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by Edward Nudelman
Member since:
January 17, 2006

Publish or Perish?

May 21, 2007 09:40 AM EDT (Updated: May 21, 2007 09:36 PM EDT)
views: 698 | rating: 9.8/10 (121 votes) | comments: 176

 

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POETRY CENTRAL  Volume 2, Number 3  ~ Publish or Perish? ~ 

How do I get my work published?  Are my poems, short stories, manuscripts for novels, good enough to be published?  What are my short-term versus long-term goals in getting published?  Is this a one-time proposition, or do I want to try to make a career of my writing?  These, and other relevant questions, need to be considered before launching into what is a very time-consuming, frustrating and often irritating process.  I can speak from experience.  What follows is a slanted, biased view from one writer's experience.  Although I have been around the block, and have successfully published several books, I fully understand that everyone's expectations and experiences differ markedly.  I hope we can use this article as a forum for an ongoing discussion and critique on the wonders and pitfalls of publishing.

 

 

Recently, my experience in publishing has centered on my poetry.  But several years ago I worked on two non-fiction books that finally were published by a prominent publisher in Gretna, LA (Pelican Publishers).   When my wife and I first settled into a routine in Seattle, before our first child was born, we used to haunt all of the antique shops in the greater Seattle area.  She would hunt for antiques, and I’d inquire if they had any “old books.”  I started finding older children’s books, published in the early 1900’s, and my wife, who comes from a long line of celebrated artists (her aunt was the illustrator of the Dick and Jane books!) would steer me toward the better ones.  Before long I started forming a collection of early children’s books by an American illustrator, Jessie Willcox Smith.  I began reading about her in the library, researching the art period in America at the close of the 20th Century.  I wrote booksellers to see if they had books illustrated by Smith.  After about five years, I had acquired the largest and most complete collection of her first editions in private hands.  So I started working on a definitive bibliography of her work, describing all of the books, edition points, priorities, magazine appearances, calendars, prints, etc., and making a photographic record of over 400 individual images.  To do this, I had to learn how to write a bibliography.  I consulted books, friends in libraries, ran drafts by friends and family, bounced ideas off anyone who would listen.  Finally, I had something of a finished product.

 

The next step was to see if I could find a publisher for my work, which was not a fully completed manuscript, but nearly so.  I put together a color packet with representative photographs, included about five pages of text which showed the kind of “nuts and bolts” of the book, and wrote a snappy introductory letter describing the artist and her impact on the American art history scene.  I then went to the public library and found a list of publishers and a subset of those who issued art books, art history and bibliographies.  I came up with about fifty and sent packets off to every one.  I then waited, and after awhile started getting rejections.  Rejection after rejection.  Until one day I got a phone call (not a letter!) from a publisher who was thoroughly excited about the prospect (Pelican).  We went on to publish five books together. 

 

Granted, the above case history is in the non-fiction sector.  But I think the basic principles involved in publishing are transferable from non-fiction to poetry as well.  As I see it, here are the essentials.  1) There was a developmental phase where I concentrated on my craft (in this case, building a collection, researching the art history of the period and learning how to write a definitive bibliography).  In the fiction/poetry genre, that would equate to honing your craft, taking writing classes, participating in workshops, etc.  2) There was an assessment phase.  Is my work worthy of publication?  How does it compare, objectively, to similar examples in the particular genre I’m writing?   To assess this, you need to find qualified people who will give you the straight shake down, no holds barred.  Send examples to friends, associates, contacts in literary circles.  Post your work on writing forums, social communites like MySpace, Facebook, and of course, Gather.  3) There was a self-examination phase.  What are my goals in getting published?  Are my goals in line with my product.  For example, getting a poem or a short story published in a journal is one thing, getting a novel or memoir published quite another.  Do I need to take incremental steps, like publishing in journals, or am that good to get my novel published in book form by a publisher that will actually market and distribute the book? 4)  Am I prepared to commit time and energy to help publicize the product either by making public appearances or spending hours on end networking and huckstering.  5) Then, of course, if it’s all-systems-go with 1-4, you arrive to the submitting phase.  In order to address this, I’d like to talk a little about my experience in submitting poems to journals.

 

Publishing poems can be among the most frustrating of all publishing endeavors.  You get the unique opportunity to have your individual “creations” come back in the mail, literally daily, with cute little letters explaining that your poems are excellent, just not what the publishers are looking for.  In the past year I have submitted about 30 separate poems, in five different mailings, to about 100 poetry journals.  To date I have about a dozen published poems.  I'm pretty happy with these results.  But it hasn't been easy.  In fact, it's been very taxing.  Lately, I come home and my wife doesn't even alert me to the fact that I've got  letters from journals.  One, two or even three letters have been neatly opened and stacked on the table.  I still read the various rejection letters and mimic in some sacrcastic comic voice a not-so-laudatory summary of the respective journal and editor.  I hear my wife snickering upstairs.  

