I just had an epiphany “Fighting hate with hate is not the answer”. Does this mean we should stand silent, of coarse not because when we stand up to Evil, when we expose hatred they loose their powers?
I have come to realize I am loosing my objectivity and my composure when dealing with certain individuals here on Gather. There are those who use words and erroneous facts to twist and skew certain bigotries we all have into an all and out war between us vs. them. I include myself among those that have lost their way on this slippery slope that is immigration and illegal immigrants. I have at times let myself be caught up in this heated debate, as I am called, un-American, pro illegal, an illegal immigration advocate, a racist and most recently a treasonous traitor. I am mostly a tolerant individual and I like to think I have no prejudices, as most Americans like to do. However, as I find myself on the edge of the fence that is the topic of immigration and illegal immigrants, I find myself being painted a racist and un-American time after time, simply because I belief that everyone should be treated with respect regardless of their legal status or ethnicity. This in turn is making suspect every phrase and or comment made by an individual that stands on the opposite of the fence.
Whatever you views and thoughts on immigration and illegal immigrants are, once thing we should all remember. “We should treat everyone as we expect to be treated”. You put out hate and will get back hate. You put out understanding and you will receive the same. We are all Americans and all the shouting and denials by extremist cannot change that fact. So I put out my opened hand to those individuals that have spewed so much veil hatred and animosity to me and everyone else that did not embrace your cry to extinguish the flame of freedom in this great country of ours.
rate
email
print
link to this page
Comments: 119
The problem we seem to have between those who support illegals being here and those who want them gone is a matter of legality. We cannot pick and choose which laws we abide by even if we disagree with those laws. Well, ok you actually can ignore laws, but you're still subject to their consequences if you break them. It is no different with illegals. They choose to break the law and come here illegally and therefore must accept the full legal consequences of their choices. I feel where the U.S. really loses is when they refuse to apply that same rule to those who shelter and employ illegals. After all, if you dry up the jobs and the support then people would be forced to use legal means if they wished to come here.
Heck, as much as I oppose illegal immigration, I would support a guest worker program as long as it had no path to citizenship outside of the normal one. The only other caveat I would add to that program is that any employer caught claiming he could not find Americans to do the job and is then found to be lying be permanently excluded from the program.
The solution is education. Education culls ignorance that will, in turn, cull fear that will, in turn, cull hatred.
Knowledge is power and until people arm themselves with knowledge..true, actual, and factual firsthand and to the letter knowledge of the issue, not as it is misconstrued and spread a scare tactic by someone else's shallow perception - there will always be hatred because there will always be fear because there will always be ignorance.
Signed,
Senobia
Resident harborer of criminal aliens and bearer of three anchor babies - who, altho she was born here and isn't of Hispanic decent, has been told to 'go back where she came from' and that she's 'not welcome in this country' too many times to count on Gather.
I would normally have gone berserk and lashed out at the individual who slandered me with this idiotic label, but I finally realized that it is exactly what these extremists feed on and want. To them anyone who does not fall into line with their views must not be true Americans. It reminds me of the McCarthy Era, in which those that did not conform were branded communist and their lives were destroyed. I have finally realized these individuals are only lashing out a specific group, because they do not have the control they seek in their own lives.
I tried to tell you this several days ago....you wouldn't listen.
That's it exactly!
Debates need to be kept as debates and not spiral down to name calling, and hating for the sake of hating.
Someone might have a good idea that is never voiced for fear of being called names and being harassed.
Good article, Juan
If the illegal aliens "would want to treat everyone else the way they want to be treated", then I agree! 100%
I will open a separate bank account so that they can send money to help me pay for my medical, increased taxes (city, county, state), birth and care of all of my kids, total immunity from building and fire codes when I violate them by habitating more than 1 family in a SFR and one more thing...
they have to prove that they have lost jobs to an illegal alien from China working for 50 cents an hour. Since they won't want to work for 50 cents an hour the Chinese will gladly do the jobs THEY DON'T WANT TO.
If anyone says ' how can they pay if they don't have jobs?', welcome to America!
I don't hate, I understand, now let's see if they do.
Time after time, after time, after time, after time throught your articles and comments, you have tried to paint everyone who is opposed to illegal immigration as racist, and you all had your icon as a caveman, cleverly placed there I might add, swinging a club to drive your message home even harder. Deny it all you want, but all one has to do is follow you around from thread to thread and they will see the proof.
The main problem I have with this is that some naive newcomer to Gather, who is completely ignorant of the illegal immigration debate, will actually believe that being opposed to illegal immigration is racist. I hate to say it, but there are some naive bleeding heart people out there who are stupid enough to believe that.
