Has anyone else noticed that Clay Douglas is gone. This man might have been controversial on occasion in his writing but for the most part he was brilliant. Most of you who have had the privilege to read him know what I mean those of you who hadn't have now lost the ability to ever know what you were missing.
His writing was phenomenal in my opinion. He could reduce you to tears of both laughter and heartfelt sorry with a skill in wording that touched the soul either way. In a world where life can be down right abusive to the average soul, there was always gather and with the click of a mouse you could be transported to hysterical laughter or a bonding in sorrow that could astound you.
I am for the most part just a baby member here at gather, I do not know it's past, and now I greatly fear for it's future. I have heard the rumor of those who attack until the subject of their animosity has caved and left in either frustration or disgust. However, in all honesty I do not know who these people are. My wok is new and not read enough to find itself attacked by these people. However I considered this man not only an asset to gather but a friend. I do not know where I stood with him, it was not important for him to give back a confirmation of such. He gave me more than I could ever ask for in his writing.
He was also a man of unselfish giving, I will not go into why I say this but I know it is true because this gift was extended to me personally by him. Those of you who never got to know him, you have lost more then you know. Those of you who did, will understand why I am in tears as I write this article. For the first time in my life I don't care if my spelling is correct or my grammar is perfect. That which I once loved an held dear, a pride in my spelling and grammar, has been reduced to a despicable tool of demise to others. I am wounded deeply by this beyond anything I could imagine.
I thought I found a place to share, to give and receive only to find that it was a lie. Unless everyone conforms to the standards of a few, they will be pursued, insulted, drive by rated, made fun of, and their characters attacked because some people do not like how they write. My God where are the adults?
I do not know who these people are but my question is why are your rights more important then anyone else's rights?
I will mourn the loss of this great talent and continue to beg for his return. I will stand up for those attacked and not bend. I do not care about points so you cannot hurt me there. I am here to write not to conform to anyone's wishes but my own. I hope that those of you who feel the same will take a stand with me. THIS MUST STOP! It is unfair for any individual to be able to decide what is allowed to be published and not published other that the Gather Staff which created and owns this site. Please I implore you before we lose this precious gem called gather, this community of diversity both good and bad, stand up and be heard. WE ALL BELONG HERE! We were all invited personally by the gather staff, we do not need anyone's validation.
If I offend I am sorry but this was the last straw for me, I can bear no more of this senseless nit picking and bickering to a point of losing parts of our community.
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Comments: 148
I am utterly heartbroken.
I've joined many a fight here at Gather to make things better. I've pretty much had my hat handed to me on every front.
For me too, this was a final straw.
If you have ideas that can turn things around, I'm open to them, but I'm hesitant, having been burned quite a lot of late.
I have to wonder if it's really worth it, and I have to ask, is that the same question Clay asked before his new image appeared?
I wish there was a solution, but the only one I've heard lately is to do just what you have done here: write something worth reading, and support the good writing that is being published here.
But, I hear you, my friend. It's a painful loss.
ignore the game, place yourself above the silliness, it is part of the online world,
usually brought on as compensation for having too many, or too small sex organs...
On topic, does anyone know why Clay decided to leave?
I don't know what the answer is but I am tired of seeing what I held up with honor used as a tool against people. My plan is that until it ends I will flood the pages of gather with everything that I have seen slapped down in the past. I started with this .. number two is here:
The Demise of Gather -- Stand Up And Be Heard
It is not just about Clay though that was the one that threw me over the edge. It is about the rights of everyone here. Who among us is really allowed to decide what someone can and cannot write. To me that would be the gather staff, and I don't see them complaining or removing members. It is not fair for anyone to dictate what can and cannot be.
I understand Lloyd's point that it's online, and we need to rise above it. However, as writers, some of us take a certain emotional risk in putting our creative work out there to this community. It's a little different than blogging, or MySpace, or a more casual forum. I find it disappointing that some members do not choose to realize that when they comment. Sure, they're entitled not to like something, but to attack or criticize the writer personally is, IMHO, going too far. If you don't like my writing, tell me the piece sucks, but don't make a personal judgement about who I am as a human being. People's writing does not always, or even often, reflect who they are, and it's a very ignorant and closed-minded mistake to assume that to be the case.
