Let's say I break into your house

Oh you just don't know how much I agree.

This is an e-mail thing, not original work.

Nippy.....As I saidf I received it froma friend...9by e-mail)...I liked the articel so i have published it here...!

Wow, this is one angry person. I realize it must be frustrating for someone who has gone through the process of legally coming into the country and gaining citizenship. I have a lot of admiration for those people. Unfortunately, this is a complex problem that all nations across the globe are facing as people from less developed countries (whether refugees or just seeking enough sustinance to survive) illegally cross over into developed countries. This analogy does not serve the complexity of the situation, though.

Simon and Mitch R, How big a house and yard do you have that it would be worth the cleaning and straightening to pay full cost of living, food, shelter, education, and retirement for even a husband and wife much less a husband wife and 2 or three kids? Do that for me and I will clean your house and do your yard work too.

And since when did they start that "if you are born here you are a citizen." nonsense anyway?

Umm...I think the native born = citizen thing started around 1789.

Bush is in Mexico selling us out again. Might as well welcome these criminals with open arms as they will be shoved down our throats anyway.
Dems and Reps both love this group of cheap labor for their big business masters.

Think any terrorists sneak across the borders?
If and when the next attack comes will our government take the blame?

Free Ramos and Compaen now!!!!!

Sorry nippy but thats a crock. It definitely was not the case in the early 80's. The rule then was " if one parent was a citizen and the birth took place in American territory the child was a citizen, if both parents were citizens then no matter where the birth took place the child was citizen, and if neither parent was a citizen it did not matter where the child was born it was not a citizen. I needed to know. My children's mother is not a citizen and we did not live in American territory when they were born. There was an out for the first case (one citizen parent, one not, birth outside the country) If the child was registered before 5 years, by the American parent at an American consulate or embassy, then they would have citizenship status as if born in American territory.
I suppose you realize that in 1789 the question would not have come up since to be here was to be a citizen (unless, of course your people had been here before Jamestown and Plymouth Rock, in which case you were merely a savage).

Mitch R., Does Al have nice stuff? Does he live above the coming new high water mark?, Do you speak Farsi? Will Punjabi do?

Mitch ... I see you like the part where someone else does the work. Do you also like supporting them and their family?

See this link to get an idea of what's happening: http://www.smalltowndefenders.com. One town trying to protect itself is being sued, not only by anonymous accusers (that's right, the town and mayor don't get to face their accusers), but the ever-popular ACLU and now the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. I guess Uncle Sam needs some landscaping work done.

Geeze< I'm glad I live in total security! I know I don't have to worry
about anything lkie that happening to me! Thanks for this story, it
was quite different Donald.

My grandmother was born around the turn of the twentieth century in NYC to recent immigrant (non-citizen) parents. She was a US citizen by birth. In dealings with Social Security etc all she was required to produce as proof of citizenship was a birth certificate.

BTW, in 1789 who were the "savages?"

OK, 1789 may not be right as far as written law. The principles of English Common Law, which we followed back in the day, recognized citizenship by birth. The 14th Amendment formally defined citizenship by birth. Title 8 of the US Code defines citizenship in much greater detail. For a plain English summary the following.

My grandmother could have run for president. She was a killer card player and knew how to squeeze a dollar so she might not have been too bad. First Jewish woman president. Sounds good to me.

o.k., one of my daughter's friends from MIT was born in Las Vegas in 1984 to two Chinese citizens who flew over here so he could be born on US soil. He has dual citizenship in US and China. AND he attended primary and secondary schools in England! Should she still be friends with him???

Excellent. Thank you for posting.

Gosh, most of her friends are, dare I say it?, non-Caucasian. Pakastani's, Indians, , Koreans, oh-my.

And now we are actually DEBATING whether or not to give in state tuition and financial aid to children of people here ILLEGALLY??!!! WTF?

Sorry Mitch R, these are not children born here. They came here with parents ILLEGALLY.

