Creation, Evolution, and the Bible.... What do you believe?

Oops. I meant to put this in the article.
For those of you who are interested in discussion on this topic and would like to join my group, it is called the Creation Debate Forum.
Thanks!

As a Christian I believe in God's creation and that evolution is just that a teory. Both are a matter of faith, but when you look at the intricacies of just a single cell you have to believe that it did not just happen by accident. And that is just a single cell not to mention the universe as a whole.

your poor poor children.. so you think t-rex has big meat eating teeth to munch on coconuts and that uhhhh, people rode them like lil ponies?

Mitch,
Oh my word. Not introducing religious doctrine into our public schools. Having taught in public schools for many years, I agree. Let's keep God out, so there is more room for bombs, drugs, rapes, setting one another on fire. These are just a few things i've witnessed. I pulled my daughter out after the last death threath but let's worry about prayer and God. Please read my article "To all Pacifists." Then, you will see what the other people in the world are teaching their children.

I believe in Creationism, but at te same time you cannot deny the evolution of species over time. The world adapts to its surroundings and changes accordingly, but I believe it is all part of Gods design. People, animals, we all adapt, look at our skin colors and the multitude of species. But as far as the theory of evolution goes...no way...That takes more blind faith than believing in a creator...

Evolution or natural selection is a part of Creation itself. Many species were created with the design that they could adapt to changing environments (if you designed an automobile, rollup and down windows would be appropriate in the design, as well as 4-WD, automatic/manual shift, etc y'know options that would fit applications....) Evolutionist are aware of that part of the miracle.
The whole big bang to natural selection array of theories that exclude intelligent design are doing the same, they are examining a portion of the miracle as the whole, rather as just one facet, that is why these theories are presented without a foundation or conclusion.
The way the universe was created according to the Hebrew scriptures follows the design that evolutionists embrace with the plants being followed by the animals, the universe coming first and the stages of the planets being formed with man being created last. Thousands of years before man's science could decipher these facts.
All mankind's decendants have a story of the Great Flood. Even native americans living around the grand canyon tell of the worlwide flood that happened, and after, the creator made a big whole to let the water out and the earth dry (the grand canyon itself). Fossil records turn up all over the globe recording massive amounts of animals that did not hang out with each other huddled together in massive drownings.
There are constantly new species of animals being "re-discovered", having been recorded by scientists and accepted as "fact" to have become extinct hundreds of millions of years ago only to be caught up today in some fisherman's net.

A few days ago a new documentery explored the fact that they "discovered" that the earth and the moon did not form out of the same "big bang" glob as peviously taught, but according to lunar rocks, the earth and the moon have an entirely different array of elements making up the actual mass. Scientists new theory is that the moon was originally another planet that "barely" collided with the earth and then settled in to a new orbit around it. (People actually get paid to come up with this).
We were taught coming up that the whole universe was formed by the big bang theory, that all matter in the universe collected into one mathematical point (due to the immense amount of gravity it placed upon itself) and then exploded back out again, forming the universe and eventually all creation, and that this process keeps happening over and over forever.
Yet out of all of this chaos things exploded and crashed and melded until we have the universe and all life on planet earth today. If that were the case, when we tested the atom bomb, new species should have appeared, everytime there is a volcano flowers that can survive in the lava should grow. Everytime there is a fatal carcrash butterflies should form that have never lived before and fly out of the wreckage. But that doesn't happen, why?
If the big bang and everything related were true, if all of these things came about by a series of infinite, precisely timed "accidents" and that process continues indefinately, then why doesn't it happen now all around us, since it happens to everything from galaxies to atoms.
On the other hand, if Creationism is true, wouldn't we see evidence of that from day to day, all around us?
We do.

Kristen, I'm going to politely bow out of your invite to the forum even though we are good friends. I do not enjoy arguing, and as you can see...you've opened a can of worms with this topic! I do lean toward evolution not being a separate process from God and Creationism but rather as to its being a part of Creationism as a whole - whether that is true or not I hope to find out when I get to heaven some day :) I think it will be very freeing to no longer have to speculate...

