When seen but not heard lost favor to never say no, the gap between parental and public expectations widened. Nerves shattered, tempers flared, and patience levels bottomed when seen but not heard adults met never say no children in public, most notably in shopping areas and restaurants, and more recently on Internet sites.
After Jennifer and Alex budgeted for an anniversary celebration in their favorite restaurant and hired a sitter to stay with their children for the evening, they were disappointed when other children ran screaming through the aisles while they tried to enjoy their meal. Harold Brandt--generous as he might have been the first seventy years--grappled for patience when undisciplined Matthew Trout slammed a shopping cart against his cane, and Matthew's never say no mother smiled as her son raced toward another shopper. Members of the Sun Valley Internet Sewing Circle grew discouraged when eleven-year-old Beth interrupted every thread with multiple comments about her uncle's brain surgery because the members of the neurosurgery group bored her.
One side asserted the child's right to frequent any place unless banned by law; the other appealed to parents to use discretion. The debate expanded to cover appropriate complaints from by-standing patrons when parents failed to control or remove children they brought to public venues. Managers struggled to please both sides.
My position fell midway between the extremes, welcoming young voices but not rude behavior. I supported allowing parents to exercise discretion regarding when and where their children belonged, with veto power to other patrons and managers when parents failed to address disruptive behavior.
As so often is the case, some parents failed to self-monitor and responded negatively to outside requests. I heard an ad today for a kid-free restaurant. I found this petition for child-free seating. Is this where we are headed?
This, in my opinion, is another step away from civilized society. Cultured communities bear personal responsibility and the discomfort of setting and enforcing boundaries, before outside intervention is required.
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Comments: 91
I love eating out, and when kids are clamouring for attention, it drives me wild. It is hazardous for everyone when they run around - the servers, the kids, and other diners.
I agree that it would be best if people took responsibility, and taught their children to behave. Many do. But many do not, and I don't want them sitting near me in a fine restaurant.
As to the people who try to monopolize a conversation inappropriately, that is just another childish behavior. If the parents cannot teach a child, then sometimes other adults must.
Not everyone needs to be allowed absolutely everywhere.
I am also against legislation though. If I own a business, I should get to make the rules. It is my money.
I should be able to post a big ol sign outside stating it is both a smoking establishment, and children-free. I figure people can make up their minds from their whether or not they wish to give me their business. The guvmint needs to step off... as do petitioning type folks. They can tell me what they would prefer, sure, but it ain't their choice. It is mine.
(ohj... when will I learn to edit comments before posting?)
I have friends whose children are well-behaved, well-mannered, delightful little persons whose company I cannot get enough of. They are this way because their parents have taught them, disciplined them, and loved them. I also have friends whose children are monsters. These are the people who ignore their kids, use the television as a babysitter, enforce no rules or boundaries, and speak much about their "love" without once SHOWING it.
Cripes. I'm in full-on grumpy mode now, Sandy. Welcome to married life.
When I'm enjoying a meal in a restaurant I prefer child free dining. Part of dining out for me is the ambiance, quiet and luxury of being served where I can enjoy conversation with companions and the food.
When my kids were young, we taught them restaurant behavior at appropriate restaurants that were child friendly before we dared venture into an "upscale" restaurant with them. More importantly, they learned restaurant behavior in our own dining room too. When we went out they always knew if they acted up or broke from manners, they ended up in the car without dinner.
As for shopping adventures, I kept them actively involved in the process and taught them to be considerate of other people wherever they wandered. Running was for the outdoors, not up and down aisles in stores.
By the way, I only used the word "No" for things that would physically harm them like running in parking lots or sticking things in electrical outlets. Otherwise, I distracted and instructed them with positive words.
We certainly see eye to eye, here. I'd hate to see legislation making this mandatory, though. I would certainly love to see more restaurant managers take action if patrons complained. That petition blew my mind. If someone is looking for a child-free venue, they should go to the places that families with young children can't afford. I've never seen a running or screaming child in finer dining establishments.
I once overheard my daughter on the phone:
Wake her up? MY mother? Are you insane? I love my life. You will have to leave a message or call back later.
Smart kid, that.
But not all families worked hard to get acceptable behavior out of their kids. And many parents seem oblivious that their children are disrupting others. This really irks me. It is one thing to make a mistake and bring a child to an otherwise childless facility, but something else to let them run amok and bring discomfort to other patrons. So many times at movies or restaurants I have wanted to ask someone with loud children to pay for my ticket or meal. I've only been bold enough to say it once or twice, only to receive a confused look (or alternatively the middle finger).
