Murray,Ky : Fisher Price closes their Murray, Ky factory and moves their operations to Mexico. There was severance pay and education assistance for the American employees who were released, however the plant closing forced appx 1400 American workers out into the already deperssed job market of Calloway County. Many of the former Fisher Price employees found jobs at Murray's Briggs and Stratton factory, however Briggs and Stratton has now layed of all employees hired since 2003, thus forcing the former Briggs employees as well as some of the former Fisher Price employees again out into the depressed job market of the area. Most of them did find jobs however. They are working 2 or 3 partime minimum wage jobs just to keep their heads above water. Most of them have lost their homes and cars and are now walking to work. I see them walking across my parking lot on their way to jobs 2 or 3 after a long night of work at Wal-Mart. The lucky ones are riding bicycles. This is GOOD for America.
Mayfield, Ky : General Tire closes their Mayfield, Ky plant after more than 25 years of operation forcing thousands of American workers out into the already depressed job market of Graves County. The result of the General Tire plant's closing was a 10% unemployment rate for Mayfield. There are empty buildings all over town. Many buisnesses have had to close their doors. This once thriving community has been reduced to a virtual ghost town. As reported to me by the Kentucky State Police, the local chicken plant in Mayfield has a work force that consists of appx 75 % illegal immigrants. This is GOOD for America.
Fulton, Ky : Dana Corporation has announced the closing of their Fulton, Ky plant, thus forcing appx 100 American workers out into the already highly depressed job markets of Fulton and Hickman counties. On a personal note, Fulton is my home town, and my only hope of going back there is retirement, that is if there is any Social Security or 401 K left by then. Again, this is GOOD for America.
India: The company that I work for uses HSBC Bank for our customer's credit cards. When we call in a credit application, we are talking to someone in India. I know this to be a fact because I ask the person whom I'm talking to where they live, and they always tell me that they live in India. I wonder how many of the people who worked at the factories that I listed above would love to have a job answering the phone and processing credit applications ? Again, this is all GOOD for America.
China: Just walk up and down the aisles of your local retailer and tell me how many of the products are made in the U.S. vs China. Importing Chinese made goods is GOOD for America. Putting American employees out of work is GOOD for America.
Corporate Capitalism: The company that I work for pays $5.40 for entry level employees, a bit above minimum wage. The high temperature today was 25 f. One of our employees called me from her cellphone to let her in to work. When I let her in, I noticed that she only had a sweatshirt on. When I asked her where her coat was, she said that she didn't own a coat. She does have a car though, a mid 1990's Dodge Intrepid that is beaten all to heck, and she owes money on that car. She is better off than most of our employees who walk or ride bicycles to work. At least she has some plastic over the windows of her car to keep the cold out. This is GOOD for America.
So let's close more factories, pay minimum wage ( and God Forbid that we raise that ), outsource American jobs, import more goods from China and hire illegal immigrants to do the jobs that the Americans ( won't do ) who I listed above have lost. This is all GOOD for America.
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Comments: 129
Marilee, the "smart" Americans are already being forced to support the not so smart families...but, when the illegals have finished off the middle class completely, and there are only two classes, the rich and the poor, I hope I'm not alive to see the end results...
Updated 9/06
"
One of the overlooked ways in which immigration harms the American workforce is displacement, that is, when natives lose their jobs to recent immigrants who will work for substandard wages.
Sometimes the employer intentionally replaces natives with immigrants to have a cheaper, more easily exploited workforce. Sometimes the displacement comes through an intermediary. In these cases, work may be delegated out to subcontractors. The firms that use immigrants - and pay them low wages - underbid other subcontractors that use natives. In some cases, the ultimate employer may not even be aware that native workers have been displaced. Regardless, the effects on Americans are real. As the Immigration and Naturalization Service put it: "The critical potential negative impacts of immigrants are displacement of incumbent worker groups from their jobs and wage depression for those who remain in the affected sectors."1
The web of complex interactions among factory openings and closings, choice of production methods, ethnic networking in hiring, and labor subcontracting make it difficult to prove iron-clad cases of displacement. Yet such evidence does exist.