Even in first-person writing or creative nonfiction, there is a separation between the person and the persona. We would all do well, I think, to remember that when looking at a writer's work.
This is kind of off topic as far as Amber's thread goes, but I think it really gets tough when someone is writing essays and part of the reason their work is problematic is because the writer's thought process really is faulty, which is kind of a personal judgement. Bill Allin is a good example of a writer with this problem . . . his writing needs to improve in a way that is inextricably linked to how he seems to actually think. It's hard to critique his writing without making personal judgments about him.
But I don't think that was the case with Clay -- every time I corrected him, he was genuinely grateful and gracious; and I did see some inexcusable personal remarks made to him on his pieces, as has happened to other satire writers who run into readers with no sense of humor.
David you know how much I respect you and love your writing. I think you state some great points. I am just tired of sitting and doing nothing. My fear is that people like you might be next. I am a peace maker, but again I say, God help those who make the peace maker mad. At this point unless asked by the community and those I care for and respect, I will not relent from standing up for the rights of those attacked anymore.
Tomorrow I will do more. I will have to quit tonight soon as 4 in the morning comes early but I am not done!
I will try to respond to this in the morning. I did leave you a response at your other comment and I think it will explain some. Right now I can hardly see as all of this has come to a head in me tonight and I just cannot seem to stop crying. I don't know if you can understand it but this was a safe zone to me, a place where I could express without someone telling me I could not. Critiquing is one thing I am all for that. Ratings are personal no one will rate the same way, and because there has been so many gripes about what people write people see the point system as a defense or destroy tool now.
I just cannot for the life of me understand why people cannot respect the rights and views of others in the same way they expect their own to be respected. However, again I am angry and one often is less then intelligent at these moments. I will try to approach the issue better when I am calm and I can see past the swelling again.
I am sorry if I offended any in my rant but I do feel the issue is important to every member of gather. I am willing to do what it takes, perhaps I just need to know what others feel that is.
Good night for now though I have to be up at 4 or at least be able to see by then. I think sleep is not in the works tonight.
If You "Thot" Gather Was Bad...
Didn't we used to have a sense of humor about this? Good Gather writers leaving, I mean? It happens. Writers are indeed sensitive (and sometimes impulsive) people. While this is a sad day for Clay's fans (I include myself among them, actually), the sky is not falling.
You have a good point, Parke, but from my POV, the issue isn't really about Clay . . . it's more about an increasing tendency to member-bash. A person should be able to express a dissenting opinion without being called names. The argument can always be made that this is just the 'net and it shouldn't matter, but even if the object of the abusive language doesn't take it personally, at the very least such behavior makes it far more difficult to have meaningful debate and exchanges on this site, as the discussion gets lost in flame wars. There's a difference, I think, between these two approaches:
1) You're misinformed and need to do more research ( insert hypothetical explanation of misinformation here .) It's hard to respect your point when you seem ignorant of your subject.
2) You're stupid and you're also probably gay. Just come out of the closet and get it over with.
I'm seeing more examples of approach #2 as time goes by. Clay or no Clay, it's disappointint.
By the way, I am pleasantly surprised to learn that David Rochester can make a typo on occasion... and I'm going to wash my hair in disappointint right now. That'll take care of the gray!
I try to stay away from the member bashers because I am really interested in reading good articles and fiction.
I agree totally with your comments above and think this it Amber's point as well.
The question is, what do we do about it?
Rise above and ignore? Call out the callers? Go away in search of a utopian group that plays by civility rules?
I've seen attempts to critique the uncivil out of the way.
I've seen attempts to ignore it in the hope it will go away.
I've seen attempts to directly challenge this sort of behavior.
I've seen many efforts to highlight the positive in the hope it will drown out the negative.
Now I've seen Amber's beginning of an attempt to stand firm and refuse to allow negativity to gain a foothold.
What I haven't seen is a dent in the trend.
Where do we go from here?