This is not a problem that requires government action. EXcept for maybe the government needs to protect a mother's reproductive rights, but let's not go down that route here. This is an issue where we as a society must learn to communicate. Those of us wanting to enjoy a child-less (or at least quiet polite children only) environment must tell businesses that is what we want. We also, as adults, must begin communicating with each other. If I see a kid run over to an empty table and stick the fork in his mouth then put it back, I tell the restaurant and I go speak with the parents. If an infant cries through the entire movie called "Stomp: the nuclear detonation version- the movie" I say something at the end of the movie to the parents about how predictable the child's discomfort was. I used to think the best thing to do was say nothing. But I looked around and found nothing was all anybody seemed good at. So now I speak up. It's only a matter of time before the article is about "that man who is always demanding proper customer service and true-to-advertising environment". Man, he gets on my nerves when he asks for what the place claimed it had. I think we should outlaw complaining.
The solution here is "it takes a village" and the village idiot cannot be the parent. It's time we all talk to each other about our desires and expectations. We won't always agree. Sometimes we will disagree strongly. But it must start with a conversation.
1) Rampant children
2) Diners who talk on cell phones
3) People with execrable table manners
4) People who don't tip decently
5) Servers who ask "Areya still workin' on that?" of a diner who prefers to savor, rather than inhale, a meal
Well, there's a third reason although it's not a major cause. Some kids really are hyperactive due to a chemical imbalance.
TJ, again, you are not being honest. I did not "begin" hammering you. In the beginning, you professed disbelief that people did not understand what you wrote. I tried (privately) to explain to you how you could change your style and not offend half of your audiene in the first paragraph. I don't agree with much of anything you say, but cared enough about you to help you deliver your message so others would want to read it. You obviously want to offend and enjoy the controversy, so for you to accuse me of 'HAMMERING' you, when that is exactly what you want, is dishonest, once again. If you truly don't find my opinion meaningful, I am willing to bet that is only because I do NOT patronize you. Think about it.
Even so, I do not believe that small children belong in some restaurants. Certainly not black tie environments. I for one, fail to see why a person would take a child to a place like that, what could they possibly have to entertain themselves.
We've been dining out with our children from the time they were small. It's not that difficult. If they are brought out into that environment they learn what's acceptable.
This is one of my "proud" things about my parenting. I fail at others, but gosh darn it those kids can wait patiently to be seated, use their manners, and usually order their own food. They learned by being exposed to the situation.
If I can do it, then others can. If they don't, then they are lazy in their parenting and their issues are going to go far deeper than a bit of rowdiness in a restaurant.
I have also, walked out- once.
And then, we have those grown kids that we just can't take anywhere . . . I've known a few of those, too.
Manners are a dying thing these days.
Sad
I have kids...and when they were small, say too small to be well behaved little angels....when I went out for dinner with my husband
they stayed home, for my own sanity and the sanity of other diners
I didnt want to hear others people's kids being loud monsters
so I doubted others wanted to hear my kiddies...
I agree with Donna, once they were 3, they were old enough to be taught manners.
I have seen and heard many loud crying kids when out...
crying isnt bad if its a baby & the parents are attentive
it's only a bother to me anyway, when someone just sits & lets the kids run like crazy or scream in the same fashion!!! (read: not enforcing boundries of any kind)
I actually over heard one young mother say, "I like to give little Amanda her personal space", as she smashed her food into her high chair tray with bits flying through the air....
My grandson turned two years old in September. Of the first ten words he ever spoke, two of them were 'please' and 'thank you.' In fact, he could 'sign' both of these words (American Sign Language) even before he could speak them! His parents and teachers at daycare/school have certain expectations for him. In my opinion, this kind of expectation helps to produce happy, well-adjusted children, which he certainly is. (He's also brilliant and adorable, but that's another story :).
As parents, isn't this our job??
I'm ready to hear that other story -- about how brilliant and adorable that grandson is.
Sandy, I agree that limitations defined by age merely limit abilities. Children may not do things as adeptly or adequately as we do them, but they are incredibly capable when given an expectation to meet.
I'm one of those parents who EXPECT a certain kind of behavior from my children and exact out consequences if they don't deliver. And.. I don't mean beating them senseless either. Kids are usually pretty smart. If they know what's expected of them, and that there are consequences (e.g: no phone, no tv, grounded to their room.. or like Bonnie C. said, a trip to the restroom. I called it a " little prayer meeting". ) they will usually comply.