One well-documented case of displacement happened in the tomato industry in the 1980s. A group of unionized legal border crossers picked the tomato crop for many years in San Diego County and were making $4.00 an hour in 1980. In the 1980s, growers switched to a crew of illegal aliens and lowered the wage to $3.35. Almost all the veteran workers who were unwilling to work at the reduced rate disappeared from the tomato fields.2
Agriculture has many other instances of employers' switching to immigrant workers (legal and illegal) to increase their profits. For example, Hispanic migrants have displaced native black workers in the Georgia peach industry,4 and migrants have replaced natives and previous immigrants in the cucumber and apple industries in Michigan.5 The melon industry slashed its mechanized packing houses in favor of manual packing in the field, eliminating unionized crews of mostly native workers and assigning their work to lower paid Mexican field crews.6
In the furniture industry, competition from immigrant-laden plants in Southern California closed all the unionized plants in the San Francisco area and removed natives from the workforce in favor of underpaid aliens.7
In the last 20 years, the meatpacking industry has completely reorganized around the use of immigrant rather than native labor. IBP, the nation's leading meatpacking company, now recruits workers from Mexico and directly along the border. As a result, the proportion of the labor force protected by union contracts and the share of natives in meat processing has dropped dramatically.8
Unions fall before the weight of imported labor. In the Mission Foods tortilla factory strike, management lowered wages by 40 percent, and when the native labor went on strike, the Mexican managers intentionally brought in newly immigrated strikebreakers to replaced them. Some of the natives returned to work at the reduced wages but most left.9
Similar phenomena have swept over the hotel industry as well, with immigrant workers displacing native black workers en masse.10 In Los Angeles, unionized black janitors had been earning $12 an hour, with benefits. But with the advent of subcontractors who compose roaming crews of Mexican and El Salvadoran laborers, the pay dropped to the then minimum wage of $3.35 an hour. Within two years, the unionized crews had all been displaced by the foreign ones, and without any other skills, most of the native workforce did not find new work.11
Andrew Sum, director of the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in Boston, says 56 percent of the rise in U.S. employment from 2000 to 2005 can be attributed to undocumented immigrants. In the same period, he says jobs disappeared for U.S.-born adults aged 16 to 24 and African-Americans without college degrees. "The greater the influx of illegal immigrants into any state, the greater the employment loss among people under the age of 35, particularly men without college degrees." 12
Many politicians and some citizens do not concern themselves with such displacement since it affects primarily low-skilled Americans, who tend to lack political clout. As a result, immigration has been responsible for 40 to 50 percent of the wage depression for workers without a high school degree in recent decades.13 In an article on the effects of illegal immigration in North Carolina that claimed that it is not proven that illegal workers hurt job opportunities for American workers, data from the state's Employment Security Commission were reported that show lagging wage increases in industries known to hire many illegal workers, i.e., construction, cleaning and maintenance, and food preparation. "While the average hourly wage increased 97 cents for all triad workers, from $15.69 to $16.66 during the past 30 months, it rose in high-immigrant occupations as little as 3 cents in food preparation to as much as 83 cents in cleaning and maintenance."14 Some estimates indicate that nearly two million Americans a year are displaced by immigration.15
Americans deserve decent jobs at decent wages, not unfair competition from imported foreign workers who are exploited to the point of indentured servitude. We need immigration reform to stop the massive influx of foreign workers from harming the living standard of our most vulnerable citizens."
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersd1fb
Updated 1/05
"High-immigration cheerleaders claim that we need immigration for our economy. But they ignore the detrimental effect that importing workers has on American workers, particularly low-skilled natives. In a supply and demand economy like ours, the more there is of something, the less value it has. By artificially inflating the number of workers in our country, immigration lowers the value of workers, and wages are depressed. As George Washington University economics professor Robert Dunn notes, "I know business people who tell me they're not interested in hiring Americans because the people who come from outside are cheaper. But ... if there's an unlimited supply of labor facing this country from outside, from the South or wherever, at five dollars an hour, I don't care how fast this economy grows, the wage rate for such people is going to be five dollars an hour!"
Some employers claim that they need to import low-skilled workers to compete in the world market, where wages are very low. But those employers have simply become dependent on cheap foreign labor to the detriment of American workers: "Network recruitment [of immigrants] not only excludes American workers from certain jobs; it also builds a dependency relationship between U.S. employers and Mexican sources that requires a constant infusion of new workers," says economist Philip Martin.4 Such a strategy for our economy is doomed to failure anyway: "The low-wage strategy may work in the short run, but in the long run it's a loser. In the long run, we are not going to win a wage-cutting contest with the Third World," notes economist Vernon Briggs.5
Besides, the United States already has plenty of low-skilled native workers: "No technologically advanced industrial nation that has 27 million illiterate adults ... need have any fear about a shortage of unskilled workers in its foreseeable future."6
The effects are most pronounced in the cities where immigrants go. High immigration cities have twice as much unemployment as low immigration cities.7 Because too much immigration keeps wages low, wage increases in low-immigration cities have been 48 percent higher than in high-immigration cities.8 Thus, immigration contributes to the growing disparity between the rich and the poor in this country9 and the shrinking of the middle class.10 But the damage is not confined to high-immigration locales. The harm is carried to other cities when poor Americans whose wages have been depressed or who have been displaced from their jobs by immigration move to low-immigration areas in search of greener pastures.
The effect of immigration on those low-skilled Americans is profound, and the government knows it: "Undoubtedly access to lower-wage foreign workers has a depressing effect [on wages]," says former Labor Secretary Robert Reich.12 Research suggests that between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers.13 Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year."
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters8f44
Updated 10/02
"Proposals for "guestworker" programs that would allow millions of foreign citizens to work in the U.S. guarantee that U.S. taxpayers will get the short end of the stick:
--Guestworkers displace American workers and lower American workers' wages and working conditions in certain job sectors.
--Guestworker programs are a drain on the tax system.
--Guestworkers rarely go home.
--Any guestworker program that involves "earned legalization" is an amnesty, a reward for law-breaking that is vociferously opposed by the American public.
"A guestworker program would perpetuate the lowering of real wages in sectors where there are today large numbers of illegal aliens. Additional foreign workers would push down wages and working conditions still further.
With a new guestworker program open to all industries—not just agriculture and IT—millions of native workers will find their jobs, their wages, and their working conditions threatened by competition from foreign workers.
MASSIVE HIDDEN COSTS
--In the proposed guestworker programs, who would pay for the health care of the participants and their dependents—and how?
--What about Social Security payments? Will employers have to pay them even though the guestworkers won't be eligible to receive benefits? Or will the program give millions of foreign citizens access to our already overburdened Social Security system?
--If guestworkers are permitted to bring their families, will employers pay for the schooling of the guestworkers' children, or will that cost be borne by taxpayers?
