Transcript: Special Ask the CEO Live Chat - Gather Points Redemption for non-U.S. Members

Tom, this is great news for many of our international Gather friends.

Hi Folks! Tyler will be getting us started in just a moment.

Thank you for joining Tom and I in this live chat today. My name is Tyler Hoffman and I am the Director of Finance here at Gather. We would like to use this time to update everyone on what we have been doing behind the scenes to enable our non-US members to fully enjoy the benefits of Gather. I would like to describe some of the challenges we face in this area and also solicit some feedback on some alternatives that we may implement.

We are as eager to expand our compensation program as you are, however we want to ensure we do it right the first time, and have been working to devise a program that is clear and concise for our members. I'll give you some background first on what we have learned.

Welcome April! We do believe that offering programs to all Gatherers around the world is important. Today, we aren't here to present a final solution, but rather to seek advice from the community on a number of alternatives. Sadly, laws in countries around the world and treaties between them have not caught-up with the global village in which we now live. As Tyler will explain momentarily, this creates some hurdles for international payments.

Over the past few months, we have talked with some numerous tax accountants and tax lawyers to study this program for us. We have spent a significant amount of time reading their analysis and understanding the rules relating to implementing this program.

With the growth of internet use over the past decade, the ability for people to share information, regardless of location, has grown exponentially. This communication and sharing of information is the core of Gather.

Unfortunately, international taxing authorities (including the US!) do not move as quickly as the rest of us, and we are currently in a position where the international tax law is causing creating some bumps in the path of seamless and legal cross border payments. Without boring you with all the details, redemptions by our members, either in the form of gift cards or cash, are considered royalty payments. When paid to a non-US individual, the IRS (US taxing authority) requires the payer (Gather) to withhold 30% from the payment, regardless of the amount. As a withholding agent, Gather is required to collect and remit this to the IRS and if we did not, we would be liable for significant interest and penalties and you, the member, may be liable for taxes which you were not aware of.

In addition to the withholding requirements mentioned above, all non-US members would be required to submit to Gather a IRS form (W-8BEN) which requires the member to obtain a US taxpayer identification number. Furthermore, if a treaty with your country allows a reduced withholding rate, you may claim that on the form; however this rate is not necessarily reduced to zero.

As you may imagine, this would create a significant discrepancy within our community and discourage the cross border collaboration we have created here.

Are you basing the plans on existing models like the Amazon affiliate system?

Tom, This is awesome news for those international members. TY and have a great day.
Go Bucs

Isn't it simple just to utilize paypal for our international friends? Is it really that hard to set up so that they may have some compensation for their efforts. :D

There are options that we are currently exploring, however, they would require us to change the way we do things here at Gather, and prior to doing so, we think we should run them by you first. For example, how would you feel, if by publishing on Gather, the copyright transfers to Gather?

We could do this on an opt-in basis and by doing so, this changes the nature of the redemption compensation, eliminates a lot of paperwork, and most importantly, the 30% withholding.

I don't think Gather should have copyright over my ORIGINAL work. This would prohibit me being able to use it elsewhere. So I would not agree to TURNOVER my copyright priviledge.

Hi Katherine, the community has spoken and we listened.  Please be assured that we will not be transferring copyright ownership to Gather.  I hope you have seen our recent announcement on the points program and the conversation Tom is currently having here.

I don't think i'd want to lose the rights to my work. I'd have to look into that and see what others say.

Carlen- Tyler has just explained the rules under U.S. law (and the related laws for international payments). These rules are primarily related to our desire to compensate you for sharing content (publishing) on Gather. When we compensate members for activities other than publishing (where royalties reply), the rules are simpler.

As Tyler mentions, we have a few options here:

Option #1 - Change our earnings system so that it earnings are not publishing related. We could continue to compensate members for other activities like inviting friends, browsing and searching on Gather, and creating and managing groups here. But we could not pay members for the content they choose to share here specifically.

