The Politics of Ultrasound

thanks for the info..this nothing more than scare tactics from Dobson's group..i hope it fails

Mr. Dobson should be out there demanding that any woman who cannot have an abortion has the option to give all legal and upbringing responsibility to the father of the child...and that includes all medical responsibility up to the birth and after if required. This should not be a problem now that we have D&A...and if he dose not accept that responsibility he goes to jail....period!!!!!

I am sick and tired of Mr. Dobson and other male's laying the quilt, and responsiblity of what a woman can do or not do with her body...she did NOT do it alone did she or am I missing something here....I had four and did not do it by myself.....

What?! To hit where it hurts the most: who's going to pay for all these ultrasounds?

Donna, I'm SO sick of hearing that "telling women what they can do with their bodies" crap. Can you choose to abuse drugs or be a prostitute? No. Suicide will land you in a mental institution in almost every state. Even in Oregon, if you don't go through the state approved process. Perhaps you've heard of the draft? In many periods, men have been drafted and DIED by the THOUSANDS from the state telling them what to DO WITH THEIR BODIES. The "state telling us what to do with our bodies" crap is an excuse, nothing more. Let's call a spade a spade, shall we? Abortion, or at least the vast majority of them in this country, are for BIRTH CONTROL. That is, someone wants to avoid responsibility for a decision. Now if the woman decides to have the baby, the father, who had NO say in the decision, pays for it. Child support, medical insurance, medical bills, ect. for a child he had only very little say in. Now of course, you're going to talk about responsibility but consider, you're expecting someone to take responsibility for a decision they had no say in. When responsibility and authority are not equal, you have problems.

Now of course this idea is somehow "force" more women to not have abortions. This is not like informed consent laws, that tell a woman the possible range of consequences of abortion. I can't understand why the left demands that the "right" to abortion be so savagely defended. Notice it's a federal crime to protest too close to an abortion clinic and until recently there could be NO waiting periods for abortion. Where is the triumph for abortions? Is it in the idea of so solidly cementing the idea of no consequences? Why does a "right" conjured up by some of the most tortured legal logic of the 20th century so worthy of protection?

Dobson's propal is ridiculous, however Planned Parenthood and other Pro-Choice groups need to be equally careful not to sway a woman toward an abortion. A woman in this situation should have access to as much information as possible. It's not a decision she can take back

I find it seriously disturbing that many right to life proponents are willing to kill for the sake of an unborn child, but are silent about the war they support that has resulted in the violent death of thousands of innocent Iraqi children.

Dobson continues to take the easiest and cheapest way toward trying to deter women from having abortions; guilt, shame and blame via in-your-face opposition.

If his Christian heart and mind were really into reducing the number of abortions in America he'd be more of a mouth piece for the other alternatives; adoption agencies, foster homes and children's homes (abstinence and birth control are already moot when abortion is the decision being considered).

The finger pointing stance he takes has always been marginally effective in this arena.

It is based on Old Testament views and tactics, not the New ones that JC shed his blood to being us.

It's Biblical Legalism instead of Spiritual Grace; and turns more people away then pulls them in.

Actually anyone who actually reads Roe versus Wade realizes that the law actually verifies that the state has control over a women's body - except when it allows her to have an abortion.

Devin, "I find it seriously disturbing that many right to life proponents are willing to kill for the sake of an unborn child, "

I am pro-life, but do not believe in "killing" to preserve the life of an unborn child.

Why is it considered "horrible" to ask a woman to look at the part of "her body" that she is destroying?

This is just ridiculous. Does Dobson believe that by showing a woman a less than 12 week old fetal ultrasound he will "guilt" the woman into changing her mind? Anyone who has seen a 12 week US knows it is virtually indistinguishable. Does he expect her to say "Awww...thats my baby"? What total rubbish.

When will these religious zealots realize that NO ONE wants abortion. (ok, maybe a few unresponsible junkies). These women go through hell to make that decision, and YES, it is HER decision, and hers alone.