There is a lot of minds out there, lets think. Business and our goverment want illegals here, Americans don't.
How do the real Americans send their message? Don't hire illegal landscapers? We may not be able to ask for their proof but they can offer it or no job! BUT we will pay more, this is the killer. What if we concentrate on 1 group at a time, the whole country for a year?
What about businesses? How do we know? It won't be easy but if we the people don't act our Goverment will.
We have to have a way, THINK!

Hmm, interesting point Donald, using a house as an example. But what if that house does allow some people to break in & gives them green cards but not others? What if the house owners say you can stay here as you come from a house that is broken down, but you, who worked to make a wonderful house, you cannot stay in this house.

I was an illegal. I came to America as it is a land of opportunity, the land is beautiful, the choices the children are given (that they can be anything they want to be) is wonderful. I knew this was a 'house' where I would belong & get along with the family & contribute to make the house better. I tried to do it legally, but the laws were against me. So I had to lay low.

Now I am proud to say I am an American & I truly love this country, even though I feel the immigration system is very biased against certain countries & people. I have 2 daughters now that are also citizens & every day I think how lucky they are to be born her & to be able to grow up here.

It is a very touchy subject for me as I can see both sides. There does need to be some kind of control over immigration, but it seems like they change & bend the rules as they feel fit right now. All I ask is that they give the same opportunity to people of every land.

Were you even aware there is a green card lottery, but not all countries are permitted to enter. Do you know why? Research it, it makes no sense to me.

Stated with perfection...I agree

So do you have any more details about this. I would have a hundred questons as to the identity of these people. Let me know if you hear more. This is just not sounding right.

I checked out what I could and guess I was misinformed a bit back in the 80's The concept of 'born here, citizen here' was practiced from the beginning as it is based in English common law. It was 'established in law' here by a Supreme Court case in 1898. It is not the situation in every country and perhaps not in most but it is here. The problem I see with it is that it stems from a time when people were in effect the aristocracy's chattels. The aristocracy was under no obligation to maintain them so claiming each and every one you could possibly find an excuse to was a win-win for the aristocracy. Citizens had no particular rights or privileges except to work and die for the aristocracy so having all you could get was fine and if they went and insisted on getting born in your country then why shouldn't you have the right to tax them and send them to war and stuff. I think, had anyone 'back in the day' thought of citizens as consumers of community services instead of suppliers of same, they would have changed the rules. And hence the feeling against the 'illegals' now. They are seen by the majority, rightly or wrongly, as being government service consumers not suppliers. Except by the modern day aristocracy of course for whom everybody else is a supplier.

When 1 illegal comes in....that's illegal but America and the middle class can probably absorb it.
When 20 million comes in....that's illegal and America and the middle class CAN NOT absorb it.
Don't judge whats right by the businessman making millions off the illegals, judge it by the majority of the people, the middle class.
Even if everyone gets amnesty because it becomes the law, your still hurting the middle class and you don't care, you'll just keep on comming.
Don't play dumb and validate it by saying 'how is little ol me hurting the WHOLE middle class of America'?
How are the people your hurting supposed to act?
This is a land of opportunity providing you don't drop a bomb on us!
When 10 illegals cross, what are the good ones doing to keep out the bad ones?
You know the criminals, drug lords, drug smugglers, human smugglers, terrorists not to mention all the repeat offenders. And don't be double dumb and think I'm refering to just Mexicans. Are you concerned about any security, any fence any way of keeping America the land that attracted you?
Because if you have no concern then America will become what you ran from.

What do you mean 'coming'? They're already here! There's no 'Anybody who wants to can come' debate.

The only logical thing to do is to give them some kind of status so that they can contribute to their host country.

What good is keeping them in the shadows going to do anybody?

I've seen this before, Doc, and it's what I've been saying, too. Immigration is not complicated. You only enter a country legally, or you stay home. Period.

I hvae lived and owrked in other countries. Legally. With the correct visa. I wouldn't dream of breaking their laws. Nobody has a right to break my country's.