Option #2 - (Tyler describes above) Transfer copyrights to Gather for materials published by people outside the country. Why does this matter? Well, today, when we allow members to keep their copyrights (which we prefer), and then compensate them for content published here, the government considers this "US Sourced Income." If we, instead, take ownership of the content (demonstrated through copyright transfer), the government considers this purchasing content from abroad. Here, the income is coming from within your own country and you are bound only by local tax laws (the US doesn't have a claim to that income).

We could, in this scenario, give you a license back to your own content to use other places as you wish and limit our use to Gather-only purposes, but ownership would change.

How do you feel about these alternatives? (And are you enjoying our tax laws as much as we are?)

Jamie, as you know, we offer currently offer Paypal payments in our US cash redemption program. The setup is not really the hard part. Ensuring that we are complying with international tax treaties, and our own US tax law, is the hard part.

Jamie- see the bottom half of my last comment to CarlenLea (CarlenLea- sorry I forgot the "Lea" last time around). We can give you rights back in a license here, but we'd have to own the copyright to make this strategy work.

CarlenLea- the Amazon Affiliates program (and others like it) are treated differently under tax law. In that case, affiliates are paid a marketing fee for promoting products. Here, if we pay you for publishing (even on a sliding scale based on popularity and quality of the content), we are considered to be paying a royalty. This is covered by a different set of rules and regulations.

You raise a really interesting question, though, that we will investigate. What if, instead of paying you for your content, we pay you for driving traffic to Gather (the popularity of your pages). I will investigate this with our team and get back to you. This might be really helpful, thanks!

Thanks for the suggestions and comments here today. Please be assured that we are continually working on rolling out an international compensation program. If anyone has additional suggestions, please post them here or send me a message through the site.

Thanks so much for joining us here today. For those that could not attend, please let us know your thoughts about the alternatives above. If you have other ideas (like CarlenLea), please share those, too!

Tyler and I will collect information for the balance of the week from the community and plan to come back to you before the end of the month in a second live chat.

Thanks for helping us build a better Gather!

- Tom

How are the correspondents picked/hired etc. ?

It seems that option 1, changing the compensation system to a marketing points system (e.g. invites, referrals, etc) rather than based on publishing would be the easiest. I think one could safely assume that the majority of members would not be thrilled with a copyright transfer scenario -- even if it somehow provided for a license back to them.

There could also be a tiered invitation system, which isn't too dissimilar from what's happening now, where selected Gatherers would in-effect become employees of Gather.com, and then be compensated. That way, the Gathers have the expectation of paying taxes and if they were considered to be independent contractors, both the pay-for-publishing model and the tax issues would both be fairly well handled.

There would certain still be some international legal hurdles -- but I think this could clear some stumbling blocks.

Hope that made sense.

very interesting. the points systems i'm having a hard time with some days you get points and other days i don't so. and i was told when i got to 3000 points it turns into cash well im at 4400 and still nothing. now im told i have to do 3000 in one month. that means i have to do 100 points a day. i run a farm and just to put in an hour in the early morning while every one is sleeping and an hour before i go to bed answering emails to get points. i just don't see how it can be done. you want to know we are serious i think if they stay past the 3000 then they are serious so why not change them over to the cash program.

Tom and Tyler, thank you both for addressing this issue.

Firstly, I trust you see the irony in devoting your hour on this topic to a time when those of us in Austral/Asia are sound asleep. Had you offered a discussion topic of great significance to Boston Gatherers at two a.m. their time, they'd be fairly miffed, yes?

That aside, I'm still confused as to why this is a problem when other sites, e.g. Mylot, can offer cash payments internationally. Is it due to how they 'see' their rewards? It seems you're saying that it's because Gather considers its payments as 'royalties' that the tax implications exist. However, the points one earns through inviting, commenting and managing groups are not separated from those earned from publishing creative works, so considering any of them 'royalties' seems inaccurate as well as unnecessary.

I feel if you were to do this: "Option #1 - Change our earnings system so that earnings are not publishing related", you would very quickly have a whole bunch of people inviting, browsing and searching a site with NO PUBLISHED CONTENT. Sorry, I just can't see option 1 working. Also any option that perpetuates the 'equal but different' thing is not a fix really and will just add to our concerns about being treated inconsistently.

