolve into Mexico North. The only concerns of politicians and business are, respectively, power here and now and money here and now. Most of these people are fairly old, and life beyond the next few elections or few dozen financial quarters is of no consequence. If they are still around, perhaps assimilating into the culture of the French Riviera by joining the locals in mockery of boorish Americans, their Gulfstream jets will spirit them away to lands of milk and honey and their plunder will buy them all the political favors and favorable court rulings a Master of the Universe could ever need.
The hapless Third Worlders, like most of the rest of us, won't be so fortunate. Languishing in a nation reminiscent of Blade Runner (that is, assuming America remains intact), they won't have pockets deep enough in which to keep police, bureaucrats, judges and politicians.
Of course, one group that will welcome this cultural and economic breakdown is the Islamists. A corrupt, balkanized land where political correctness carries the day is fertile soil for those who prey on desperate souls yearning for meaning and moral order.
Be assured, though, immigration will come to an end. Once the rape of these United States is complete, with money redistributed, productivity and wealth creation squelched and currency devalued, immigrants will stop coming here. People generally don't go from one Third World country to another."
Entire article through link...............
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/05/
getting_the_government_the_thi.html
Your preaching to the choir here....I'm on your side 1000%, I'm just starting off slow and easy.....But I got plenty of ammo on stand-by..LOL..
I read that article/link you put in the comment above....Damn....Actually, I think I gonna post that as an article myself. I'm gonna check on the copyright angle and make a few changes/additions but that is something everyone needs to see....
Thanks a million for letting me in on it!!
Todd
Isn't that article unbelievable!!!! Based on all of the corruption, lies, etc. that Bush and his administration has been caught at, can anyone really doubt that it is possible??? Doesn't it make some sense of what is currently going on----why Jorge Boosh is not closing the borders and enforcing our laws???
In regard to copyright laws-----make sure that you list the author, etc. like I did. Make sure that you put all info that you take directly from the article in quotes----make sure that you mention the author if you paraphrase, and provide the link to the article at the bottom.
I never said that the individual with TB was Hispanic, Mexican, or illegal.
I said that all of these illegals are coming into this country without health checks. They are coming from countries where infectious diseases such as drug-resistant TB, Chagras disease, polio, etc. are well known. They are now bringing these infectious diseases into the US and infecting/exposing US citizens to them.
"a corrupt system of taking money illegally"
This is "acceptable" way of doing business for politicians, police, etc. in Mexico. If this amnesty passes, the US will soon be the same way!!!
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www.americanpatrol.com
Articles/information from throughout the country regarding the illegal invasion. It is updated twice a day!!
Any company that wants to verify a social security number can easily though government provided sites. The easy next step would be for every employer to have to verify an employee at this site before they can be paid. In the world of technology, it should not be too difficult to have checks and balances.
Why are illegal immigrants allowed to attend school, access medical care and many other government programs. I am a legal immigrant and don't take anything from the system. In fact I provide a nice healthy tax input into the system. I expect the same of anyone else entering this or any other country. Legal immigrants are finger printed and have green cards to prove they are eligible to work in the United States. If they break the law, they can be deported, but not the illegal immigrants. Why become legal?
One huge step towards dicouraging people from coming to the country for the wrong reason would be to eliminate access to any programs for illegal immigrants. If you go to a foreign country, you should have a means to support yourself or you shouldn't go. If they already have family here, then let them provide sponsorship and be responsible for their own family.
Why is there uproar about having English as an offical language? I assume from the uproar that most Americans plan to learn Spanish not English in the not so distant future.
As I am not an American citizen yet I cannot vote, or contact my senator to make sure my voice is heard, but why aren't Americans doing this? I hear a lot of whining and complaining, but have not once heard anyone doing anything to make a difference. Unless you take action this country may not be what you want in 20 years time or less. I will be working on becoming a citizen so that I can have a voice. Right now it is up to you.
What to do about the 12-20 million is not altogether clear.
Sending them back will put an awful lot of restaurants out of business and make harvests much more difficult. And we can be sure there will be unintended consequences that may rival the problem itself.
Sealing borders, tighter employment safeguards, fining employuers and such are all good ideas, but they are not a solution.
The new law is a step forward and way better than anything we have now. Maybe by the time it is mauled in Congress, it will be a better step forward. To do nothing is a really bad idea, to do something is a start.
There is no easy fix. Live is just not that way.
i somehow think it is all about the greed of people, not particularly illegals either.
if someone does something illegal, we are supposed to deal with them in court (ie
immigration courts) and if people are here illegally, they deserve to be sent back from whence the came. i am so sick of illegals complaining. they have no rights here. they are not here legally. they are not citizens. most won't even learn the language. i am tired of going to a store (large chain discount stores) and needing to filter through 5-8 people before i can find one who speaks english. to those who are learning American language and are here legally, i salute your desire to become a citizen of USA.