Sharon, you disgust me. If I'd known you then, I'd have dropped a dime on you. I have done that before and will do so again.

I have friends of sveral nationalities who are naturalized citizens. They came legally. One of my grandfathers was born a US citizen in the late 1800s of parents who immigrated *legally* from Scotland. He was born a citizen; his 4 older ssters were naturalized, as were his parents. My remaining 3 grandparents descend from people who immigrated between 1620 and 1735. Nobody broke the law.

Nobody gets to break it now, either. I favor very tough treatment of illegals, and would like to punish the likes of Sharon, too. Sneakiness (lay low = sneaky) is immoral and disgusting.

And yes, I'm willing to pay properly for a housekeeper who is a citizen, or at least a legal immigrant. Border breakers should be treated just like housebreakers. If they don't lilke the way it is in their ocuntryies, they need to stay there and do the same hard work we have done here to make their own countries better rather than trying to horn in on mine.

Senobia, Check out this Url and tell me again "What good is keeping them in the shadows going to do anybody":
http://aztlanrising.com/mos/view/News/Latest_News/How_the_pro-Migrant_Movement_Stopped_Fascism_and_How_to_Finish_the_Job/

This video happened last spring, do you still think that they only want jobs Americans won't do?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCCVUot-hBo

There's plans to do this again this year, only on a larger scale. I hope you live somewhere that your safe from this. Just keep saying to yourself (there's no place like home, there's no place like home.)

Bob....Senobia married an illegal immigrant. This came out in one of her previous threads.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Any American citizen who advoactes for illegal immigrants is either married to one, screwing one or more of them, hires one or more of them, or owns stock in companies who hire them.

//What do you mean 'coming'? They're already here! There's no 'Anybody who wants to can come' debate.

The only logical thing to do is to give them some kind of status so that they can contribute to their host country.//

Just because they are here does not mean they should STAY! That IS the debate, but there shouldn't BE a debate. We already have laws on the books, and it's long past time that they be ENFORCED!!! Senobia, I would start with your illegal husband, and you can join him with your kids.
No matter what or how you try to justify it, they are ILLEGAL and are NOT entitled to all that they demand from us.
Sure, our President and Congress may try to pass it off as any number of "good" ideas, but what they are trying to do amounts to AMNESTY, and those of us that would be forced to absorb the costs of that amnesty, cannot carry the load anymore.
I have said it a hundred times and I will continue to say it, "Don't come to our country and DEMAND from us, what we have worked and fought for." Take the money you would pay to a coyote, and the energy and drive you would expend or have expended, to come here and FIX YOUR OWN COUNTRY!!" Sure you might actually have to earn there, what you have TAKEN from us for free, but then you can stay in a place that you call home, with your language, culture, and traditions. You wouldn't have to "hide in the shadows" and best of all WE wouldn't have to support you.
What I have never understood is why these people can congregate and protest on OUR streets (without being rounded up and deported), yelling about what changes they DEMAND for OUR country, to benefit them, but they do NOT make those same demands in and from their OWN countries.
It is the working class American supporting these people, and we cannot do it anymore. Illegals are benefitting on the backs of hard working Americans, and it's time WE put a stop to it.
Our government will sell us out if we do not start making ourselves heard!!!
Why are all these various "amnesty" bills going through Congress, without the vote of the American people!!!

Thanks Timothy, I appreciate the heads-up. It seems to me that alot of the pro-illegal crowd are also immigration attorneys. Their the ones at the front gates of Washington lobbying like hell to get amnesty for the invaders. I guess there's a lot of money to be made on these derelicts. And now there's the oil for amnesty ploy that Bush is trying to finagle us into. And they say crime doesn't pay.

Anne...Right on !!!

Bob....I wonder how many of those you mentioned are on Gather ?? Senobia ?? Jackie Beltran ??