Mark,
What a load of hooey! Yes, one can choose to take drugs or prostitute themselves. Suicide lands one in the graveyard, not the mental ward, unless of course it was unsuccessful, which I am assuming is what you meant. As for the draft, even those boys had a choice. Ever heard of Canada, thousands did.
As for the father not having a say, did it ever occur to you that the woman would probably NOT choose to abort if the "father" were at all supportive? Just look at the number of deadbeat dads we already have. Your analagies don't make much of an arguement.

James Dobson is simply not a nice man. He can take responsibility for that. His followers can take responsibility for giving him a voice and political power.

What really drives me nuts is that these same religious right-wing extremists that care so much about unborn fetuses are the same people who are all for getting rid of social programs that would allow these women to be able to raise the same baby.

It seems to me that more of these zealots are only concerned with the fetus until it is born and then they will damn the mothers for being welfare moms.

If the state is so sure that all these babies should be born then the state should be helping to support these babies.
Did anyone bother to consider that many times the decision is made out of financial necessity?
For a lot of woman, their jobs simply do not pay enough to afford day care and pay the bills.
Do not even get me started on the overpopulation problem. 6.5 billion on a planet that has a carrying capacity of 5 bil. The crisises that we are faced with as a species right now are mostly about overpopulation. We need less children being born not more.

At whose expense will these ultrasounds be administered? I can't stand the anti-abortion crowd looking for ways to control women with no regard to the cost. I know the issue is more than money but our government has no interest in the matter and the US Constitution was interpreted properly in Roe V. Wade. It's time to stop the madness and stand up to the Dobson's of this country.

//you're expecting someone to take responsibility for a decision they had no say in// Geez, Mark, "just say no" to sex.

Right on, Christine. It does indeed seem as though life is sacred to the Right only as long as it's unborn. Every woman I know who has had an abortion has gone though hell before, during and after that decision. A lot of that hell was applied by the so-called Christians who wanted to rub her face in their view of the consequenses.

I just want the "pro choice" people to say on record what the justification is for our own infintile genocide we are participating in to the tune of 19,000 abortions per week for the last thirty years.

I always knew abortion was a bad thing. No getting around it; it's a sad sorry thing.

Nevertheless, I always thought it should not be made illegal.

It wasn't until I became acquainted with the thinking of terrorists such as Osama bin Laden that I understood the paradox in holding both of those beliefs at the same time.

Under his rule, women would be the property of men. Abortion would be illegal. It would be another way for Osama bin Laden's government to control and subjugate women.

I think in a democracy, abortion education would be good. Making abortion illegal would be bad. How much power do we want government to have over pro-creation? I say, keep government out of it altogether. This goes also for any kind of government sanctions on the number of children folks can have. (Such as China forbidding couples to have more than one child.) Trust me, this is more power over our lives than we want our legislators to have.

Geez, Mark, can you spell r u b b e r ?

Extremists meet extremists........ each pointing at the other and complaining about "extremism".

Mr. Dobson should be out there demanding that any woman who cannot have an abortion has the option to give all legal and upbringing responsibility to the father of the child...and that includes all medical responsibility up to the birth and after if required. This should not be a problem now that we have D&A...and if he dose not accept that responsibility he goes to jail....period!!!!!

How about giving men the right to "abort" their parental responsiblities? Why should women be the only ones with "choice"? Of course, I would only think it fair that men be required to view an ultra-sound of the child befpre they "aborted" away their rights and responsibilities.

Mark M, would you tell us, if you are so against the taking of this pre-human life, why you approve of war? War is the wanton destruction of everything, including your precious human life, whether participating or not, in pursuit of military goals. Where's the triumph in Iraq? What? Did you say freedom? Whose freedom? How many babies have died in the abortion that is this Iraq war? I didn't know you could be dead and free at the same time. Sorry, but I'm just having trouble seeing how gajillions have died in military exploits, therefore women should submit their bodies and minds to the will of the moral police. That's not making sense to me.

I would say that the best place to show young ladies an ultrasound is in sex education class, where if properly taught, the young and impressionable will get an eyeful and an earful of info about the responsibilities inherit in human sexuality.

It's no coincidence that women's liberation became a reality in the US only after the passage of Roe v. Wade in 1973. If the government owns a woman's body, then by extension, her husband owns it too. Until recent history, women were little more than chattel, and it was her role in childbirth and infant childcare that relegated her to that lowly status. Only when women chose when they will give birth and who the father will be, can they have equal power with men.