2) Joe, yes, totally that's what we're here for. But what stinks is when a serious writer such as Clay gets high enough a popular profile that he becomes a bashing target. I don't know any mature writer who minds honest criticism, even if that criticism says I hated this as long as there's some reason why. But that's not what's happening.
3) Webwriter, it's difficult. I have said I don't even know how many times that one obvious fix is for Gather to permit comment moderation for site owners. That way, the site owner would be able to remove offensive and abusive comments. Granted, he could also remove any comment he didn't like, but on all sites I've ever been on that allowed comment moderation, it's very seldom abused in that way. This would be, by far, the easiest fix. There would be no point to abusive comments if they could be removed, and I think the incidence would fall sharply.
In the mean time, there are two other ways to deal with a flamer, both of which are usually effective:
1) Ignore the abusive comment completely . This is tough, because other people who comment in the thread tend to engage the abusive commenter, even if the writer ignores it.
2) This one may seem weird, but it works very well with abusive people in real life. Agree with it. What the abuser wants is to be engaged. The engagement and resulting flame war completely sidetracks the comment thread and makes it about the abuser, rather than about the article or the writer. If the abuser is agreed with, there's nothing more for that person to say. Again, this requires the cooperation of other people commenting in the thread, but in some ways it's more effective than ignoring someone. If someone calls me an idiot, and I say: ''Yeah, you're right -- I am," then what more is there to say, really?
If you're going to put yourself out there to be judged, and this is what every writer is doing as soon as they publish, you have earned the right to thoughtful response, be it negative or positive. Unfortunately, the negative here has been reduced in large part to outright bashing. I've always believed that if you must complain, at least have a solution that you feel might work, much like David Rochester does - just see his comment above.
Clay was and is a satirical and sarcastic individual - it's a big part of his charm. I shall miss him. He deserved better.
You are right about that Amber! Whether we are recipe writers, joke posters, or enjoy freebies, it is ALL interesting.
Minni good for you don't let anyone make you feel you don't belong.
Bravo Dawn
Parke perhaps the sense of humor was our problem, and we missed the real problem -- why?
David you are always so insightful -- are you in my head? -- you are absolutely right the point is not about Clay, he was just the catalyst.
I Agree Joe
Web forgive my tantrum a more thorough apology is on it's way
Gary .. Confused? lol The answer shall be posted shortly
David you are an amazingly insightful man.
Elaine I know I agree with you and am sure many others do
Travis I appreciate your opinion thanks for the possible scenario, closure will be hard to come by though for some of us.
Bingo Shannon!
As far as the "white noise"....I think he is trying to show us all that the only way we can save Gather is by (each and every one of us) becoming less of the noise and more of the content.
Today I re-published 3 articles from my earliest days at Gather. They weren't widely read and were of decent content. (At least I think so.) I didn't have the time or the wherewithall to do something new and better, so these stand as my statement for now. I'm going to get back to real writing. Pronto. No more white noise for me. (Well, ok, maybe a little now and again for fun, but I'm changing my habits and my focus as of RIGHT NOW.)
Clay warned me once in a comment about the problem of being bashed. I suppose you are right. I have to ignore so much just to find the golden nuggets. I think that maybe I have tolerated it and shouldn't.
Please everyone now that I have my head back on straight I would like to explain what I wanted to do. By explanations and thoughts can be found here:
Community In Action -- A More Realistic View
I really like what David had to say, about the persona. Which is untouchable. We really are different people even if you try. And if not, okay WHATEVER
Amber, you have very strong paragraphs - did you have a different picture up at one point?
Cheri no need to clarify I really think you presented your comment well and everyone knew what you meant. However thanks for the clarification.
With that I will say good night until the marrow. ;-)
I learn from this discussion that a few other good writers have left this place in pain or in disgust. Is there any hint of any organized conspiracy to sabotage the site by driving away its most productive and creative, but vulnerable, writers?
This to me was a well written and worthy response. Thank you for taking the time and patience to give me and those who commented your opinions and thoughts.
I really would suggest that you take the time to make this an article for others to comment on, as it is likely to go unnoticed here. If in fact you do decide to do such I would greatly appreciate an e-mail so that I might participate in the comment dialog.
