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by Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer
Member since:
December 19, 2005

I Think He Was Looking For Feminine

November 28, 2006 04:14 PM EST (Updated: November 28, 2006 11:32 PM EST)
views: 305 | rating: 8.9/10 (41 votes) | comments: 108

I suspended my loathing of ruffles and frills long enough to let Mom explain the saccharine blouses.

"We were Christmas shopping." She spread the hideous garments on the bed, forcing me to look at them. "I told Dad we needed to keep our eyes open for something you could wear with the black suspender pants."

"Plain," I reminded her. "I wanted something plain, with no collar." After years of making clothes that I liked, I knew she remembered the no collars, no frills rules.

She gave me her one-eye roll, usually reserved for children who were annoying but not gruesome enough for the two-eye roll. "He looked through every rack in Fashion Shop, chose these three, and wanted to know which I thought you'd like best." Both eyes open now and locked in place, the intensity of her stare begged forgiveness. "I said you wouldn't like any of them."

"So you bought all three?"

"These aren't your Christmas gifts."

Years of Christmases, anniversaries, and birthdays crowded disappointment out of first place in my growing collection of emotions. Dad did not choose gifts. He left that task to Mom, unless the gift was for her and then he took one of us to make the important decision. I tried to imagine him sliding hangers across racks, comparing blouses, and picturing them on me. It was like plugging Hoss Cartwright in June Cleaver's role. Why me? Why had he gone completely out of character on me?

I picked up the solid white blouse and shuddered. "Mom, this has ruffles on top of ruffles. It looks like something a clown would wear."

She laughed. "It probably looks better on."

I dropped it back on the bed, refusing to touch the others. The red blouse made my head ache. The second white one might have been tolerable without the pink-flowered trim on the tuxedo pleats.

"The pleated one is my favorite." She must have read my mind. "I think it would look nice with the cummerbund waist on the pants."

The Nehru collar did look less torturous than the clown ruffles or the tall, red collar with two extra buttons on the neck, guaranteed to interfere with swallowing. "If I choose one, will that satisfy him?"

"Probably. You like the pleated one?"

"Why is this important to him?" I huffed, turned away from the painful display on the bed. "He hates to wear a tie. Why would he want me to have this crap on my neck?"

"I doubt he thought about collars," she said. "I think he was looking for feminine. You'll have to ask him if you want an explanation."

"I don't want to hurt his feelings."

She graced me with more eye action, this time delivering a rhetorical question. But you want me to do it for you?

"I'll wear the pink flowers." I did not say I would leave the house, or even that it would be in this lifetime. She seemed pleased when I snatched up the three blouses and left the room.

I softened by Christmas and wore the red blouse with a black skirt. Dad, short as ever on flattery, said I looked nice. I choked a thanks past the buttons on my collar and wondered what kind of nice he had in mind. Beautiful nice? Daddy's little girl nice? Virginal nice? Or thoughtful enough to wear miserable, ugly clothes to spare someone's feelings nice?

I would have bet a week of extra chores that one box under the tree held a plain, no-collar top that begged to be worn tucked behind the cummerbund on New Year's Eve. I would have lost that bet. Disappointed, mostly in myself for having selfish expectations, I put my Christmas gifts away, still wondering what I would wear with the suspender pants.

My date arrived early on New Year's Eve, but I was prepared. I sat on the couch; coat zipped to my neck to cover the pink flowers on my ruffled blouse, hoping our host had decided to move the party outdoors so I would have an excuse to keep the coat on all night.

Dad walked us to the door and recited the usual have fun, be good, call if you need me spiel in a distracted tone. "Where's your car?" he added at the end.

"My dad dropped me off," the date said. "I thought we'd walk."

I looked from Dad's questioning brow to the date's anxious weight shift to his escape leg. "That sounds good," I said. "It isn't far."

Together, we convinced Dad to put his keys back in his pocket and go inside. I promised to call him for a ride when the party was over.

When we stopped at the shopping center to scrape ice from the soles of our shoes, I decided the definition of far depended on temperature. One mile at zero was farther than three miles at seventy. We moved fast, stomped to remove snow and activate blood flow, wiped our noses, held hands to stay warm and keep from falling, and told each other it was fun.

I appreciated our host for keeping the party inside, and his parents for the crackling logs in the fireplace and hot chocolate. I forgave our friends for laughing when my date's icy shoe caused him to make a grand entrance on his ass. I remain grateful to the date for providing that moment of hysteria in which I could remove my coat and not feel as though every eye in the room was on the pink-flowered pleats.

Most of all, I will never forget when he recovered, looked over at me, and said, "You look nice." That fast, I forgot to question nice. I wore the pink-flowered blouse to school on the first day back after Christmas break, and the clown collar the next.

