We Were Not Founded As A Christian Nation

Just to let you know, the formatting screwed up when I published this. I had paragraphs but the new "editing tool" on here seemed to mess it all up. I tried to correct and repost, but it did it again. So, you just have to work through the mess I guess.

I agree with your basic premise and your opening paragraphs are factual and support your thesis. Unfortunately, you digress into a rant and put forth sweeping generalizations with no supporting evidence, such as "Why do you think that most Christians are scared of science?" This detracts from a potentially good article.

Agreed.

I stated why most Christians are scared of science: due to the fact that science can be proven and their religion cannot be. I never said this was a straight factual piece, because if I was going to back up everything had to say this article would be much larger.

I agree.

Good article. But let me warn you, die-hard right-wingers are 'selective' readers and only read stuff that benefit them and mis-state facts and even lie, so arguing with them is really not worth it, although FUN, but still a small pain in the ass. Unless you have experience working with mentally challenged people, trying to reason and educate right-wingers is a daunting task.

Ahh True American, you are so on the mark with that. Then again, I feel we all have experience with the mentally challenged, we deal with average people on a day to day basis, and their ability to reason with logic is gone. Good point though!

Jonathan,
I agree with WM H. You are attacking all Christians here, and I think that only a very small minority of the self-proclaimed Christians in this country represent any kind of threat to the rest of us. Most Christians want what you want...to be left alone to practice their faith privately, and make a living and raise their families. They are not trying to force you to become a Christian. Nor are the hard-over fundamentalists. They don't really give a rats ass whether you become a Christian or not, although they will accept the "Gold Stars from God" if they are able to convert you. More threateningly, they want to change the government and the laws so that they are based on Biblical Law. Whether you are a Christian or not, you will have to abide by those laws. That is what I find threatening, and something that non-Christians and Christians alike must oppose.

I guess you have it all figured out. Funny how only liberal non-christians know the "facts"?

BOOOOOO
Jonathan, you stink!

Hey Jonathan

The effort to identify the nation as "Christian" is relatively recent; historically, the evangelical churches (especially the Southern Baptists) were adamant in their strict seperation of Church and State.

What has changed is the nature of the things that they fear. As long as the leadership of the nation was largely Protestant, the emphasis was on minimizing the impact of government on the free exercise of the churches.

Evangelicals were mobilized as a political force when JFK ran for President, but even then, most of the mainstream Protestant denominations did not take a position on this. The independent churches, and the fundamentalists did organize on a grand scale, and were "vindicated" when the Supreme Court disallowed school prayer in 1963.

The decline of the old Protestant churches, with their traditions, forms of governance, built in "conservative" features, progressed very rapidly as the Boomers aged. Boomer kids who were raised in mainstream churches have not remained attached as adults, and are not raising their children in these congregations. All of the mainstream Protestant churches are smaller than they were in 1965.
Believers have migrated to independant churches without historical traditions and oversight, Hence, the public face of Christianity is more rural, less-trained theologically, more local and more uncompromising than was true in the past.

When the issues of abortion and, later, gay rights were made political issues, the politicization of the churches exploded. Now, it is hard to believe how easily evangelicals assume the roles of "just another interest group".

This long post as preface to "Amen" to Bert -the religious right is still only a portion (maybe 30%) of Christians in America.

I believe this article has SOME points to make but is more based on emotion than objectivity. Many arguments are weak. It is mentioned about the Apostle Paul and weaknesses in the story. Have any 5 people tell you about the same incident and details will vary. It is also universally known that death in scripture can refer to spiritual death or the commencement of the death process. The author also seems to have no problem accepting that Adam lived 900 years - a baffling condradiction.
To say most Christians are afraid of science is ignorant. Many of the worlds greatest scientists have been or are Christian. The author also seems ignorant of the incredible amounts of fraud and blind faith in the area of science.
And, while Christian, I have NEVER met a Christian that believes people should be "forced" to be Christian.
So to the author I say this, "The biggest demons in this world are not the Christians or any belief system for that matter. The biggest demons are your own ignorance and irrational emotionalism." Conquer those and you will see more clearly.

Jonathan... I don't know if you were one of the hundred-plus commentators on my article "Oy, It's Christmas Again"
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976855556,
but if you'll read the last paragraph, you'll see 1) that we are in total agreement, and 2) what happens when you have the nerve to publish something like this in this hotbed of hothead neocon Christians. Prepare to be gang-prayed. Happy SFAD to you!
Note to Lonnie: Did you read what you wrote? 1) God is the center of the universe, he created me and he loves me. But then 2) he DIED for me. So according to you, this god guy is dead! This being the case, why do you and your fellow cultists keep asking him for favors? Dead is dead, in any universe. And as far as I know, the dead are in no position to help anyone. Sorry for your loss, sport.

Bert - Sorry, I disagree. I have never met a singular Christian who did not preach their faith to me or try to get me to "let Jesus's love into my life" or whatever that crap means. So, it is not just the extreme right-wing. Also, "those who do not condemn evil, permit it to be done." By their silence, they are endorsing the way the right-wing behaves. Time for them to take responsibility for their inactions.
Nanci - Here is my question to you. Is it that only liberals have the "Facts" or only those with the "facts" are liberals because they are able to see the truth for themselves?
Jennifer - Wow, that is your only come back? Your God would be proud.
Richard - your comment is nothing more than a rant as well, with no basis to back up most of your points at all. I am not ignorant at all to the points, and if you know your Bible, the thing with Paul was only dealing with him, not his companions. He couldn't remember. Seems that you are so quick to blow off all of the inaccuracies, and chalk it up to just forgetfulness. Explain to me if it is divenly inspired, how God doesnt remember the facts himself? Forgetful man, huh?
Lonnie, God did not create me, my mother and father did through the act of procreation. He is not the center of anything to me. Maybe he is everything to you, but not I. And another thing, I thought Jesus was the SON of God, not God himself. Hmm, I wonder what the people in Waco thought about David Koresh. Or Heaven's Gate thoguht of their leader for that matter. No clue. Blind faith once again in a fairy tale.
Dame, you are my favorite person of the day. I agree if he is dead, how can he grant favors? Guess that loop hole about heaven plays in and then they can live again. What I want to know is why God and Jesus used to pop up so much, yet never do now? Guess they are shy these days, all the pesky technology and such, must scare them. Maybe their God doesnt know how to use an IPOD or something. I will check out your article, soudns great.