Tom, your further comment to CarlenLea sounds more hopeful: "What if, instead of paying you for your content, we pay you for driving traffic to Gather (the popularity of your pages)". It suggests there may be room for you to re-think the earnings away from being considered royalties and this of course is the answer. If it's purely a matter of how the organisation views its reward system I say go for it.

CarlenLea's further suggestion that contributing publishers be considered independant contractors is one I've thought would solve tax problems too, as I suggested in my ananswered email to you last August.

Anyway, I do appreciate that this issue is being looked at, but after waiting a year and a half already, I hope you will forgive any tetchiness apparent in this comment.

I am not following this option of signing copy write over to gather, you would have to pay me an awful lot to do that. I am currently getting 50 - 250 for every article I publish.

What do you mean taking copyright but then assigning it back to us to use elsewhere,

shared copyright is acceptable, in some situations but some places require unique copyright after they have accepted an article, and if interviews with gather, there is a conflict of interest here.


also paypal is accepted 118 countries only.

You would also have to advise your gather members that if they cannot use paypall, they would need to get an e-gold account.

It was my "POINTS" articoe that Maryanne read that got the ball rolling on this one, but because of recent family situations, I had to misss today's discussion. What about international members "gifting" their gift cards to Americans they know? What if someone in Denmark who had 625 points had a gift card send to a friend of theirs in California? Would that work?

I can't understand how Gather can offer compensation to other countries simply because our monetary system differs greatly. For instance, the American dollar is worth much more in Canada than the Canadian dollar is worth in the U.S. Mexico, and other South of the Border countries have different values for their monies, as does Europe. I just think the cost of translating all these different values would be tremendous.


Would it make a difference if Gather offered "gifts" in exchange for foreign points? Coffee cups, Tee Shirts, Jackets, etc. with the Gather logo and value increasing items for those with even more points. Just a thought.

I don't have any solutions to the problem but would just like to add my encouragement to FINDING A SOLUTION ASAP. It is completely unfair to all the people outside the US who publish quality content, make many comments, etc to not be reimbursed equally.

I am not well read on the copyright issue but I cannot see foreign writers wanting to sign over their copyright to Gather.

I wouldn't like to see the manner of awarding points changed as then I possibly wouldn't make much if it is based on invites and referrals. I have invited a few people and only one person signed up and then never came back. I don't publish much and make most of my points by commenting.

I just want to encourage you to come up with a workable plan as soon as possible so we don't lose our many valuable, foreign Gather friends. Thanks.

Leah thanks for 'getting the ball rolling' as you put it! To let you know, Yes, you can already send gift cards to friends in the states. I've done it a few times. Once you're in the 'ordering' page on Gather you can change the name and address to anyone at all and as long as the address is in the USA it just goes ahead and processes them. Whereas it's been great to give pressies, there's still no personal value to me as a contributor. And someone who contributes to the extent you do Leah 'should' be rewarded with the cash option if your monthly points accumulate to that extent, don't you think?

June, from what I've seen there is no cost involved to a payer when sending US dollars to overseas paypal accounts. The receiving paypal country does the conversion on withdrawal of the funds and takes its service fee from the recipient. Thanks for your suggestions and support.

Wilma thank you too! Monetary compensation for your support would be forthcoming but sadly there's these tricky tax laws that I don't think I can get around. ;)

I think that if publishing on Gather meant handing over the copyright to my work, I'd publish even less of my actual writing work (as opposed to blogging) than I do now... but there has to be a solution, especially when other sites (such as MyLot) seem to have worked it out.

CarlenLea and Flit- I tend to agree on copyright transfer. I think it's a high barrier (that's why we didn't raise it to begin with and have been seeking alternatives). I will investigate the marketing question and see what we hear back. Stay turned.

Flit- many sites just ignore the question. They make royalty payments and fail to collect taxes. This creates liability for both the company and their members. I don't know that one in particular, but we have identified a number of companies that are having problems now for not being proactive in addressing this.

Carolyn M- it's hard to find a time when the UK, Canada, and Australia are all awake and Gathering. :-) Tyler and I are going to be monitoring this piece for several days, though, and will be sure to look for the perspective from down under!