Here is a link to a poll that was provided by ALIPAC. Take a minute and let your voice be heard. It says right on the sight that it is not a scientific poll, but this publication has a wide reach, and this is another way to be heard. Lets answer as many polls, and post as much info as we can. Our government continues to claim that most Americans want a way to keep the illegals here, but the surveys I have taken or researched, show that to be an out and out lie.

The Christian Science Monitor publication is running an online poll that asks..

"What would you do with illegal immigrants who have worked in the US at least
five years?"

http://www.csmonitor.com/poll/index.php?poll_id=483

The only thing to do is give them status????? You must be out of your mind. The only thing to to do is put em on a boat, plane, train or bus and send them back to where they came from. Why should anyone, who's very first act upon entering American soil, is to commit a felony, be given any status other than "inmate"?

Sharon thank you for letting all of us know you are a felon. You were not an undocumented worker, or undocumented immigrant. You were an ILLEGAL ALIEN. The fact that you didn't commit any more felonies, or at least get caught, after you gained illegal access to this country does not change that fact. I find it shocking that anyone would have the nerve to stand up and throw in the faces of people who came here legally, the fact that they didn't. You should be ashamed. How many people did you cut in front of in the line to get into this country? People who are welcome here, because they have the respect for our country to abide by it's laws. You piss on all those people and all of the people who live here legally and then proudly flaunt your didain for them. You are a disgrace to everyone who has ancestors who legally emigrated to this country. You in effect are calling them suckers and fools for playing by the rules. The only job you should have been given was making small rocks out of big ones for 10 years or so. Then talk to me about naturalization.

A felony?

You're the PERFECT poster child for Stupid, chris, and a PERFECT example of how far fetched, asinine, and ridiculous the anti-immigration bellowers have become.

Illegal immigration is a CIVIL MATTER, which is why detained ones are DETAINED and called DETAINEES rather than ARRESTED and called INMATES.

Bob, while I thought chris had the market cornered on stupid in this (non)debate, looking at what you posted, I can only assume you're in the running, too. I didn't watch you video, but I'm going to assume it's the May 1st marches with the 40yo speech from Jose Angel Gutierrez dubbed over it to make it look like a recent 'uprising'.

Get a clue. Get a grip. But most importantly, get new material. Material that hasn't been rehashed, regurgitated, and rewritten to futher your weakening cause in the form of some anti-Hispanofacist scare tactic.

Illegal immigration is NOT a crime, it's a civil matter.

Senobia, May first is just around the corner, you know, communist day. I'll have some brand new stuff for you to look at.
Since when is illegal immigration not a crime, what did you do? Change the law.

Senobia, Before you start calling people stupid get your facts straight. Entering the USA through illegal means is a crime. It's not a parking ticket. It's a crime. The fact that our policy has been to not prosecute it doesn't change the fact. No matter how much you wish we were Mexico we aren't. Google it Senobia and let's talk about who is uninformed. Why do you think they are called ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. If you were correct they would be called temporarily univited guests. An uninvited guest is a burglar in your home and an ILLEGAL ALIEN in your country. Try getting caught in China without a visa. Just tell them your an undocumented visitor, For crying out loud you can't even get through customs in Aruba until you show them you have a return plane ticket to leave!

Stupid? To sit idly bu while your country,your culture and your entire way of life is slowly being eroded by foreign nationals is stupid. But then again that probably doesn't matter to you. This probably isn't your culture anyway is it? Your just here to take advantage of the opportunity and piss on those who gave you that and everyoine else in this country that opportunity. You also need to look up the meaning of facist if your going to throw around made up words like Hispanofacist at least try to bastardize English properly.

Are you a native American, Chris? I really don't think Mexicans or any one else can treat this country with any worse distain than us white anglos do. We let George Bush declare war on the world. We let him allow people of color to languish on rooftops for days during Katrina. We let the whole lot in congress lie to us, steal from us, and take away our civil rights. As a white, Christian, gainfully employed, tax paying American. - I'm ashamed.

NEWSFLASH!

