Faith and Irrelevance

I would contend that there is evidence. We believe first and then we see. What we see after we believe is the evidence. I have seen instantaneous healings, miracles and the like. They aren't supposed to happen in our physical world, but they happen when we believe.

Well Tony, I have never seen any such thing nor have I ever met a credible witness to such a thing. I suppose it is possible that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle saw fairies but all the evidential pictures appear to be pretty clearly faked. And they happen when who believes? The healer? the healed? the audience? any one of the above? If belief by somebody was all it took miracles ought to be a dime a dozen. Not the stuff of urban legends and tales of the "I have a friend who has a cousin who knew of a lady whose finger grew back." variety, which 99percent of all tales of miracles are. If you saw such things and you are sure that they were not faked then your belief is not faith, it is belief based on evidence. If as you indicate you feel they happened because you believed then I pity you. The responsibility to believe must be an awesome burden. Knowing what a moment of doubt might cost must be a terrible strain.

A persons religion is the high end of their attempt to understand and react to reality in general. A person attempts to construct such an understanding is based on:
1. Empirical and personal experience.
2. Reasoning and logic.
3. Faith in authorities or writings
4. Instinct. (fear, awe, revulsion for the abnormal or stange, greed, and desire for authority over others.
5. Emotion. (ex. loneliness, need to belong)
6. The apparent consensus of a group (s) or socieity.

Their understanding is based on a mix of varius priorities and proportions of the six caegories above.

The concept of God, in the christian religion, is based primarily on biblical and ecclesiastical authority. That concept is then framed within the bounds of ones sense of the six caegories.

Excellent analysis Gary. I certainly feel that items 5 and 6 in your list are the benefits that most 'church goers' find most valuable and of course they are very valuable to individuals and societies as a whole. Item 4 also very very important and almost universally denied as somehow beneath 'human beings'. I think that I find most religions, and peoples reactions to them, a problem because of their reliance on instinctive reactions (item 4), while mostly denying that people have them; their honoring of Faith (item 3); their denigration of experience and logic (item1 and item 2) and; their application of pressure through the controlled consensus and the need of acceptance (item 5 and item 6).

Many of the comments above are slightly ridiculous, not very brainy, and just plain silly: for instance, since the existence of the human species there have probably been trillions of people who died a better, less depressing death because of the belief (faith) in God...Actually there are many, myself included, that find faith a bit archaic once you reach the level where you "know of God's existence," not just believe. When you check the historical and recent records many, many folks were happy at the moment of their death because of their faith and/or knowledge of the existence of God. (When I use the term God, I mean and/or only Goddess.)----To state and believe that "To have faith is a flaw not a virtue," is almost like burning all the physics books on Earth. Some things are eternal, obviously, when do are tiny intellects reach the point where we know everything that there is to know about "existence?"----Yes religions, in many ways, have their faults but so do the pseudo intellectuals on both sides that refuse to look further then their noses.---If you reread your own stuff above again; don't you sense some insecurity there? And some fear. And some anger...Of what, I'm not sure? Apparently your intellects stopped somewhere...On another tangent consider this...In terms of evolution: there are, for comparison, amoebas on one end, and our human intellects at another end...Sixty million years ago we were something else, today we are who we are...Where does this development stop?...Do you really believe that during eternal time that this so called intellect we have is all the vast universe could come up with?---Now look at your noses!

Clifford, On what evidence do you base your following statements:
"Some things are eternal, obviously,"
"many folks were happy at the moment of their death because of their faith and/or knowledge of the existence of God"
"for instance, since the existence of the human species there have probably been trillions of people who died a better, less depressing death because of the belief (faith) in God"

I think it should be fairly easy to provide evidence that numerous people have died horribly because of other peoples 'faith' but a lot harder to provide any evidence of your stance.
And what does this mean? "(When I use the term God, I mean and/or only Goddess.)" I can only presume that the word 'only' in your statement was a mistake. You were trying to say 'God and/or Goddess' weren't you? Do you go for only one or one of each or are there a bunch of deities?
And this thing; "Do you really believe that during eternal time that this so called intellect we have is all the vast universe could come up with?" For one thing 'eternal time' is an oxymoron, but primarily I wonder where I said that we (human beings) were all there was or could be? Did you find some invisible ink between the lines?

Well - I am impressed with all but the next to the last comment. I found the question and other comments ANYTHING but ridiculous or silly. Based on a discussion at the "Brain Talk" group - I state that I have NO belief in "God" as one may understand her/him/it. I believe in the Law of the Universe; which itself is the essence of both our own life and the universe. We (in Nichiren Buddhism) identify this ultimate reality as "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo", the uni-verse! That's my story and I'm sticking to it! We live eternally and experience effects for all the causes we make. I will choose to live in such a manner so that at the moment of my death in this lifetime my life-condition is as high as possible so as to be reborn in a high life-condition in the next existence. - jg

Jared and Dan: First statement, I stand behind the common sense of existence, at minimal; the physical existence what exists within what we consider to be space, if you two are not sure about this, phone Princeton University and ask for the Physics department. Second statement, Yes: numerous folks have died that way, but how about you calling, for instance check the history of events in the Catholic Church, check out how many Jains pass on, (I call myself a Jain ) sometimes are have a way of leaving this Earth that amazes some people and trust us we're mostly happy when we do; and Jared, you call yourself a Buddhist, can't you help me out with the above?, don't many Buddhists go on to the next plane (or maybe nowhere) in a comfortable way because of their beliefs?, as for God/Goddess, who knows...for all I know their might be twenty-five grand ones up there...don't you see what you're doing?...At least admit that there might be others on another planet somewhere that are a billion years past our intellect...You're not telling me that's not possible, are ya? As for eternal time being an oxymoron, I guess in certain it might be? But if I compare "external time" to a moment, I'm not so sure about that. And if "eternal" is just an adjective and only just, there's a problem...I know...my logic might be off...but then again...remember the "billion year" statement above....Now why am I saying this again...And knowing that you're "invisible ink" comment was clever...Upon you're admittance, apparently, let's suppose that the intelelect is hundred trillion times x past our intellect...wouldn't that be kind of Godlike? And if you don't go for that, try looking up at the Sun sometime and compare the difference in size...there's kind of a difference, isn't there...you're not going to tell me that at least in terms of physical size that your as great as the sun, are you? Jared; thanks...are definitions are different, that's all...I kind of believe in Karma...I've never heard of "Nichiren Buddhism. I'll check it out. You all have some good Holidays!

I think we know God through his attributes. The bible says he is truth and he is love.
I would say that this implies that he is honesty also, and empathy. I don't think I go to far to say also, that he is patience, tenderness, justice. I could go on, but perhaps you see my point. When we try to live our lives in this spirit, God is with us.