2- we hate the war, but please do support our men and women away from their families so we can do what we do-express our opinions. jo oliver
Do people no longer think in terms of legal and illegal or have people forgotten what it even means. Do Americans even consider what this is doing to our economy. Illegal workers are taking jobs and by doing that are bringing salaries down. Many construction jobs that at one time paid well are now mininum wage or near mininum wage. This is even better for companies that will hire illegals. They have workers that are willing to work for small wages and in turn they save thousands by not having to pay any benefits or even employment taxes because these people aren't on their payrolls in reality. Enough said.
You get the "award" for worst post ever. You are right that our immigration
problem has nothing to do with ethnicity, but you couldn't be more wrong when you say it has nothing to do with nation of origin. It has EVERYTHING to do with
nation of origin. The nations of origin (mostly Mexico) are the origin of the problem.
I hate to say it but without taking Mexico (and the copycat countries) on,
head to head, this problem ain't going to get fixed. Let's understand it fully,
Mexico is DELIBERATELY sending their poor folks to us. Corporate Mexico, whose
top tier tax rate is an incredibly selfish 10%, and their running dogs, the Mexican
government are actively participating. One example : The guidebooks printed by
the Mexican govt to assist Mexican migrants (invaders is a more correct word) to
come here and evade our authorities.
Do we all realize that the $60 Billion/year haul that Mexican illegal aliens are burglarizing us for (remittances + human services) is Mexico's # 1 source of income ? This is truly an INVASION. Hell, even the Japanese in WWII didn't get
inside the country and occupy us with 12-20 million of their citizens and extract
$107 Billion/yr (not counting the drug trade) out of us and re-insert it into their
economy.
Even if the whole fence got built, what's to stop the invaders from launching
boats from Mexico right up into Texas and California ? They're already doing it here
in Florida. Or how about those old rickety planes ? They can fly over the fence, no ?
What we need is James K Polk (the 11th President of the United States) and the
American people of the 1840s, all over again. I'd suggest complete air & naval
blockades of both Mexican coasts and a re-enactment of General Winfield Scott's
1848 invasion of Mexico when his US troops surrounded Mexico City, breached the
Mexican defenses after a year of fierce fighting, and took over the city and held it
until the Mexicans agreed to our demands.
In addition, I'd seize Mexico's south Gulf coast oil fieds and their gold and silver
mines on the Mexico/US border as repayment for all the billions they've stolen from
us over the paqst 30 years in the biggest international burgary in world history
(the Vikings would be envious).
Jake, How about the first thing that we do is enforce the laws of this country. The laws on the books at the present time will take care of the illegals, PRONTO. If this new bill gets passed the old laws will be null and void. I hope this is not what you want for this country
"Sending them back will put an awful lot of restaurants out of business and make harvests much more difficult."
Too bad, they deserve it for hiring illegals in the first place!!! It also wasn't fair to businesses that were trying to abide by the laws and only hire LEGAL immigrants/citizens. They deserve everything that they get!!!!
Actually, they should be prosecuted through the RICO laws.
But all this will work only as well as the intent behind it. In a society where one's persona is so monitored, one had better pray that everyone in law enforcement all the way to the commander in chief are people virtually divine in nature devoid of any type of personal agenda, and that is an impossibility. The only solution in today's world is for Americans to live a bit closer to the ideals set forth by our Bill of Rights and its Constitution. I hate to use an incredibly worn out quote, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. Those who wish to legislate this illegal immigration quagmire into a police state will eventually find themselves in a cruel prison of their own doing.
Bent....Where do you actualy live ? You tend to refer to Denmark in your comments.
Bob: The North American highway is NAFTA thinking at its worst. Thank goodness
for Lou Dobbs or I, like most Americans, wouldn't even know about this secretly
connived attack on our national sovereignty and well-being. What we are going to do about it is the same thing that we need to do in general. That is 1. Impeach
Bush and Cheney for about 100 reasons. 2. Vote out the pathetic, jellyfish
opportunists in Congress trying to pass themselves off as representitives of us -
Yeah right ! And number 3, go after Mexico with the same disregard that they've
been showing us. Enough speaking softly, it's time for the "big stick".
Bent: I haven't heard of anyone legislating the illegal immigration "quagmire" into
a police state, have you ? I do know, though, that extreme situations (our nation
undergoing it's worst invasion ever) call for extreme solutions (which simply fit it).
There's nothing police statish about a country defending itself from outside
invaders who have been pillaging it. If our neighbors entered the relaxed BORDERS
of our homes (if we left our doors unlocked and open), and they proceeded to
remove large quantities of our wealth (TV, Stereo, Computer, etc), then we'd take
defensive action by at least locking our doors, wouldn't we ? If we wouldn't, it's
only because we've already got our doors and windows locked.
Yeah, I agree. Police states are bad. But we can't allow the worry of a police state to stop us from protecting ourselves from national catastrope (especially to
our poor and working class).
Also, who's being alienated? Why would anyone who is an American citizen, whose
jobs are being swiped, wages reduced, tax bases reduced (especially Blacks and
Hispanics - the biggest victims) be alienated by us fighting to protect our jobs, our
wages and our culture ?