 

Submiting poetry to the prominent poetry journals today, either in print, or in the many superb online poetry journals that now rival printed poetry reviews, is an extremely competitive and time-consuming proposition.  Less than one half of one percent of poems submitted to most of the more acclaimed poetry journals are accepted.  Further, there is a long-standing fraternal relationship that many journals maintain with already established, well-known poets.  After that, editors often are looking for young up-and-coming authors in English departments at universities, who have a sort of visibility and can bring credibility to the magazine.  Finally, there is a prominent “speak” that editors are often looking for.  If you are a very good poet with your own voice, you may be excluded because your poetry doesn’t fall into the genre that is currently being published.

 

So with all that under consideration, why even try?  One thing is for sure, you have to believe in yourself.  You have to have the energy to be persistent, in the face of rejection.  And you have to understand the process.  I think it’s important to resist the temptation to be insolent and pass off rejection as being a function of the editors.  Things are what they are.  If you don’t like the process, there’s an easy way out.  Don’t submit.  Or you can have your work published by a plethora of fee-for-service “publishers,” which is really no different than paying for the printing costs.  There is no distribution or visibility in the package.  And that may be all that one is looking for, which is all well and good.  However, if you want your work read, and you want to be published in venues that have wide readership and distribute their product, and perhaps even provide you with royalties (we should be so lucky!), then you need to work on perfecting your writing.  Submit.  And submit. 

 

With regard to publishing your poetry, specifically, I think it’s far better to have an established record of publishing in journals before trying to get a collection published in say a chapbook or a book of poems.  To this end, you have to know the publishing guidelines of each journal.  This is extremely important.  Each journal has different specifications.  Some require that you submit only three poems at a time, others five or six.  Some will say they accept by email, but no attachments, others will accept only in rtf attachments.  Most print journals will only accept poems submitted in a typed manuscript, and nearly all insist that you include a self-addressed stamped envelope with your name and address on it.  If you don’t have one in the envelope, they won’t even read the poems!  Then there is the reading period.  Most journals have a specific reading period, like September through May.  Try to send some poems in June and back they come, pronto.  Finally, include a short biographical sketch (no more than 5-10 lines max) and a nice, terse introductory letter.  Don’t be cute or witty, just professional.  Trust me, they get so many poems and so many crooked, crazy intro letters, they can smell a bad one in a stack of a hundred letters.

 

Below, I have provided some links to a number excellent online poetry journals as well as some prominent print journals.  Go to their sites and read examples of the kind of poetry they’re publishing.  Most journals will provide a few poems as examples, and some will have archives of past numbers, many with multiple examples of poems.  If you feel you’re up to it… go ahead and submit some poems.  Make sure the poems you submit do not already appear in any online journals.  In most cases, a poem appearing on an online community like Gather, a private poetry group, or even a blog will not be a problem.  Still, you should withdraw the poem(s) from online venues before you submit it.  Some journals are pretty touchy about that and may google the the title or the first few lines.  If ten lines pop up from a search, you can be sure your poem will be panned.  Finally, don’t forget to go into the “Guidelines” or “Submitting” section and pay close attention to the specifications for submitting poems. 

 

So there you have it, not an exhaustive account on how to get your poems or short stories published, but perhaps a starting place for some and a prod for others to get you to start thinking about publishing your work.  It can be an extremely rewarding and gratifying experience to have your work appear in print or on a prestigious online journal.  Please use the comment thread below for any questions you may have, not only directed to me, but others here at Gather who have achieved far more than I have in publishing their work.  I’m sure they’d be happy to interact here as well.  And don’t forget to relate any personal testimonies of publishing successes or failures.

 

Some Top Online Poetry Journals (starred my favorites)

 

Able Muse

Adirondack Review 

Beloit Poetry Journal*

Blue Jew Yorker

Blue Moon Review 

Boxcar Poetry Review*

Kenyon River Review*

Le Petite Zine

Merge Poetry

Mipoesias Magazine*

Modern Review

Mudlark* 

Orange Room Review

Penwood Review* 

Poesy Magazine

Rattle 

Shampoo

Shine

Tears in the Fence*

Thick With Conviction

White Leaf Press

 

 

Some Top Print Poetry Journals (starred my favorites)

 

American Poetry Review 

Antioch Review*

Atlantic Monthly*

Barrow Street

Chicago Literary Review

Cimarron Review

Cincinnati Review

Fence

Kalliope

Missouri Review

New Criterion

New England Review*

New Yorker

Nimrod

Paris Review

Poetry*

Seneca Review

Southwest Review

Yale Review*

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Written by Edward Nudelman, Books Correspondent for POETRY CENTRAL

Keep up with Ed’s other posting and Gather activity by joining his Gather network-just click here and select the orange “Connect” button on the left-hand side of the page.