History shows that "guestworkers" rarely go home.
Millions of aliens are likely to "qualify" for a guestworker program by using false documentation of their eligibility, and eligibility will just as hard to disprove.
Even the Urban Institute, traditionally supportive of mass immigration in its various forms, has cast serious doubts on the idea of a guestworker program, arguing that for any program to function as it should, three conditions would have to be met:11 Illegal immigration would have to be nearly eliminated, employers of guestworkers would have to endure additional taxes and levies that would minimize foreign workers' competitive advantage over natives, and economic incentives would have to drive guestworkers to return to their home countries. It's highly unlikely that any of these conditions will be met, let alone all of them."
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0787
If the country was not being flooded by illegals, they would not be bringing down the wages of many occupations and/or eliminating jobs. If the illegals were not in the picture----someone who got in the construction industry ten years ago at $10 an hour would probably be making at least $16 an hour by now due to advancement opportunities and increased skill level. However, illegals enable companies to have an endless supply of $10 an hour workers, telling employees who feel that they deserve more to get lost---as there will be someone who will do the job for a lot less money.
You are advocating for US citizens/workers to be satisfied at whatever level our government determines we should be at---and be happy with---as a middle class American citizen. No financial reward for experience, skills, etc.---just be satisfied with the staus quo.
In our economy, what measured an individual's success/financial achievements ten years ago should definitely be different than their current status. Our economy is set up---work hard, and you are "supposed" to be financially rewarded.
I've tried to get this across by telling people that the jobs we have lost to illegals were what many of us did when we were kids. Not only are the jobs being lost to low wage workers, but the up grading of the jobs that employers were forced to do to pay fewer higher paid workers and make the work safer is being put aside for manual workers instead of better trained and making a living wage.
One good example everyone can see just by looking up is roofing. I worked at this job as a kid when it was very hard and dangerous, and in later years watched it become mechanized to use very few workers and with safe working conditions. Case in point two or three workers could roof a house because they had conveyors and other devices such as automatic nailers to do the work. No one had to climb a high ladder with roofing on their backs like when I was young. Now watch all those people working on one roof with ladders and hammers as the only tools. The employers gave up using few trained workers for the low cost help now available.
This has to stop before all Americans are out of work and waiting for a dole check from the goverment to live on. There goes American, The home of the brave and the free, and forget about the mis-nomer of being a place where everyone is rich. It just is not going to happen.
Maybe Timothy or someone should gather up all these high comment posts and keep sending them to our too high paid people in goverment.
There are millions and millions of other people whose jobs aren't threatened by illegals. Their jobs are threatened by the cost of production. And if companies can't produce an affordable product they will find ways to cut costs or go out of business. Our societies demand for cheaper goods drives that practice. If you take credit card applications over the phone and expect to make a wage that supports a middle-class lifestyle then don't be surprised if your job disappears. If you feel that's unfair or un-American then prepare yourself to pay a couple more interest points on that credit card. It's like that across the board. Wages drive prices. I'm not advocating a status quo, I'm pointing it out.
Only more violent.
"We the people" MUST take our government back.
Fisher-Price moving to Mexico? Let's BOYCOTT their asses and let the POOR Mexicans buy their shit!!!
It just never ends with these people. Bluntly, who the "F" do these people think that they are?
Now they are going to demand and dictate to us that we cannot enforce our laws? What the *ell is going on in this country. Do those morons that sit in political positions--Democrat and Republican-- actually think that LEGAL US citizens are going to let their livelihood and country be taken right from under them without a fight?
I feel a civil war/revolution brewing in this country---as more and more LEGAL US citizens have opened their eyes and are saying "ENOUGH".
I agree with H.G. about boycotting Fisher Price.
The falsehood repeated endlessly, that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't, is really tantamount to something like this:
The owner of the local McDonald's puts a sign in the window that says: "Dishwasher wanted. $1.00 / hour." He leaves the sign in the window for a month, but no one comes in to apply for the dishwashing job. "See?" the McDonald's owner might say, "Dishwashing is a job Americans won't do. But there are a billion people in China who work for less than a dollar per hour. I need to import some cheap workers from China (or Bangladesh or Mexico)."
Then he or she will import the worker, undercut American wages, and, as a bonus, stick the taxpayer with the cost of the new worker's health care, of educating his children, and so on.
Another good true point.
Definitely boycott Miller Beer (and all other products through the company). They provided some of the financial support for the illegal support groups---La Raza, etc. so that they could organize the marches.
Also, BabiesRUs. They offered the financial reward for the first baby born in the new year. Remember, at first there was one mom who was trying to claim the prize, but it turns out that she was an illegal from China. So, at first BabiesRUs denied her the prize and gave it to a LEGAL citizen who had the first baby born to a legal mother. However, the illegal Chinese support groups started bitching, and BabiesRUs was concerned that the new stores that they were getting ready to open in China would suffer financially due to the backlash, so they caved and gave the illegal from China the prize as well.