We are (as you see from my notes above) going to investigate whether we can amend our earnings system to remove royalties. As several of you suggest, I agree that it would be a shame if we limited compensation to things like inviting and search and browsing. One of the best parts of Gather is the great thinking and expression here. Give us a couple weeks to investigate further and we will be back to you.

Payment systems (e.g. PayPal) are not the issue at all. We use PayPal for U.S. members and could easily do so to compensate people in cash abroad. More from Tyler tomorrow!

Tom, I've come late to this because of the time scheduled for this 'live' discussion. I live in Western Australia and your 12 noon is our midnight, and for Carolyn Madden on the eastern seaboard, it is 0200 hours. Effectively, you timing knocks the Southern Hemisphere out from participating. In future, is it really too much to ask that you have a working breakfast and hold similar discussions at, say, 0800 hours your time - that would make it 2000 hours West Oz time and 2200 hours Eastern Oz time.


The Payment Issue:

Other USA-based sites DO pay non-USA residents and DO allow such to enter competitions. I have been on Gather for 13 plus months and the non-payment of Gather members living overseas has simmered along without any actual results - how much longer will it take to resolve this issue?

Allied to this, why can't I gift my 13 months of earning to a USA resident - two weeks ago I asked that my useless 20,000 points be transferred to a USA friend but was informed that this cannot be done. Why not?


Our Specific Exclusion from Gather Competitions

Tyler says: ...to enable our non-US members to fully enjoy the benefits of Gather. And Tom adds: We do believe that offering programs to all Gatherers around the world is important.

Please back this up with action! The current First Chapters Competition expressly excluded non-USA members from submitting entries, doing so without explanation. To say the least, this exclusion was insulting. Yet we were encouraged to enter the comments part of the First Chapters Competition - and I assume one of us who did so would be eligible to win. Gather's previous Amazons Shorts Competition did not exclude us. What changed?

Please do not keep us in the dark and do not treat us as equal members in rhetoric but as second-class members in fact.


The Way Forward

(1) Please address my points above.

(2) We overseas members become enshrined second-class members if we are required to sign over our copyright to our material to Gather. No other site in the world, to my knowledge, requires this. If this comes about, I can imagine the damaging publicity to Gather.

(3) At least as an interim measure, allow us to transfer our points to whomever we like. Are they our points or does Gather still own our points?

If we have no control over our points then, clearly, they are not our points. And then they become absolutely pointless points!

To Conclude:

Although at times I grumble about Gather - due to the sheer frustration at not being treated equally - I do like much about the site. Many of its features are unique and very positive. I am asking that you listen to we non-USA-based members to make Gather a truly world-wide site in fact, as well as words, and thus a far more meaningful experience in which to participate.

I completely support making it a priority to allow international members to redeem their points. I believe many have already stated their reasons and, of course, I want my firends to have access to gift cards and such. The other reason I think this should be a priority is because I think it is an excellent way to entice potential members from across the globe so PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do this!

Tom – The slow moving governments usually wake up only when a notional fact becomes the fait accompli. It should be possible to circumvent the legal hurdles legitimately in order to pass on the monetary benefits of Gather points to non-US members. It is good that your team has started exploring various ways in which this can be done.

If the laws in the countries around the world and the inter-governmental treaties are slow in catching up with the concept of global village, let Gather take a lead and show them how it can be done. The cross-borders earnings potential through internet use will have a significant impact in empowering the individuals to trade their skills and knowledge free of visibly localized controls. It is not an issue of a few dollars more; it is basically an issue of the direction our present civilization is trying to head. Visionary groups like Gather can do much in catalyzing this move.

As far as the First Chapters goes, contests in the US are heavily regulated with laws. The stipulation I bet would not be Gather's or Simon and Schuster's but some legal technicality that has to do with something or other. How the Amazon Shorts contest was legally allowed to be international and not this contest, I do not know, but I doubt it was Gather's preference or Simon and Schuset's.