 

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Expand Tags: random musings, family, femininity, ruffles, life, life lessons, gifts, father daughter relationships
Expand To Groups: Getting To Know You, Nonconformists, Constructive Criticism, Love, Childhood Stories, ~Writing from the Heart~, GrinningToothlessHags, V For Vignette, Memoir, The Sandy Knauer Fan Club
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Comments: 108

Lydia O. Nov 28, 2006, 4:19pm EST
Sandy, I loved this...it's such a slice of life thing, and a great true voice. Thank you! I believe the word is "tenola"?
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Nancy S. Nov 28, 2006, 4:27pm EST
I love it, also. I can just imagine you, the stubborn teenager, not wanting to hurt your father's feelings, but not wanting to be caught dead in those blouses.

Very well written; you kept me going even though it's past time for me to go home! Gotta run!
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Parke F. Nov 28, 2006, 4:36pm EST
I can completely relate to the feelings behind this piece. Well-written, honest, real. Loved it!
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Apryl Just Apryl Nov 28, 2006, 4:40pm EST
Wow, I really love this. I like these kind of home based stories,especially about our youth. I could feel your blush when your date complimented you! Absolutely wonderful. There's the gift! Thank You!
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 5:25pm EST
Thanks, everyone. I have been in a 'defining moments' mood for a while now. I do think this was a crossing point in my life. At the very least, I learned to trust my Dad's advice about how guys saw me. I might - MIGHT - have learned a little about thinking ahead and accepting a ride instead of walking in the cold. I felt that warm blush again as I wrote this. If I get real brave (or maybe drunk) I might take a picture of that one eye roll. I can do it just like she did.
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Lori (Dr Devience) Leidig Nov 28, 2006, 5:28pm EST
You spin quite a story, ma'am. Easily envisioned.
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♯ ♪ Nov 28, 2006, 5:32pm EST
Love this story, and it was very well told.
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David Rochester Nov 28, 2006, 6:29pm EST
I found this very poignant, and felt a little wistful ache of loss for the tomboy who converted after she saw what ruffles could do. Ah, the strange politics between dads and daughters . . . moms are so much more straightforward with sons. "Get your hair cut, you look terrible!" Stuff like that.
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Magi the magical poet is riding the wind again Nov 28, 2006, 6:33pm EST
Delightful! The real gift always, Sandy, is not the object but the thought behind it - your dad was honouring you.
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Mary H. Nov 28, 2006, 6:34pm EST
Sandy, such a well-written story. I enjoyed the reading of it immensely!
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M N. Nov 28, 2006, 6:58pm EST
What a joyful experience. Thank you.
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Nippy Katz (not his real name) Patriotic Troll of Gather Freedom Nov 28, 2006, 7:07pm EST
It's funny how someone of the opposite gender can change your point of view when you're a teenager. :)

Loved it.

Lived in Illinois when I was in high school. I remember walking in zero weather. That's one reason I'm glad I came back to CA and never left again. :)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 7:07pm EST
Thanks again, to all who read and commented. David, your perspective is interesting. My youthful perception was that fathers were usually more vocal and controlling with daughters - things like "you will not pierce your ears, wear make-up, leave the house in a mini skirt, etc" But I admit that my perception was probably skewed by my father's opposite approach.
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Skipster Too Nov 28, 2006, 7:37pm EST
Post the picture. I'm having a Dickens of a time visualizing that one-eyed roll.
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David Rochester Nov 28, 2006, 7:52pm EST
The politics are more complex with fathers and daughters, I think -- on the one hand, they don't want them to be attractive to young men (because they used to be young men and they know about that) and on the other hand, they do want them to be, because they know it will make them happier in the long run ( as exemplified by your father's pushing you to be feminine). It seems more straightforward with mothers and sons . . . mothers want girls to want their sons. Sometimes when it comes time to let the boy go, it's a problem, but I think it's safe to say that most mothers want their sons to be desirable. The father-daughter thing is a lot more complex, IMO. Then again, I'm speaking from the perspective of never having been either a father or a daughter, so I may be full of crap as per usual.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 8:23pm EST
I can't believe I did this. There's a picture of the one eye roll, followed by a picture of both eyes so you won't be left with that other vision of me (and I don't know why the second one copied three times, I'll try to edit the extras out when I'm not so frustrated).

David, that makes sense to me. But then, I've never been a father or son. It's interesting to hear/read different perspectives.
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David Rochester Nov 28, 2006, 8:30pm EST
Oh, I should have probably mentioned that I've also never been a mother. I would assume that to be pretty self-evident, but I've noticed an increase of Reading Perception Challenge on Gather in general of late, so now I'm paranoid.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 8:35pm EST
So true, David. (not to mention that someone has probably called you a mother at least once in your life)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 8:52pm EST
DW, feel free to hang it on your fridge and laugh every day, or on the wall for darts, or to scare the kids into submission . . .
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Marcia T. Nov 28, 2006, 9:06pm EST
Sandy,
I love this piece. There are so many great lines. For example, "It was like plugging Hoss Cartwright in June Cleaver's role. Why me? Why had he gone completely out of character on me?"

I think I had a white ruffle shirt very much like the one in your picture and a navy blue pleated skirt to wear with it. Yikes!