I too am of the age where kids were allowed in the neighborhood bars. I can remember being allowed to play with the balls sitting on top of the pool table while my parents sat and had a drink or 2 with friends. It didn't scar me for life either.
It's a shame that everything in our lives has become so over-legislated that simple pleasures can't be enjoyed anymore. And yet, there seems to be a need to legislate even further. *sigh. There doesn't seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel, does it?
During my lifetime, I have watched the overwhelming social conscience switch from basing self-esteem on doing the right thing no matter what, to accepting that anything is okay if: 1) I don't get caught, 2) I profit, and 3) it promotes "me and mine" over "them"
Thank you for speaking up against those parents that allow their little devils to torture us in public while they watch and do nothing to restrain them. It is certainly the parents' fault not the children's. Parents must understand that discipline and structure are required to have balanced and mentally healthy children.
As to over-legislation, it is doing far more harm than good. It is taking further personal responsibility out of the hands of parents. Between all the damn legislation and the nobody loses/everybody plays crap, you end up with kids shooting up high schools. And yes, I do think there is a direct link there.
Keep on legislating, folks... see where it gets you.
Freedom in America is dead and rotting.
The more we legislate to take control of parenting away from parents, the less parents feel the need to be parents... if you follow me. They tend to sit back and let the government raise their kids. Instead of taking control and teaching their kids, talking to their kids, holding thier kids responsible, we get idiots saying shit like Johnny didn't come home til 3AM, I want a damn curfew law now!
How much sense does that make? It irritates the piss out me.
And everybody sits back and acts all shocked when something like Columbine happens. they just don't get it.
If people fail to accept personal responsibility or enforce social norms long enough, legislation will always follow, otherwise there is total chaos.
When I go to Vegas, I stay at the MGM Grand or the Bellagio. The MGM Grand has an adult-only pool area completely separate from the screeching family friendly pools, and the Bellagio is so anti-kid you wouldn't believe it.
Mommy loves her kids, but when she gets a child-free weekend, she wants to go somewhere where little Susie isn't kicking the waiter or peeing in the pool while Susie's parents argue about who left the travelers checks in the room.
This cuts both ways, though -- my son has made me stand in the corner at home (my offense -- Mama broke the car!). I wasn't thrilled about breaking the car or about standing in the corner, but I figured I should be able to take it as well as dish it out. Plus it signalled to me that my son "got" the corner-standing idea.
There are a number of parents I would like to send to the corner when they let their kids run wild!
Madame Donna C. commented Dec 7, 2006 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Me too, me too
Mommy loves her kids, but when she gets a child-free weekend, she wants to go somewhere where little Susie isn't kicking the waiter or peeing in the pool while Susie's parents argue about who left the travelers checks in the room.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jackie I AGREE...
don't you Sandy?
I am going to Vegas mid January...I now know where I will be staying...ROFL
I taught them manners fairly young.
When I see children who have no manners, acting like loud brats
I want to walk out of places.
Thank you, Chris.
My parents taught my sister and I how to behave. As 3 year old children who were taught to behave, we were intolerent of other 3 year old children who acted out. "If we have to behave, why don't they?"
I'll never forget one insedent a few years ago, while Christmas shopping with my father.
I am legally blind. When I am WITH someone, I don't take my white cane, rather I choose to hold on to their arm. This allows both of us to walk at the same pace.
It was close to Christmas, and the mall was crowded. Dad and I were walking slowly. All of a sudden a little kid ran right into me, and I tripped and fell. Evidently Dad's left hand was full of bags, so instead of dropping a bad of crystal he'd just purchased, and catching me, he let go. Also, he didn't want all 230 pounds of him to come down on me.
All 150 pounds of me landed on this little kid, and the mother had the audacity to tell ME to watch where I was going. My father is not one to defend me, but that day he did.
"My daughter is legally bind and has a physical problem with her balance, and walking...why else would a teenaged girl walk arm in arm with her father?"
As pissed off as I was at the woman, I had to laugh. Knowing that Dad was on my side I spoke up.
"If I am intolerent of the neglect you have snown, towards you child here tonight, it is only because my father and mother raised me to understand the consequences, were I to behave that way myself."
Not very often my father defends me, but that night he did. He also looked like he wanted to ram his newly purchased crystal down that broad's throat!!!