Wow, Mitch. What part of the Constitution says that religion should not be taught in school? Separation of Church and State? With all due respect, you need to brush up on YOUR history. This does not mean what you think it means. Separation of Church and State means that any religion does not govern the people and the government. It means that the Church of England does not dictate the government. It does not mean that the word 'God' cannot be mentioned in any public government arena.

I personally think that, while I believe with my entire being that God created this world with a wave of His hand, Creationism should only be taught in school if evolution is taught. It should be either both or none. Evolution, after all, is just a theory, as most will argue the same about Creationism. What I do think should be taught is a world religion class. I think it should be taught on historical grounds for the purpose of educating high schoolers about the different beliefs and cultures of not just those around the world, but of those living next door to them. We have become such an ignorant people that we don't know anything about people groups who are not exactly as 'American' as we are. I am technically a Christian (I follow Jesus, but I am not fond of that term because of the stereotypes others have of Christians) and I do not believe Islam is spiritually accurate, but I want to know about their beliefs and culture so I can communicate better with them. So I can not judge them based on what I see on the news. I think this is incredibly important, especially today because of foreign affairs. The sooner we can get people away from ignorance, particularly ignorance about other people's religions, the better we will be as a person, country, and world.

I'd like to bring an atheist point of view into this article.
Obviously, I do not believe in god, nor do i endorse creation and intelligent design.

Evolution, as stated by those in this article who even care about it, is a process where evn the most simple single cell organisms evolved into modern day complex organisms through millions of events and changes. Events like the extinction of the dinosaurs in the late Cretaceous period, and multiple other cataclysmic events and climactic changes, none of which had anything to do with god or any deity! (Even though evolution is a theory, so are a lot of other things used in science, but the good theories all seem to be true.)

Im sorry to all who believe in it, but creationism is just ridiculous in my opinion. Saying that EVERYTHING was created out of NOTHING is complete bubcus. You can't say that all matter was instantly created, when matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Intelligent design is just evolution with a god stuck in it, it is definitley a new version of creationism used to counter the modern theory of evolution.

Finnally, Bill F., what the heck are you talking about! Everyone knows why butterflies don't pop up out of nuclear weapon detonations or car crashes. Why, butterflies are the result of EVOLUTION over periods of thousands if not millions of years! It is also easier to see results on a smaller scale than it is on a large scale. For example: if you move a vase you see the direct sight of its displacement, if you blow up a building (demolition of course) you may not see the little fracture you cause, by accident, in a sewer pipe.

Justin, actually, the pinnacle moments of evolution are accepted to have "Jumped", as the fossil records do not contribute to the gradual morphing of one species to the other, contrary to the cartoon most of us are shown, where the fish fins slowly and gradually stretch out into legs.
Wings that contribute to flight, mammary glands that produce milk, why even the jump from single cell to multi-celled organisms or the initial burst of life from the theory that a lightning burst hit a pool of just right primordial soup are all thoughts that require more imagination than butterflies springing from a car accident where life and organic material already occour.
As for your idea that everything was created by nothing, where did the matter in the universe come from in the first place? Evoluton has no answer, other than to say it was there already.

Actually there is another scripture in the bible that reflects that the Creator made everything out of the abundance of his energy. Hmmmmm energy. Matter from energy, thousands of years before Einstein "discovered"
E=mc2

I'm both an evolutionist and a Russian Orthodox Christian. :-) Just like I suggested earlier commenting on another article, the first chapters of Genesis do hold a profound theological statement, but they have nothing to do with science/religion debate at all. Their very function in the narrative was quite different. Plus, they were written in the society whose perception of Earth, humanity and their place in the Universe was quite different from our own. So different that we can't even understand their language - I mean not the literal meaning of the words, of course, but what they represented in this particular historical setting.