Also, I liked your varied versions of "nice." In fact, I liked this whole piece. It was nice. ;-)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 9:16pm EST
Marcia, unfortunately I don't have a picture of the blouse from the article. Oh my, we are talking huge ruffles on top of ruffles, truly like a clown collar, only they weren't only on the collar, they went down the front of the blouse. It was almost impossible to find the buttons buried in there. I found a tamer version to use here.
(and thank for mentioning Hoss and June - I was afraid I would be the only one to remember them)
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Marcia T. Nov 28, 2006, 9:38pm EST
Sandy,
Did you ever see that Seinfeld episode where he accidentally committed himself to wearing a ruffled shirt, very much like the one you're describing, on a national tv interview? He called it a puffy shirt and Bryant Gumbal teased him about looking like a pirate. It was a great episode. I think you would get a kick out of it.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 9:48pm EST
I do remember that! Thanks for reminding me so I could laugh again.
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Tonia, who hugs trees G. Nov 28, 2006, 11:16pm EST
Sandy - this was wonderful to read, a lovely little peek into the world that you inhabited with your parents.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 11:18pm EST
Thanks, Bongo, Jill, and Tonia.
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Skipster Too Nov 28, 2006, 11:28pm EST
Tenola for the photo addition!

Dear Readers: Do not attempt to try this in your own home. You might get stuck that way!
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 28, 2006, 11:34pm EST
You're welcome, E.B. (that's twice you've made me show my real self, hope you're happy)

And thanks for the warning. It wouldn't be a very pretty world if too many of us were stuck that way.
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Webbie Fades to Black Nov 29, 2006, 12:55am EST
"It was like plugging Hoss Cartwright in June Cleaver's role."

Now THERE is a verbal image that is not to be missed! (Nor taken lightly!)

"One mile at zero was farther than three miles at seventy."

Proven fact, Sandy. I swear. I clocked it on my way to school as a kid. It's exactly 3.14 times farther at zero than at seventy!

What a great article. I wish you'd been around to hear the discussion between my father and I regarding the wearing of shirts AT ALL! (But Daddy! None of the OTHER boys have to wear them!) Thank you for taking me back to happier times when the angst was all that was between us.

(I'm scared to go look at the eyeroll. Maybe I'd better drop my tenola first?)
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Kerry (A tree, not a lemon) .. Nov 29, 2006, 4:13am EST
Excellent story Sandy, it made me ache for a childhood I never had.
I enjoyed reading it:)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 29, 2006, 11:03am EST
Thanks, Acuity.

And thank you, Mr. Turner, for your in-depth critique. I might agree with many of the technical points, but had to chuckle with the over-writing comment since I usually do the exact opposite. I will study each of your technical points more carefully after I write this, because I do appreciate your time and advice. One thing off the top, I was taught to use the em dash sparingly. I admit that my most recent writing class was five years ago and that is long enough for the trend to have changed again.

I will have to think more about your comments regarding the emotions and my pulling the story back to the father/daughter relationship. After a couple of reads, and comparing your responses to others, I am left trying to decide if I expected the reader to fill in too many blanks with personal experience/emotion, and if my personal experience is so unique that it needs more explanation before anyone will understand it. The only peace I needed to make was with myself and the blouses, since I didn't complain to my father, ask him to return the blouses, insult him, dislike him, or ask him to buy the one I wanted. I found that peace, and as far as I know, his was never at risk.

Again, I thank you and will be back after I give this critique the time and thought it deserves.

Regarding age, I thought the fact that the mother was 'keeping an eye out' for the blouse told the reader that this girl was probably not old enough to drive or buy her own clothes.
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Helen W. Nov 29, 2006, 12:55pm EST
Sandy, a well-written story! And it's interesting to see A Turner's critiques too. I am amazed that he noticed so many details.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 29, 2006, 2:47pm EST
Hi, Helen! Nice to see you, and thanks.

I appreciate A Turner's critique. I belong to novel critique groups where we all go over one another's work with that much attention to detail. I had written very few short stories, essays, or articles when I came to Gather and thought I was coming to a writing site where I would learn to do those well (or at least better). So, I am excited to see this level of critique.

I do have a question, Mr. Turner. Did you know I was looking for this level of critique and come find me? Or are you making the rounds and offering this to everyone on Gather? I consider you a treasure if you are making the rounds.
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barb w. Nov 29, 2006, 2:50pm EST
Sandy, there are so many parts to this story that I love, I'll have to come back and make a list.

I can see your Mom doing the one roll and the rhetorical roll as well. (P.S. your eyes are still blue-beautiful.)

I love the way you bring your father's presence back to me, his kindness and his love.
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David Rochester Nov 29, 2006, 2:58pm EST
Mr. Turner, I admire your intrepid spirit in performing copyedits in so unforgiving a format. I had the same edits, but was too lazy to remark upon them, because it drives me nuts not to be able to redline directly on the copy.

I would add this small fuss: That fast, I forgot to question nice.