Oh, and of course equality is what Dobson and all the right-wingers hate. They want a return to a patriarchy, where women are subservient to men.

Until recent history, women were little more than chattel

So how does making the unborn child the chattel of women further the cause of human rights?

Oh, and of course equality is what Dobson and all the right-wingers hate. They want a return to a patriarchy, where women are subservient to men.

Oh, and of course equality is what feminists and the left-wingers hate. They want to establish a matriarchy, where men and children are subservient to women.


Mindless drivel........(sigh)

If you guys really want to have a baby, you could pay a woman to fertilize her eggs in vitro, give up rights to them, and then pay to incubate the embryo to term. I believe this is scientifically possible. Maybe in the futurem science will figure out a way that you could carry the embryo in an artificial womb, or somehow grow a uterus in your body. Or, since nature didn't make men equal to women in this regard, maybe you should just get over it!

To answer your question, Greg, I don't believe an embryo is a child. It has the potential to become a child, but so do egg and sperm cells.

As to a matriarchy...well, it might be worth a try. It couldn't be any worse than the mess the patriarchies have made of the world (that would be all known advanced civilizations throughout the history of humankind). Personally, I think we need to get to a place of complete equality between the sexes. We were headed that way until the recent conservative backlash.

I got the impression from the article that ultrasounds were already a SC state requirement before an abortion, this new law would simply require the doctor to share it with the patient.
no additional monies are going to be spent due to this bill. No additional restrictions of a womans right to have an abortion.

So why the outrage?

This is a pretty stupid argument. By the time the abortion is done (partial-birth abortions are allready illegal), they're either so small they can't be made out or look sort of like a dinosaur (just like a multitued of other animals, you stupid evolution-deniers). What a dumbass law.

Dan, current Dept of Health and Environmental Control regulations require an ultrasound be performed on women when the gestational age is clinically estimated to be 14 weeks or more and recommended when the gestational age is estimated to be 12 weeks or more.

There are only 3 abortion providers in South Carolina and at this time, ultrasounds are a standard form of patient care at these facilities.

Why the outrage? The state of South Carolina is mandating that a woman must view a medically unnecessary ultrasound image and certify in writing that she has reviewed the images before proceeding with medical treatment. It appears to be a violation of the doctor-patient relationship and a politically driven attempt to restrict abortions by scaring and intimidating women. Ultrasounds are medical procedures not political tools.

Mark (all the way up at the top of the conversation who will probably never read this...),
I'm sorry, have you ever been pregnant before? Let's think about this one -- no. Do you talk to everyone in abortion clinics across the country and poll them about their personal lives and what they're going through? Again, let's ponder this one. Also, do you really think that every biological father pays child support and helps out? because if you do, you're sorely mistaken.

I agree that a man should be able to "abort" their parental responsibilities, if he does it within a few weeks after the intercourse, so she has time to arrange an abortion if that's her choice. He should pay his share of medical costs, of course. Maybe there should be a legal proceeding for this.

Actually, Daniel...I had an ultrasound at about 6 weeks (an advanced sort) which did show what was called "a viable pregnancy." A lot can be learned form ultrasounds, as one who has had close to 20 of them, in relation to dynamic pregnancies.

I used to counsel women who'd had abortions. After seeing how they suffer, emotionally and physically (some were unable to conceive later on) Anything women can know before they make their decision is well-worth their overall well-being. Forget Dobson and his over-the-top tactics. Let's care about people.

With all respect, Rich, I don't know any liberals who raise their kids with no morals or sense of responsibility. That would be...bizarre.

Well, I'm sure if I really DIG, I might be able to find someone who doesn't give a good damn about their kids who is a liberal, but I know of highly conservative parents who are more permissive with their kids than liberals I know. The moderates? No one pays any attention to them, anyway, right?

Using words like slut and accusing people of being immoral doesn't help or belong in any discussion one wishes to be taken seriously in, really. If you want people to respect what you have to say, then it is at least worth considering being respectful in your speech, especially towards people whose thoughts you night wish to influence. "Slut" is a turn-off word to women, as well it should be. It closes ears and opportunities for frank and productive conversation. You'll find that people are much happier to listen if you try not to piss them off, unless that is your motive in its entirety, in which case you'll just eventually be ignored because ppl won't want to waste their time spinning their wheels around inflammatory remarks. Really.