As for "theory of evolution hasn't been proven" argument... dear friends, haven't you noticed that it is just what we Russians call "put your carriage ahead of your horse"? :-) What is a scientific theory, anyway?... First, there are firmly established FACTS which need to be explained within the framework of a larger scheme. And, second, a theory appears to satisfy this need. A theory - if it is a good theory, that is - shouldn't contradict these facts. It could be refined or expanded or whatever else with the appearance of the new data and new methods of research, but so long as this theory meets the aforesaid requirements, it remains valid.

Blessings - S.

I used to believe that creation and evolution were not mutually exclusive. Why would they need to be? If God is who we say he is, he doesn't have to conform to our ideas of how it happened.

I recently took a course which included this topic. The Catholic Church's official position on this is that the creation story is a myth which the Israelites in Babylonian captivity compiled after realizing that they were the only ones without a creation myth.

In any case, I don't think it makes a difference. We are here, so let's get to the important stuff. Feed the poor, other social justice, etc.

Wow. Sorry to be so late in getting back to the conversation. I was able to check in a couple of times just to see if there was any response, but didn't have time to actually read them all and reply.
Somehow I'm not surprised that I "opened a can of worms" as Suzanne said.... I have been known to whenever I mention this topic. (That's ok if you want to gracefully bow out, Suz, there are plenty of other topics I would do the same thing about, lol) However, since I believe that a person's belief in where we come from and what our purpose is here affects nearly every aspect of their life, I choose to stand firm on the importance of this topic. It is a huge factor in how we decide what IS important and how we treat others in this life.
I'm doing some research on some of the subjects so interestingly brought up, just so I have my facts straight before posting anything just yet.

Please remember to keep your comments respectful. Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them stupid or uneducated.

Thank you all for your comments and input, whether you agree or disagree. :)

As a Christian with a scientific background, I do not see where the tales told in Genesis and the Theory of Evolution are mutually exclusive. The first and last books of the Christian Bible are almost 100% allegory. While many take a literal interpretation of the work of John the Revelator (Megido was a favorite battleground in the Middle East) and await the "rapture" (a concept only invented in the 1830's), and also believe that everything as we know it today sprang up in 7 24-hour rotations of this ball of mud. The Babylonians, Israelites, Greeks, Sumarians, etc., were exceptionally good at allegory, and I have a very difficult time taking a literal anything from the literature of the time.

Well said, Walker.

Nobody knows what happens when you die
Nobody knows what happens when you die
Believe what you want
It doesn't mean you're right
That is a fact of life.

From King Crimson on their latest release, "The Power To Believe"

TO EARTH
YOU ARE HEREBY GIVEN NOTICE THAT YOUR PLANET (if you want glorify it with that description) WILL BE BULLDOZED AT THE COMPLETION OF ONE ROTATION. (We understand you would refer to this as "one day") THIS SPACE MUST BE CLEARED TO MAKE WAY FOR THE EXTENSION OF THE NEW INTERGALACTIC SUPERHIGHWAY.

(Roughly and rudely inspired by Douglas Adams' "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".)

In other words, do you think it matters to the galaxy, or the universe, or all the life or all the gods that may be in it, what you think? Don't you think you're being a bit premature to assume that busy busy God, presently engaged in managing matters vastly more important than what to do with the poor humans, even has time to consider your wishful thinking on this putrid-smelling, polluted little speck?

Here's another question related to evolution: Why in heaven's name would you ever think that a being as all-powerful as God would allow himself to be confined in a human-type form, when it is clearly very inferior on many levels, even compared to the rest of the life on your insignificant dust-particle of a planet? And part B of the question: How could you be so arrogant as to believe that having assumed this form, quite similar in design to that of a monkey, that God chose, of his own free will, in face of all the evidence that he already knows, bad back, skinny legs, pot belly, indigestion, coke habit, cancer and all, disease-riddled and self-destructive though you may be, weak, fragile, quick to anger, of woefully limited intelligence, prone to mass-violence, and demonstrably not in control of your reproductive urges, that God-amighty chose to design a whole bunch of beings like this and infest this planet with them? That sounds like God is either "just testing you" or he's just using you for experimental purposes. Do you really fancy yourselves the epitomy of life-form design? That's what it says in your book.