I think it's a good article. To go into more detail on specific points would have been easy enough, but that would be more like writing a book instead.
As a Pagan and gay, I can honestly say that the Christians I have encountered are in no way polite or respectful. While I make a point of being polite to them, the conversation usually ends with them telling me I am a bad person who will burn in hell if I don't do exactly as they tell me to do, which is to shun my religion, my life partner, stay celibate and live alone for the rest of my life. I never cease to be shocked by such errogance!
They seem to spend the majority of thier time judging what other do, instead of looking at their own lives. So

I agree that they are most likely projecting onto other what they are ignoring in themselves.

I don't mind what people believe in, as long as they respect the beliefs of others. Our founding fathers could have very easily created a theocracy, but they didn't. This article is an excellent reminder of that very fact.

Ma Ly K - the saddest thing is that you will be told that they do not want to change you and that is only and handful, nevermind the fact that it may be every Christian that you encounter. I have been told this not by one sect of Christianity either, by all sects. I have had Jewish friends who NEVER preached to me, never condemned me to a life of hell, yet the Christians will everytime. It shows their religion is nothing more than hate mongouring and hypocritical.

Thank you Robert, that is spot on. I am just going to say this. When I wrote many articles saying that people like Bush did not deserve to be in office, I was called a traitor, and told that if I did not like the goverment to leave.
Based upon this thought, you are traitors. Our nation was created for "freedom of religion" NOT "freedom of religion as long as it is Christianity." You want to molest the Constitution and pervert it into a document that benefits you and your belief system and ignores everyone else. That is not the way of our great nation. We are supposed to be a nation of progress, liberal though, and forward mobility. Just because you choose to live in the mental dark ages doesn't mean we all want to. So, as I was told so many times by Christians and Republicans alike, "This is OUR country. If you do not like the way it was founded, get out of it. If you try to corrupt it, you are a traitor and not a citizen." Burns when you are on the receieving end, huh?

Could you please quote the section of the constitution that refers to the separation of church and state as opposed to the very real section that states simply that the state shall establish no religion.

To Robert and Jonathan,
I agree that the "silent majority" of moderate Christians should be raising their voices and denouncing the fanatics...just as the same "silent majority" of Muslims should be vocally and physically opposing the Islamist extremists...and terrorists.

However.

The rest of us NEED the support of those people if we are to survive as a nation, perhaps even as a species, and rants like the above only serve to further alienate them and push them into the extremist camp.

Jonathan,
I am sorry you have never met a Christian who did not preach to you. I have many, many Christian friends who will not even bring up the subject. If I want to know about their religious views, I have to ask them, and they never, ever proselytize me. I honestly believe that the vast majority of Christians share that view. Of course, I also know some of the others...some in my own family...who preach and cajole me until I want to barf on them. I think your generalizations about Christians are wrong, misleading and ultimately harmful to the process of accommodation that must happen...MUST HAPPEN.

Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian clergyman. His wife, Coretta Scott King, was one of the most vociferous supporter of gay rights around, saying that the struggle for gay civil rights is akin to the struggle for black civil rights. Some of the most committed opponents of the Vietnam War were Catholic nuns and priests, who walked the walk re the sanctity of life.

I agree with you and Bert in that I am kind of annoyed that the more liberal Christian churches aren't up in arms about how the fundamentalists have co-opted the faith.

Hmmmmmm, sounds familiar, doesn't it?
I mention these two items as a way of suggesting that Christianity can be a force for good as surely as it can be a force for judgment and self-righteousness and evil. I think Jesus was a cool dude. I just don't happen to believe that he was the slaughtered lamb on the altar that so many Christians think he was. That whole death and resurrection and redemption thing is so similar to Mayan human sacrifices to the gods that it's more than just a little creepy.

I also wrote a little ditty on this issue back on November 20, 2006:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976843216

I also posted some quotes from our founding fathers and previous presidents about religion and the US government:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976859466

As a liberal Christian (yes, we exist), I want to thank you for the challenge to stand up to our fundamentalist brothers and sisters. They make me so mad because they pollute what Jesus stood for--love, acceptance, and forgiveness. But of course, we are told to "love our enemies" so I, at least, tend to back down.
Like it or not, though, tolerance means tolerance for everyone, even to those who are themselves intolerant. It's a fine balancing act on how to speak out against fundamentalists without crossing the line into intolerance. I haven't figured out yet how to do that.

Nanci, you have disregarded my questions, and therefore, I will disregard yours.
Burt - I base my opinion on how I have been treated, and what I have encountered. Maybe if I meet others who can change that, my outlook will to. Until then, it will not happen.
Wendy - I always like your insights on things, and agree with you 100%.
Tanja - you can love people and accept people, but that doesn't mean that you endorse their behavior at all. That is the problem. The "good" Christians are allowing the "bad" ones to represent them and give them a bad name. No one is saying attack them, but you can say that you do not agree with them, nor do they represent your point of view, there is nothing wrong with having different philosophies.
As DaVinci said, "Those who do not condemn evil, permit it to be done."