This is the US - not Aruba. Not China.

Lucky for you Senobia, that this IS the US!! You and your illegal husband would already be in a prison worse than anything we Americans could ever dream of!!!
You should really curb your name calling, you are not so intelligent yourself. Many of us do plenty of research before we claim knowledge of certain facts.

Gearge Bush declared war on the world?? I must have missed the news flash, Could you reference that article for me Moira? Of course you can't more hyperbole from a hysterical self hating liberal. If you hate this country so much Moira leave. I'll buy your ticket. The Muslim world has been at war with us for years, it's just that because of PC nitiwts like you we aren't allowed to say it. Keep up your hysterical screed, you are doing the work for the people who want us dead. They don't need armies to invade this country because dimwitted simpletons like you all they have to do is walk across the border and breed like the cockroaches so many of them are. You and your allies in the mainstream media are either to stupid (in your case) or are truly seditious (the media) to try to stop it. That would be bad enough, but instead you want to open the floodgates all the way. If we allow this to continiue unabated this country will be unrecognizable in 50 years. Ever been to Tijuana Moira? How bout Mexico City? Probably not. They make the nastiest ghettos of New York and LA look like paradise. That is what these leeches from south of the border are exporting to this country. The one thing I will agree on is that GW Bush has been a disgrace in his handling of the ILLEGAL ALIEN situation. Allowing Vincenze Fox to dictate to us what and how our immigration laws should be enforced is absolutely ludricous. Since when have we abdicated oversight of the hen house to the weasels? They can't build that wall fast enough or high enough to seal off the leaking cess pool of garbage that leaks across our southern border every day.

The funny thing is for the most part the people who defend these criminaliens either do it with a spanish accent or come from large northern cities that are largely SO FAR unaffected relatively speaking by this infestation.

1. not all illegal immigrants come here illegally. some become illegal after their visas expire. so let's say a guest comes into your house and you welcome them in and you give them breakfast and help them find a job. they become your friend and build up a big group of friends. then, after a few years, their 'friend' status expires so you have to kick them out.

2. English is not YOUR language. It is not America's language. Americans are rather ethnocentric when it comes to 'their' language. They're also quite foolish about not wanting to learn another language. Most educated people in the world can speak more than language. Except for in the USofA.

3. Why kick them out? Why not help them become citizens?

Steven, You answered your own question No. 1; so let's say a guest comes into your house and you welcome them in and you give them breakfast and help them find a job. they become your friend and build up a big group of friends. then, after a few years, their 'friend' status expires so you have to kick them out." With No. 3;
3. Why kick them out? Why not help them become citizens?

If you were a friend, thats excactly what you would do. These other illegal invaders don't even slow down enough to stop and get a Visa. Don't you "see" anything wrong with that? Do you think for one minute these people would take you in, as a human being, in their own countries if you were destitute and didn't have any money to give them?

bob - what they would do with me doesn't affect in the slightest what i would do with them.

larry - i'm not afraid of losing possessions or money, so sure, let them all become citizens. i would assume you'd have known we can tax them, hence raising government money, which i really couldn't care less about. an also, i never said we should go and recruit citizens so your proposition is foolish and irrelevant. also, not all 'illegals' are spanish, hence, learning spanish isn't for communicating with "a bunch of invaders". if anything, learning another language -- any language -- is great for one's own knowledge. but knowledge doesn't get you more things, so i suppose we should do away with that as well.

Steven, lets just say it, you are a loving, giving saint, and those of us that are fed up with CONSTANTLY giving, and having our backs broken beneath the burden, are just selfish, uncaring, heartless racists.
I for one, choose not to stay in a place that I am not wanted, so if I were to go to Mexico and be treated as Bob Stated
// Do you think for one minute these people would take you in, as a human being, in their own countries if you were destitute and didn't have any money to give them?//
I would not stay, but evidently you would//
bob - what they would do with me doesn't affect in the slightest what i would do with them.//
and most likely hand over everything you owned, because that's what a saint would do.

anne - you make no to little sense.

see also: the straw man fallacy

Now let's say that one day a man appears on you doorstep and demands that you leave your house. When you refuse, he becomes threatening. You run in to your kitchen, pick up a knife to defend yourself and your house. However the intruder has a gun and shoots you to death. Your wife, children and elderly parents are sent away while the intruder takes over your property.