Just because you believe in it doesn't make it evidence.

Ok, Kristen im joining this conversation, and I have read all these comments..and you have opened a can of worms.
and as once being an atheist...and now a christian. i have seen both sides of this.
Evolution...to me now is just ridiculous, and I have been talking to a friend who says we came from alien humaroids, Ok now thats just crazy-God can make something out of nothing.
And to follow up on this comment from Rick McGirr...that is so right, as I was saying my friend who I talk to a lot, who said we came from aliens-just because we have faith in something doesnt mean it is real.
Ok I use to believe all that other stuff on the other side of the fence between christianity, and evil...well its not true, after I was shown christianity's side of the story..i started questioning all of this, and evolution has no proof.
I know we didnt come from monkeys or alien humaroids, I mean get real.
And I believe that christianity should be in the schools, because then maybe their would be less rape, and shootings, and drugs, and all this other horrible stuff.

"I know we didnt come from monkeys or alien humaroids"

First, dear Leslie, "apes" would certainly be more appropriate here than "monkeys". It's obvious even for me, whose native language is not English. Second, the evolution theory never even claimed that we COME from apes. It claims that both apes and humans had a common ancestor - what, with our modern facilities, analyzis of DNA and such, could be considered a proven fact and not the matter of belief. Please, go to the nearest library for further details. And, third, regarding your latest point, one of my closest friends once said, "If you want for your child to develop a strong antipathy for something, just put it into the school program". :-) It was a half-joke, to be sure, but it certainly has a cernel of truth in it. Just try to explain, for example, why Stalin, a hard-core atheist notorious for his cruelty, spent his childhood years in a seminary?... You can believe in what you want, but please remember that the results could - and probably would be - not the ones you expected... that's what our history and my whole life experience tell me.

Blessings - Sveta

Did we know that sea aquirts(the most primitive chordates,animals with backbones) have 1 chambered hearts. Fish have 2 chambered hearts. Amphibians and reptiles have 3 chambered hearts. Mammals and birds have...well, you know.

Did we know that humans are more closely related to chimps and bonobos than gorrillas are to chimps and bonobos. Read that again.
It doesnt take a big difference in dna(genotype) to make a big difference in appearance(phenotype). One of the differences in human and chimp dna affects the rate of maturation. Human maturation is extended way past when a chimps brain stops growing. That small change in the dna can have huge consequenses. Scientists often refer to humans as immature chimps. Btw, a infant chimp and an infant human have striking similiarities.Go ahead, go find a photo of infant chimps.

" but when you look at the intricacies of just a single cell you have to believe that it did not just happen by accident."

Thats the beauty of natural phenomena, Its existence is not contingent on whether or not some guy on the internet understands it.

" I have been talking to a friend who says we came from alien humaroids, Ok now thats just crazy-God can make something out of nothing."

Where I come from thats called irony.

Hi all,

As a Christian I do believe in a creator of all things, God. However even before my life changed when I came to faith in Jesus Christ, I knew their was a God who created all things. I didnt know him then, but do now. I grew up with evolution in school but never bought into the new faith based education in public schools. They threw out one believe system for another in my oppinion.

There is one thing I recall that Evolution and Creation Theories have in common. Which is that the universe had a beginning. Whether it was the big bang or God, it had a beginning. The similarity ends here.

Everything wasn't always around. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says everything is winding down. Hence, something that is winding down, coming to an end one day, had a beginning. We are born only to die one day, ten out of ten people die. Every created thing has an end. This made me think of my mortality, my immorality for 25 years, and if there was a God who is good and just, then I am in trouble on judgment day. I have broken all 10 Commandments listed in Exodus 20 and my conscious condemned me after looking into the mirror of God's law. However years later I heard God wasnt willing for anyone to perish but come to repentance. That Jesus paid my fine fo sin on a cross 2k yrs ago. I broke God's laws, yet Jesus paid my fine. Soon after I turned from my sinful life to Christ and asked for forgiveness. My life hasnt been the same since.