Tom, thank you for addressing my points. As to the timing of your chat, of course it's not possible to cover the globe at any one time, however, when I woke at five am this was gone from the front page. Had I not known it was coming, and gone searching for it, I would have missed it entirely. As an article specifically addressing international gatherers, perhaps leaving a note about it somewhere on the front page for 24 hours could have broadened the audience to include all time zones.

Thank you for undertaking to investigate whether royalties can be removed from the payment system. A coupla weeks? No worries.

Thanks Carolyn for alerting me to this posting which I missed for the reasons already outlined above (I live in far North Queensland, Australia)
I have about fifteen thousand odd points but that mean little or nothing.
To say that this annoys me would be a vast understatement.
Having been a fairly active Gatherite since there were just a handful of us here also adds insult to injury.
Although I publish on the site primarily because I am interested in America and all things American from the viewpoint of a cultural anthropologist (yes I am wearing a Pith helmet whilst jotting down notes regarding the fascinating natives) this can only take one so far
I have had various articles featured and have, at times, been engaged in long running and furious debates with other Gather members but all this generated traffic provides me with no remuneration beyond intellectual diversion. For this reason I have slowed down my participation during the last six months.
Being a second class citizen gets you down after a while.
I know this is just a long whinge but it is a heartfelt whinge
Please do your best to sort something out.
If you do then I might start posting my work more often on Gather instead of on the several other sites that I have recently been visiting. After all, Gather is my favourite site. Unfortunately, I am not favoured by Gather..

Thank you Carolyn.

I agree with you. If 625 points will get you a $10 gift card, divide my points by 62.5 and I have just under $425 worth of STUFF in my account!!!! I could make a lot of Americans VERY HAPPY with that.

I am glad you have done it. Thank you for letting me know that my points are good for something....

Just my 2¢:

• Transfer copyright? no.
  
• Allow to transfer the gift card to someone in the US? Not perfect but certainly an improvement, and a quick fix; could be done immediately. I could make use of it
  
• Only points for referals and invitations: no.
  
• Points for driving traffic by browsing and commenting: great.

Any partial solution is better than no solution.

hello, i'm from India. i want to know how could i have cash against my gather points.

or how could i have any other offer here in india.

raj solanki

Magi - the points are yours, Gather does not own them. We could choose to implement a program for you to redeem them, but given the current set of circumstances (see my first comment) we don't think it would an equitable solution for you. We will figure this out so you can redeem your points.

Dolphi - I like the way you think! A world in which we didn't have to worry about complex international tax laws would be wonderful. Until that happens, and Gather may very well play a part in the process, we will find a way to work this program into the current rules and regulations.

Tyler, thank you for addressing at least one of my points - on pointless points.

At this point I am not even asking that I be allowed to redeem them now. I am asking that I be allowed to transfer my points to an American friend - surely there can be no objection (legal or otherwise) to me gifting 'my points' to a friend? If not, please implement my request to transfer 'my points' to whomever.

If I have no control of what I can do with 'my points', then I have no ownership of them - then they are not 'my points', in actual fact.

Surely you can see that Gather facilitating the transference of points 'owned' by non-USA-based members, to whomever, gives some interim practical meaning - and reward - to our continuing to participating on this site? It is a way forward out of this morass of pointless points. It gives immediate relief from the long, long saga to date; and gives Gather more time to come up with a long-term solution.

Tom, please respond to:

(1.) In future, is it really too much to ask that you have a working breakfast and hold similar discussions at, say, 0800 hours your time - that would make it 2000 hours West Oz time and 2200 hours Eastern Oz time.

(2.) Regarding future Gather competitions - Please do not keep us in the dark and do not treat us as equal members in rhetoric but as second-class members in fact.

(3.) I am asking that you listen to we non-USA-based members to make Gather a truly world-wide site in fact, not merely in words only, and thus a far more meaningful experience for everyone. You either value us or you don't - if you value us, then please listen to what we say and implement.

What Hajo and Magi said!!!

I'm loving Magi's idea of an 'interim' arrangement to permit the transfer of points from one gatherer to another. To me, the legality and therefore the success of this would depend on the point at which our points become 'royalties'. If their taxation implications only become relevant when redeemed for cash then surely, while they are merely points, there can be nothing untoward in zapping them through the ether to someone who can make better use of them.