Sorry Robert, that clause guarentees you Freedom OF religion, not freedom from exposure to religion. There is no separation of church and state in the Constitution, merely a prohibition on the government extablishment of a state religion.

Just a note. Recently religious fanatics up roared over a billboard that said "Don't believe in God, you are not alone." Comments about this billboard were: "That infringes on my right to believe," "That is a blatant and should be illegal," and "That billboard needs to come down, I am a Christian and that billboard limits my right."

This argument goes both ways, but you don't see the "JESUS" billboards getting burnt down. You don't here me claiming defamation for having to witness a church ceremony, or a god comment. Just keep your self in check before you go claiming separation of church and state is equal, it obviously is not.

Oh Nanci, you did not even look up the Supreme Court case at all did you? Or did you forget that they determine what is Constitutional in this country? Thomas Jefferson also explained the First Amendment as "Seperation of Church and State." Must burn you up that the Founding Fathers actually said that this is not a nation founded on Christian Ideals. But you and your kind are determined to turn it into one huh? Well, perhaps if you can run out the Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Atheists, and everyone else who doesn't agree with you that is.

Even though a astounding majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian, they wanted a country where all sects of all religions could coexist peacefully...not by denial of their religion, but through freedom of religion....NOT freedom FROM religion. The country was founded BY Christians, which logicly means, founded ON Christian beliefs....right? Just an naive assumption, from a science hatin', hatemongerin', religion pushin', Christian, I suppose....

BTW, wild generalizations, acusations, and scriptural ignorance, does not help to make your point, other than to those filled with as much contempt and hatred as you...

Even though a astounding majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian,

I've never done a count, Josh, but I can tell you that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Madison and Paine were definitely NOT Christians. Also, the first six presidents were not Christians. It would appear that most of the people living in the colonies were not Christians based on this:

"At the time of its Founding, the United States seemed to be an infertile ground for religion. Many of the nation's leaders—including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin—were not Christians, did not accept the authority of the Bible, and were hostile to organized religion. The attitude of the general public was one of apathy: In 1776, only 5 percent of the population were participating members of churches."
Ian Robertson

Anyone who thinks that science proves everything has no grasp on science. Anyone who doesn't understand that faith is based believing in things you cannot prove obviously has no faith.

Bert B - Participating in organized religion is not a prerequisite for being Christian.

Science doesn't prove, it supports...that's the beauty of it. If a scientist says he/she has "proven" something then they have effectively started that it no longer needs study. This doesn't happen in professional sciences. Even gravity is still studied, scientists admit that everything is variable based on situation, circumstance, and extraneous variables.

RELIGION does state to accept it for what it is and not study it. It has asserted itself as a fact. NOTHING IS A FACT unless is cannot be disputed. Religion can obviously be disputed for many reasons. Up until this century religion was "hidden" behind the religious leader to prevent an uprising that would ruin their paycheck.

AND "believing in things you cannot prove" is basically stating, "we can't prove it, just believe." You are a vagrant of the middle ages, stuck in world where the facts are hidden (in a Latin bible) to prevent disbelief.

Also, the article quoted above states that the country "...is NOT in any sense founded on the Christian religion..." It speaks nothing of the ideals of Christianity, which the founding father obviously espoused.

I have to pitch in here that not all Christians want to force everyone into the same "procrustean" mold (a tip of the hat to Patricia Arnold's "Leaping into a procrustean bed"

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976842177

for this metaphor) and as a Christian trying my best to emulate Jesus I applaud the separation of church and state.

Power trips are not for followers of the one who exhorted leaders to serve, not rule. I regret that so many who claim Jesus as their own are really clueless self-promoting posers who abuse His name and teachings of love and tolerance. This is of no comfort to those who have been abused by them, and I count myself in that group as well.

Those who are preaching a doctrine of purity, from fundamentalists of all stripes, to Nazis, communists, and the KKK, must be kept away from positions of power, or we shall reap the same results over and over again, the lessons of history notwithstanding.

Bert B - Participating in organized religion is not a prerequisite for being Christian.

Hmmm. Are you suggesting that even though those early colonists were not churchgoers, they were "closet Christians?"

Bert, I'm not sure where you get your facts, but I have read the written works of Jefferson and Washington. Both were strongly against organized religion(wow, me to, I must not really be a Christian huh), but both were deffinatly Christian, read thier own words/letters/documents/ and then tell me that they were not Christians. Jefferson, did stray away from the Faith when he was older though, and his writings show that as well.
Here, I swiped this from a friend of mine, thanks Tiff.

ALL BUT ONE ofthe 55 writers and signers of the United States Constitution were members of various Christian denominations: 29 were Anglicans, 16 to 18 were Calvinists, 2 were Methodists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Roman Catholic, 1 lapsed Quaker and sometimes Anglican, and 1 open deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed to all denominations.

Heres a little more.....

Northwest Ordinance (1787 - enacted by the FIRST Congess): " Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools, and the MEANS of education should FOREVER be encouraged.'

Washington's first inaguaral address declared his "FIRST OFFICIAL ACT" his 'fervent supplications (prayers) to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe" that HE might bless the new gov't.

"In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every PUBLIC and PRIVATE good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than mine own; nor those of my fellow citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States."