You can also find also find a convenient index to all of the POETRY CENTRAL articles published on the Books Channel by simply clicking here.

 

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Comments: 176

Sue P. May 21, 2007, 9:50am EDT
A 10+ Account! A wonderfully written, informative article that serves a greater purpose than just a good read! Thank you for sharing this with us!
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Christine G. May 21, 2007, 9:56am EDT
Good article.
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Larry H. May 21, 2007, 9:58am EDT
Wow thanks for sharing
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Michael M. May 21, 2007, 10:00am EDT
Very helpful and worth bookmarking. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
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Robin"Buffy's Stunt Double" D. May 21, 2007, 10:02am EDT
Very informative article! The publishing resources listed add to an already helpful article.
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william foos May 21, 2007, 10:04am EDT
i have had a few poems published in anthologys. i have a fear of doing it on my own. even thought i do have a lot of fans, there are the ones that do not understand why i write the way i do. just because i write in lower case all the time except when using the name of God or doing an acrostic and refraining from punctuation there have been many that chose do do it this way or having my poems centered i feel is part of the art work that goes with poetry sorry to ramble but those are my thoughts
love the papa
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Robb F. May 21, 2007, 10:05am EDT
Great, informative article. Thanks for sharing your hard-won knowledge.
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Kathryn E. May 21, 2007, 10:05am EDT
Interesting Ed that you should publish this now. I was just looking up Jessie Wilcox Smith last week on Google, after Googling you. I remember last year you mentioned your wife's Aunt as the Illustrator of everyone's favorite Dick and Jane series.

This is a fine piece; will be back later to more thoroughly read it.

Good advice for people seeking to publish, too.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 10:06am EDT
William, thanks for your candor. I can relate regarding the fear of "doing it on my own." Thanks for your comment.
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arlene (no shame in my game) w. May 21, 2007, 10:10am EDT
Thanks, but I am definitely no poet.
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Janna O'Donnell May 21, 2007, 10:14am EDT
Thank you, Ed. I hope someday to join you in the ranks of published poets. This is an informative and realistic article.
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Ana B. May 21, 2007, 10:16am EDT
Thanks for a very informative article !!!
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Cheryl W. May 21, 2007, 10:19am EDT
Great information, Edward. Thank you!
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 10:27am EDT
Daniela, you bring up a key question, and that is the relationship that one needs to establish with a publisher and/or and editor once interest (but not complete committment) or a contract has been signed. This is where agents can be helpful. But my advice is, try to establish phone contact with key people in the publishing house, either the publisher, his/her assistant, or editors. They can answer your questions, and if there's a real desire to publish your work, it will move along. Having complete silence, however, is often an indication that they're really not very interested. Hope this helps. Thanks for the comment, Daniela
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Heather C. May 21, 2007, 10:29am EDT
Excellent article. One that I will read and reread and has already helped me. It has got me thinking.
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Carolion Grailbear May 21, 2007, 10:33am EDT
Excellent article, Ed - as usual, of course - but really. The one thing I always look for is the part where the author survives (lol!) numerous rejections. AH! Medicine for the weary.
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manoj sanyal May 21, 2007, 10:37am EDT
Great info... thanks Ed.... and it is more difficult for me being in India and of Indian origin.... Let me try harder.
Thanks again.......
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Jill J. May 21, 2007, 10:41am EDT
Thank you! My personal endeavor is to do a book on Old Forgotten American Structures. So, this article does help a lot.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 10:44am EDT
Jill, very interesting. Keep us posted.

