Teachers and Education Politics

Well it certainly would be nice if we could afford to devote more resources to educating our kids, wouldn't it? But, of course, our priorities lie elsewhere. We have to spend thousands of billions of dollars to bring the blessings of liberty to the poor oppressed people of Iraq, don't you know? Sorry to have to say so, but we just can't do it all.

Purple thumbs don't grow on trees. Right?

All those flag-draped coffins don't come cheap, either.

I work in the education system. I home-school my daughter because 4 out of 7 teachers are not qualified in my book to teach an ant. Three will most likely be cut in the latest budget ax, but the worst one, a math teacher, continues to pursue her agenda without the slightest regard for her student's failures. She is tenured.

Teaching is not a highly paid job. Much attention is paid to administration skills, but very little is looked at in regard to observation of their classrooms and their overall success rate. I have been told that a great teacher constantly thinks on their feet; since each student and each class is unique, their teaching style must constantly undergo self-evaluation and revision. There are many teachers that do this, but there are also many that don't.

If we truly value our future, we will put a greater value on teachers who are successful at their positions, not just "tight" with the administration and superintendent. My salary after obtaining my certification will pale in comparison to most other jobs; this is reflected in the number of potential and solid candidates who are choosing to teach. There should be some feeling of job security but this must not come at the expense of keeping those who are failing out of the loop.

We are so consumed with meeting "standards" that we lose sight of the true objection of education. Teachers worried about their funding cram information into students while losing their ability to teach. Lost in the fray are the students.

Our public school system is overburdened by competition for funding, high administration costs, and meeting testing requirements. While testing is an important tool in assisting teachers to gear their lesson plans for each student, it does not always present an accurate picture of a school's ability to teach. When comparing American scores with other countries it should be noted that America tests all their students, while many other countries only test students whose grades reflect their successful entry into post-high school education. This makes us look "less prepared" than other nations, but is not entirely accurate in doing so.

Education should be our highest priority and investment in it must not take a backseat. Our children are the only way we will remain a viable democracy, retain a positive economic standing and promote our future. If we fail them, we fail America.

You have very interesting points, Genine. There was a report out today on the persisting achievement gap between black and white students in the U.S. You seem critical of the stress on standards to determine a school's or student's success, so I'm really interested on your take on the achievement gap. I just posted a discussion on the topic, and if you'd like to comment and have time, please do! Here's a link. Thanks so much!

Out of everything mentioned in this conversation, a couple of things are left out:
Besides teachers, we need to hold school administrators more accountable - Faculty is always more effective with better administrative support.

Parents need to be more involved and understanding - Teachers cannot undo any damage or distraction caused by long hours of pm TV; short hours of night sleep.

It's been proven, the more TV a kid is exposed to the less focued s/he can be in a class room. If you don't sleep well, you'll lack focus.

This is such a dynamic, truly challenging issue. My first thought upon listening to the program today was - how can anyone be surprised by a perceived/ and or real lack of teacher proficiency when teachers are/have been educated through the same disfunctional education process we're discussing? They don not drop into schools, omnicient, from some utopian system. I do not believe any amount of additional money spent will be the origin of necessary change in our national public school system until some basic social issues are recognized, respected and contended with in real ways. First and foremost among these being parental involvement. Secondly, would be restoring general respect for education for education's sake. Thirdly, restoring authority to educators for educational policy - by what credential does George Bush impose the outrageous No Child Left Behind mandate upon this nation's schools? For decades now, the school systems have reeled back and forth betweeen politically motivated ideological shifts in curriculum, often before enough time has passed to see the results of the previous sweeping change in policy. It was not a frivilous notion, at the time of this country's founding, that quality, free public education is required to maintain a strong democratic government. Why we have abadoned that principle is the real question that needs to be answered before the next great fix in education can happen. Why is it ok for wealthy people to have access to well-rounded programs for their children? Why are the arts, classical languages and civics unimportant subjects for regular public school children? When will parents stop expecting teachers and schools to do the job of parenting their children? Until parents respect and support the teachers and schools and stop trying to get away with anything and everything on behalf of their childrens' bad habits, nothing will change in public schools. This is a core issue for our society. The deterioration of our public schools has been allowed to happen in our collective, recent history and until everyone buys into demanding change, it will just get worse. Graduates of these public schools are in every arena of our society, maybe that's why there's a dirth in originality, creativity, respect, competency - you name it.