Washington (1786-Farewell Address): "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensible supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute to Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, thieses firmist props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, OUGHT to respect and to cherish them. And let us with CAUTION indulge the supposition, that MORALITY can be maintained without religion." (note to modern politicians)!
Listen to them, dont let those with an agenda twist what they said, listen to their understanding, it is still relevent today.....God bless

Than why have we always sworn under oath with our hand on the bible, and still do. I hate it when a good religious discusion turns to a Right winger/ Left winger thing. Anytime True American post something, you can almost guarantee it is going to be some political garbage. I think he copy and pastes the same B.S. on every single article he comments on.

First off, Many of you who do not believe in religion and think that christians are afraid of science are way off. More and more of the scientific community are working with the Bible and proving that these events in the Bible could of happened. Even some doctors are seeing people healed through prayer and witnessing miracles as they themselves have called the.
You ridicule something that you are uneducated in and know very little about. I aml not a church going person. I am a sinner probably, one of the biggest sinners around. But I know that there is a greater force out there(who I know as God) I do prayer and in some of my lowest times, it was nice to know that I could talk to him.
When someone is trying to talk to you about hell etc. they are not trying to force you into their way of thinking, most of them that I have encountered will invite me to church. If I choose to go that is up to me. If I find that someone is talking religion that I do not believe in( I would say that if anything I am Protesant) I simply say , No thanks, I am not interested.
I am glad that this coutry is diversified enough to accept all religions, whether or not I agree with them is not up to me. They have a right to believe any way they choose.If they werent allowed, we would be like Hitler had it in Germany, when he banned all religious material and burned all of it.
As far as this country being founded on religion. They came to this new world because they were being persecuted in Europe for the way that they believed. Here they were allowed to WORSHIP the way they chose.

I believe in science and Jesus Christ. Why do people think that it is one way or the other. I wish the Turkish government would let us investigate that large boat shaped peice of wood, that is a foreign wood for that area, and it is also 20,000 feet high in a mountain. A father and son were onto proving this was Noahs arc. But then the Muslims realized this would prove christian beleifs, and shut down the operation quickly. I am not stating it definately is the arc, but what else could it be. Come on Turkey, let our scientists investigate. I love science and JC.

Josh,
I don't know where you get YOUR information. I did not say the founders were not religious. I said they were not Christians. Many were Deists. If you want to read what they had to say about organized religions in general, and Christianity in particular, read this.

Josh,
Read the words that you quoted by Washington again. Where in it does he say anything at all about Christianity or Jesus? This article is about Christianity, and whether this is a "Christian Nation." Did you know that when Washington was dying, and he knew that he was, he would not let any church officials into his house. The last thing he did before he died was to take his own pulse. Washington was queried throughout his life about his religious beliefs, and he was very cagey about it. I have never read or heard of any document that claims that Washington said he was a Christian. The same is true for Jefferson and Franklin, the writers of the Constitution.

Bert I understand that the quote from Washington doesnt prove him Christian, only points out the importance of religion in the nation and the morals that religion provides. I went to your other article, and I agree with alot of it especially,

"I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. … I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

Does that make me any less a Christian? I cant stand the idea of 'organized religion' It is a noose around the necks of those that wish to believe but dont know the where to direct their faith or how to interprit the Word for themselves.
Washington and the others knew the impact on the country if they showed a preference towards a certain religion, and were very careful to choose their words.
Go look up the Thanksgiving letter he wrote. uh oh gotta go.....

Josh,
I don't think we have any argument. We're pretty much in agreement. I think we have had a failure to communicate, and that is now straightened out.

In response to Peter Wimsey's social commentary, let us not forget the omnipresent "Protestant Work Ethic" that was pervasive throughout our American work history. This ethic and morals idea decreed if you worked hard and long hours, God would reward you. Since that Protestant concept is gone now and the "I can get it for you wholesale" work ethic has taken over (that includes wholesale human labor) where the rubber meets the road of the" who deserves and gets what" self-esteem Jesus issue, I'd say "Get ready to Rumble" OOOOhhh it's on children! Nice opening diatribe Jonathan. You got us all riled up!

Bert, agreed, this is a very emotional subject to alot of people on both sides of the arguement. I tend to not communicate very well at times, I usually dont have enough time to truely say what it is that I want. And for some reason it is especially hard for me to get my thoughts out and typed the way that I intend....anyways, God bless, I'm onto another article for now.

What country are you living in?

A lot of good comments. Let me remind you all, this article is about whether or not we were FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN nation, not if we are religious or if we are Christian today. That is what most of you are missing. The Founding Fathers, most at least, were not Christians, and made great lengths to say that our country was not founded on ANY SPECIFIC religious dogma. This helped them gain allies in different nations with different religious beliefs. My own personal opinions on religion aside, this is this topic.

Also, anyone who would like to debate this fact, "Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is NOT, IN ANY SENSE, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." Explain this to me when it passed Congress with a unanimous vote, as well as was written by Washington, and passed by James Madison. Were the Founding Fathers confused, or do people just not want to face facts?

"Were the Founding Fathers confused, or do people just not want to face facts?"

Hmmm... I think it's the latter.

Jonathan,
Whenever I see or hear somebody say, "This is a Christian nation," I get an irresistible urge to blast them for the reasons that you so rightly articulated. No matter how many times you refute it, they will continue to repeat it, over and over. Goebbels, Hitler's chief of propaganda understood this principle perfectly. If you repeat a lie often enough, eventually people will begin to believe it. And that is what the Religious Right is doing. Organizations like the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State spend a large part of their budgets refuting this piece of nonsense, but there are still a lot of people in this country who believe that the founders of our nation were all devout Christians, and that they intended for the government of our nation to be dominated by Christian theology.
Of course, nothing could be further from the truth, but when did truth, facts and honesty have anything to do with religious beliefs?