I could list many reasons why I know and believe Evolution is untrue, or the enormous amount of evidence for intelligent design, which swade Anthony Flew, a once popular atheist apologist, to now become a theist. He said on a radio talk show, (paraphrased) "the evidence for creation is just to strong of a case to argue against now."

However my conversion, a changed heart, is also great proof for the validity of the Christian faith. How so? For 25yrs of my life, I lived a godless life. Sometimes life seemed hopeless, meaningless (like evolution teaches, we came into existance by accident, therefore my life, your life, was an accident with no purpose in mind), and empty. By secular American standards life was good. But life wasn't good! It wasn't until I came to the realization that God did exist, and he wasnt the god I had imagined in my own mind for years, I had commited idolatry. But in June of 1999 I heard the gospel of Jesus and something overwelming happened within me that I cant fully explain, but i now know. God had given me faith to believe. Since then my desire to sin has been swapped with a desire for righteousness, to do whats right.
This was and is more then being religious, because I experienced that. Being religious only seems to change the outside of the cup, so to speak. Like the Pharisees of Jesus' time whom Jesus called white washed tombs, outside they are clean but inside they were full of dead mens bones. This metaphor speaks volume because anyone can try to conform to the 10 Commandments outwardly, but inside their desire to do evil is still present and they cant stop themselves because it takes something greater than themselves to change. This is not just something I believe, but have experienced. Oh and by the way this theory unlike evolution can be demonstrated and is reproducable with people all over the world who call on the name of the Lord Jesus.

Thanx for your time.

Robin

"I could list many reasons why I know and believe Evolution is untrue, or the enormous amount of evidence for intelligent design,"

do it then

btw your 2nd law interpretation is wrong. the earth is not strictly a closed system but rather an open-dissipative system. we get lots of energy input by the sun. the sun will burn out eventually however and thats when your "winding down" or entropy will occur and life goes bye-bye.
so do it already

God/not-God are axioms, not theories. Just as is 1+1=2. Neither can be tested exhaustively and finitely to prove veracity. On either accepts or rejects an axiom.

Creation/evoltion derives from the first axioms and, as hypothesis testing in either case is also impossible neither will ever be anything more within the 4-dimensional universe.

Given the above, neither should be taught outside of college classes - limit the indoctrination to facts only, please!

I dont understand, by your logic we shouldnt teach 1+1=2 either?

"as hypothesis testing in either case is also impossible"-thats just not true,check out my tictaalik article.

"As for your idea that everything was created by nothing, where did the matter in the universe come from in the first place? Evoluton has no answer, other than to say it was there already."

As a creationist, what's your answer to that question? Where did god come from?

Joseph,

I'm doing it, here are a few web links to check out,

These weblinks have a lot of selections, from the fossil record, mutations, living fossils, Geology and a lot, lot lot more. If you are interested please look through so we can talk further, if you'd like.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

http://www.carm.org/evolution.htm

The history of the teaching of human female inferiority in Darwinism http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i1/females.asp

The Second Law of Thermodynamics
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/370.asp


Robin

"we have all sinned and fall short of God's glory" Romans 3:23
" The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

Aw come on, your hanging your hat on "answers in genisis.com". ok, here goes...

"the open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won't make you more complex—the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sun's undirected energy will cause mutations. (Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed."

raw energy can generate complex information when that raw energy is harnessed by chloroplasts and converted to not-so-raw-energy which is used to "build" complex molecules.you have been misled.

It is "undirected energy" only in the sense that its going everywhere. All you need to give that enegy a little direction is some chemical that can harness it, like say chloropyhll.

