Ask the Polyamorous Man

No, Tamara, I haven't. Like anybody who isn't in a long-term monogamous relationship with well-established risk factors, my partners and I get tested for STDs regularly and err on the side of using safer practices.

There was one occasion when an ex-girlfriend (but still close friend) of mine had a positive indicator for chlamydia. She immediately called me to let me know what was going on, although this wasn't a positive test result yet. I contacted everybody who needed to know, and scheduled a test for myself. We all tested negative.

I am totally not joking about this:

Why do all the poly people live in Boston?

Do they? I hadn't noticed. In fact, most of my poly friends live in DC/Baltimore, and many of the rest in NYC.

I suspect that if Boston does have more poly people than other major metro areas in the Northeast, it's because Boston has so darn many colleges. It gives the whole city are a young, experimental, energetic feeling.

I'm told there's a strong poly community around here somewhere, although I'm not really hooked into it yet. (Unfortunately, the weekly coffee is at a time I can't really get to from work, even though it's around the corner from me.) That community could help, both in attracting poly people to move to Boston (although that sort of consideration was making me lean strongly toward DC when I was trying to choose between the two), and in helping people to deal with their relationship problems in a healthy way and thus not give up on the whole poly thing as impossible. There's a lot to be said for having people you know you can talk to, both casually and deeply, about your relationships without them dismissing you for your lifestyle.

Based on the definition of polyamorous you gave above, I was once that myself. At one time in my life I had two boyfriends at the same time. They did not know about each other. Each of them was very dear to me, and I truly think I loved them both. But, when I decided to get married, it was to one man, and I have been faithful and committed to him for more than 16 years. Do you think that if you met someone you wanted to marry that you could be monogamous?

Karen,

Oh, darn, now I have to go and revise my definition above. I really like the pithy definition of "consensual non-monogamy", but I thought I needed to be a bit more clear, and I seem to have missed the part where I stress the part about informed consent. Thanks for pointing that out.

In brief, if people aren't informed, then they don't have the opportunity to make informed decisions regarding either their health or the risk they take of getting hurt from the emotional bond they're forming. That's not really fair to anybody.

I'm assuming a bit here. It's possible that you had agreements with each of them that you were free to see other people but that you didn't want to know about those other relationships ("Don't ask; don't tell"). I'm not really a fan of those sorts of agreements, but they do meet the condition of informed consent.

Your question is a good one, and one I've been thinking about quite a bit in the last year. I've come to realize that there are two major components to this whole poly/mono thing. One is what sort of relationship structure you tend to instinctively tend toward. The other is what sort of relationship structure you actually live with.

My instincts are toward polyamory. However, all relationships involve compromise, and there are some things I could theoretically compromise if they were important to my partner. In theory, if I wanted to marry somebody monogamous, and I weren't currently in a serious relationship with anybody else, I could probably make the compromise of living a monogamous lifestyle. At least if it were only about the romantic and sexual aspects for my partner. If they couldn't deal with my loving someone else at the same time as I loved them, with at least a similar level of intensity and closeness, and wanting to spend time with that other person sometimes, there simply wouldn't be room for compromise. What we do is a choice, including how much we pursue relationships and encourage them into certain patterns, but who we love--that we can't control.

Marc, I think it is very true that we do not have control over who we love, but we do have control over whether we stay in a relationship with someone we love who is not treating us right.

It was not that I was sneaking around seeing two guys. At the time, neither one of them wanted a monagmous relationship with anyone. It was also long enough ago that the AIDS/STD issues we take for granted nowadays were not in the news at all. When I think about it now, I know I was taking huge risks at the time. But, I never felt the need to tell the guys about each other. I just thought it was my life and I could do whatever I wanted to do with it.

Karen, ah, I see. That sounds like it fits what I would consider poly (the relationships were known to all participants to be non-monogamous, there was no requirement within either relationship to inform the partner of any others), although it's not the kind of polyamory I practice.

But then, as you say, the world was a different place.

Although it's only partly because of safety concerns that I'm uncomfortable with the sorts of structures where you don't share that kind of information in my own life. More of it is because they way I love involves being very open, and I couldn't bear to have to keep an entire, very important, facet of my life secret from someone I love. Such as someone else that I love. So, not for me.

I'm sorry for the incorrect assumption earlier. I probably should have just asked before getting on the soapbox. There's an enormous difference in poly ethics between their knowing that the relationship wasn't monogamous but not knowing anything about what you were doing outside the relationship and thinking the relationship was monogamous and not knowing anything about what you were doing outside the relationship. The former is maybe a little strange or not exactly how I'd prefer to do it, whereas the latter is cheating.