Bert, with that thought, you articulated that wonderfully well. It is true, most people of devout faith feel as Martin Luther said, there is no room for logic or reason in Christianity. He did, afterall, found the Protestant church, and he was an enemy of free thinking. The problem is, we are a free nation, and until we all can recognize this and accept it, we will continue this futile battle of words. Thank our Founding Fathers for the Constitution, if not for that, we would be in a world of trouble.

Just joined the group. Hope to post a piece or two, and read the material already posted.
In the meantime, so far, in my own postings, I'm proud of my poem "The Bushite Saga of the Eagle King" an interpretive re-working of ancient epic poetry with a clear connection to current situations. It was nominated the year it was composed for an award (some great entries also won the competition!) in a Cambridge Mass. Poetry contest. I look forward to an engaging involvment here too.

Jonathan, I agree with the premise, the US is not founded as a Christian nation. It's patently obvious from the varried writings of the founders. I don't have much else to say about it but I'd keep editing and re-editing until I figured out how to make the formatting work. Too hard to read.

Steve, that is exactly my point, yet when you bring that up, apparently it is one of the very few areas where it is an abstract thought rather than literaly. Apparently being gay is literal, but divine inspiration is nothing more a concept. Funny how they bend the rules to fit whatever purpose they may have.

With Nanci's assertion, besides the overwhelming evidence of intent on the wall, it ignores the part of the constitution that says no religious test will ever be a requirment to serve in public office in this country. A Christian country would be a little odd if it wrote that into the constitution, would it not?

The founding Fathers did not want our nation to be run by a religion; this was one of the reasons they left the Old World in the first place... think the Church of England. However, many of the Founding Fathers DID have faith in Christianity, and their faith was instrumental in how this nation was founded. Even the idea of "Separation of Church and State" was taken out of context. If you can, find it in the Constitutioin or the Bill of Rights. It's not there, is it? Where did it come from? It originated in a private letter of correspondence, and was blatantly used way out of proportion. Last time I looked, the letter a senator writes to a constituent isn't considered law, but activist judges used this to CREATE law instead of INTERPRETING it.
But were the founding fathers believers in God? Let's hear it in their own words:

Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living"; and that "the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]"
• 2) "The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
"Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…"
______________________________________________________________________

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
• "[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
" He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all." [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

" Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• "Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" "Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
" Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits."

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
" God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
"The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States."

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
• "In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America's many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

John Jay:
" Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

"Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson." [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
" The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever." (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• "It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
" We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
" An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia" Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

"It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us."
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; "Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America's Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
" It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author."
" The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal." "The Existence of God--1810"

Benjamin Rush:
• "I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism." "By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds." [Letter written (1790's) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• "Christianity is the only true and perfect religion."
• "If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary."

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education"
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
" I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
" Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit." [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
" At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
" The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men."

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

"The Bible was America's basic textbook
in all fields." [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

"Education is useless without the Bible" [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."


" It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ." [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words "So help me God!" to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington's adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], "Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

" O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon."
" I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me."
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
" Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof" [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• "Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea" –Ben Franklin

• "The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night." --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
"For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us."

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
" The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.

New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus' name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ

That sounds pretty clear as to whether the founding Fathers believed in God. Sure, I bet you will try to say many weren't, and this is true. But then again, alot of their quotes have been taken out of context... for example:
John Adams is recalling a conversation between a Parson and a Schoolteacher (pedagogue);
_________________________________________________________________
"...The Parson and the Pedagogue lived much together, but were eternally disputing about government and religion. One day, when the Schoolmaster had been more that commonly fanatical and declared if he were a Monarch, He would have but one Religion in his Dominion. The Parson cooly replied 'Cleverly! You would be the best man in the world, if you had no religion.'
Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamatic I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."
_________________________________________________________________

I have seen many people quote John Adams as saying that "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" --- but notice that this is taken severely out of context and that Mr. Adams is relaying his frustration with those who fight between denominations, supposing that their particular Christian denomination is best and should be the only one [as the Schoolmaster is noted as saying in the above letter]. John Adams believed that government should never impose a denomination/particular religion upon the people. And in his frustration he said that he almost wished there to be no religion, but this of course was not his true wish. His true wish was for peace between denominations and lack of governmental pressure to adhere to a certain denomination. As he said above, "Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell..."

Taking quotes out of context:
Notice how Adams could be misunderstood if one or two phrases were quoted out of context? That is exactly what is done by many who do not want to admit to our Founders faith and vision for faith in government. Many who use quotes improperly do so out of ignorance, others simply knowingly lie.

There are even those who claim that George Washington was not a man of God. For those I recommend you read "Sacred Fire' http://www.amazon.com/George-Washingtons-Sacred-Peter-Lillback/dp/0978605268/sr=8-1/qid=1172796718/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3712268-5940717?ie=UTF8&s=books

It's basically an end-all book to the debate on Washington's faith.



Long post I know. You may hate religion, or the idea that this nation was founded on Christian principles. This does not, however re-write history. Even today the idea of God being in control is printed on all currency. It was started Nov. 13, 1861. it was halted in 1883, and re-started in 1938. A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. Kinda funny that a non-christian based nation would take such a bold proclamation as a national motto.

You quote a lot of people that had nothing to do with the writing of the constitution, you quote a lot of those who did, out of context, and several, you quote wrong, because the source you took it from was wrong. You also quote some from their later years, when their beliefs had changed from what they were when they drafted or signed the constitution. I suggest you take a look at the treaty of tripoli, and tell me how Christian our nation was.