I don't think that Larry is actually a racist, but I can see how people could read him as being racist, and I've told him that as well. If you don't believe me, just ask him.
I feel the same way.
Can't argue with the core of this article but the jingoistic icon really makes me wonder.
Namaste, Wayne
Juan, a good article and it is difficult to keep the peace, is it not?
Senobia, well said. McCarthyism is alive and well and ignorance and racism is too.
About 85% of American citizens were born in America, so no, the vast majority of Americans have NEVER been immigrants. That was a rather poor question, really.
As for the debate over illegal immigration, it is plain that the socio-economic costs to the taxpaying citizens of this country far outweigh any benefit provided by said illegal aliens.
Juan,
I too would like to see a rational and factual debate as opposed to name-calling hissy fits. Well said, even though I don't agree with your position.
Exactly!
For those who do not know me, my icon goes back to my college days. My fraternity nickname was Captain Caveman, or Cavey for short. While a brother in the Delta Sigma Pi, business fraternity I was crowned with the name Captain Caveman, because of my long hair. In my professional life I dealt with a lot of old school buddies who still remembered from those days, so I kept and used the CC symbol or character to identify myself.
We don't care WHERE these people come from. We don't care what their "heritage" is. We don't care about anything other than the fact that the very FIRST ACT they performed upon setting foot in our country was to break the law because it was "inconvenient" for them.
They are CRIMINALS. They BROKE THE LAW. I don't care if it's 100,000 NORWEGIANS - if they don't come here LEGALLY, then they are CRIMINALS - get it? IT's NOT ABOUT RACE, or CULTURE - it's about BREAKING THE LAW because you don't find it convenient.
If you REALLY don't care that someone breaks the law because it's inconvenient, then I suppose you won't mind when I steal your car later tonight, because it's inconvenient for me to buy one, yah?
Schliemann claimed in his memoirs to have dined with President Millard Fillmore in the White House in 1850. However newspapers of the day make no mention of such a meeting, and it seems unlikely that the president of the United States would have a desire to hob-nob with a poor immigrant. Schliemann left California hastily in order to escape from his business partner, whom he had cheated. In the frontier society of the gold rush, cheating was punishable by lynching. Nor did Schliemann become a U.S. citizen in 1850 as he claimed. He was granted citizenship in New York city in 1868 on the basis of his false claim that he had been a long-time resident. He never received any degree from the University of Rostock, which rejected his application and thesis. Schliemann's worst offense, by academic standards, is that he may have fabricated Priam's Treasure, or at least combined several disparate finds. His servant, Yannakis, testified that he found some of it in a tomb some distance away, and that it contained no gold. Later it developed that he hired a goldsmith to manufacture some artifacts in Mycenaean style, and planted them at the site, a practice known as salting.
Judie...At one point I was sympathetic for illegal immigrants, that was until the owner of a Mexican restaurant told me that he could get fake drivers license and stolen SS numbers for illegal immigrants, and ICE couldn't touch him. Then I stumbled upon a Human Trafficking situation and became involved in an ICE investegation.
How about that Juan, Joe, Kathleen and everybody else who expressed sympathy and support for illegal immigration on this thread ? We need more Human Trafficking, stolen SS numbers and fake drivers license don't we ??
I salute you, friend. I understand also what you are saying. I, myself, just got bored of the name-calling. It's like after the endless circle of name-calling, I tried reaching out to some people, but they've made up their minds they're going to hold grudges. Oh, well.
Timothy, yeah, I still hold sympathy...but just cuz I sympathize doesn't mean I approve. It's as simple as saying, man, you illegals break the law to get jobs, money...some of you might even steal SS and driver's license...but I understand that this country is the best in the world...so I sympathize. I DO NOT SAY IT'S OKAY. They do need to face the law.
Timothy, BTW, when are you going to post your own pic?
You have NEVER... EVER.. seen me say ANYTHING about "hispanics" or "latinos" being unwelcome. That is YOUR OWN PERSONAL SPIN on my opinion. You're not just a racist bigot, you're a liar.
Joan D, and if I remember correctly, you were being very hateful about Hispanics, just like Larry French. Wasn't one of your heroes that Schlemann guy? At this point, you're going to say, "Prove it". I don't feel like going back 100 posts, looking for your tirades, but I do remember your name. I'm not a liar, either.
Yes, I point and laugh at Juan's hypocracy. It's amusing as all get-out. Just like yours.