Rich,
You obviously know very few liberal families. Of course, that's not too surprising, as I doubt any enlightened souls would want your sick, twisted mind to have any influence on their children. The idea that every liberal teaches their children to go out and fornicate as soon as possible is indicative of your ignorance, not your moral superiority.

Now, as for the subject of this article, as someone a little less tolerant said up there, let's call a spade a spade. Anti-abortion forces have one aim, to make the process of obtaining an abortion as difficult, and discouraging as possible. This is the only aim of this law, one more brick in the wall. Other than that, it has no health care value, obviously. Bad law, unnecessary and degrading to women.

Excellent article. Thank you for sharing.

Ummm... I know of at least one health insurance company in Kansas that requires the mother view an ultrasound of the fetus before she aborts. This apparently hasn't caused the same outrage?

I believe that viewing an ultrasound is a GOOD idea. The reason the pro-choice people are so upset at this requirement is that they KNOW that many women, once they see the living creature inside them, will be unable to have an abortion. Why is this wrong? Would you prefer they continually assure themselves this will be simple, pain-free and over in just a few minutes?

It doesn't work that way. Depending on what you could afford, at least twenty years ago, you either had a local or a general. General, of course, was more expensive... if you were unfortunate and did the local well, let's just say for some people you need more anaesthetic, but the whole theory is, "we've already started, just sit still and it will be less than ten minutes." Yes, just lay there, hurt, know and feel what is going on, and then not believe that you're allowed to mourn it because (a) you were told it wasn't human anyhow, (b) it was your choice, so you have no RIGHT to feel bad about the results - you made your bed (in SO MANY WAYS) so now you have to lie in it.

Then struggle with infertility for years after, and question, is this some sort of God retribution? I threw away something that was important after all, and now I don't get another chance?

Allowing women to come to terms with that ultrasound image, and what they are doing, I think... can help weed out the ones who will have the greatest problem with their decision afterwards. If they see the image and can calmly say, "Yes, I agree with this and it is the best decision for me," then they are likely not to have nearly the same amount of trauma as someone who keep assuring themselves that it really isn't what they believe, that it's just a whole bunch of cells that don't even look like anything...

Good article, thanks for the information. I found it very informative.

I am 100% pro-life and I have great respect for Dr. James Dobson and Focus on the Family.
I totally agree, women should be made to see an ultrasound of their unborn child.
They will see that it's NOT just a "bunch of cells". Did you know that the word "fetus" is
latin and means "Young one". Even being an embryo is just another stage of life........it's earliest stage. God has His eye on every child that's conceived and has a plan for it's life.
So, where do women come off thinking they have the right to destroy that life.
They say it's "part of their body". WHOA!!!!! OH NO IT'S NOT! It's NOT part of their body, like a liver, gallbladder,spleen, heart.....etc. The baby has it's OWN DNA. The baby has it's own genetic makeup, own blood. Should I go on? The baby is no more a "part of the woman's body" than a car parked in a garage makes it PART of the garage!
Now while we can do DNA tests to see who we "belong to", that doesn't make us "their part". God made us individual beings. "We are fearfully and wonderfully made".
From the second we were conceived, God knew everything about us.
Now here we are, October 29, 2008. One day shy of a week to vote for a new President.
And I pray it's NOT Obama. Although, it looks like that it will be Obama, unless a miracle happens. But you know, I've found myself thinking, that for the way this country has
been going, if Obama makes it into the White House, I believe God will use Obama to bring this country to it's knees. I said this same thing on another post on Gather.
And to my surprise, I had someone "ping" me, agreeing with what I said!
God works in mysterious ways. Over 450 million babies have been murdered by abortion since 1973, and I believe this country will pay greatly. In fact, I think it's already started.

if they dont want to see an ultrasound, they are in DENIAL about the life of the baby and to say its not a 'real life' or not 'viable' is just rationalizing to make themselves feel better about what theyre doing.

thanks for the article. yet another tactic to chip away at Roe v Wade.

all you prolifers that are for this. you haven't seen the ugly side of the welfare system in inner cities.

start volunteering your time with people who need help and guidance to just get through life and maybe you'll understand why have a choice about abortion is necessary.

i'm so tired of people standing on their soapboxes orating the sins of abortions.

close your mouths and open your hearts to people who are in need.