"the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy"

well duh, this is so dishonest. its a debate trick. say something that is obviously true but has no bearing on your arguement. One of my six grade students would reply: "thats mad dishonest, if that wernt true then nobody in the world would starve to death. all they would have to do for dinner is just lie down naked in the sun. Why doesnt the non-scientist thats writing this crap and misleading all those people tell them that we do have mechnisms for harnessing glucose. That glucose is the product of raw solar energy. That answers in genesis site is mad misleading" I would like to add to my students commentary that we are consumers and not producers. We leave the producing to the plants. You were mad misled.

btw, that mechnism we use for releasing the energy from glucose(respiration in the mitochondria) is the same mechnism used by plants,animals(including us), most bacteria, protists,fungi,etc.The common genes that code for the mitochondria is mad evidence for a common ancestor.

We do harness raw solar energy to make vitamin D.

thats true john. there is actually a theory that light skin evolved as climate got cooler and humans had to start wearing other animals fur. Being covered up to keep warm meant that less skin was exposed and less vitamin D was produced. The reduction in concentration of melanin allowed for faster vitamin D production on less exposed skin. Lack of vitamin D is definatly an environmental selector as it results in rickets in young people.Thats why the government adds vitamin D to americas milk supply(since modern kids are always indoors). Rickets is nonexistent in this country since we started doing that. See, the government isnt so bad after all.

I just read the other link about "female inferiority". Come on, are you citing this as evidence that evolution is not true and creationism is correct. Some weird tangent from 1875? First of all, it gives no evidence that he(darwin) felt or taught this. The author claims it but cites no evidence. The best he can do is use some quote out of context and darwin doesnt even use the word "inferior". He still puts that word in the title. dishonest.

Here is my thought on the evolution of the CD.

Billions of years ago there was nothing. But soon after that there was something, then an enormous explosion. Even though explosions can be tested and reproduced to show destruction, but lets say for a minute this was the one explosion that created something. The groundwork had been laid out and there was now the founding materials and information for what would become the CD.
After millions of years of trial and error, somehow simple materials evolved into more complex matierals. Also the simple information became complex information. We now know today the evolution of the CD! It once was the big sized record, then progressed to the 8 Track according to fossil records, then it evolved into the more complex cassette, and finally came the CD.

Seriously though, there is a huge problem with evolution. One is in the silly story above, none life produces life? simply celled organisms produce complex ones? There is no plausible answer apart from a creator. Look at this story for a moment because in essense this is what evolution teaches. A blank CD with no information on it is useless. However the information (lets say music) on the CD makes it useful. The information on the CD and the materials of the CD together make it useful. However how can the simple CD with music on it change, evolve, into something greater, smarter, better, and grow (maybe into a CD player filled with CD's)? What information does it contain that would enable it to do that while its just simple materials and simple information? There needs to be information in addition to the simple CD (material and information) which the simple CD doesnt contain. How does the CD even know it needs to evolve? Even if it did, how does it know how to evolve? And if it knows how to evolve does it have enough information, materials and the ability to?

Thank you for reading,

Robin

"the fool has said in his heart "there is no God" Psalm 53:1

my head is spinning. look, if that "line of evidence" is convincing anyone out there then ill try and read it again otherwise give me something else.

"thats the weirdest arguement against evolution ive ever heard"-the uncommenting observer

robin, you sent me to some links in support of your arguement and i went and commented on them.what about my response?doesnt it seem like a lot of creationists on that site dont give the whole story, or tell half-truths or misrepresent the facts or misrepresent the principles of evolution,or tell outright lies.

"nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution"mayr 154855:265464

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvox

The coordiantion of a bunch of CDs into something more, to use your metaphor. The volvox is an example of simple orgainisms becoming a more complex one.

volvox is cool

i thought you'd like that joeseph.

Svetlana....i am so sorry I disagree.
Maybe what you believe isnt what your children are going to believe....it is their dicision...u can shove any book you want under their nose......but they have a choice wether or not to believe it.
&& i believe God created us & anything else is a bunch of bologna....why DOSNT EVERYONE JUST GO OPEN A BIBLE!!!! ....its a book! :)
God Bless everyone :)

everyone is talking about books with the evolution theory && talking about showing books to their kids on any subject.
Well, why dont you show them & Bible....that is a book with the real story of creation in...but hey whatever believe what you want....but as for me I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST! :)