Now you might not be the extremist that Larry is, but your statement Joan D. commented Mar 23, 2007 "Oh, look, it's Leti, the Anchor Baby coming to try and make a coherent comment. LIAR. Find where I have EVER said "Hispanics" are a problem. I've said that not bothering to learn ENGLISH is a problem, but that's a problem for ANY non-English speaker - including Norwegians, you liar." can easily be dismissed and can be proven untrue. Let me just look at my notes. I keep a record of every derogatory, prejudices and racist statement made on any posting I interact with.
I am going to write Gather today and request that we have control over who can post on our articles or at least be able to delete hate filled comments like the ones that Joan leaves. It turns a potentially helpful discussion into a stressful argument and I really don't need people like that in my life.
Judie...good point. I'm going to have to look at this issue very seriously with this next election, too!
Juan, be strong! Don't let them drag you down! I almost stooped to their level just today but I went back and deleted the post because I realized that I didn't want to be like them. I think that those of us who hunger for a debate that is void of the hatred and slander should mass email Gather and request that the writer of the article be given the power to either ban a poster who behaves this way or delete posts that are hateful. I have already done this. Maybe if they get enough complaints they will realize how wide spread the problem is.
However in order for certain individuals to feel superior and to feel morally right, they have to paint my moderate views on immigration as un-American, pro-illegal immigration and in once instance a treasonous traitor. I must admit, I love a good fight and thus do tend to egg on these closet racist and Xenophobes. But at the end of the day, I believe what get these individuals so irate is that I am 100 percent American and all their shouts of, "Go back to Mexico" or "Look out the ICE is raiding your neighborhood" really don't mean a thing.
Because there ISN"T ANY.
You're a liar. Wandering Soul can emo at you all she wants, but you're a liar, and so is Leti.
No, I'm not justifying crossing the border illegally, but whatever happed to our morals as a country. United States of What? United? hell, we can't even unite to find a suitable solution as far as helping those whose come into this country to seek and gaurantee a life of happiness.
Juans diatribes: " So to the citizens of Farmers Branch City I say go ahead and pass your anti-immigrant ordinances. This might slow down, but it will not stop the tide of the Latin influence in our American way of life."
"Like my grandfather used to say, put out your hand in friendship but keep your other hand on your 45"
Keep writing Juan, I like to hear about the Hispanic only that you subscribe to. At least Leti cares about other people in this world, something your incapable of doing.
57% of illegals come from Mexico
The next 27% come from all other Hispanic/Latino countries
The remaining percentage comes from all other countries throughout the world.
"What happened to the morals in this country"-----but yet you are defending and making excuses for lawbreakers and criminal activity?
What about the poor drug dealers----who only broke the law because they wanted to provide for their families?
Be sure to join this forum, it also has members from throughout the country. You will see that the MAJORITY in this country definitely believes the same as we do!!
http://www.saveourstate.org
Go to Forums>>>General Discussion
What would you do with illegal immigrants who have worked in the US at least five years?
Deport them. Enforce the law. 62.97 % (2646)
Send them home and offer a path to citizenship that puts them at the end of the line of applicants. 12.66 % (532)
Let them choose a guest-worker program with a time limit for their departure. 7.78 % (327)
Give them full citizenship. They're already established members of society.
5.40 % (227)
Throw them in prison. Entering the US illegally should be a felony.
4.81 % (202)
Send them home but offer a speeded-up citizenship process to encourage them to participate. 4.62 % (194)
Leave them alone. There are no good, legal answers so let it slide.
1.76 % (74)
Total votes: 4202 .
http://www.csmonitor.com/poll/index.php
Your type of bullshit is just what is wrong with this country. Everytime someone speaks out against illegal immigration, there is someone like you calling us xenophobic, racist and such.
The Constitution of the United States of America
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Poor Joan D. Your venom is showing to this Navy vet. *LOL*
Timothy, do you honestly believe that Juan is getting paid? Haven't you regarded what Juan said in this article? He extends a hand, and people come down on him. What's up with that?
Oh, I see.........If people who are "awake" don't believe that the illegal invasion/illegal invaders are good for this country, then they should not be able to post here??
To put it bluntly, who do you think that you are?
Juan extends a hand to only those who support the illegal invaders.
He also lends a hand to others who do not feel that we should demand learning our language and assimmilation into the melting pot----no matter where they come from.
I would love to hear intelligent and respectful support or opposition to my statement. I will not respond to insults or hate anymore.
This is absolutely true! While it is definitely one of the problems, it would be foolish to think it was the ONLY source of our problems.
