You're so "articulate" ... for an African American

Gil, well written, but I'd have to disagree on some level. The world in general is dumbing down (or maybe just Americans). These days, I'm amazed when I can call a white person articulate.

Good grief, the man *is* articulate. Most people aren't. If there's any subtext it's a slam to ol' mush mouth G.W. When is it going to be OK to talk about black (or in this case, mixed) people just like you would any other human being without it being a race issue? THAT'S when true equality can happen.

Joanne, LOL, you're absolutely right -- it's wonder anymore when ANYONE is articulate!

J., you have a good point, and I would say in some or maybe even many cases, when someone says of Obama that he's articulate, that they mean he's articulate as a human being, or as a politician. But I suspect that many people -- even unconsciously, not meaning to be racist -- say it about Obama when they wouldn't say it about, hmm, Hilary, or John Edwards. Now, Bush, he's something else altogether. No one would accuse him of being articulate ... :-)

I also await the day when people can be described in terms such as "articulate" without having the specter of race hovering above the dialogue. I don't think that day's here yet, but it's coming!

Gil;

I take your point, and it is a fair one.
However as a white man who has worked with minorities all his life, (my first NON-family job was shining shoes in a shoe shop managed by a black man who is still a dear friend), lived with some at times and known many fine people that way I submit to you that between 'gangtsaism', 'ebonics', and what has passed for black 'culture' the last ten or fifteen years what once may have been racism is (in some cases), now simply observation.

BTW, J., the reason I prefer to think of Obama as being African American is that he has made the conscous decision to identify with that side of his family, and because hundreds of years of American history tells us that even being partially African has meant that a person is black, with all the unfortunate circumstances that identity might bring.

It's only in recent decades, with the mixed-race heritage of Asian communities (following wars with Japan, Korea and Vietnam, thanks in large part to GIs stationed in Asia) that the idea of a "Hapa" identity has become, acceptable, and even hip. Now I see mixed-race African Americans calling themselves Hapa and I think that's really col.

I sense Obama has chosen his blackness out of political necessity as well as self-identity. That's his call. The African American population certainly (mostly) is happy to think of him as a "black" candidate. I wonder if the rest of the country can accept him as a great candidate, period!

Lloyd, you make a fair point too. Those pop culture affectations -- hip-hop, gangstaism and ebonics -- certainly make it easy for non-blacks to pigeonhole blacks in general as being or acting a certain way, and comments about that can be observational, not judgmental. But white "mainstream" American culture, as Joanne pointed out, has also dumbed down with violence and illiteracy. But we still assume that white politicians have attained a level of "articulateness" that we don't assume of politicians of color.

I know you agree with me on the larger point, so I'm definitely not picking a fight here, Lloyd. But don't we all think of Bush as the exception among politicians as being a dumb president and a poor speaker (I'm making an overstatement here)? So why would we make a point of saying a politician who happens to be black is "articulate"?

The NYT article I link to above is thought-provoking because it raises the question from African Americans' perspective....

This is such an important topic to discuss! Thanks, Lloyd, J. and Joanne!

Touche, Susan. Stereotypes -- especially the ingrained, insidious, low-level ones that aren't in-your-face like segregation or lynching or land laws (which prevented Asians from owning property 100 years ago) -- still exist every day, whether they're based on race, class, privilege, sex, sexual orientation, size (weight and height), ability.... Those are the battles that still need to be fought, despite critics' contention that society's becoming overly sensitive and politically correct.

It kills me when people (and I don't only mean blacks) think of "ebonics" as a legitimate form of English, and think that the rest of the world should learn it as a dialect. It may have its place in the rap culture, but it's not English. (I know... my daughter thinks she's a gangsta girl and loves talking this way just to annoy me.) Remember, we live in Detroit. There are those who choose to speak that way, but only in the 'hood. When they come to work here, they speak articulately! (and I'm talking about my lily white daughter!) I'm just wondering what the rest of the world thinks of us, the US.

Susan, you're blonde? Really? ;-)

fair enough Gil.

I can sooooo relate to this! This is something I've been dealing with my whole life. People sometimes seem genuinely shocked when I speak, as though they expect me to sound like Rosie Perez. I am constantly asked if where I was raised, what kind of school I went to, and (most insulting) if all of my friends are white.

My parents speak proper English, and so did their parents. If I had ever come home speaking ebonics, or any kind of slang for that matter, I would have gotten a smack in the head.

I think the movie, Crash, brings it all together and should be required viewing for all human beings. No matter how culturally aware or progressively minded we may think or feel we are, the majority of us still harbor stereotypes about other cultures that have been ingrained into ourselves through sheer ignorance, fear, and society.

So many times, I have heard that I speak "so well", or have been told that I "sound white" over the phone and it still amazes me to no end. It just hammers home to me that although we have come so far from the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement to now, we still have a very long way to go. We need to be brutally honest with ourselves, as how we may inadvertantly or unknowingly perpetuate stereotypes, such as the comment made by Sen. Biden.

Biden needs to throw in the towel. He got KO'd before the bell even rang.