Manoj, yes, keep at it. You're work is superb!
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Andy Z. May 21, 2007, 10:45am EDT
Excellent! Very informative and encouraging!
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jessie voigts May 21, 2007, 10:45am EDT
great job, ed. i love your jessie willcox smith books - i saw them on amazon!
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 10:47am EDT
Thanks so much, Jessie. They were really a work of love. I got to meet JWS's gardener, who was 94 at the time and still lived in her studio in Philadelphia. She was a wonderful lady who died shortly after our visit, but I got a lot of great info and anecdotes from her.
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Vicky P. May 21, 2007, 10:54am EDT
This is very informative and helpful, thank you for all the tips.
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Sarah A. May 21, 2007, 10:55am EDT
so impressive and intersting.informative as well.good job Ed!...thanks for sharing!
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amanda wallin May 21, 2007, 11:04am EDT
Thanks Ed. Useful to know as I'm going to self publish soon. I'll compare prices. LULU is another that's only one hundred and only takes one dollar royalty fee.
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Jerry Stubbs May 21, 2007, 11:05am EDT
Ed, this is excellent advice. I shall print this out for future use. I've had several poems published in print by The International Library of Poetry. I've quit submitting to them as they only allow one poem per publication and it can't be more than 20 lines. And if I want to see it in print, I have to buy the book which costs about $85 if I remember correctly. I've inquired in bookstores and libraries but they never have them. I have concluded that it is just a ploy for them to get lots of would be poets to pay enough to print these nice looking books and they only print enough for those that buy one. Some of the poems are good but lots are louzy. I would like to have a book of just my poetry but it is so expensive to self-publish. It would be nice to be paid for my work instead of paying for it.
Long ago I actually was paid for a travel article I submitted to Trailer Life. And I had a contract with International Living to publish some articles on my travels to Peru. But they backed out months later and paid me a "kill fee". A few months after that they featured articles about Peru written by the person whom I had been speaking with during my negociations.
Thanks for your well thoughtout advice.
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t b. May 21, 2007, 11:08am EDT
As always Edward, I thoroughly enjoyed reading you today. Not only the poems from your life, but also your other voices too. Here you have decribed getting published in a matter of fact way. Almost as though you were trying to remove some of the terror for would be published writers. (fear really is like a little death)

When I first joined Gather, you were the first author I felt the need to read every day. You are by far still my favorite, and on the days you dont post, I feel the loss of a friend.......t
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Lisa Gensheimer May 21, 2007, 11:08am EDT
Ed, I didn't know about your non-fiction. How wonderful that you are preserving the legacy of Jessie Willcox Smith! At noontime I'm going to rush over to the bookshop in town where there is a nice collection of old children's books. You never know, she just might have something. The process you describe is much like the path we follow for our documentaries. It's like being on a treasure hunt, isn't it?
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 11:10am EDT
Amanda, I've heard a lot of folks really like Lulu. I'm having three of poems published by a poetry journal that uses Lulu as their publishing vehicle!
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 11:12am EDT
Jerry, great.. but I'd have to agree, I believe it is a ploy. There's not criteria for acceptance. I've never seen the finished product, and kind of sneaky to make you buy it (i.e. not get a free copy). But that's the modus operandi for that sort of route. I don't recommend it.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 11:15am EDT
Terry, you're killing me with your kind words (but I'll take them anyday!)

Lisa, thanks so much. By the way (and I'm not trying to make a buck here!), but if anyone gets one of my two major books, the biography or the bibliography (I recommend the biography) I'd be happy to sign and inscription. You can arrange to send to me... just send me an email. You can find them either at the Pelican link in the text, or Amazon.com sells them, just do a search for Edward Nudelman
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Linda D. May 21, 2007, 11:20am EDT
Wonderful article and list of resources, Ed. Thank you for writing this!
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Pamela G. May 21, 2007, 11:21am EDT
Ed you are THE MAN! Thanks!
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Haley B. May 21, 2007, 11:24am EDT
Thanks for the informative article, Ed. I do have a few tips from my own experience. The most important thing to remember is that the worst critic is always the person who wrote the piece. Try to publish it even if you believe it is not good enough. You may be surprised. Publishers are not as harsh as yourself and at the worst you may get some valuable feedback on how to improve. Try to write poetry or other works specific to the publisher you are sending to. Think of it as a writing topic or homework. If they specialize in horror, write something dark and moody. Also, do not confine yourself to poetry journals. I have two poems published in non-fiction books and several in regular magazines. Local, cultural magazines are another viable option. They cover the local art scene and are always looking for an article or poem to pair with a piece of art.
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George Corneliussen May 21, 2007, 11:27am EDT
Ed,
I'm currently borderline buried alive in the process of getting Corn Dog ready for a shot at publication. I really appreciate your article. Coming from a "cartoon" angle, most people I've talked to have told me I should try an find a good agent, before I submit my work. Right now that thought is in the back of my mind, since I have a mountain of editing to do before I even send stuff out.
Nonetheless, your article is like a hit off an oxygen tank. Thanks !
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 11:28am EDT
Haley, these are very excellent comments and suggestions. Thanks so much for posting!
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 11:30am EDT
I hear you Cindy! lol
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All done here May 21, 2007, 11:31am EDT
Well written and well recieved.
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Faith H. May 21, 2007, 11:31am EDT
Ed, you have done a great job here. I'm just purely excited to publish my pieces on Gather, I've never considered the real world. Now you have me thinking...oh-oh!
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 11:33am EDT
great, Faith. That's the spirit. Remember... it never hurts to try. And the challenge can be very rewarding and fun. Not all frustration and tedium.
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David D. Gilbaugh May 21, 2007, 11:34am EDT
Edward
Thank you for sharing your personal trials of publication. I had no idea you had such a background. I want to stick my chest out and say I know Ed Nudelman!