Is it true that we fear what we cannot comprehend? I'm pretty open-minded actually. I'm in a serious monogamous relationship, but don't want the constraints of marriage, because I feel anythign can happen, and I believe reppressing desires is the worst thing you can do to youself. Yet, I feel sex is more meaningful when there is commitment in the relationship. Although one can argue that sex is fun and exciting when it's a one time deal. I relaly don't see myself doing that. Now if you have a polyamorous relationship with say, two people, maybe three and there is a sense of understanding, love, openness, and commitment, then that's a positive thing. I just fear different emotions raging up like jeaoulousy, anger, sadness, emptiness,and fear. I really worry about STD's since condoms don't protect against all, and there are several you can get which are pretty carry. Women also have it pretty bad, since 80% of women who have sex will get hpv, whch soemtimes lead to cervical cancer. luckiliy, there is a vaccine that protects against the most common and dangerous strands of the virus. Do you think if there were more std vaccines, people would be openlly mroe promiscuous? I'm terribly scared about std's , if you meet a random person and have sex iwth them without nothing their past, you run a great risk. And even if that person tells you their past, how do you know they are even being honest with you. unfortunately some people don't tell you they have an std if they knwo they have one for fear that people wont have sex with them, and sometimes people are unaware they have one. This creates a major dilemma in my mind. This is why I feel its so much healthier, safer not to run that risk and only have sex with people you trust and know well.

Sigriet, thanks for commenting.

I'd say it's definitely true that we fear what we can't comprehend. That's actually a really valuable thought to dealing with issues of jealousy and the like. Jealousy often (definitely not always) is born of fear, and the fear often comes from a lack of knowledge which prevents understanding.

You asked about STDs. Yes, I think there are some people who would be more promiscuous without the STD scare. However, I also thing there are an awful lot of people out there who are highly promiscuous anyway. When it comes to not doing things we want to do because they're unhealthy, I think we humans are pretty bad at resisting temptation.

Personally, I almost exclusively have sex with people I know well and already love and trust. I say almost because there have been a couple of one-night-stands and the like. I'm careful to only engage with lower-risk behavior with people I don't know well, and to always use protection unless I know that I've recently tested clean, as have all my recent partners, and my partner can say the same. Like a lot of poly best-practices, it's just generally a good idea, but becomes even more important when you start bringing more people into the equation.

You asked how you know if somebody's being honest with you. It's simple, you can't. You simply have to evaluate how well you feel you can trust the person, and make a good decision based on that. I tend to err on the side of caution. There's plenty I can do that's a lot of fun that has a relatively low risk of transmitting any diseases, if I have any uncertainty.

Of course, a lot of this is general life-stuff, not polyamory specific.

Nicely done, Marc. I don't really have a question, just comments - hope that's okay.

I am really glad that the conversation here is acknowledging the spectrum of 'loving - intimate - sexual' and our ability to choose various positions along it.

The societal default for dyadic relationships is this weird ownership of partners, with some people drawing those lines in odd places. Like laughing too much when talking to someone at a party. The version of monogamy that excludes half of the human race from possible friendship baffles me.

Time is another important thing. Hmm, maybe I do have a question. How do you balance time, especially during the early infatuation stage when you really want to spend a lot of time with the shiny new person? Are your two partners friends who are happy spending time together with you? Without you? I'm assuming they each have other partners, how does that whole dynamic work?

Some context for the questions - I've got friends in a poly-relationship that looks like this:
H is "technically" bi but identifies as primarily gay
* N is bi, but tends towards other women
* S is a gay man
* H and S have been together for maybe 20 yrs
* H and N got married a few years after H and S got together and had a child a few years after that. They have all lived together since the marriage and raise the child with the three of the as equal parents
* H/S are in a (generally) exclusive relationship with an occasional consensual other man (I think with an agreement that those stayed away from the house)
* N has had a string of multi-year relationships with other women. I don't think any of the have lived with them.
Phew!

In case anyone is reading this and being horrified on behalf of the child, please don't be. She is a happy, healthy, confident, intelligent girl - and she's pubescent, so this is saying something!

Anyway, the dynamic of this relationship has always fascinated me. Partially because it works so well, when so many dyads are just twisted - and I say this as someone in a (non-twisted) dyad.