Child free sections? They shouldn't be manditory, BUT if an establishment chooses to have one, that should be their right.
Child free pools? A few years ago Mom and I went camping near our old cottage....now I remember, it was 1999. The pool had a rule that persons under 18 were not allowed in the pool between 2 and 4 PM. I was only 17 at the time, but no one would have known it, by my appearance or behaviour, so no one questioned me as I enjoyed my child free hours in the pool.
Now that I think of it, better adult hours would have been between 8-10 PM or something like that, since children often go to bed early, and by 4 or 5 PM their parents will want to get them ready for dinner. It was a pretty good idea, though.
Thanks Sandy, for posting this timely article. I'm glad somebody did!!!
There isn't a restaurant in N. America that I couldn't take my 5 kids when they were little. THEY insisted on good restaurants (they all have very expensive taste -- my oldest son will kill for lobster, one girl is a fanatic for escargot, and my youngest daughter loves filet mignon). They all knew they had to be good to get the good stuff.
Next time you see them, please tell them how lucky they are.
...and what about the other five?
I will tell the other five you said that, when I meet them. Knowing you, and knowing the time you are referring to, I know precisely which five of your kids you are referring to. tehehe.....
Are you saying to millions of Gatherites that you raised five little angels and your ex-wives raised five little devils? LOL
My friend has an 18 month old who is not disciplined. She won't tell him no and lets him "explore" the world for himself. Ergh. It's straining our friendship and she's realizing she's made a huge mistake. The kids is nuts when in public. Ten times worse than my little one.
I think it's laziness. People don't want to invest the time it takes to raise kids. I think you'll find these parents lazy in other aspects of family life. Like making sure their kids eat healthy and eat enough. My friend feeds her son a diet of sugary fruit juices. And, he nibbles here and there. But, is significantly underweight weighing less than my nine month old. Because, all the juice gives him diarehha. And, he gets glasses of egg nog. Sugary sweet again.
It's sad because kids lacking manners are neglected children. They don't know any better; their parents do.
I hate to ask, but if your child is stealing the cane of an elderly person and won't quit when you say no...is it wrong to smack their hand?
And, if your child is stealing food off another dinner's plate when you are at a resteraunt, is a smack on the bottom so out of line?
I am ready to hunt down the person who invented those roller skate wheels in the sneakers things that are so popular now. What I would like to do them is in direct violation of the Geneva Convention. The little darlings race through the stores with these shoes on, and their parents think it is *so cute*!!!! I was taught to walk slowly through the stores and to look with my eyes, not with my hands. I was the only 3 year old who was actually invited to go to our local Hallmark store. My mother was terrified to bring me in, because every square inch of store was covered with breakable things. I just admired things, and if I wanted to see something, I asked one of the salesclerks.
Restaurants are even worse! Nameless and I went out for a late dinner at Sam Seltzer's Steakhouse in Port Charlotte. It was almost 8 pm when we got seated. We ordered our dinners and drinks, and were sitting together, talking. We got seated next to the table from Hades. There were 2 little children at the table, one a toddle baby and the other about 3 or 4. Who brings their little ones out to dinner at 8 pm???? The kids were overtired and cranky. They were screaming, pouting, throwing food, etc. The parents and the grandmother ignored them. They were talking to each other and fussing with a cell phone. They complained to the waitress that they had to wait so long, so they got a free appetizer. They left the table a mess, and did not bother to leave her a tip. The waitress apologized to us and said that if they had another table available, they would have moved us. I could see the kids acting out in a place like McDonalds, but this is a semi-fancy place, and not exactly cheap. (Dinner and drinks for us came to over $60.)
My mother began taking me out to eat at a young age. We started with quick trips to the fast food place, and as I started to learn good manners, I was treated to Conran's, a local ice cream parlor. (I used to get to go there as a reward after physical therapy). My Grandma and Pop-Pop Coldwater ( oculd not pronounce their last name), when I visited them in Florida, took my mother and I to a very fancy restaurant, and the waitress told my mother that, at 2 1/2, I behaved ALOT better than some of the ADULT patrons!!!
However, when on vacation in Carmel, California we went to a few ritzy resteraunts. AT least ritzy for us who have stayed close to Applebees :))) But, I wouldn't go in unless there were other families with kids my son's age. Paying a few hundred for a meal that involves micro managing a squirmy child just makes the evening (an money spent) worthless.
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