I have tried getting published and went through similar results except the end part about geting published. Ha! I think it is due time to give it another shot.

You are terrific, Ed!
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vijay kumar May 21, 2007, 11:38am EDT
Immensely valuable article, Ed. Informative, useful, inspiring.
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Terri K. May 21, 2007, 11:41am EDT
thanks for sharing
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Dan R. May 21, 2007, 11:41am EDT
Thank you for the information here. I have works published in about seven journals of poetry and art. The thing for me is that these are not any that the major publishers look at, even though two boasts of having paying readers of over 200,000 each from around the world, and one has four universities that pay for subscriptions. So this is something I learned you have to look at. It is not the size of their subscription sales, but if the Publishers will look at them as an accepted publication.
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patrick m. May 21, 2007, 11:41am EDT
Excellent, Ed, as always....yet another 10 star! People are going to start thinking thats all I give out, with articles like yours about ;-)

BTW, you've read mine and liked it.....any suggestions which publisher, or kind of publisher, would be appropriate to approach? Here is the link again:

Butterfly in Thy Heart

Ucan just send me email with specifics, if you have the time.

Thanks!

:-)
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Howard B. May 21, 2007, 11:42am EDT
Interesting title. About 30 years ago I began to write a book about people in the field of education at the collegiate level. One chapter was titled, PUBLISH OR PERISH, with the sub title of OR THE RAPE OF THE GRADUATE STUDENT. You would be amazed at how many graduate advisors append their names to publications for which they had minimal or no input. My advisor even had the publisher put his name ahead of mine in the heading. This is a somewhat different concept than your Publish or Perish and I think I prefer yours. At any rate, it is an interesting article and hopefully will encourage some aspiring writers to pursue their dream.
Howard B
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Anita H. May 21, 2007, 11:44am EDT
Excellent article, Ed. I often thought, after college, that a really useful course (I was an English/Writing major) would have been "what to do after you've written it" ("it" being poetry, fiction, non-fiction, whatever). The course could have taken students step by step through the process you explained, and demystified it for us, giving us practice and practical experience; even if nothing got published, we'd have been prepared to deal realistically with rejection! ("Submit, submit, submit... ").
I have only had a couple of things published, mainly in very small, upstart journals, etc. I just took rejection too hard, and crawled back into my shell. Now I have a supportive Gather community, and I'm slowly coming out into the light . I'll read this article many times, and I think it will give me the practical advice to deal with the rejection letters, and a shot of courage to try again. Thanks Ed.
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Anne B. Grote May 21, 2007, 11:52am EDT
Thank you for this great advice, Ed!
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Trish A. May 21, 2007, 11:52am EDT
Ed thank you for this excellent article. This is exactly why I joined Gather. Some of the names on your list are familiar but some aren't so I look forward to learning more about them. Thank you for addressing the reality that a poet's voice may not suit what some publishers are looking for. My answer to that is, look deeper, look more. Find poems similar to yours that have been published and submit yours there.
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Otelia S. May 21, 2007, 11:56am EDT
This will definitely help me in fulfilling a dream. Thanks for your kindness.
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Rebecca Goings May 21, 2007, 12:03pm EDT
Wonderful Ed!! May I give some advice as well? :P

If you're submitting, never never NEVER disregard the publisher's guidelines. If they want the manuscript in 10 point, New Times Roman, double spaced with headers that say book title, author's name and page number, you better do it *that* way. I have had a few publishers over the years and they have all said the same thing. The guidelines are for their ease of reading, and if you do not follow the rules, your manuscript will be chucked in the trash. Without being read. Their logic? If you cannot follow the simple rules of submission, then why would they want to sign you?

Never never NEVER "leave the ending" of your book *out* of your synopsis. Most publishers want a synopsis of your book with the query letter to give them a feel of what happens in the book. They want to know EVERYTHING that happens, even the ending. If you feel like you're "spoiling" the book, well, the blurb is what you use to "hook" readers (the info that goes on the back book cover). Leaving the ending off your 2-page synopsis will just make editors mad, because they can't make an informed decision if your book is what they want to buy. What if the ending totally wasn't plausible with the rest of the book? They need to know. Too many authors do this. Always tell the editor the entire plot. Period.