I don't think the reaction was probably one of "forgetting" to question it . . . I think it is one of the word suddenly being redefined in your mind. "Forgetting" implies that on some level, you think (or thought) that you should have questioned it, but you didn't. Given that this is, IMO, the climax of the piece, I think the impact of the sentence needs to be clearer.
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David Rochester Nov 29, 2006, 3:40pm EST
Yes, it really does . . . usually, I confess, I edit with my Mont Blanc fountain pen, which is equipped with plain black ink; if my clients cannot distinguish my notes from the text, to hell with them.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 29, 2006, 3:47pm EST
Barb, I thought of you as I wrote this. Knowing that you are around and might read my essays makes my quest to keep them totally honest even stronger. I am honest to a fault in my writing because it hurts me to alter an experience enough to make it more entertaining. I am much more comfortable with pure fiction than a mixture of fact and fiction. Thank you for your comments. Of course, I thought of my parents as I wrote this, but your comments truly made them real for me, in a current moment. I don't know if I can tell you how much that means. (My mother is still alive, but not herself)

Thank you, A. (I don't like the mister stuff) If you have been watching, I guess I should thank you for being brave enough to come here. Not only will I not ask you to take your show elsewhere, I will provide links to some of my other articles should you run out of things to do and want to give me more of your time. Going through my recent article list might be frustrating, since about half of it is silliness.

I printed your critique and took it to the couch where I do my real thinking. You raised great questions and I trust you to at least head me in the right direction. My only critique of your process is that you came in without stating credentials or publishing any of your own work, leaving me with no reference point from which to weigh some of your comments. On the other hand, I have read David's work and interacted with him enough to feel as though I know his writing style and his personality. His comments will carry a little more weight with me because of that relationship. I hope you will publish soon, so that I can develop the same level of understanding with you.

Thanks, David. I agree - forgot is not the right word. I'll work on that line.
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Webduck * Nov 29, 2006, 3:55pm EST
"I decided the definition of far depended on temperature. "

I believe this could be included in the sayings book too: "The height of the jump is directly related to the length of the snake".
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Marcia T. Nov 29, 2006, 5:04pm EST
I'm glad I returned to check out the comment thread on this piece. I'm learning some things through A Turner's constructive critique. I don't have the background in writing to give this sort of feedback myself but I appreciate it when others are able and willing to do so.
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Travis B. Nov 29, 2006, 5:05pm EST
LOL poor slob! 10!
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 29, 2006, 5:18pm EST
Marcia, I'm glad you came back and found the critique helpful. This is why I advocate putting the critique out here in public (as opposed to private message). I also think having a diverse group and receiving different forms of critique is helpful. Often in a group, each person is looking for something different. Hearing from each of them is valuable. I will use the comments from everyone before A. to help sort out the comments he made about the relationship.

Thanks, Travis and Webduck.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 29, 2006, 9:30pm EST
Thanks again. I do understand the idea of the call-back. The problem is that I thought I had one, but obviously I assumed I had brought the reader with me when I hadn't so it must have been all in my head or heart. (I'm glad I went to the grocery instead of spending that time on the couch because now I have even more to work with - I also hope you aren't going to bill me for private tutoring. I have no Gather points.)
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Timothy V. Nov 30, 2006, 12:57am EST
Sandy...Great article! I really enjoyed reading this. You are a very good writer and story teller.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 1:13am EST
Thanks, Timothy and Mary. I hate punctuation, in case you don't already know that about me. My first editor said it looked as though I had taken a box of commas and tossed them at the book to land where they may. I might be a little better now, but not much.
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Mark Jepsen Nov 30, 2006, 2:11am EST
Sandy, I'm so glad I'm male... the worst I ever had to deal with were the hand-me-down tweed sportcoats that I'd inherited from my older brothers... why did they always find it necessary to stick some sissy flecks of red or pink (or purple!) in the midst of that more manly-yet-totally-barfy field of gray tweed fabric? And then, of course, my dad would always take a handkerchief and fold it so it was sticking half-way out of my jacket pocket. As bad as this was, I really can't complain after what you've endured.

Mr. Turner, while I appreciate your insights into perfected writing form, I read Sandy's work because of here amazing insights and wonderful commentary on all things life-defining. I need instruction on proper word-form, usage, consistency of tense... the list is long indeed. Might I suggest that, after an initial instructive critique, you might place a link to another location that is more specifically geared to an exhaustive analysis of the works of various contributors, with their approval, of course. I would certainly be open to such constructive criticism, and it sounds as though Sandy would, as well. Nonetheless, when I read Sandy's work, and the comments made in response to it, I for one would prefer to focus on how much we enjoy it. A moderate amount of "Elements of Style"-esgue criticism is certainly appropriate, but I'm not sure several pages worth are warranted in the comment section. My opinion only... forgive me if I'm out-of-place in saying so.
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Mark Jepsen Nov 30, 2006, 2:13am EST
And now, realizing the length of my comment, I fear I owe all of you an apology myself!
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Marcia T. Nov 30, 2006, 8:46am EST
I very much enjoyed each of A Turner's comments on this thread. The example of the Seinfeld episode "callback" gave me greater understanding of that technique. I feel I'm getting a free education and I love it! Whether you choose to take any of his suggestions, Sandy, is up to you of course. I recall one of my favorite art professors saying that one of the defining factors in the quality, originality and integrity of a piece is the artist's CHOICES. (Okay, I didn't put that in quotes because that's not exactly what he said but something like that ;-) People are free to suggest and suggest but we each have to decide for ourselves. Maybe that's obvious but I needed to say it anyway. Regarding the Hoss and June comment, I really liked your version a lot but I think A Turner's suggestions would make it even better. His was more vivid and took into account those readers who don't know who these characters are.