Hey, Christen. Interesting point you make about the far-reaching effects into all areas of society when education is poor, and the inequality between the rich and poor in terms of education. Related, there is a report out today about the persisting achievement gap between black and white students, and I just fired up a discussion about that. I think your insights would really add a lot to that discussion--if you'd like to comment and you have time, please do! Here's a link. Thanks so much!

brainy teacher

Learning is a biological process and teaching should be a pedagogical reaction to it. Neuronal-plasticity in the classroom (BBL-brain-based learning) is the revolution and the answer to the 'teacher problem'. We must also consider the principals, the parents and the students. I graduated from teachers college in New York and studied and hence accepted, neuronal plasticity as my 'philosophy of teaching'. The problem first is with administrative types in various districts that remain cogs in a system that has its own momentum, therefore remaining monumentally detached from the classroom. The teachers are not learning about neuronal-plasticity and how it can solve every problem in the classroom that teachers face from behavioural to pedagogical. I have had enormous success as a teacher in classrooms both inner-city and suburban elite schools, with the students. I emphasize students because teachers feel threaten by me and what I bring to the classroom, when in reality, all I want to do is teach. I don't want accolades or awards, and to 'win people over' to BBL (brain-based learning) I just want to teach.
The overhall in education must run parallel to the developments in cognitive science and biology. How we learn is a biological process of neuronal development expressed with dendritic growth (Rita Smilkstein, Eric Kandel). The plasticity of the brain can be applied to curriculum. I have students that demand I be their teacher, they come into my class just to be in the environment.
The greatest computer in the classroom is a parallel processor, approximately 3lbs, and very wireless; our brains. Neuronal plasticity is more important in the classroom than any computer or compensating power-point presentation.
I believe that neuronal plasticity is the answer to all the problems in education.

Frank Greco

Thank you Peter H from Canada! This is Ruth from Hamilton and I wish I could have had the floor for the whole hour! I am so sick of these people who have no idea what it is to be in the classroom deciding for the rest of us what the "cure" will be. Mr. Broad and Mr. Kane can get back to me when they spend a year teaching in a public school.
I wish I could have told the story of the kindergarten teacher who was the guest lecturer in a graduate education course I once took. She works in a small eastern Massachusetts city that is fraught with all of the social ills plaguing our society. She told us that she can only teach on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, because on Fridays she has to hold these little kids in her lap while they cry with fear about what is going to happen to them on the weekend. And on Mondays she has to hold them while they cry about what DID happen to them on the weekend. How, exactly, do you think those kids will do on standardized tests? Mr. Kane talked a lot about quality teaching, yet his only instrument to measure what that is is a standardized test score? How would he measure this particular kindergarten teacher?
And by the way, did the state of Massachusetts really have to spend tens of millions of dollars to learn that students in Lynn or Lawrence or Boston get lower scores on a standardized test than the students in Concord or Lexington? In Hamilton, we have lost foreign language in the middle school, valuable elective courses are gone, and there is a weird hybrid schedule in the high school as they try to stretch a decimated program over the time they still have to fill. My son has his major classes only three times a week. I will have to pay hundreds of dollars to have him involved in sports. Yet none of this matters, because we get really good MCAS results!! Cut some more, because the scores will stay high! Why? Because scores measure what goes on at home, and they measure schools only insofar as they reflect their communities.