Ron, do you know when they made the personal belief change? Can you claim anything such as "they chose to believe God when they turned 62?" Probably not. As for quoting out of context, I list a perfect example of how athiests have been doing that, citing John Adams. It might very well be that the non-Christians have been mis-quoting them and you've been buying into it. Look at what they had to use to make the claim for a separation of church and state... a private letter. Talk about taking things out of context. You don't believe men such as James Wilson, James McHenry, James Madison, John Hancock, had nothing to do with writing the Constitution? What these quotes show, in their entirity, is that not only were the founding fathers believers when they signed the Constitution, but also the leaders of the 13 colonies and the members throughout gov't all the way to the presidency held their faith in God. All the people who try to claim that men such as George Washington was an athiest prove how twisted the truth has become. You claim the facts have been taken out of context. It's true, they have been, but you are pointing in the wrong direction.
In the opening lines of the Declaration of Independance, God is mentioned 2 times... why would athiests include that if they didn't wholly believe it?
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."



As for the Treaty of Tripoli, here's a simple answer in 2 points:
1. Do you really think that the Muslims would have signed any treaty with Christian 'crusaders?'
2. Just as the colonists originally left England for religious freedom instead of being forced into the English Church, having to purchase pews, they did not want our nation to be exclusively 1 religion. It's freedom OF religion. However, due to their writings before, during, and after the penning of the Constitution it is clear that their personal beliefs influenced their decisions as the nation was created.





Here's a short read reaffirming point #1.
Here comes that silly misrepresentation of the Treaty with Tripoli argument again
Every so often, I come across an ignorant burst of secularist thought about the Treaty with Tripoli. I'm usually amused by the lack of ability on the part of some to perform the critical thought processes necessary to derive meaning from text that contains complex punctuation. All hail those who don't understand semicolons yet consider themselves intellectually adept enough to divine "Original Intent!"

Alex at Marginal Revolution puts this "talent" on display quite nicely. He even links to avowedly secular humanist authors in his poor attempt to misuse the following:


"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The Barbary States (Think Barbary Pirates) were the equivalent of today's Islamists. They had captured and enslaved American seamen, as they had been doing to the seafarers of European Christian States for years. With no appreciable navy, America had to use diplomacy (and submit ransom) in attempts to free up navigation for its commerce in the region. This section was a reference intended to separate America from the lands that participated in the Crusades.

Alex tries to make a big deal of the fact that the there was no outcry when the ratified treaty was published in the newspapers. The citizens of the day who read newspapers were well aware of the issue and found no fault in the language because all it did was continue to differentiate America from Europe as not having an official state religion.

The argument that this section of the treaty is "proof of original intent" works the same way as "I did not have 'sex' with that woman." It's true only if you redefine what "sex" is. Folks, there's a reason why there were semicolons, not periods in the text. It is a real shame that today's vacuous minds, fed by insipid bastions of public education, do not know how to read it properly.

The treaty is a useful tool today only for those who insist on not only misreading its sentence structure, but also viewing it through their own contemporary lenses with no recognition that the contextual nuances were markedly different in 1797.

The United States was not founded/based on Christianity. If was, however, founded with a basis in religion. The constitution affords freedom of religion. There are numerous references to God.

Christians who tell you that Christianity is the cornerstone of the United States are incorrect. Atheists and agnostics who tell you that God had no presence in the minds of the founding fathers are also wrong.

I don't believe that "most Christians" are afraid of science. I follow your logic when you say that (the ones who do fear science) they feel that way "due to the fact that science can be proven and their religion cannot be..." I, for one, am not afraid of science, but I do not believe that all the scientific arguments against religion can be "proven" by the common definition of the term.

The people that populated the United States left England to escape religious prosecution and to be able to practice their religion with out the Government interfering. It did not call for the Government to ignore, abolish, or any other action religious activities or Icons. There are aspects of science that can be proven and there are a lot of theories. THe Big Bang Theory - a theory, the Theory of Evolution - a Theory, the age of the Earth, - aTheory. A lot of things Scientists took as fact or theorized are being rewritten all the time, because the had to make suppositions to begin to reach a conclusion. To attach people who aspire to a religion because you have an axe to grind is rediculous and makes you look small. If you want to disprove something, you don't do it by demeaning the people involved, you get your facts straight and then state your case. There are some things in the Bible that may be or may appear to be contradictions. Part of the problem is that it was not originally written in english. People (who are fallable) interpretted and translated it over time and some of the original meaning has been lost and some of the wording is misstated. But that being what it is, the Bible is a historical document and facts stated in the bible have been verified way back to even before the time of Christ. to try to attack it and call those who aspire to it names is no less bigotrous than people screaming intolerance for other things (race, sexual preference, gender, etc.) Some of our most intolerant people are those screaming for tolerance and then slamming everyone that is not a member of their special interest group. So take your soap box and go wash out your mouth.

Thanks for this article. I read a great book about this very issue - many of our founding fathers were indeed adamant that they were not basing our government on Christianity. And for those who think our system of law was based on the ten commandments, there are only 3 of those commandments which relate to laws - those prohibiting stealing, murder, and bearing false witness (in the case of perjury). All of these had been taboo in pre Judeo-Christian societies as well, way, way back.

Some of the comments are as long as the article, touchy subject. Live and let live, but that seldom fits the agenda. Good article, well written.

So, since I'm Christian, yet believe in the separation of Church and State and believe that America was founded as a nation with the right to freedom of religion, I must be some sort of walking contradiction? I don't agree with all that you have to say, but we also have the right to freedom of speech so I won't debate you on that. Good article nonetheless.

Great article, you get a 10 from me. It's about time we had some facts come out. And it still amazes me how there are still people trying to deny your facts. Facts are facts, and people who deny these facts, have no facts to support their side.