When submitting, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Have a Plan B, C, D, etc. If Publishing House A rejects you, go to B and C and so on. Your book won't "fit" every publisher. You have to do your homework to find out where they would fit. Consider trying to get an agent. You can query some BIG name publishers with an agent. Not every publisher allows Plain Jane Author to submit directly. I believe Del Rey and Random House, names like those *require* an agent. A lot of authors believe "Agent" to be a four-letter word. But let me tell you, they make life easier. THEY do the shopping around. They argue on your behalf regarding the contract. Because lemme tell ya, a LOT of authors have gotten screwed on that contract; they were so excited to be published, they didn't read the "fine print". Sure, agents take a cut, but it's much easier to break into big New York publishers with an agent than without. And pretty much every single big name author has an agent. It's like actors. They have agents too. It's just the middle man that makes life easier.

Don't stop writing. So you've written a book. Write another one! Keep writing while waiting to hear word. It will make the weeks pass quicker than constantly checking the mailbox to hear word. That way, if manuscript A has been rejected, you have manuscript B to shop around. That's what I did. When I finally did get accepted for publication, I had scads of books written, which is why I have scads of books published. LOL Interested publisher says, "Ooo, you have *more* books?"

READ the genre you're writing. See how other authors do it. Read voraciously. Get a feel of how it's done. Pay attention to more than the plot. Pay attention to point of view, pacing, voice... Not everyone can write a good story. Writing a story has mechanics. You need to know HOW to write a story that will capture people's attention. Give yourself some writing exercises. These really hone your skill. Think of a random scenario and write a 1000 word scene for it. Not an entire book, just a scene. I've written a few full books off those writing exercises. :P

Sorry for making this reply so dang long (I should have just written my own article. LOL) But I thought I would add some more perspective on this article, because Ed is totally "write". Nyuk, nyuk. :P

~~Becka
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Sheila Deeth May 21, 2007, 12:04pm EDT
Thanks for an informative and encouraging article Ed. Just when I'm ready to crawl back into my shell you remind me I really did want to try to get published.
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Debbie G. May 21, 2007, 12:14pm EDT
Ed thank you for this great article, and for all the assistance and encouragement you offer here on Gather. You are appreciated!
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Rico V. May 21, 2007, 12:28pm EDT
Thank you Ed! Extremely practical piece. Gracias!
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Sharon A. May 21, 2007, 12:42pm EDT
Thank you Ed!
Some of us look for all the help we can get!
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 12:43pm EDT
Dan R, said:

"I have works published in about seven journals of poetry and art. The thing for me is that these are not any that the major publishers look at..."

Thanks Dan, and congrats for that achievement. I think, though, it's not really that you're looking for prospective publishers to take note of that, but rather, you're builiding a portfolio and a bio, such that if and when you want to try to come out with your first collected book of poems, you can attract publishers at that point when they see that you have a record of publishing your work.
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Robi Y. May 21, 2007, 12:45pm EDT
Thank you for being a Shepherd of us writers to instruct, and advance us toward the next step. Thank you so much!
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Dolphi D. May 21, 2007, 12:48pm EDT
This is a very resourceful article, Ed. Thanks for all the free tips.
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Joseph Ritz May 21, 2007, 12:49pm EDT
You get a lot more comments than I ever have. I should email group members. That's not why I'm writing. I've published a coup le books myself -- nonfiction-- one was highly praised in The New York Times and other newspapers and a few magazines. It's long out of print, avialable only at QUESTA.com. and then only a few pages are ever bought. My royalies last yeear totaled 98 cents. However, at a book signing of my latest book in the Hudson Valley, a man asked me to sign a copy of the old book which he said cost him $300 on the internet. I wish I had gotten a piece of the action.
That's the way things go for most authors, less than 1% make a living wage. I've supported my family as a journalist. Any articles or books sold are an occasional welcome bonuis.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 12:51pm EDT
Rebecca, thanks so much for gracing this thread with really excellent suggestions. Among the many you bring forward, I would like to further underscore your point about reading the genre you're writing. That is so key, and I only briefly touched on that in the article. I think really important with poetry, because there is a voice and popular speak that not only entails the message, but also the form. We're not saying, write like that or you won't be published. But if you read enough and a wide spectrum of journals, not to mention anthologies and poetry books, you'll begin to have a benchmark and parameters on which to compare your own work. Then the business of shaping and developing your voice really begins. Don't let anyone tell you they've invented their own style. We all copy in one veiled form or another. Nothing wrong with someone saying you sound like Robert Frost... etc. You go from there...
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Jennifer R. May 21, 2007, 1:04pm EDT
I have yet to submit any of my work for publication however I feel it is probably a lot like finding a job. You simply have to get yourself out there as much as possible and see what happens. You will probably get a hundred no's before you will get that one yes.
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Lisa Frost May 21, 2007, 1:23pm EDT
I have always written things and been afraid to put it out there, though many people tell me to do so. THis is very good information. Thanks! Maybe I wll get brave enough to use it someday!
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Desire Hendricks May 21, 2007, 1:26pm EDT
I really enjoyed the article. I'm working on writing poetry again--I've been focusing on writing articles and blogging. Your listing will prove helpful.