I chucked as I read Mary's comment about being a little nervous about comma usage. I feel the same way. And I love your comment back to her.

I can see Mark's point about critique and I would tend to agree if these comments were left on articles where the writer has never given any indication she/he wanted a critique. However, from what I have seen, Sandy, you have made it abundantly clear you WANT detailed critiques. In fact, if someone were to ask, "Who on Gather is most vocal about wanting critiques?" I would say, "Sandy K."

And if I were asked, "Who on Gather is most likely to give an uninvited and unwanted critique?" I would also respond, "Sandy K". I don't mean to be harsh. It's just an honest opinion given to someone who has time and again cried out for honesty in evalution.

While I learn so much sometimes through critiques, even on other people's work, I loathe a clearly UNWANTED critique forced upon another. Then it feels like victimization instead of constructive critique and it's painful for me to watch someone being put through that.

Sandy, I think you are an excellent writer. I would love it if you wrote more of these types of articles. Your choice to focus on what's wrong with other writers and what's wrong with Gather has discouraged me from wanting to check out your work. This essay about your childhood reminds me that you really are talented and that I ought to check out your work more often.
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David Rochester Nov 30, 2006, 10:58am EST
Sandy -- I have been puzzling for some time over why this piece worked so much better for me than it did for Mr. Turner. I know myself to be a very astute reader, as Mr. Turner obviously is also. I figured it out as I was wheeling my trash can out to the curb (there was no correlation between my action and my feeling about your work, I assure you).

The reason I didn't miss the "callback" (great explanation of that concept, BTW, Mr. Turner) was that to me, it was there subtextually. When the date saw the pretty blouse and found you to be attractive, I filled in the unspoken second part of your title: I Think He Was Looking for Feminine . . . Because He Wanted Me to Feel as I Did with My Date Looking at Me Admiringly .

That being said, it would be easy enough to tie it up with a quick back-reference to your dad, even if it's as simple as the remark you made in your comment about subsequently trusting your dad in regard to how boys saw you.
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Heather B. Nov 30, 2006, 11:47am EST
Sandy, I enjoyed this story. It's funny.... I read the comments and by the time I got to David's at the bottom, I saw it clearly too. I think he made a valid summation regarding mentioning "dad" one last time. But, other than all of that, this was a pleasurable read. By the way, I could relate to your mother in this piece. Unable to get my teen to dress nicely, I bought her an outfit "from dad" which was so completely out of character that she puzzled over it for weeks. I never did fess up. That was one Christmas she looked---feminine. :0)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 12:41pm EST
David, crazy as it might sound to some, I think you will understand this. I am flattered and excited to know that you thought of this as you wheeled your trash to the curb. Your mention of the subtextual callback tells me that I did bring at least one reader (I think others) with me to what I thought was my callback. My goal as a writer is usually to bring the reader to an emotional point without telling the reader how I feel, or using words to say, "Okay, now's the time.. come over here and feel this with me." I think you read more from the heart and AT more from the head, and having the two of you here is a wonderful treat for me. My challenge now is to find a way to make AT get the same message, without compromising my 'make feel' don't tell goal too much.

Heather, my mother was only concerned with the bra. If I wore a bra, she was happy. (Now, my daughters have taken over that role.)

Mark, too bad we didn't know each other back then. You could have passed those pink-flecked tweed coats my way and I would have worn them over the ruffled blouses. We could have made each other so happy.

Marcia, thank you for your comment. I appreciate that you did come read this and am happy to hear that you enjoy the critiques as much as I have. I still believe that the invitation to critique is understood when anyone posts to a "publishing" forum that has both a rating system and comment section. Even without those things, anything published to the public is open to critique. People have sent letters and called me on the phone after seeing my work in the paper. When we 'publish', that is understood.
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David Rochester Nov 30, 2006, 1:31pm EST
Oooh, I have something I really really really want to say about target audience, but I'm on my way out the door, so I can't. The upshot of it is (I guess I'm making time) that every piece usually has an ideal reader, a reader who gets it mostly, a reader who gets it kind of, and a reader who sees no value in it whatsoever. One of the potential advantages of Gather, if people were actually reading and being honest, is the exposure to see in what proportion these readers exist for a piece (I am not writing well because I'm in a hurry and also am verbalizing from some location other than my logical brain -- sorry). Anyway, my point is that the writer can decide how wide to cast the net. For some pieces, a writer may care about reaching only the ideal audience. Other pieces may require a wider audience, and the piece can sometimes be tweaked to cast that wider net without compromising its integrity. IMHO, there are some pieces that cannot be tweaked without compromising their integrity severely (this isn't one of them -- I think there is some gentle finessing that could be done so you'd reach the Mr. Turner faction as effectively as you've reached the Mr. Rochester faction).