Victoria: You make a very good point. Most of our ancestors did take this country from the original inhabitants. One might argue that it was our ancestors who did it and not us. But, I'm not sure that we would have behaved any differently given the same situation. I'm not sure how to fit that into my viewpoint. I will have to think on that. I would like to hear other respectful thoughts on that.
So Timothy now you are an empath and you can feel what I feel or don't feel, and can read my mind to see what I think or don't think .Perhaps I should start addressing you as Dianna Troy?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Any U.S. Citizen, or anyone for that matter, who advocates for illegal immigration should be charged with treason, and deported to Siberia once convicted. Advocating for illegal immigration is about as Un-American as one can get.
My stance against illegal immigration has cost me a lot of readership and some Gather connections. The days of my articles being featured on the Gather homepage are over. But quite frankly, I don't give a damn. I'm sticking to my guns no matter what it costs me.
You go!!! We are all now fighting to save our country!!! We may also be fighting to prevent civil war from breaking out in this country!!
I've learned a lot since joining Gather. I can even say some of my personal views have changed because people presented themselves very objectively...or I've reflected/reaffirmed why I feel the way I do in greater depth.
Isn't that why we joined Gather in the first place?
I'd be very curious to know more about Jackie Beltran and why she is for illegal immigration. She seemed a very intelligent, outspoken lady.
Liz, thank you for the kindest of words. I'm sure if you and I disagree on something, it will be with the utmost respect.
I guess in your limited mind and world, everyone must agree with you and must have the same hatred and animosity you demonstrate to everyone you find lacking, in order to be considered a true American. I pity the world and American where your philosophy would be considered the norm.
I do believe that there are an increasing number of individuals who are embracing the extremist philosophies of certain groups because they feel a certain kinship with their opposition to illegal immigration. Thus I find myself defending the connotation that somehow Latinos, specifically illegal immigrants are at the core of everything that is wrong in the U.S. In some individuals mind's this means that somehow I am justifying and advocating illegal immigration. I guess in these narrow-minded persons' viewpoints I must be a Mexican sympathizer, not a true American, a treasonous traitor that needs to be shot or hanged. "Not a True American" How many times have I been called this? I wonder if an American citizen who has my moderate views of immigration and did not have a Spanish last name, would be painted with the same brush of un-American and the same brush of treason?
Not having read the comments I say:
The world over, all of us are deserving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGRN15GUn8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCUu9JwbHP4&NR
You would think you would be embarassed to" Thus I find myself defending the connotation that somehow Latinos, specifically illegal immigrants are at the core of everything that is wrong in the U.S."
Don't you think it's time for you as an American to stand up for the sovereignity of this country instead of a bunch of thugs that would just as soon spit on you as to look at you? Check out this Url, This is what the invaders teach their children as to respect for America.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMiDZ8mzezw
Dude, I feel like going down there myself and immersing in the local social politics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VAmMQUBPWQ
Goto Chrispus Attucks Brig March LA 3/25/07 alongside of the above clip. This march that happened last weekend is just a pre-cursor of what is to take place in L.A. May 1st. If we as Americans don't take a take a stand on this invasion thats happening in America right now, Your children will never enjoy the freedoms that we have had for the past 230 years. This is not about local social politics Leti, this is about the whole of the U.S.A.
Not all of us have had the same freedoms as you, Bob...not until 42 years ago...
Oh, well, no wonder you're running around bitchy all of the time.
Bob I personal believe I am doing that exactly when I stand up to individuals such as Crazy Larry and those that embrace his intolerance and Xenophobic views. I know you actually believe what you state and there is no hidden agenda behind your anti- illegal immigration views however there also individuals and groups like Larry whose own words betray their denials of not having any racist agenda behind their rhetoric.
As for those accusations that I am aligning myself with anti-American groups, the only proper word to describe them is idiotic. Just because I do not preach hate or violence as the answer to the illegal immigration problem, this does not make me un-American or a treasonous traitor like Timothy is always accusing me of being. I do not burn or condone the desecration of the American flag, I have never flown a Mexican flag or that of any other country, I do not preach or advocate the idea of Mexico retaking the U.S. and its territories and I do not embrace any person or group that hold such philosophies, and again I challenge anyone to quote on word, phrase or comment that would dispute that. I do mean a specific quote and not some inference or ASSumption you believe my words mean. When I write, I always write in a straightforward manner thus no reasonably intelligent individual can walk away with a mistaken conclusion of my views.
It is at least nice to see how I was at least able to teach the proper way to use the term 3rd instead the kindergarten 3d term you used to use. Now if I could only teach you not hate so much.