I published two chapbooks and a few instructional pieces/reports through Lulu--it's the marketing aspect that can prove difficult, but I decided to self-publish, because I like the control and my poems don't fit the current popular modes.
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Barb P. May 21, 2007, 1:28pm EDT
Not often enough do you find people willing to share information and be a source of guidance - for this I thank you. You have been a tremendous help!
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travis t. May 21, 2007, 1:36pm EDT
none of my work should be deemed able to be published but thakyou for the helpful tips
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femmme f. May 21, 2007, 1:44pm EDT
what about getting a blog morm popular to hopefully get it to a book down the rd?
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Fred Hose May 21, 2007, 1:48pm EDT
Hi Ed
Thank you for your timely advice.
It comes just as I'm about to publish two novels and two poetry bundles. One of these novels is being considered for a movie.
Your information will be most helpful. Thank you again.
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Bhawana 'Gather Proud Mom' May 21, 2007, 1:56pm EDT
impressive article...
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It's Not Me w. May 21, 2007, 1:57pm EDT
Well thank you for all that info!! Congrats on your many accomplishments!!
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Paula B. May 21, 2007, 1:59pm EDT
well done.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 2:01pm EDT
femmme, you raise an important question,... using a blog or blogspace to improve visability and increase your chances of luring a publisher. I think I can say pretty categorically that that strategy just doesn't work. Publisher's are keenly aware of the activity of online sites, but they are much more interested in the content that goes into their journals, versus the possibility of getting visibility by adding a writer who already has some visibility. Of course, there are exceptions, I can think of a couple very "famous" poet blogs, but they are published not because of the blog, but because of their talent in writing.
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Richard Frisbie May 21, 2007, 2:04pm EDT
Nice, Ed - helpful, instructive but not didactic, and a wonderful illustration of your writing ability. Thank you (from a publisher)
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Rob Appell May 21, 2007, 2:06pm EDT
Being new to writing, some good information to learn.
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Susan K. May 21, 2007, 2:07pm EDT
Thank you for the helpful information!
I appreciate your sharing.
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Janet Elaine Smith May 21, 2007, 2:10pm EDT
Fantastic article, Ed. I don't do poetry. Our writers group can attest to that. I admire anyone who can. I have heard that it is much harder to market poetry than other types of writing, but I can't verify that. I do know that I have a marketing column in every issue of Writers Journal and they do publish a bit of poetry, so you might add them to your list of "try-for's." Feel free to use my name; it's not worth that much, but you're welcome to it!
I will have to check out your books on Jessie Willcox Smith. My mother-in-law's name was Jessie (Maria) Smith. I loved the Dick and Jane books when I was in school, many years ago.
The publishing/submitting business is about the goofiest business I've ever seen in my life, but it's a mighty fun one. I think you hit the nail on the head, though, when you said that you have to believe in yourself. Stick to it. You'll make it, and when you do, I guarantee you that it's the best ride you can get on!
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Marge H. May 21, 2007, 2:24pm EDT
Thank you Edward.
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Len Slade May 21, 2007, 2:40pm EDT
Well written
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Ellen M. May 21, 2007, 2:52pm EDT
Thanks a lot of good information!
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Katrina Hall May 21, 2007, 3:02pm EDT
Fantastic compilation of information, Ed!
A word to the wise. After I had published on Gather, I went to Poetry magazine and found they considered online publishing ( as on Gather) to be published and would not accept it. When I do start writing poetry again, I'll remember that and hold off publishing here right away.
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Sonia M. May 21, 2007, 3:05pm EDT
Excellent article Ed!

Although I don't write poetry (or novels) I do write cookbooks.......and the way I write my cookbooks is not just plunking down a recipe on the page, I feel anyone can do that....

I love to write the story behind the recipe....or the annecdote that resulted from trying a recipe.........etc........ so in a way, it is like reading a little novel about the foods I cook...... I took many notes of your points that relate to me and cookbook writing............