Please find a catchy title so that it will be almost certainly read. If you lose the swear words it will not get flagged and be open to a larger audience. I really hope to see it in the future as an article for community viewing.
The person who introduced me to Gather left in disgust because of the influx of Bzz Agents and Gather's unwillingness to stand up for quality content over quantity, and that was an organized campaign (not to say that there haven't been some fine contributors to Gather who arrived because of that campaign, but my friend's opinion is that it alienated more quality writers than it attracted). Sorry to bring up spilled milk, or whatever.
A Turner's comment is right on.
I do apologize, everyone, for bringing it up.
A Turner, a Bzz Agent is a "viral marketer." They are folks who sign up for free stuff and then recommend said stuff (or not, I guess they have a choice) to their friends and anyone else who will listen. Their recommendations are called "Bzz" or "creating bzz."
Here's an article by terry m. on the subject.
Time for Parke to take a nappy.
[Runs out of thread sobbing]
Your ongoing argument for quality writing is admirable. I too love to find and read it, as well as being as anal retentive as I can be in producing it. But you are missing the point.
First gather has given us the option to not have to wade and sift through what each individual decides is drivel. It is by cautiously choosing your network invites. Once invited their work will appear towards the bottom of the page of "My Gather" under the subtitle "Articles for You" If everyone in your network writes nothing but what you find interesting you could be busy for hours going through it.
The point that I am defending is the base truth of gather. Each individual has the right to produce whatever they find enjoyable. Example let's say gather decides to say no more X type of writing ( x in honor of dear Auntie) and all those people are stifled and eventually leave. Now those who won their objective decide that Y style of writing now annoys them, and let's say that Y style is your style. Now what you feel is quality writing is in the balance.
Freedom is a touchy thing strip on person of it and you can be sure that there will be a long list of freedoms being removed.
Gather is working hard to find a solution for the Serious Writers of Gather they understand the issues they face and are looking to satisfy all. But until that comes I would rather defend the rights of everyone then to become part of a clique which feels empowered by attacking what it does not like.
Park, I am sorry your friend left I really just avoid reading those articles it is one of the freedoms we all have to pick and choose what we will read.
Auntie I'll share my kudos with you if it will make you smile again I'll even write Santa and ask him to give you your Xanax. ;-)
Yes it would be real incentive if bonus points were given for the featured article I agree. Competition is healthy and productive.
Terry a true gentleman coming to defend .. still laughing thank you.
Donna you snuck in there between my answer! Madame please do not take offense as none is meant, but it should be our own responsibility to produce good writing, not gathers.
Yes the point system is unfair to those who seriously have a desire to write and contribute quality and consistency to the community. For those who want to learn to expand their ability and truly write. I personally do not think the community would disagree with the concept, but they may with the enactment of it. Shortly I will be doing a piece on things similar to what we are talking about and I truly hope you will look for it as I enjoy your exchange of thoughts and opinions.
I have a busy life as such I can only fight one battle at a time. My last article from this event was to try and pull the community together to work as a unit to stop those who feel it necessary to degrade others. There are those out there that write with all the standards of grammar and spelling, yet are still attacked because others dislike their content. I find this appalling. Once I find a way to solve this I would be more than ready to work with the same passion on the points system. I am but one person, and from the looks of things will have some work gathering others to work with me.
My goal may be admirable but unless it can be achieved without bias or turning into that which I despise, it is a useless endeavor. I do not wish to become the "Magistrate of Misbehavior" -- I want to be the biased page written that allows those of gather to speak up on how they feel which would allow the gather staff to respond with speed, diligence, and in the way the community wants it to.
The same could be done for points.
His departing "article" was very clear, and the people he was talking about knew it.
They will protest and say, "but we only said nice things to Clay". Sure, but Clay also witnessed the hurt and cruelty the "gang mentality" possessed as they attacked innocent writers and people on Gather.
Clay was deeply sympathetic to those being mercilessly teased and laughed at. He wrote Satire, sure, but he never targeted people everyone knows, Race issues, or Religion. He was too in tune with today's society, and he had been through it as a child. The disgust he felt from watching the snarky and hurtful remarks that were totally uncalled for caused him to pull up stakes and hit the road.