Information regarding these companies and others can be found at
www.americanpatrol.com
However, she is still trying to sue for breach of contract and emotional distress. They (attorney and her) are claiming that the contest did not specify that she had to be a US citizen. However, you need a real, non-fraudulent SS number in order to claim the prize. Obviously, she is illegal so she does not have a SS number (well, not one that legally/non-fraudulently belongs to her).
www.americanpatrol.com
This is an excellent site as well. The man that started this group (Save our State) actually originally came up with the illegal immigrant laws that Hazleton, PA is currently being sued by the ACLU over. He was trying to get the laws passed in Escondido, California---which is considered a sanctuary city. However, they told him that he needed X amount of signatures. Well, he got the signatures, but was then told that they made a mistake, he actually needed Y amount of signatures. This did not give him enough time to gather the signatures. However, due to the publicity, other cities/states are currently passing the laws that he wanted passed in Escondido. This is not a group/site just for people in California. People throughout the country are members of the forum and group. I get a lot of my information from this site as well.
www.saveourstate.org
Go to forums---General Discussion
I think this is a huge thing that we seem to be bilnd to.
What is it in our core values, if we have any core values that as a country we do not seem to care about this issue except when we get to seem superior or blow off steam on chat boards?
There has to be some truths behind these issues, but all we get are speculations from both sides which effectively keeps us totally paralyzed.
I speculate that we are fine if we have to give big words to chat boards, but the answers to these problems is that someone has to figure out what to do and the rest of us have to agree and pay for it.
Since we have chosen to take the path that gives us both the most billionaires and the most poor people, most of us with any kind of political voice are constantly overidden and shouted down by the rich people who because we do not do anything about it are the ones who determine what our society will do and how it works ... because we have convinced ourselves that they are more fit to make these decisions and we have dumbed ourselves down to the point where no one is secure enough to challenge any of it.
If they do challenge it they get attacked by the media and quickly blow away, like Howard Dean with the Dean scream.
Blame it squarely on the people who would rather maintain their illusions that we are better, richer, and diferent from other people and other countries than face what is the problem with America that has evolved from our pride and arrogance.
I mean look at it. Rich people run the country through control of the corporations where they basically run little tyrannies that are out of the regulation of the people/government. This is not what the Constitution ever had in mind. The very words and basis of the law has been distorted and perverted over time and we all quibble over words instead of the great ideas that were once given to us on a silver platter. The companies that supply us give us junk food, environmental irresponsiblity, incompetant leadership, and we think we can tell other countries how to run their governments too. Ford and GM are both teetering on the brink, Walmart is the largest employer, our elections are a joke, and we just sit here year after year entertaining ourselves in chat rooms feeling self-righteous.
"Why is it that despite all the concern and the good intentions we Americans do not seem to be able to come to a concensus and get anything done about issues such as illegal immigration and outsourcing."
I can't speak for you or some others, but there are a lot of people who are doing more than blowing off steam in chat rooms. They are contacting their representatives, Pelosi, the White House etc. on a daily basis through emails, letters, phone calls, etc. The results of the 2006 elections is definitely proof that people are doing more. Also, you can guarantee that amnesty would have passed a long time ago if people were not making themselves heard. However, this is not the problem.
The problem is that US citizens have screamed enough and have made it clear to their elected officials how they feel, but they are being ignored. What is left---everyone quit paying taxes until the government responds to our requests/demands? Revolution or civil war?
US citizens are in for some very troubling times in the near future. Besides what is going on in Iraq---and soon to be Iran---we will be seeing chaos in our own streets. The effects of the illegal immigration issues are going to explode into our own streets, cities, and states. US citizens are not going to just silently sit back and let our country be invaded and taken over. US citizens are not going to be silent---while slapped with more and more taxes in order to support the illegals--so that our government can continue to cater to corporate America. US citizens are not going to just accept the fact that there are laws/rules that we must follow, but the illegal immigrants get to pick and choose which laws they obey. They are not going to sit back and watch while more and more jobs are lost, wages depressed, and our economy/environment/resources are destroyed/depleted.
At this point, we should be the people screaming racism---as there are one set of expectations/laws for us, and another set for the illegal immigrants.
Does our government really think that if they grant the illegal immigrants in our country amnesty, that these people are going to be accepted without anger toward these people? The majority of people will understand what really took place---these people were rewarded for breaking our laws, while those who tried to do things the right way---going through the proper, legal process---are stuck going to the back of the line. As more and more jobs are lost, wages depressed, and taxes are increased---this is only going to contribute to even more anger until it leads to a breaking point--which is going to be riots in our streets just like those that occurred in France.
So, I guess the point that most Americans are at now is......what next?
Would you like to see a couple of videos from protests in S. California/Los Angeles? They will definitely prove my point as to what we will soon be seeing in all streets across America. California, Texas, and Arizona are currently like time bombs---just ready to explode--especially California.
You bring up a good point in the comparative values of a 1970 Chevrolet pickup and one purchased at today's prices.
I recently asked a Chevrolet dealer why it is that if GM moved many of their assembly plants to Mexico for cheaper labor prices, why is it that a Chevrolet made in the U.S. costs the same as one made in Mexico. One would assume that if it's cheaper to make it in Mexico, it should be reflected in a lower cost for the Mexican made Chevrolet. The dealer had no explanation for it.
Suit claiming Tyson hired illegals will go to trial
BY BILL POOVEY | THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Cincinnati Enquirer
Tuesday, January 30, 2007
"CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. - A lawsuit that contends Tyson Foods depressed wages by hiring illegal immigrants and should pay damages to legal workers will go to trial in March 2008, a judge said Monday in a conference with attorneys.
The lawsuit contends that Tyson hired illegal immigrants at eight plants since April 1998.
U.S. District Judge Curtis L. Collier set the March 3, 2008, trial date after agreeing to allow an attorney for the world's largest meat company time to file a motion challenging the makeup of the class of plaintiffs before the court involves a mediator to attempt reaching a settlement."