"close your mouths"......maybe these welfare 'sponges' should close their 'legs'..........or practice birth control.every planned parenthood hands out condoms and birth control.....the welfare abusers need to USE them, instead of our tax dollars to support them and their many kids.

like i said, close your mouths and volunteer.

these women have never had any love in their life except the physical contact with a man.
they are not well educated and have no respect for themselves. they learn by example. have you ever spent any time with teen girls from the inner city. they are naive and overwhelmed.

we need to help, not hate. that's the problem with prolifers they just yack on and on about how horrible abortion is. they never leave their nice little neighborhoods to do anything about it.

"these women have never had any love in their life except the physical contact with a man.
they are not well educated and have no respect for themselves"
again.......................birth control......

Who's there to teach them about birth control?
You?
Doesn't sound like it.

They're naive. When a guys saying you can't get pregnant 'this way' or 'if you do this' they believe them.

Like I said all prolifers want to do is preach and judge people.

They have no interest in helping.
Heaven forbid they have to get their hands dirty.
They have no interest in seeing the ugly side of society and reaching out to those in need.

Prolifers are judgemental, hateful people.

Hate doesn't change anything.
Kindness and understanding is the only way you can make a difference.

a persons 'ignorance' of birth control, or what a man says to them in order to have sex still doesn't make abotion right.

Nicole M.,............Ever hear of adoption? I live just north of Lancaster City; here in good 'ole Pa., and there are plenty of adoption agencies in Lancaster for these women and young girls to go to for help. THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO! I happen to know for a fact that alot of these girls get pregnant just TO GET MORE WELFARE!! So, don't say it's ignorance!
They are not stupid! I also know, from experience, that birth control doesn't always work. But that's still no reason for abortion. Maybe I should tell you about my own life's experience about getting pregnant at not-such-a-good-time-in-my-life.
My marriage was in trouble( husband had a problem with alcohol), I had two boys already in foster care, and I had just started back to work when I found out I was pregnant with my third child. Now, by some people's way of thinking, that was a good excuse to have an abortion. In fact, my then-husband suggested abortion. It will be 18 years this Dec. 14 that I left my husband and went to live with my grandparents. My life was shattered.
I cried my eyes out that Christmas eve. Imagine having your family torn apart. Here you are, it's Christmas eve., you're about 7 months pregnant, you've left your husband,and you have two children in foster care. Yes, those were some pretty gray clouds! But the silver lining was that February 18 I gave birth to a baby boy who went on to be another couples son. That was the HARDEST THING I EVER DID!!!!!!!!!
And I HAVE NO REGRETS!!

Anyway, like I said....don't tell me that these young women are "naive". Hardly!
I have an Aunt that once managed a business, and she had a young lady tell her that she needed more money. My Aunt offered her more hours to work. The young lady turned her down saying "No, I don't need more hours to work, I have to have another baby."
Getting pregnant was her way of getting more money from welfare.
I used to work with a young girl that refused to work more hours because that would mean her food stamps and money from welfare would be cut.
I'm not saying this to be hateful, I'm just saying this, because it's facts.
But, still, Robyn is right, ignorance or not, still doesn't make abortion right.

I'm a single mom and I had three miscarriages before I had my daughter. By the way, my daughter was planned while I was happily married.
Don't think I'm 100% pro-choice. Abortion is a horrible thing.

I know all about those who use the welfare system for their own benefit.

I'm totally for adoption as well.

There are cultural differences amongst all of us. Education is necessary to stop using abortion as birth control. Who's there to reach out to that portion of the population who doesn't know any better because 'that's what everyone around them does.'

Stop judging, reach out, start volunteering.
Complaining doesn't change anything.
Actions cause change.

I have full custody of my child because my ex turned into a drug addict. I work full time, live paycheck to paycheck, yet I still find time in my schedule to get a babysitter and volunteer.