It is also worth noting Mr. Turner's explanation regarding why he read the piece differently. As writers, we are doing only half the job of creating a written piece. The reader is a co-creator of the finished product, and each reader brings his own expectations, history, viewpoint, etc. to his reading process. The same reader at different points in his life will read the same piece through completely different filters. I have to leave this incomplete and go now or my music teacher will be mad at me.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 1:49pm EST
Mr. AT, I think I might challenge that statement. Some "daddy" heart slipped through in your comments.

David, I might have to love you for saying this: One of the potential advantages of Gather, if people were actually reading and being honest, is the exposure to see in what proportion these readers exist for a piece (I am not writing well because I'm in a hurry and also am verbalizing from some location other than my logical brain -- sorry). I have been totally ineffective in my campaign for the potential advantages of honest review. There are so many, and testing the diverse audience is at the top of that list, in my opinion. You two have demonstrated this so perfectly. I am a straight-from-the-heart person. It is almost impossible for me to look at my own work with an A Turner eye. It's great for me to know that I reached the hearts of readers who are like me, but finding out why I did not reach Mr. Turner the same way is the missing half of what this Gather experience could be. The critique is not negative; learning is always positive. Even if I should decide not to revise this article (I fully intend to), I will hopefully carry this experience with me in everything else I write.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 1:54pm EST
Thank you, Bongo. (you are a real writer to me)
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Heather B. Nov 30, 2006, 3:35pm EST
Sandy ~ Correct me if I have misunderstood. Your daughters have taken over the role to make sure you wear a bra?
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 3:39pm EST
Heather, they know better than to try to make me do anything. They use the positive reinforcement approach and celebrate if I put one on.
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Heather B. Nov 30, 2006, 3:47pm EST
ahhh.... supportive family.
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Kat B. Nov 30, 2006, 4:23pm EST
I haven't felt compelled to comment on an article on Gather for some time even though I've still been reading from time to time. The interaction between Sandy, A Turner, and David Rochester has taught me many things about language and writing that I didn't know. Thanks for the priviledge of following along.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 4:26pm EST
Thank you, Kat. I know it is asking a lot, since this was time-consuming, but I hope A Turner and David will do more of this on other articles. I will follow both of them and hope.

Heather, cute pun.
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Kat B. Nov 30, 2006, 4:38pm EST
I hope they do more too Sandy. I'm not a writer, but am an avid reader and following this along is like having an insiders view into the process of writing, which is very cool. I hope to see more of it on Gather.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 5:49pm EST
Thanks, Sophie and Kat. I hope others will join me in following Tinman and David around if they are willing to do more of this.
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Rachaelle (parenthetically tired) E. Nov 30, 2006, 6:48pm EST
Hiya Sandy,

Great reading as usual. I would echo David about the "forgetting nice." In the last line.

When I read it I thought, "aw, that's all he had to say? What does he mean, nice?" Maybe it's because you felt ambiguous about your father's "nice," that I wondered about the subsequent nice. It seems such a non-committal thing to say.

Anyway, great post and wow, lucky you on the critique.

:-)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 7:02pm EST
I do feel lucky, Rachaelle. Honored, grateful... And I will change forgetting on the rewrite.

Regarding 'nice', (don't know if this has a place in the story, I'm just talking now), I am not like other women in many respects. Maybe because my father was a man of few words and many actions, I don't trust a great deal of flattery. I knew my father adored me, thought I was beautiful, etc. His "nice" was enough for me, as far as he was concerned. The questions were really more about me. What kind of nice did I want to be.
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Rachaelle (parenthetically tired) E. Nov 30, 2006, 7:52pm EST
What kind of nice do you want to be, Sandy? Would a nice by any other name smell as sweet?
This last comment was interesting or maybe I am just not understanding and maybe I am reading too much into a simple statement (which is entirely possible).
Since he was so spare in his verbal flattering, how did you know he thought you were beautiful? And you say that his 'nice' was enough for you as far as he was concerned but was it enough for you? Your subsequent questioning would make it seem like it wasn't. His lack of adjectives has created a woman that distrusts flattery. Maybe because you don't believe it?

Rachaelle flattering Sandy: You have such pretty eyes! You write so well! You are insightful and so supportive of other's on this site (which would indicate to me that you are supportive of others in your life too - a notion strengthened by what you write about your family and children).
I am being silly and fawning in my flattery but really it's all sincere. ;-)
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Heather B. Nov 30, 2006, 8:09pm EST
Sandy! You've been hiding your youth behind that rocking chair far too long. Glad to see you out of your support hose.

(I think)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 8:19pm EST
Rachaelle, thank you. I appreciate your kind words very much. I also accept and feel them, because at fifty-two know who I am, what kind of nice I want to be, and I recognize sincerety. The best way to explain my dad is to say that when he looked at me, I knew I was beautiful because I saw it in his eyes. I walked every step surrounded by his love for me, without having to hear those words from him (he did tell me he loved me, but not every phone call or every time I walked through the room or said good night, like some people do). My mother was the opposite. She doted, praised, compliment, flattered - everyone, all the time. I saw and felt her love the same as I did his, but his very few words meant more than her very many because when he said them I knew he was especially moved to do so. I hope that makes sense.