The lead attorney for the plaintiffs, Howard W. Foster of Chicago, said he believes the total number of legal workers in the class ranges from 50,000 to 100,000. He has asked the court to force Tyson Foods to provide him a listing of all Tyson employees and their Social Security numbers, to be compared with Social Security records.
Green and other Tyson attorneys had argued that if the company hired illegal workers, it was because of the underground market for phony immigration papers and the government's flawed system of screening immigrants.
The eight Tyson plants named in the lawsuit are at Shelbyville and Corydon, Ind.; Gadsden, Blountsville and Ashland, Ala.; Sedalia, Mo.; Center, Texas; and Glen Allen, Va."
See entire article.........
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070130/BIZ/701300320/1076/BIZ
Ah, Brenda, of course we are. Why? Several reasons:
1) "Illegal immigration", directly or indirectly, is the largest vote-motivator in this country (taxes, and labor unions, which are also SCREWING certain segments of this country - and themselves - to DEATH, are other big motivators, but those are issues for another day). Democrats hold many, if not most, of the elected offices they do because, and only because, most Mexican Americans vote Democratic without having a CLUE why (just as most Whites and most Blacks do). Mexican Americans are the difference in many, many races across the country. Democrat politicians aren't going to do ANYTHING to upset THAT apple cart without a HUGE fight - or continued, endless pandering and blatant inaction, now that they've got control. Conversely, Republican politicians have (by-and-large, anyway), in recent years, seen significant gains in more affluent Mexican American circles, and thus, are NOT MOTIVATED to offend them.
2) The VAST majority of Americans of all colors REALLY can't be bothered to see beyond, "Where's the party?" Or, "Have I got $20. for a case of beer?" Or, "Do I have $100. ($150! $200!! $300!!!) for this month's cell phone bill?" Wayyy more than half of this country's actual voters don't want to hear "the other side", or ANY side of an issue - be it the liberal view OR the conservative view. They don't care to educate themselves IN THE SLIGHTEST DEGREE. They'd rather party, or be led around by the nose because it's easier than having to learn anything, or sell their votes for $20. from their local preacher, or close their minds to anyone who doesn't support their pet political agenda (whales, trees, gay marriage, reparations, death tax, handgun possession - whatever), or just HATE without understanding or caring WHY.
3) Some of us idolize lying bastards (and in certain cases "traitors", some say) like Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, George Soros, Jane Fonda, or the "great uneducated, still-Commie/Socialist" crowd from Hollywood - who WANT, and actively WORK FOR, SOCIALISM in America. THAT will be America's death dirge (if the terrorists don't get us first) because
……… whatever they SAY, what these freedom-fuckers really BELIEVE is that THEY ARE the Elite, and the Elite SHOULD BE serviced by the "underclass" - be it Americans, Mexicans, Chinese, Africans - whomever. They DO NOT WANT the middle class to flourish because that's where new millionaires (and new politicians and new educated voters) come from, and THEY pose a THREAT...
4) WE keep voting for the SAME LYING, SELF-SERVING JERKS, on BOTH SIDES, over and over and over again (not that we have much choice in the matter).
Want to fix something - anything - in America, Brenda? Tim? Tony? Bruce? For yourselves, your kids or your grandkids? Nothing in the world wrong with fighting the illegal immigration fight - it's a good, justified fight - but how 'bout we ALL start funneling some of this wasted time and energy and pissing-and-moaning into getting TERM LIMITS passed, EVERYWHERE
........... and into OPENING our blinkered, heavily biased eyes to the very REAL threat Global Terrorism poses right now.
I'm 56 years old, boys and girls.
"So what, old guy?" some of you smug little bastards (and some of you genuinely concerned others) quip?
Just this, nothing more: I've made my bucks - without a rich daddy, a college degree or a union card. I've HAD my fun. I got to grow up (and earn) in the 50s 60s 70s and 80s - and it was PRETTY FUCKIN' GOOD! What do YOU have to look forward to? Better open yer eyes and figger it out - pretty damn quick - or you ain't gonna have SHIT...
The world IS full of greedy people, jobs ARE going to continue to be outsourced, boycotts might shut down Tyson, but that probably WON'T get your job back... and Life Sucks - for almost everyone, not just you. Learn to deal with it. Here's a couple hints - for those of you who think you "just can't do it".
1) (I know you DON'T want to hear it) GO BACK TO SCHOOL ...at night if you have to. So what if it takes five years?
2) Real Estate License ...get it at night if you have to. Big Bucks, if you WANT it bad enough. So what if it takes five years?
3) Catering from your home ...Cookies to Birthday Cakes to Sushie. There's a market. So what if it takes five years?
4) Relocate if you have to (there ARE lots of areas where the economy IS GOOD). Do it even if you don't want to.
5) Write a book... HA! Some of you could, if you would. So what if it takes five years?
5) GROW UP! Stop expecting The Government to fix shit for you. Fix it yourselves. So what if it takes five years? Or a lifetime? What else you got to do?
Regards,
I tried to say pretty much the same thing but a little differently. Most people don't want to be told that to live above a subsistence level you may have to seek out the good jobs, put in the extra time, or develop a unique skill that will pay you big time. It's almost like an entitlement mentality has taken over the workforce. You put in 40 hours and expect to make enough to satisfy your WANTS not just your NEEDS. It is a consumer society and we are bombarded constantly with ads that tell us it's normal to want everything there is and if you can't afford it we'll extend you credit. And then when your ass goes bankrupt you look around for anything to blame but yourself.