Thank you!!!!
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Laurie White May 21, 2007, 3:36pm EDT
Excellent article, Ed, with great advice that will save time for others trying to publish. You have to be persistent, driven and have thick skin to try to get your work published. Congrats on all of your published work and thanks for putting together this very informative article!
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Rick S. May 21, 2007, 3:38pm EDT
Best article on getting published that I have seen so far on Gather. Thanks for providing some content beyond just stating the obvious.
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Patry Francis May 21, 2007, 3:48pm EDT
I first started publishing my poetry in journals back in the eighties, and had a fair amount of success placing my work. Like you, I didn't take rejection too seriously. It felt like a game to me, and I was thrilled with even a casually written "Thanks!" on a rejection slip. I submitted again two or three years ago and found it much more difficult--even with a long list of credits. It may have been me; I clearly wasn't as motivated as I once was, but I do believe the proliferation of MFA programs makes it that much harder. At this point, I'd rather just put them up on my blog, press the "publish" button, and say 'go, little poem and see if you can find a reader or two."

Very helpful article, though, and a nice mix of journals and magazines, including many of my own favorites. Almost makes me feel like getting out the SASEs again.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 3:50pm EDT
Katrina said,

"A word to the wise. After I had published on Gather, I went to Poetry magazine and found they considered online publishing ( as on Gather) to be published and would not accept it. When I do start writing poetry again, I'll remember that and hold off publishing here right away. "

All poetry journals will give a disclaimer that they will not accept submissions if they've appeared anywhere on the web. This is to dissuade mass submissions by bloggers, and completely makes sense. However, I don't know an editor in the world who wouldn't accept a quality poem from a promising poet just because it appeared on a community online site like Gather. Rather, they would more likely simply suggest that you delete the article so it can't be found in a search.

Note, this differs from having a poem accepted into a credible online poetry journal, many of which are extremely competitive and every bit as prestigious as the print journals (see above list).

So the distinction may seem subtle, but it's an important one. I'm a member of an online poetry group of about 20 poets that post their work and are very harsh and critical of each other's submissions. This group is led by a very prominent poet/publisher and is by invitation only. We have many poems that we publish for each other's perusal that get picked up for major journals... IN FACT, one was selected recently for the Pushcart Prize, the single most prestigious award for a poet's poem appearing in an online poetry journal.
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Edward Nudelman May 21, 2007, 3:55pm EDT
Patry, many thanks for those excellent remarks. You said,

"I clearly wasn't as motivated as I once was, but I do believe the proliferation of MFA programs makes it that much harder."

I would agree 100%. The playing field has drastically changed in the last 10 years, really exponentially in the last 5 years. Publishing poetry is not a money making venture! Why do publisher's do it? It's mostly for prestige and avenues into other aspects like printing anthologies, networking, etc. Poetry journal staffs are drastically underpaid, and they have the unenviable job of wading through reams and reams of paper every day... So, the submission have increased logarhythmically, and the editors are getting more and more picky and choosing only very promising writers that may deliver for them in the future....
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M M. May 21, 2007, 4:01pm EDT
Wow. Excellent article, outstanding additional comments.
Suicide is painless, right?
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Kathryn E. May 21, 2007, 4:19pm EDT
Hello Ed. This is very useful information and great links. Much appreciated. Years ago, as a graduate student in English Literature, I was well familiar with the cozy cliquiness of which you speak. I had had enough. I started my own literary magazine on campus and edited it for 3 years before falling into book reviewing for the city newspaper.

I had suspected, along the way, that I was not so much a poet as a poetic prose writer, and abandoned poetry for the time being. That was a long time ago.

Recently, I've come into a voice or a new place and am emboldened by the encouragement from others here and also by my own sense of development.

I will take the plunge into some of this; I will begin to submit. I am over my fear.

i've bookmarked this for the links.
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keith crawford May 21, 2007, 4:21pm EDT
As usual, great article Ed, thanks for the all the helpful tips, finally someone who is willing to give the real story on getting poetry published. I am aware of the vanity printing places like International library of Poetry, it was good to finally see the real online poetry journals. I signed with the New York Literary Agency but I dont know if they were legit, I had to pay to submit my poems to be reviewed and they they tried to tell me that I had to pay for an editor to help me get my poems good enough to be marketed.
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Lisa M. May 21, 2007, 4:24pm EDT
as always, a wonderful piece you have put together for us ed - thanks :)
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Katrina Hall May 21, 2007, 5:07pm EDT
Oh, I forgot to say how I adore Jessie Willcox Smith, and how astonished I was to see your books on Amazon!
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