I wrote this article about a young period, before I had ever really been in love and when I was still trying to 'create' who I would become. As a child, nice meant saying nice things, behaving myself, opening doors for people, and not picking the neighbor's flowers. At fifteen, nice gets a little deeper. Do I wear an ugly blouse rather than risk hurting my father's feelings? Do I kiss on the first date? Do I try to make everyone smile? I might need to make that part of this clearer, also. I tried to 'show' who I was through that part, and by how I played off the date. Your questions add another layer to what I will consider on the rewrite. Thank you.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 8:21pm EST
Thank you, Heather. I sorta did that by request. I'm not sure how long I'll stay out, but it is kind of nice to be ME once in a while.
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Heather B. Nov 30, 2006, 8:30pm EST
I understand. I toyed with the idea for a while before I did the same. I wanted to gain readership based on my writing rather than my face. But, I think the face is kinda nice after a while. You have nice, smiling eyes. Watch out now for the Gather "hawks"--those guys that just look for ladys pictures to croon over. Not that I'd know. Well..maybe a little. Well, maybe not. No.... it's all in the writing.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Nov 30, 2006, 8:32pm EST
Thank you, Heather. I posted some younger pictures before for crooners. I might keep the smiling eyes for a few days and see how it feels.
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Pearl 2 Dec 1, 2006, 1:14am EST
Wow, Sandy!... I was going to bed but then I saw that you have posted a new story. I came to read and found your story with a treasure throve of comments! This is what I am looking for on Gather — the interaction between writers and their readers... where a plain reader like me can soak in the wisdom of good writers and their informed critics.

A. Turner, where have you been hiding? Welcome, welcome, welcome!

.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 1, 2006, 1:35am EST
Glad you stayed up for this, Pearl. It makes me very happy to see that others appreciate the A. Turner/David R. team work here as much as I do. .

(and I haven't forgotten the article I promised you, just haven't decided how I want to do it yet)
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Webbie Fades to Black Dec 1, 2006, 1:43am EST
Wow!

I've had a couple of David R comments but none in this kind of depth.

My only encounter with A. Turner has been in a semantics disagreement over the term "Author" which he suggested means only formally published writers. (I disagree, published HERE counts for me and writing of a quality that I would BUY constitutes the same.)

Regardless, I both dread and welcome both inputs into my writing. Good stuff here. I've learned much already.

You're lucky to be first among us, Sandy!
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Lyrical Peace Dec 1, 2006, 4:36am EST
The value of 95 comments depends on whether they're "Good Job Sandy" comments or meaningful critique.
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David Rochester Dec 1, 2006, 11:40am EST
Note to readers -- I do not perform in-depth critique on a piece unless I have good reason to think the writer wants it. I know Sandy is more than open to fussing over her serious pieces. It seems to me that many things published on Gather, even when they are serious, are in the first-draft stage, and are not appropriate to critique in this manner . . . I'd feel like a hawk dive-bombing a field mouse. But I know enough about Sandy as a writer to know she's OK with it, and sometimes I do see writers who ask for critique either in the body of an article, or in a comment.

"Author" makes me think of someone dead. I prefer "writer," myself.
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Ludie Gee Dec 1, 2006, 11:40am EST
NICE!!!!!!Good job Sandy!! loollololl.
This is a wonderful piece and I enjoyed reading it a lot. I have no critique as I am not qualified to give any. Were I qualified....... I wouldn't have any.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 1, 2006, 12:29pm EST
Thanks, Ludolf and Lyrical.

David, I apologize for the comments I made that implied your willingness or my expectations that you would want to do indepth critiques on everything you read. I got a little carried away in all of this (it was like having Joe Poe back for a day) and did not mean to put pressure on you or A Turner. I was encouraged by the number of people who were appreciative of the activity. Many people on Gather are qualified to offer critique (once again, not a negative word). It does not have to be as inclusive as what A Turner offered - a line or two with one suggestion or question might lead the author/writer/copy&paster to consider a small revision that would help him/her reach more readers. Even those who ignore or slam the critique sometimes learn from the experience and apply it to later pieces. I've seen it happen here - even had a couple send private messages to thank me later.

(my opinion about first drafts - if I click on a "published article" that is obviously a first draft I will make sure my time and click are not wasted)
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David Rochester Dec 1, 2006, 12:49pm EST
I shouldn't write before I have a little bit of coffee :-) I didn't think you were implying any willingness on my part or expectations on yours . . . I sensed, rather, that some readers in this thread were a little alarmed at the prospect of their work being fine-tooth-combed, and my comment was meant more as a reassurance that I wouldn't do that without having reason to think it would be welcome. Sorry for the lack of clarity . . . I am soooooooooooooooooooo not awake.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 1, 2006, 2:29pm EST
Nicole, I know others prefer private critique, also. I hope you (and others) see the value of public critique after watching this thread (there's another good one on Rachaelle's Article. If A Turner had sent his critique to me privately, David would not have jumped in. Others would not have offered input, and I might not have had all the questions I did. By having this exchange in public, the benefit to me was enhanced and others found something to take away from it as well. This was a much more appropriate use of the critters' time than if they had corresponded with me privately. And, this will remain here for anyone who wants to use it in the future.