Tony,
What the dealer didn't tell you is, the cost to produce a vehicle in Mexico offsets the costs in the US. The profit made from cheap labor in Mexico gets shifted to pay the US labor cost. It's no secret the Big Three have been losing money and if there weren't factories in Mexico and outsourcing for parts they'd all go under in short order. Most likely, if the vehicles were all manufactured and assembled in the US most of us couldn't afford them. And as a consequence of the new minimum wage law you can expect the prices to go up even further. I worked in the construction union for a couple years and the wage scale was directly related to the minimum wage. I'm sure it still is and when the new minimum wage law is passed you will see the major unions all renegotiating thier contracts based on the new wage rates. So when the minimum wage earners gain $80 a week it will get them nowhere because everything they buy will have gone up in relation.
It's to bad there isn't a consumers union that can stand up to this practice. People scream to write your elected officials and do something about the corporate greed that is killing the middle class. Try writing the Teamsters and tell them you don't want to pay somebody $22 an hour plus benefits to load boxes on a truck. Write the UAW and tell them you don't want to pay somebody $28 an hour plus benefits to put the window crank on your new car door. See how far you get with that. Like I said in my initial comment, what is the cost to value ratio. I'm not denying anyone the right to make a decent wage but I can't help feeling like I'm getting screwed everytime I buy something. I don't think that's the governments business but the consumer is driven by greed and immediate self-gratification, not reason.
Most of the time we consumers don't have any other choice than to buy foreign made goods, because that's all that's on the shelves, so don't blame this on the consumer.
Capitalism ? Yes we have always been a capitalist nation, but this is getting out of hand. Maybe I should use Corporate Greed insted of capitalism?
If all of this continues, the guy who has his retirement tied up in stocks isn't going to have jack squat left when he retires. Keep putting Americans out of work, and keep destroying the middle class, and soon nobody is going to be able afford the greedy corporaion's products.
Maybe you should try to preach your bullcrap spin to my friends who lost their jobs when Fisher Price moved to Mexico, and lost their jobs again when Briggs and Stratton laid them off. Preach your crap to those people who are now working 2 or 3 part time jobs at minimum wage ( oh and I suppose that the minimum wage shouldn't be increasd? ) just to keep their heads above water.
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As far as the immigration issue, I have no argument with you. The government is entirely responsible for regulating immigration and they have failed miserably. I think it's thier responsibility to right the wrong they have allowed to happen to millions of American workers. Ship them all out. Do it tomorrow. That would be good for America.
The way you describe thinks, it seems that you are OK with the greedy rich getting richer, and the Americans who keep losing their decent paying jobs living in shacks and walking to work, and all of this so that stock investors can get a better return on their investments? Gimme a break.
And like I said before, go to Wal-Mart and try to find an American made toaster. We aren't buying U.S. made products because there aren't very many, not because American made products are more expensive.
From CNN, Lou Dobbs Tonight
January 31, 2007
"DOBBS: Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson today said he believes that having a "dialogue" with China is the best way to cut our soaring record trade deficit with the communist country. Lawmakers on Capitol Hill, however, not entirely in agreement, pointing to the millions of jobs that have been exported to cheap overseas labor markets as proof that more drastic measures must be taken and soon.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning. The committee will come to order.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Senate Democrats took turns drilling Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson for failing to level the trade playing field with China.
SEN. JIM BUNNING (R), KENTUCKY: All the jaw-boning and talking that you are doing with the Chinese is not going to affect one iota that steel worker in Bessemer, Alabama.
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: If the roof is leaking, we better fix it. I think the roof is leaking as far as the imbalance of trade.
SYLVESTER: For years, China has manipulated its currency to make its goods cheap and American products more expensive. The result? A U.S. $230 billion trade deficit with China. That's rippled across the U.S. economy. U.S. factories shut down as companies moved overseas.
BILL HAWKINS, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: Companies who have relocated to China, American companies who have moved to China, benefit from China's policies. And they have a lot of clout with this administration.
SYLVESTER: The Bush administration has been reluctant to issue ultimatums and instead has formed a strategic economic dialogue group of U.S. cabinet officials to engage the Chinese.
HENRY PAULSON, SECRETARY OF TREASURY: We're coordinating what we're doing economically and we're speaking with one voice. And I think that gives us great leverage.
SYLVESTER: The new chair of the Senate Banking Committee says the American people want more than dialogue and chitchat as they lose their jobs.
SEN. CHRIS DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: They are livid. They are livid, Mr. Secretary. And the Congress isn't going to wait necessarily for us to get some sort of vague definition of how this is kind of progressing when they watch three million manufacturing jobs leave this country.
SYLVESTER: Patience is running out. Senators Chuck Schumer and Lindsey Graham are leading the call to slap a tariff of 27.5 percent on all Chinese imports into the United States unless China corrects its currency imbalances.
SYLVESTER: Congressional lawmakers say they are tired of hearing the same thing. One witness said it feels a lot like the movie "Groundhog Day." China manipulates its currency, the U.S. government does nothing about it, workers lose their jobs, that's been going on for years as the Treasury Department continues to talk with the Chinese -- Lou.