Exactly! and that's what many narrow-minded Christians fail to realize. The whoel concept of "In God We Trust" did NOT come from our forefathers, it was placed in latter. We should be thankful to our predeccesors for separation of chucrh and state. Other nations don't have that freedom, and that is a very sad thing

christian definition of persecution..."any act by those we deem non-christian that prevents us from subtlely to not so subtlely using the government to forcefully proselytize our religion, because it is so tenuous, riddled with contradictions and subtly wicked smug particularism that any intelligent criticism and pointing out of these absurdities is a mortal threat to the community of believers whose cowardice and mental weakness make tolerance of such beliefs unacceptable."

20 years ago you couldn't buy beer in Orlando on Sunday.

Wow, the funniest thing I have learned since taking a break from Gather is that no matter what, someone will attack you. SO here weeeeee go!
First off, anyone that has the nerve to berate me for what I have said, then turn around and say things such as " and who are you to say what MY GOD" or "You can take your soap box and..." are obviouslly poor examples of the religion they claim to represent. Big fact, whether or not you want to see it is that people like you are the ones turning people off to Christianity. Check your numbers, they are declining, NOT increasing.
Number two, what my point with this article was is that our country was NOT founded to be CHRISTIAN. It was founded with the belief that we should have FREEDOM to worship how we choose, what we choose without persecution of those beliefs. Too many of you blowhards are claiming that they "Loved Jesus" blah blah blah blah blah. That is fine, but that is not the doctrine they signed to force us all to. Last time I checked, I can choose not to believe in any god and am protected to do so by our wonderful Constitution.
So here it is, and the funny thing is, I will get yelled at for this too, even though it is logical. I will not tell you that your religion is wrong, and you quit telling me that my lack of belief in a religion is wrong. You are persecuting me as much as you claim that you are being persecuted against. So, quit being a hypocrite and follow, for once, what you, yourself, preach.

I like to make a distinction between religion on a micro and a macro level. On the micro level, an individual church, you have a community of like-minded folks who form a very valuable support group that will really go to bat for you. It is when religion goes "macro" that the problems really begin. That's when that church tries to impose its take on religion on other people in the community (which I think is rare). Or. far more common, when a Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell tries to influence the passage of laws, forcing their version of morality on everyone else. Abortion is a good example of this. Or evolution versus creationism (Creatiionism gives the term, "No-Brainer" a whole new meaning, in my opinion). Sometimes I think that the reason we have so many problems with Iran is that we are more like them than we like to believe. A European lecturer some months back was talking about American "exceptionalism." He pointed out that in matters of religion, American was not exceptional, but rather far more like the rest of the world than it cared to admit. In this realm, it was Europe, which is very hands-off when it comes to religion, that is the exception. We are the rule, and the rule is definitely not rationality.

Of course we were not. But in fact they were referring to some religion. They referred to a God and that in essence is religion. The problem today is that who ever came over with their beliefs means that they came over with their beliefs and not those of others who were already here. They sought to bring their beliefs on the "savages" that were here just like the USA tries to do that today on other countries. Why do we do that? Because an uncivilized country is hard to conquer. Bring them to fear the same God that we do and then it will be easy to conquer them. Bullshit, no religion is right. Anyone who wants to argue that point with me, I will be happy to accommodate them. Religion is the whole reason that we are in the mess that we are today. Anyone that wants to argue that point, I would love to hear from them.

The Religious Reich goose steps on in thier effort to force thier death cult on us all. Thier books say peace while thier actions say hate. I agree with this article 100%, emotive or not.

Well put Orchid. It is pretty double standard. How can they have their religion and take over a country and kill thousands of civilians. IS IT IN THE NAME OF GOD.

I admit to not reading all of the posts (way too much)...but I encourage this sort of open discussion. Clearly there is some pedantry, but also there is inquisitiveness, questioning, soul-searching (in both the religious and secular sense). Unfortunately there are those who respond with ideological double-speak (where clearly they have no idea of the meaning of what they say, but it is comforting). Ideally the discussion could be purely intellectual and scholarly, with each proposed fact being examined for evidentiary support. In practice this is very difficult, especially when one side of the argument is based on faith...something that by defintion cannot be proven.

Regarding the treatise about what our founding fathers intended, this begs the question as to whether we should put absolute faith that this small group of men who grew up in a time vastly different than today, should be be blessed with omniscience (pun intended)? I seek not to answer this here, but it does strike me as somewhat ironic.

David K...
I agree exactly whether we should put absolute faith that this small group of men who grew up in a time vastly different than today, Yes that is it the thing most of us or at least the God fearing part doesn't get. we should put absolute faith that this small group of men who grew up in a time vastly different than today... That is the whole way religions are based in our time and was based in their time. People put absolute faith in their forfathers and believe what they do. That is the problem today, we have a unbalanced president who lives his life on those beliefs and some of the country still follows him because it is news to them. We should not be in a state that evolution is not followed or at least believed to have some merit. Religion should not be and issue in the Presidents office. But now it is. What part of seperation of church and state don't those guys get...

I appreciate the attempt to set the historical record straight. I also think it important to point out that the personal religious beliefs of our Founders are irrelevant.

The men who wrote our Founding documents did not regard Native Americans, blacks, women, or people who did not own property as full citizens. Some of them opposed slavery, in principle; most, including George Washington, owned slaves anyway. Do we support slavery today, because George Washington owned slaves? Why, then, is it important whether George Washington supported prayer in Congress, or in school?