The biggest misconception about me is that I think everything published on Gather should be about a serious topic. That is far from the truth, as should be obvious by the number of non-serious articles I publish. I do think we should put our best effort into everything we publish, it should be original (not a copy of an email we received this morning or a joke we found on another site), and it should serve some purpose in addition to seeking points.
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David Rochester Dec 1, 2006, 2:59pm EST
Ah lahk bein' callt a critter, ma'am. Youse kin round me up ennytahm.
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Laura Serena aka AstroGirl Dec 1, 2006, 8:00pm EST
Oh the pain, the suffering that parents inflict on teenagers with their clothing choices. I still have the scars. No wonder they don't send 11 year olds to law school.
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David Rochester Dec 1, 2006, 8:46pm EST
Sandy, another critique here: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976849564

Curious to know whether you think the format I used there is helpful. It seems much clearer to me, though it makes for a damned long comment.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 1, 2006, 8:53pm EST
Thanks, Kenneth.

Bongo, I saw your comment and went to Mr. Burke's site (have to pay for the articles now?). I'm sorry I didn't thank you and tell you that.

Astro, would you have divorced your parents? I was really pretty lucky (or stupid). My mother made most of my clothes and I was happy witih them.

David, I will check it out and leave a comment there.
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Laura Serena aka AstroGirl Dec 1, 2006, 9:07pm EST
No, but I would have sued them for the pain and humiliation and suffering. (Not really. Actually, except for my Mom telling me the grossest boys were cute in a voice loud enough to be probably heard by them, my parents didn't embarass me any more than those of most kids.)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 1, 2006, 10:25pm EST
Funny, AstroGirl. Fortunately, my mother and I had the same taste in guys.

(My daughter and I are a different story)
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zzzzzzz ZZZZZZZ starless night Dec 2, 2006, 12:40pm EST
A wonderful story - but the comments, oh yes, the comments bring hope that a heartbeat might be returning to Gather. I gave up Gather for dead after reading that disgusting bird crap story, but now I wonder if all those droppings you've been accused of leaving on this site have fertilized the soil and what we see now are the beginnings of new growth. Alberto Turner's critique with the comments following is the first bloom.
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Ferrero R. Dec 2, 2006, 2:41pm EST
Sandy your article is wonderful and I am so glad I read it. But what really excites me is the feedback in the comments. This is so wonderful, and I am so glad that people are really feeling free to give constructive feedback without worrying about backlash.

I've said it many times before....if I paid for a writing class, I would welcome and expect feedback and a critique of my work. Here we are getting it for free, and should welcome the gift. Someone actually took the time to give us pointers, and whether we agree with their ideas or not is not the point. The time is the point...not a fluffy, how much I love you response...but some real feedback that shows that they made an effort to understand and respond to what you've written. How refreshing! I hope there's much more of this to come!

By the way...I for one welcome any feedback of anything I've written (although lately I admit I haven't written a thing because of the way Gather has gone). So for any of you that care to give me a little of your time you will not find someone who resents it, but instread, thanks you for it.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 2, 2006, 3:05pm EST
zzzz might have a point about the bird droppings. I have seen more of this in the last few days, and it is exciting. Thanks, ZZZ and Ferrero, for reading my article and for appeciating what happened here as much as I do.
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Lisa B. Dec 3, 2006, 11:18am EST
I really enjoyed reading this and your Father sounds awfully sweet even though he wanted you to wear ruffles. ;-)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 3, 2006, 11:36am EST
Thank you, Lisa. (and he was, the sweetest man ever)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 3, 2006, 9:38pm EST
Bongo, that's funny! I used to eat onions like they were apples. My dad said that would all change when I found a boyfriend. My first boyfriend at a raw onion every day. I think it is interesting how we garlic and onion lovers find own another.
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Mark Jepsen Dec 4, 2006, 4:40pm EST
I'm going back to my cubicle to play tetris... (turns and leaves, trailing a train of toilet tissue from his heel as he mopes down the hall.)
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 4, 2006, 4:51pm EST
Mark, now I can't remove that last comment and correct the own/one error.

Why are you moping? You have something against onion breath?
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Mark Jepsen Dec 4, 2006, 6:10pm EST
Sorry about the comment edit/removal thing, Sandy. I did give you a day, after all.

Don't worry, onion breath and garlic breath are not a problem. I always just make sure to give as much as I receive... otherwise known as mutually assured destruction. Ironically, this tactic results almost totally in collateral damage, with the main aggressors remaining unscathed. As for moping, that's how I always am when I'm walking my toilet tissue train down the hall.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Dec 4, 2006, 6:30pm EST
Nice of you to wear the train, since I forgot mine.
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Aileen F. Dec 4, 2006, 7:02pm EST
I could so relate to this, through similar events with my father.
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