DOBBS: In point of fact, it may be becoming clearer to all of us that it will be easier to -- for Americans to influence the policy of the Chinese government than to influence the policy of this administration and this Congress."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0701/31/ldt.01.html
According to Bush, thousands upon thousands of American jobs have been created during his Presidency. Actually, this may be true since Wal-Mart is the nations leading employeer. We can all get a job there selling Chinese made products while Rex and his buddies are getting their pockets padded from their stock investments.
Not only should their be tarrifs on foriegn made goods, I think that American companies who have closed factories and moved overseas should be taxed to hell.
Oh, but I guess that American made toaster will cost $24.99 vs the $19.99 Chinese toaster ? I doubt it.
Bush is full of it in regard to the numerous jobs that have been created during his administration---we just haven't discovered the manipulated, cherry-picked evidence yet to prove that he is full of it. Also, as an accountant once told me----anyone can "cook the books" to make the figures reflect anything that they want them to-- if they know what they are doing.
Also, in regard to the low unemployment rates...........When people are no longer eligible to receive any type of unemployment benefits, they fall off of the unemployed figures/stats. Therefore, the unemployment rate may appear that it dropped, but that just means that more people are no longer able to receive unemployment benefits.
You look at states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Indiana, Illinois----and tell citizens of those states that the unemployment rate is low and Bush has created numerous jobs. I would be willing to bet that they would have a difference of opinion.
Everything would eventually end up evening out. More US citizens would be employed, and without foreign competition and illegal invaders, the wages of US citizens would increase.
The government needs to increase the tariffs on any foreign products coming into this country---as pointed out on the Lou Dobbs show. The government also needs to increase the taxes and costs of doing business for any business that moves to another country. For example, companies that move to other countries currently do not have to follow the same environmental standards/laws. I am not even sure if they have to follow the same laws regarding employee rights.
But hey, Rex is making money on his stocks, so it doesn't matter.
I just saw a few people with views such as Rex over on one of Steve Bachman's articles.
Rex and the others like him will eventually get to know what it feels like---or they will know of friends/family members. They have just been lucky. They think that because the illegal immigrants can't affect their jobs in any way, they are not considering the HB-1 visas. They are letting immigrants come in to take jobs through those visas for the same reason that they are letting our economy be flooded with illegals---to lower wages.
This is what really gets me.....It just proves what a F'n idiot we have in our White House........
"For years, China has manipulated its currency to make its goods cheap and American products more expensive. The result? A U.S. $230 billion trade deficit with China. That's rippled across the U.S. economy. U.S. factories shut down as companies moved overseas.
Companies who have relocated to China, American companies who have moved to China, benefit from China's policies. And they have a lot of clout with this administration.
The Bush administration has been reluctant to issue ultimatums and instead has formed a strategic economic dialogue group of U.S. cabinet officials to engage the Chinese."
You forgot to add "outsourcing" to your article. This is the process whereby instead of companies adding full/parttime employees---they hire an outside individual/company to do work on an "as needed" basis---even if the work is "needed" two weeks out of the month. This way, they don't have to hire an actual employee and pay benefits.
I bet that execs at Walmart are fuming due to the minimum wage going up.
Well, Rex; how much is "enough" profit? Corporate profitability is at an all-time high right now. So what would happen if it were to suddenly become illegal for companies to "outsource" jobs to nations that violate human rights and/or have no workers rights laws? Perhaps alot of billionaires might have to settle for being multi-millionaires, or multi-millionaires settle for being just millionaires; and many more Americans would get to keep their jobs. That's not "socialism," no matter how much you try to spin it. It's called doing what's right for the good of all Americans.
Or could it be because consumers aren't buying the products made by American workers because they cost too much?
Well, what do you suppose would happen if suddenly the markets were not flooded with so many foreign-made products? Do you not think that the market would soon balance itself out in this instance? Isn't that the prime argument for the "laissez-faire" economy that so many "conservatives" condone -- that the free market will always take care of itself, and thus doesn't need government interference? American capitalism seemed to work just fine back in the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's -- before the mass exodus of American jobs to third-world countries and the even bigger influx of foreign products into U.S. markets. And you know what? Those were times when Americans of ALL social status benefitted from economic prosperity -- and guess what? The corporate and industrial executives STILL got rich!
You want the working guy to make decent wages but feel it's ok for the government to cap corporate profit.
He wants the working guy to make decent wages? Pinko Commie bastard!!!
I could be wrong -- but I don't recall Timothy V. or anyone else in this thread suggesting the government should "cap corporate profit." I would like to see the government finally stand up to corporate interests -- but I know that's not going to happen anytime in the near future.
"Free trade" is all to often little more than an opening for corporations to move jobs to countries where they can pay workers penny's on the hour with no breaks or benefits of any kind. The actual benefits to the American economy are neglibible -- especially when weighed against the damage it does to the American workforce.
This is pure "share the wealth" economics that borders on socialism.
Yeah...okay. That sentence is pure "demonize the Left" rhetoric that borders on fascist propaganda. There is nothing "socialist" about government policy that recognizes the interests of the middle-class -- who happen to make up the largest segment of the population.
There is nothing patriotic -- let alone moral -- about billionaire corporate CEO's taking jobs away from hard-working Americans, and moving them to nations that often times have horrible workers rights and human rights records.
If you want to defend it or justify it, go right ahead. It's all you. But to suggest that people who oppose it are advocating socialism is as insulting as it is untrue.