Here's my response to Mr. Kane's comments about class size. Hamilton-Wenham's MCAS scores are higher than expected, even given the socio-economic advantages the kids here have. An amazing percentage of the 10th graders score in the top category on MCAS. Why? English teachers have traditionally had very small classes (18-20) This has been deliberately done because it allows them to conduct individual conferences with students on their writing. The students then go make the suggested edits, then have another conference. Imagine that. Could that possibly have an impact on those high scores? Of course, that's all about to end, because we will soon lose 20-30 teaching positions in the district and class sizes will go way up. This is because of yet another round of funding cuts to education in Massachusetts. Here's an idea. Take the money spent on MCAS and restore the thousands of teaching positions that have been lost in this state since 2003.

Ruth R.

This is an enormous topic of great importance to our nation. The show included some interesting insights and much provocative discussion, but there was so much ill-informed comment that it's hard to know where to begin. Here are some brief, important observations.
No teacher can learn FOR any student. There is substantial danger in judging teachers on the basis of testing student performance, particularly when the tests are such poor indicators of learning, and are frequently used for purposes for which they were not intended.
The same is true for motivation. Motivation cannot be imposed from the outside. Artificial incentives may result in increased effort, but not internalized interest.
Our culture is enormously important. As Coleman showed in the 1960's, parents (SES) and peers (the climate of buy-in that kids have for school) are the only consistent, significant predictors of student achievement. Schools are often perceived by students as places that don't care about them and that are out of touch with their lives. While students don't know enough to dictate the curriculum, shutting them out of the dialogue encourages them to disengage. That disengagement is one of the largest hurdles to achieving school improvement.
Holding teachers accountable is a legitimate goal. NCLB is a remarkably inept effort at doing so. (It's goal was primarily political rather than educational, reflecting the authors' bias that schools and teachers are problems rather than assets.) It makes no sense to hold teachers accountable for things over which they have no control.
Good evaluation systems for students must involve authentic assessment of student products and students' growing understandings of the topics studied. Good evaluation of teachers must involve observation of teaching, and dialog about intentions, understanding, relations with students and parents, etc.
We have substantial disagreement about the purposes of schooling. An excellent resource to assist in considering these purposes is Alfie Kohn's fine book, The Schools our Children Deserve. For quick information, the two appendices are recommended: "The hard evidence" clears up misleading claims about research evidence on school effectiveness; and "What to look for in a classroom," a visitor's guide to good signs in schools and indicators that may cause concern.
The suggestion that too much money is going into pre-service education and not enough into in-service is only partially correct. Teachers do need support that they rarely receive while they are teaching. Faculty development should be given a much larger investment. But teachers get precious little support while preparing to teach. Huge numbers of teachers have 20 plus years of college loans to pay back from salaries that are marginal compared to earnings they could make in other professions.
Very large numbers of teachers leave teaching within 5 years. Reasons include an unsupportive work environment with high demands and little assistance, low pay, lack of respect, enormous workloads; uncooperative, dysfunctional, detached, and/or demanding parents; students whose personal or behavioral problems interfere with effective teaching; lack of textbooks, supplies, equipment needed to allow them to teach well, etc. A punitive system that further vilifies teachers will only make schools less effective. We do need to remove some teachers who do not belong in the classroom. But the vast majority chose teaching because of their personal concern for children and a sincere desire to give of themselves. They deserve much more help than they receive.

This is awesome, Roger. You definitely have a clear idea of what is wrong with schools and what needs to be done. I just posted a discussion on the persisting achievement gap between black and white students about which there was a report out today. If you have a chance and you would like to comment on that discussion, please do! I'm sure your perspective would add a lot to the conversation. Thanks so much!

I'd like to send a huge "thank you" to Ruth R. for calling in to the show. I always listen to On Point as a podcast a day or so after the shows air and this time was very frustrated at not being able to call in. I cheered out loud while jogging when I heard Ruth's phone call.