The police doesn't care and the judicial system never sees the case. Instead most people view your family as a problem since they are poor, uneducated and have problems supporting themselves.

Now imagine that you are in fact an Indian and the intruder a caucasian immigrant from Europe...

"I suppose you realize that in 1789 the question would not have come up since to be here was to be a citizen (unless, of course your people had been here before Jamestown and Plymouth Rock, in which case you were merely a savage). "

EXCUSE ME????? Quite frankly, anyone who wants to take that stance can kiss my American Indian butt!

That's certainly an interesting point to say the least, but it does ignore a large portion of issues surrounding the situation. Let's continue the metaphor, shall we?

Let's say you break into my house.

I worked hard to earn that house. I came from nothing, earned money, built that house from the ground up by myself. That was nobodies money but my own. That was nobodies work but my own. I alone own that property. As a free man living in America, that house and the land it sits on is mine. Unless I declare bankruptcy or something else along a similar line, I will not lose that house. It is mine.

Let's say you break into my house.

I load my gun and shoot you dead. That's my house. You were a criminal for entering it. It's my property. I feared for my life when you set foot into my small, isolated little piece of security. I wanted to protect myself, and I wanted to protect my family. I didn't want to hurt you, but my desire to protect the ones I love was more important than the discomfort produced by taking your life.

However, America is not a house. Like all other countries, it's a place of individual government and leadership. A large body of land full of houses, millions of them, for all those within and enough space for millions more. It's a community of people who sometimes like each other and sometimes don't Some people you know, some you don't. Some you spend time with, some you don't. But it's a collection of houses all the same, and though I can walk down the street within this neighborhood, I am not allowed to walk straight into any house but my own, unless I'm invited to do so.

America is a neighborhood.

Now imagine this. I am born in a neighborhood where bullets are constantly whizzing outside my door. I live in such an unsafe place that I cannot even lift my head off the ground without fear of a stray round ripping open my skull. When I hear a car pass outside my house, I pray to the God I lost hope in years ago that it isn't someone coming to drag me off and kill me for being born into a different belief system than himself. I grow up here, from child to man, and every second of every day I am afraid. I can't ever have children, because what awful person would bring a child into a life of such misery?

But then I hear that in the neighborhood several miles away, there is more room, there are less people, and there are laws that would never let what's happening to me ever happen to its citizens. So I leave this place, because I am human and I am afraid, just like the people who are living in the neighborhood several miles away would be if they were in my situation. But when I get there, I find it to be a gated community. And the gates are locked. The guards are waiting. When I arrive, they tell me to go home. I refuse, because I am scared, because I want a life for my children, because I don't want to die for nothing. But I am not allowed in. I am escorted home by armed guards, and placed back inside my house. Everyone has seen me march through the neighborhood that I tried to escape. Everyone watched me go. Nobody will talk to me now for fear of being associated with me. I cannot work, I cannot trade, I cannot survive. And then one day, because the people in my neighborhood wish for nothing more for themselves than I did for me, they come to my door, drag me outside, and murder me for running away. They take my insides out, and bleed me dead just because of the simple fear of being considered my friend when the truly terrible people come rolling back through our neighborhood.

Would you not let that person into your country?

Would you not let that person into your home?

If not, then think of this:

The statue of liberty its self, which sits at the gates of America, standing tall and proud welcoming all that pass her by, the symbol of hope for the entire world, reads:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Perhaps you would prefer we string some neon lights that read "No Vacancy" over that inscription instead?

James R. Mitchener
http://mitchenermind.blogspot.com