Forget about "articulate." The "clean" comment was what captured my attention. This really means he's a light skinned black - almost white. Biden trashed his hopes right there.

Will you people shut up - you have got to really hate white people to want to trash a career over a little dumb comment ... I just wish some of you would have to get in front of the national media and speak, either scripted or non-scripted ... maybe you might have a different play on things. Here we are commenting on movies to decide reality ... people make sincere comments based on their experiences and what they can get out at the time ... vote how you want but to me that is so NOTHING compared to what the job of president ought to be about. You just seem to want to be happy with someone who can fool you 100% of the time.

Biden has had a few unfortunate, for him anyway, choice of words before. Politicians are such an open book anymore to the media, I'm surprised they talk at all. I'm not a big fan of Biden or anything, but I don't think he is racist. Could there be something in his subconscious that made him speak that way..perhaps, but was it a willing put down of some kind? Calling it subtle racism is wrong I think, unless his actions of the past in some way back that up. I don't know if he is or not actually.
By the way, I guess I'm going to have to ask or it will bug me. What is "Hapa", or what does it mean? Thanks.

>> I'm not a big fan of Biden or anything, but I don't think he is racist.

Yes .... the exact point, this is a pointless use of the "race card" either for the advancement of Barak Obama, or worse some other candidate who hopes to mortally wound Biden, or even worse by the media just to prove it can set the mechanics of how we think to vote for president, or make the Democrats seem fragmented and irrelevent. I cannot think of anything positive for anyone in attacking Biden, if he does not appeal to enough people he will be gone soon enough ... it is not as if he was trying to winkingly appeal to racist whites - which does not work anymore anyway ... racism is gone to be replaced with classism and it is a huge disservice to call it racism to keep the country from dealing with the real problem.

Great discussion, everyone -- tanks!

John, "hapa" is a word that's becoming more and more common, to describe people of mixed-race, especially Japanese Americans or Asian Americans, but also other ethnic backgrounds as well. The word is Hawaiian in origin, but is now widely used.

Here's a column I wrote in 2002 about "hapa" (I used to spell it with two"p"s but now I use the accepted spelling with one "p"):
http://nikkeiview.com/nv/archives02/030402.htm

James ... how can you really blame the native americans for taking shots at whites and the american system. we have destroyed their way of life, and their culture. we have done that to so many people's, and yet while we now have changed to the point of at least trying to be inclusive of these people and other minorities, how much they feel? While racism in my viewpoint has been rendered negative in all polite and enlightened areas of society, the little residues of it have got to have huge effects on people whose pasts included this kind of history ... I don't think people get over that so easily, but certainly some people do.

What I think is coming is the realization by whites that they really are in no special place when it comes to anything, not the middle class. What we have constructed by pledging our allegience to money and profits is the skill of creating production by giving as little value to anything but the ultimate product, and extracting the maximum profit from the sale of it as possible.

Meaning that while we create so many new jobs in food service, there is nothing that a food service person can add their skill set. They do not learn how to cook. They do not learn computers or how to manage. They are machine replacements until a cheaper machine comes in to take their place.

The extraction of any value from the work itself of the intrgration of the industry into the world merely extracts what wealth is still left and concentrates it in the hands of an elite of investors ... which is increasingly more monolithic and politically powerful, yet incompetant when it comes to building our country and making it strong.

There intention therefore could be assumed to be hostile to any country, any locality and only focused on politcal control, first controlling money, and then all political power.

When people of America and the rest of the world realize, if they ever do, realize that their plight is more and more in common with the 3rd world even though they are slightly richer and are used to thinking they are better, then what happened in the early 1900s with unions and the social contract may again happen if people can work together and demand to be treated fairly.

This is not a racial/racist thing, and attempts to squeeze racism out of it slow down the process that the minorities ought to be trying to speed up.

This is a great topic for discussion and I have mixed feelings. I have mentioned Senator Obama's hypnotizing diction and impressive diplomacy many times and never considered my comment a reference to him as anything other than a great orator and man. Maybe that is because I know many people of different races and ethnicities and, in my experience, race and ethnicity do not determine whether or not a person enunciates properly or chooses words carefully. I am equally impressed with some white speakers and make the same comments about them.

As J golden said, the man is ARticulate, and there are so many that are not. It is a sad commentary when everyone has to try and find some reason to say that someone is being prejudice or insulting. We need to worry more about our own lives and how we live them, before we spend time trying to figure other's motives and reasons.

Everyone gets on bandwagons just to be part of the in crowd, and do not realize that they are hurting people more than helping, and this is one case concerning the "articulate" comment that is hurting more than helping people by blowing it out of proportion.

Maybe when people stop thinking of each other as hyphenated-Americans, we'll finally be over this racism thing, hm?

I think you're reading too much into it and race-baiting. Take it for what it's worth Obama is articulate...so was JFK and Winston Churchill and Desmond Tutu...on the other hand Dubya's not articulate...nor is Rummy...nor is the Wild Man from Borneo. Some politicos are good speakers...other's can barely speak at all.

this articles was not written well. I gave it a 1. I expected much more, the title was good, but the aricle, not so much!