The second part of the idea is great. It proposes new jobs to be created. But again this would need the government funding to get off the ground. Here we run into the same problems as were listed previously in my comment here.
Now the way to start this and get it working is to form your own company that can do the background checking for the companies at minimal cost. It might be possible to use this idea and get a not for profit company started to keep the costs down, but I am not sure. With the recent ICE hits companies would probably jump at the idea of being able to put the blame on someone else if they were to get raided. One add that would make it a little easier to get this into something workable is to find a way to connect pictures with the SSN in the system. This would be a relitavly low cost way of updating an outdated system. Would love to here what you think of this.
Please remember that I am not bashing, just my humble opinion!
Minuteman : There is now an in fighting for control of the Minutemen Organization between founder Gilchrist and several members of the organization. Allegations of misappropriation of group funds have been brought against Jim Gilchrist and a court battle lies in the future. Meanwhile co-founder Chris Simcox's past has caught up with him. Allegations of attempted child molestations charges have surfaced. Now I can see why someone would hold these pervert, alleged pervert, as a role model and hero. Makes you wonder if there are others like Simcox in the Minutemen or in Simcox's organization
Numbers USA: NumbersUSA is directed by Roy Beck, this group supports the Federation for American Immigration Reform and the American Immigration Control Foundation in their immigrant-bashing billboard campaign. Dan Stein whose statements include "Certain immigrant groups are engaged in competitive breeding aimed at diminishing white power heads the Federation for American Immigration Reform. According to the SPL Center "Beck also is the Washington editor of The Social Contract, a quarterly journal that has published articles by "white nationalists" like Samuel Francis, who was fired from the conservative Washington Times after writing a racially inflammatory column, and James Lubinskas, a contributing editor for the racist American Renaissance magazine."
American patrol: This anti-Hispanic group is headed by Glenn Spencer, founded in California in 1992 as "Voices of Citizens Together," Spencer's group main philosophical point is a conspiracy theory, which warns of a plan by Hispanics to "invade" and "conquer" the Southwestern U.S. While Spencer tries to downplay his extremist message by claiming that he is not a racist, racist and anti-government extremist groups across the country have embraced his rhetoric; indeed, Spencer has personally appeared at events sponsored by white supremacists and racists
Any person/group that does not support/accommodate the invasion of our country by illegals is considered "racist" and "xenophobic" by you!!! You have made your opinions/intentions very clear many times. You feel that the US and US citizens should just let this invasion take place-----no matter how many problems it will cause the country or US citizens.
There are MANY legal citizens/immigrants of Hispanic/Latino descent that feel the same way that you do!!! As a matter of fact, there is a group that expresses/promotes the same feelings as you. It is called, "You Don't Speak for Me". Here is their website if you are interested.
http://www.dontspeakforme.org
improper. First of all, we don't know who it is you are referring to as "white supremacists and racists". And even IF those people were as you describe, what is
there to say that everyone at that event is a supporter of those views ?
Often I listen to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity on the radio. Other than the
immigration issue, I probably disagree with everything they say, but I listen because it's necessary to know what everyone is saying, especially those who have
a platform and thus, some impact.
During the Vietnam War years, I was a staunch opponent of the war. But I attended events both pro and con, and I wasn't even really involved in the issue
as much as people like Glenn Spencer is in his. I don't think you KNOW exactly why he was in attendance where he was. For that matter the "Reconquista"quest of some Mexicans to reconquer the Southwestern U.S. is well known and documented as the
groups involved claim that the 1840s Americans stole it from their Mexican, Hispanic
ancestors. They don't mention that their Spaniard ancestors stole it from the Indians (and all of Mexico as well). Haven't you seen the signs at protest rallies
claiming "This is our continent" ? Also, I went to 2 of those protests (2006 & 2007),
even though I strongly oppose their message. So, just because I was there, I
should be considered a supporter of them ? Not hardly. I spoke to about 100 of them just to hear what they had to say. Every word I spoke was in Spanish since
not a single one of them spoke English. They were all illegal aliens trying to grab
our jobs and wealth, and using the kindness of our first amendment against us.
As for Chris Simcox, do you have one shred of EVIDENCE that he ever engaged
in a single act of child molestation ? All you've told us is that "allegations of attempted child molestations charges have surfaced". In our system of justice, that
means, in a word, NOTHING. Remember the "allegations" against John Kerry by the
Swift Boat boys ? They were false and delibertly contrived by people with an agenda against Kerry. If Simcox had been arrested, tried and convicted, in a fair,
proper trial, THEN you could denounce as you've done. Now you can't. Allegations
don't cut it. In political life, there's lots of of people who use smear talk to attack
their enemies. Usually it's the ones who don't have a valid argument to make.
Robert, Olivia and Brenda..Interesting points from all of you, thanks for your comments.
Juan....Thanks for your comments as well, however I must ask you this question ( and I'm sure you knew this was coming eventually ) why do you pick apart any group or law that is against illegal immigration ?