The part of Thomas Kane's argument that is most objectionable to me is the idea that teachers should be evaluated on the basis of their students' standardized test scores. I'm all for more strict requirements for granting tenure as well as continued rigorous evaluation once tenure is achieved. I am a teacher and have seen too many mediocre and simply bad teachers ride it out until retirement (though they are still a small minority of the teachers I've worked with). However, using standardized test scores is just such a ridiculous idea, for the reasons already described so well by many in this discussion, that I'm continually amazed that reasonable people still give them any credence to them for comparing schools. It is an even more ridiculous means for comparing teachers.

Rather than reiterating what has already been so well articulated here, I'll give a personal example. I teach in California in an "underperforming" school. We are in a high poverty area of mostly Mexican immigrants. 85% of the students enter school not fluent in English, most with no verbal English at all. We are in our fifth year of sanctions. I would argue that 23 of the 25 teachers there are dedicated, hard-working, well-trained, extremely focused on standards, and very effective. Quite a few are truly outstanding.

In contrast, my daughters attend a charter school (because they still have music, art, and P.E. there) which, while ethnically diverse, has a student body which is pretty solidly middle to upper-middle class. My kids have been in every classroom, k through 8th grade, and as the school is a parent coop, I've spent 1/2 a day a week there for 10 years. (I am a part-time reading intervention teacher at my public school of employment and thus can participate in the coop). The teaching in the charter school - in terms of focus on standards, creativity, and student-engagment - absolutely cannot hold a candle to the teaching at the public school where I teach. And, yes, you guessed it, the charter school has high test scores every year. The unfairness of the idea that the charter school teachers are assumed to be better than the public school teachers makes me almost self-combust with anger whenever I think about it. It also makes me feel crazy that intelligent, presumably well-intentioned people like Thomas Kane don't see the injustice in using standardized test scores as a measure of teacher quality. What's up with that? What am I missing? Or are we really, as Jonathon Kozol argues, living in apartheid and so accostumed to the inequities in the school system that the obvious in invisible to us?
Well, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but thanks to all of you whose postings have made me feel a little less crazy and alone.

Hi, Eileen. You seem to have very interesting perspectives on education, largely based in experience. Thanks so much for being a great teacher--we need them now more than ever in the US. You probably don't need me to tell you this, but there was a report out today about the persisting achievement gap between black and white students. I just fired up a discussion on this topic, and I'd love it if you'd like to comment and share your perspective! It would add a lot to the discussion, I'm sure. Thanks so much!

Tenure is a joke. It's making my life miserable because there are certain teachers who are next to impossible to get rid of. I don't see a whole lot happening, to be honest...

I am a teacher at a school where you reciece a bonus based on test scores. It is based on one test score. I like the bonus idea and paying us on merit, but do not base it on one test score. We also do not have tenure at my school or a salery schedule like most public schools. This is causing a lot of conflict however. Our school opened 3 years ago and some 1st year teachers were hired. Well some first year teachers were hired last and and they started making more than the teachers who had been at the school for 2 years already. It does not make you feel welcome. Now I know some of these teacher have had their salery increased. I do think things need to be change, but the change needs to be more about changing how schools are structured, and how good teachers need to be given the freedom to teach following standards but not scripted lessons, or mandated cirriculum saying you must teach with this book at this time, to pass this test. NCLB has a good meaning behind it, but is not working when you look at test score.

Hi Troy. You have some really interesting perspectives on education, and thanks so much for your service as a teacher! I'm sure I don't have to tell you this, but there was a report out today on the persisting achievement gap between black and white students in our nation. What do you believe needs to be done to close this gap? I'm sure you would add a lot to the discussion I've fired up on this topic. Here's a link to the discussion--please comment if you'd like to and have time! Thanks so much.

Great conversation here. Education directly reflects and contributes to the state of our society. There's a recent report out about the persisting achievement gap, though, between black and white students despite black students' increased performance in math and reading. I'm wondering people's takes on this, and what they think it will take to close the gap. If anyone here would like to comment, I'd really appreciate it! Here's the link. Thanks so much!