Laws of probability still apply. One person can go to Vegas, play the slots, and come home a big winner. Take 1,000 folks, though, all playing by the same rules, and you can count on the group losing roughly 25 cents for every dollar played. Had you gone to Atlantic City, though, it would have been more like 17 cents. Why? The the regulated minimum payout percentage for slots is 75% in Nevada and 83% in New Jersey.
The law of supply and demand still applies. Suppose 1,000 laid-off factory workers roll up their sleeves and put a year or two (or five) into retraining. How many new real estate agents, novelists and sushi caterers can their local economy support? Probably not hundreds.
So, who retrains for what? Business and government should have a common interest in the answer to this question -- not for the by-the-bootstraps individual, but for those 1,000 former factory workers, collectively.
Note: By "government," I do not mean the short-lived political types who dominate the news, but the career professionals in agencies like the Departments of Commerce, Education, and Labor.
Businesses have deeper knowledge of what trends to expect in their market segments. Government agencies have broad knowledge about the structure of the national economy and how it operates as part of a global system.
Some businesses cooperate with communities and schools to recruit and cultivate their future workforce. Government agencies could more actively participate in "retrain for what?" discussions, so we don't end up with a glut of, say, sushi caterers.
Steve said folks shouldn't expect government to "fix" local variations in economic conditions, and I agree. When it snows, I don't expect the weather bureau to come shovel my driveway -- but I do expect them to provide a timely, reliable forecast -- so I can plan and take actions accordingly.
If American business and government better combined these perspectives, they could provide the American workforce more reliable "economic weather reports" -- so citizens could make better educational and career choices.
All good points - the supply/demand theory. But, remember that the capitalists (those who have capital to invest) are now making people bid in a global marketplace. In this global marketplace countries with the cheapest cost of living and people in these places will beat an equal or greater talent living in a place with higher cost/standard of living.
With the current Iraq war and culture / idealogical conflicts it is creating; we will be seeing a very interesting scenario unfold.
It is the growth in income that creates a flourishing economy and support for more Sushi chefs.
Look at me - I am part time call center employee in India and am begging for my food. I need a cell phone because there are no land lines here and it is cheap to live here man - I say it is time to immigrate to India and China - there are lots of IT and manufacturing jobs, people won't even bother you if you sleep by the roadside.
It is called global people-rotation - people from Mexico move to America, the Americans need to migrate to either Canada (do you want us there!) or India or China! After a few years the middle east will get all cleared up and global rotation can continue.
The opportunities for business and government to take more active roles in advising and guiding American workers are for reasons others have cited here: These people represent potential employees, shareholders, and customers -- so their continued economic survival should be of concern to both business and government.
People in America can do something - stop buying stuff and see the Capitalists quiver! Put a little effort in fixing simple meals at home. Don't run out and buy that FLAT SCREEN TV for the Super Bowl party!
Oh it is so pointless. Hey do you know anyone looking for Sushi chef?
Yeah, the goal seems reasonable, and it will happen sooner or later because we will all mix with each other and bump up against each other and want to buy each other's products and hear each other's ideas ...
BUT ... there is no reporting of what this is, who is driving it, the rules are thousands of pages ... the ordinary person is screwed by having to be tied to a job ... all great ideas about retraining, but the economy moves so fast that retraining is only applicable for some people, and the rest can be passed by as the next big thing zooms by the last big thing in the span of years.
Meanwhile those with capital can always hire people to manage it, ie. make them richer at cheaper and cheaper prices. Those with enough capital can exert coercive control over those who have to work ... and they can hide it as long as they can but that is not how people want to live. People want democracy, they do not want the illusion of democracy.
I think there should be reasonable social contract with every person on Earth, perhaps with the UN or USA enforced that says something like do a reasonable
amount of work, limit your birth rate, and do not engage in terrorism or crime and your government is responsible for the basics of life.
If you have kids, then you must pay for them. If you commit crimes then do not count on everyone to provide a safety net for you or eduation or housing. If you use violence to try to intimidate people then you will be treated like Saddam Hussein.
If however you work and produce a bounty that contributes to others to some extent the best you can then you can expect housing, power, water, health care, education and to have a polical voice. simple minded maybe, but either we are going to have to bring people into this global community or we will have to keep them out or kill them.
We have to devote many more resources to making people productive but the payoff will be amazing i think.
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"Sometimes getting rid of certain occupations IS good for America. "
Hopefully it ends up being your job---or your husband's---or that of one of your children......Let us know what you think then!!
not one of the wacko's above telling you Americans 'won't do this or that', has ever BEEN OFFSHORED, (outsourcing means to other Americans...)
Tom Friedman would be proud of them.... but his job isn't in jeopardy
Without outsourcing and trade, our economy would go into a massive recession and have massive inflation. Importing goods lowers prices for goods which we all seem to enjoy. Trade uses the law of comaparitive advantage to grow production in both nations. As I watch this, I just saw that the U.S savings rate is at it's lowest rate ever--and is in fact negative. Also, there is a strong corrolation between the trade deficit and economic growth--as the growth rate increases, the trade deficit also increases.
People also tend to ignore that exports are at their highest level and growing fast. However, it is less than the growth rate of imports. The trade deficit actually fell during the last several months.
Also, many forign companies are opening up factories in the U.S. Toyota has recently opened several factories in the U.S, even as American companies like G.M and Ford have closed them up. So tell me, are there problems with American manufacturing, or just American manufacturing Companies
Also, unemployment is at about 4.5 percent, less than it was in the 70's and early 80's, during parts of which we had a trade surplus, and no more than a small deficit.