I realise that adding a 'tansfer points' feature that we members control (while utterly brilliant!) could be a little expensive to implement programming wise, but I can't see there being that many requests of this nature, so surely manual manipulation of the records could be arranged for the occasional request. It would certainly add to the good faith Gather is wanting to show us while investigating how to fix the compensation anomalies that exist.

Hey guys - I don't want to transfer my hard earned points to anyone!
I want the facility to be able to redeem them like any other (American) Gather member.
I would like to be able to purchase Barnes and Noble Gift certificates etc etc and then utilise them for my own benefit.
When this happens I may return to the site more often.
I might post articles on Gather in preference to other sites.
(I might feel a little less ****ed off.)
I don't want to remain a second class citizen.

James, I'm suggesting the transference of points as an interim measure while the current situation of non-USA members having pointless points is resolved.

Of course you and all the rest of us should be able to redeem them! The point is, we cannot at this time. And God only knows for how much longer this inequitable situation will just continue to meander along. Nothing at all has effectively happened to resolve the issue during the 13 plus months that I have been on Gather. We simply have not been given any priority at all. In another 13 months from now, this situation could still exist. I want an alternative option until then.

Cheesus krauppenheimer Uncle Tom, I set a district record on ged buut messed it up by by graduating from a grade d high school. Kin I stilol be a us memembur sted of uh them member? Tke Care, Much Love!! Hey, yah still got exclusive on me. Dond go sellin out fer less than fdour trillion. Okay?

There are no circumstances under which a writer giving up or sharing copyrights will work. Gather is not a face-to-face operation. So, in essence, Gather would be asking writers to sign away copyrights to people they have never even met. Asking writers to give away or share their copyrights will make many writers stay away from Gather. This is not a slam against Gather, this is just a fact.
It's not like someone from halfway around the world can jump in their car and drive over to Gather if they thought something was wrong with the way their copyrights were being handled .

George, I would not post another thing on Gather if the cost of doing so was to hand over the copyright. Gather would be shooting itself in the foot if it implemented this idea. Many of us would leave the site, forthwith.

Just stopping in to say, "Hi Tom" :)

George, thank you for your input. Copyright transfer was just one of the possible avenues we explored to facilitate opening up our redemption program to non-US residents. The feedback we have received here confirms our initial feeling that it was not a viable alternative. We are actively working on the "right" solution! ~ Tyler

I missed this discussion but I agree with whatever Magi and Carolyn have to say. I understand I'm from a minority I think there may only be 3 or 4 active members from New Zealand and understand it would be hard to satisfy everyone.
Mostly I'd be happy if I could transfer my points to someone else if I can't use them myself.

meanwhile, I use to be one of the biggest contributors on gather, and now I am hardly here,

I have come in very late. I am not going to hand over my copyrights ever. If by my publishing, gather makes money, I would rather stop interacting. As I see it the non-US members make the site interesting with their diverse views. If it is not visible to the gather management then I don't want any part of it.

I am not too happy about losing my copyrights, I am afraid a lot of gather members will chose to go elsewhere, if a such proposal is adopted. ACtually I think I will seek other roads too, as this is one of the great things about Gather.

did the 9100 tokens sending thing and never got tokens Why?

I`m sailing in the same boat like other non-US members here in Gather. I`m here since half a year and have been posting quite a deluge of articles, poems, exclusive images and have gathered 3000+ G points so far.
Uptil now I haven`t tried to redeem my points for cash or gift card, b`coz coming across such articles like this one, stops me from doing so.

Well, when this is the case, I am not pleased to spend hours and hours here on gather to post my contribution for nothing. And I`m not in favour to hand over my copyright either. Hope Gather understands our problems?

tom where are we on this issue as of today, September 23, 2007?

Tom where are we on this issue as of today, January 6, 2008.
Please also let us know the status of payment to international members.

hello Tom,

you must open gather branch in india so that it will be easy for
us to encash our points in indian currency . to get money form us
we need to file income tax return as well as to follow the reserve bank
guide line which is time consuming ..