Everyone in the G/N/S family seems to be having a great life, there are two people with excellent jobs and one with a business, they are involved in their community, they have issues about which they are passionate, they have a wonderful circle of friends and family. I have seen many a dyad that could take lessons.

Do you think the people who can successfully pull off this sort of thing have something in common outside of the poly-ness? What's special that you can do it without people getting crazy?

Again, phew!

There's probably some over-riding theme to this comment, so don't feel that you need to answer specific questions. I'll ask again if I feel like you miss something.

(and now I am off to see what is up on my "ask the feminist" thread - I put an invitation on one of TJ's threads... )

Thanks kitchenMage. I'm pleased with how it's going so far.

Ugh. That ownership thing really drives me nuts. I'll allow that it's not necessarily present in monogamous relationships, and it can also worm its way into poly relationships as well.

You asked about balancing time. That's really difficult. There are a few things we do to make it smoother. Probably the most important is that we're all aware that we're allowed to ask for the things we want and the things we need, and that someone who loves and cares for you will usually come up with a way to fulfill them. (Part of that, of course, is that they're allowed to say no.) That helps us to be pretty self-policing about time, sometimes one of my partners will express that they haven't seen me in what feels like a while and they miss me, and we'll adjust so we spend time together soon. We also all agree that if we don't verbalize that something is bothering us, we can't reasonably expect it to change.

In my particular case, the time thing is probably made easier because only one of my partners is local. So we have a nice reasonable default that when my other partner is visiting, she gets the majority of my time. When she's back at home, we make liberal use of the Internet to remain in touch, and we watch a couple hours of TV together each week, synchronized and chatting. One of those (House) is now typically spent on the sofa with my local partner, with a laptop in my lap. It's not perfect, but it seems to be working out quite nicely thus far.

And, yes, time is especially hardest during the New Relationship Energy (NRE) stage. I think it's mostly a matter of, as the person in the new relationship, making sure both to still allow time for your other lover(s), and making sure to check in with them that things are ok, they're getting enough of your time, this new person you're bringing into their life isn't freaking them out for any reason, etc.

My partners didn't know each other until after I started dating the more recent one (the local one). In fact, due to time and distance issues, we were probably dating almost a month before they were able to meet, although it was fortunate that their meeting was a priority for all of us. I can only speak for what I see: they seem to get along quite well, they unsurprisingly have a lot in common, and on the occasions the three of us have spent time together (and the one the two of them were together without me when they both came to watch a performance of mine), they've seemed to quite enjoy each other's company.

As it happens, neither of them currently has another partner. Well, one has an on-again, off-again thing which is currently off-again. I met the guy; we had a really nice dinner and conversation, it was all very easy.

I think you're on the right track, though. I really feel it's best for everybody to know each other's partners and establish an independent relationship with them: at least friendliness, if not a separate friendship. Those people are a part of your life, too, and you'll be happier if they're not a complete stranger. Especially because if they are a complete stranger, it's easier to get it in your head that they're some perfect being you could never compete with, and why would your lover want to stay with you? That's easier to dispel when they're real.

About your friends...you describe the H+S pairing as generally exclusive. Does that mean H and N are no longer involved? Or is this what I'd describe as a stable open V-shaped triad (S - H - N), where for the most part only one member (N) is regularly involved with people outside of the triad, and there's an understanding (probably to preserve a sense of home and family) that sexual stuff with any other lovers takes place elsewhere? I'm just curious. Either way, it sounds like your friends have a really healthy family situation going. I can only hope that my own relationships will continue to be as healthy, and that perhaps, one day, should I be more inclined to "settle down" in the physical sense, I can form a similarly healthy home.

Self-awareness, honesty, openness, integrity. I won't claim that poly people are more possessing of these than other people (that would be a ridiculous claim). I will say that they're exceptionally important in creating a situation in which this sort of network of healthy relationships can grow and thrive. And part of it is dealing with things in a healthy way when people do get crazy, because, really, we can't control our emotions, just our actions. That line works on the jealousy/rage/depression/etc. side of things just as much as any other.

Hmmm...I think I might have hit all your specific questions after all.

(I'll definitely come check out your thread. I may have some questions.)

Marc, thanks for the long answer.

H and N are no longer involved physically as far as I know. They each seem to be pretty exclusively gay in practice and I am not sure if there would have been any intimate contact had they not wanted a child to begins with.

Marc - I lived that lifestyle during my college years and way into my 30's. Living in London, Switzerland and Germany made it all the more a liberating experience but, I never knew that this was what was called polyamourous! ;o

Thanks for enlightening me.