We have spent over two hundred years extending human rights and liberty to more and more human beings. Religious bigotry is one of the last prejudices to be recognized. Even in the middle of a heated struggle for equal rights for everyone not just heterosexuals, it is easier for an openly gay man to be elected to public office in this country than one who is openly atheist.

If freedom of religion means anything then it has to mean freedom to have no religion, also. Freedom of thought is either a full range of freedom of thought, or it is not free. "You can believe anything you want, as long as you believe in *some* God," is not freedom of belief.

I am, by the way, a Christian. A liberal Christian; AKA "damn heretic." :D The Christian extremists get after me and my kind as hard as they get after atheists and homosexuals and such. I'm not upset when you criticize extremist Christians any more than I feel I have been personally attacked whenever the behavior of Britney Spears or Paris Hilton is mocked. I don't feel a need to point out that "not all Christians are like that" any more than I need to point out that "not all women are like that." I do think that all of us who are for freedom of conscience are natural allies against all of those who are against it, and we'll be more effective if we don't kick each other.

There ARE liberal and moderate Christians who speak out against extremist Christians, just as there are liberal and moderate Muslims who speak out against extremist Muslims. You don't hear a lot of publicity about us in the media for the same reason you don't hear the voices of moderate Muslims in the media. We're not sensational enough. If it don't bleed, it don't lead.

We are out here, though: and we aren't being totally ignored bythe media: Washington Post.

Elinor,
The right to kill? is that was Roe Vs Wade was about? No it was about the right of a woman to decide... Thats it... Your probably against stem cell research too. right??? The Science that could save millions of people, but dam with it because an old book said it was wrong.

About the Bible and the religions it has spawned. I agree with someone else here on this post that most religious people have not really read their Bibles. What I have discovered is that the words and teachings of Jehovah are mixed into the life and teachings of Jesus in the New Testament. Only the first 4 books of the NT are confusing and this is why. Two being mixed together create confusion which was the intent i imagine. One would think that to mix the teaching of love that Jesus brought to the world with the teaching of the self stated jealous war-god Jehovah would not work but they have done so sucessfully.The OT is a horrible read but the writers are blantantly clear about Jehovah's intent and purpose. In the NT from Acts to Revelations it is clear. Only the 135 pages of the life and teachings of Jesus are contradictory. This is why Jesus warned the people not to mix the old with the new because it would not work. It creates pure confusion whereas anyone can prove anything by quoting the verses.Our forefathers knew why religion would do to the new country as they had seen the power of the church and it's iron fist of control and did not want to create that again. They said to trade freedom for security one loses both and it appears that that is what we are doing.

Patricia,
Good response but you failed to talk about the other religions in this world. The bible as Christians have it came from the Jews, and the new testament came from Christians, but many other religions are alive and well in this world so we have to think about them too. Or do we??? Maybe that is what is wrong with this world? America is right, we have the right religion. Accept Jesus or be left behind.... I don't buy it and many people of the world do not either. Accept one another, and their traditions and get along. That is all. .. we need to understand. There is no religion in that but pure acceptance and acknowlegement. We are all one people get along or we will all perish.

> Good response but you failed to talk about the other
> religions in this world. The bible as Christians have it
> came from the Jews, and the new testament came from
> Christians,

In the early days they were still Jews, certainly they came out
of the same people.

As to the country, I am not sure we were a Christian nation in the
sense of any allegiance to one sect, Catholic, Protestant, but many
many of the original people who came here did so to escape religious
corruption or persecution.

We certainly were not a Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim nation, way before
that we were a Christian nation, but a nation that understood the
abuses of power in both Church and State.

Sadly ... we do not seem to either understand this any more, or be
able to do anything about it ...and there even more sadly is not another
continent to the West of the Americas that those of us who might want
to could sail towards in hope of freedom! ;-)

Bruce K,
I think you nailed it... many of the original people who came here did so to escape religious
corruption or persecution.
That is it but said we were certainly not buddhist , hindu or muslim. You are very incorrect in that statement. Many people came over and many of them had different beliefs, more than probably we anglicans can fathom, what makes the US what it is today should be toleration of all religions and of all people. Which we know is untrue. Before we will ever be able to live as one society we need to be all as one faith, that does not mean all will practice all of the faiths but rather we need to respect all of the faiths. Religion tears apart the fabric of any society and as long as we have the different beliefs we will all be divided. THere should only be one faith, we are all one people, and if we can't get along we will all perish. No one religion is right, no religion is right for that matter. Religion is the downfall of society, no articulate, intelligent person, would argue that.

most people are ignorant in thier ways. That is it.. ignorance is the end of all religions. BEcause if you think you are right, in your religion, then you are most certainly ignorant. There is no religion that is right, that is the meaning of the word religion, belief without knowing, but when that thinking makes the turn to convice that anyone who belives otherwise is wrong, you know you have a religion that is wrong. You are all wrong. ...... Religion is not the way to go. Loving thy brother and sister, is the way to go.

I am shaking my head at you nuts. Best thing about liberals is they don't keep their babies, therefore freeing the future for the Christians who do.

The Founder's (in the Declaration of Independence) said ,"We hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed BY THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights...". This is enough to communicate that the Founders believed in a Creator, felt that everyone had a right and a responsibility to acknowledge/serve that Creator how they reasoned proper [not how they wished], and there wasn't any intent to dismiss the Creator. Other statements clarified that the matter was one of conscience so one shouldn't take a stand on HOW to attend to this important duty lightly or without proper consideration and thought.

Oh give me a break. What's that saying, "I won't dignify this with an answer,"? I've seen contortions before but this author must still have neck sprain.

I'm assuming the Group Owner isn't updating with more recent articles and I only hope that doesn't represent catastrophe? Will someone update us?
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