I miss you Clay. When I saw you hanging with the "old Schoolers" and the highly elevated Ms. K, I knew you were headed for a fall. Why didn't I email you? Because you had to find out for yourself, an email might have put you in defense mode and you would have been subjected to even worse than you have already been subjected to. You were not the object of the abuse, just a witness. Since these "old Schoolers" jumped to accept you, and Ms. K. said if people knew you were connected to her, they would give you bad ratings, I think you thought you were in with the "good Samaritans". It didn't take long to find out the "Black Widow" eats her own, did it?
Sorry Amber Fire, I just had to rant. Maybe I should write an article myself, since I was in close touch with Clay until he pulled up stakes and left. All these comments you are getting, well....
Foxylady no apologies please, I assumed that something like this was reason for his departure. I did not get time to read that article because I had to run, now I regret not stopping to do so. He had offered assistance to me in my writing and was very supportive. I cannot prove it but I will maintain that my opinion is he left because of something really bad. His final picture did state something quite like that.
"It's been an experience. I hope the Old School Gatherers (and the Exalted Ms. K, especially) enjoy the world they've made and continue to thrive, and that Gather finally realizes its true potential before it is swallowed in the endless thrum of White Noise that is its current content stream."
I really wish you would dear lady, I really do. If he get the chance to speak to him tell him best of luck from Amber --- Please.
[Bursting into applause] Bravo, my friend! Well said!
If the choice of what it is left to the mass community while posting then will it be categorized properly knowing that the points will be lower. Then there is the loop holes of if I add this or that it is still X type that will draw points but will qualify for Y type with larger value points. Gosh I hope that made sense because at the moment it is the best I can explain it.
It is hard, and to some I am sure, degrading to know that quality work is judged in the same manner as frivolous work. Yet no one has offered a workable solution to the problem, we can moan and gripe about it, but until someone can come up with a way to make it work and be adhered to then we are stuck with it.
I am sure that Gather Staff is well aware of the impact it is having, as well as the outlooks and complaints. But we are asking them to find a solution to what even we seem to have a problem finding, and we want them to do it yesterday. This to me is a bit unfair to those who have invested their time to offer something free to all. It borders on the spoiled child who asks for a pony, gets the pony, and then complains because it isn't black.
Instead of griping about it we should be trying to come up with a workable plan that will allow publishing to flow and satisfy the needs of all those who want to share on gather. If I sound somewhat preachy I am sorry, I really do not mean it that way -- or perhaps I do -- I just feel the griping is solving nothing, it adds to the discontent, but adds no real assets to our community.
Please don't get angry with me Terry and Turner but I am one who likes solutions. I am in no way trying to degrade what anyone said because all these comments are insightful and will lead to recognizing the problems, but eventually the solutions are going to have to be found if gather is to be a place for everyone.
Foxylady, I wish I had had the chance to read that final article. I think you are a very wise fox.
I have asked Gather repeatedly for a mission statement. I'm not holding out much hope for that.
For someone who claims to want to see "peace and respect prevail" on this site, Crazy, insulting innocent people sure seems like an odd place to start.
His writing was definitely loved by many here and his leaving will leave a void for a long time.
Debra until Clay's leaving I guess I lived in somewhat of a bubble as I missed some of this, other stuff I simply stopped reading when I realized where it was going. Maybe if I had read on and voiced my opinion it would have made a small difference to all of the great writers we have lost.
Johnny I never got the chance to read Kr Craft, I think he was either gone before I came or I was not fortunate enough to find him before he left.
Crazy you may agree with me on some points but I would appreciate your not using my writing to slam other people, as this is exactly the thing I am fighting about. I am not sure what your beef is with Dannielle or Mr. Kraft but please write an article about it rather then use this to do it in. I am not asking you not to voice your opinion just to do it in the proper environment which for me personally is not here. Thank you for understanding my position.
On a larger note, this discussion (and several more like it) has gotten me thinking. With everyone and their mother complaining about "trolls", it's got to be mathematically impossible that all are referring to the exact same group of specific individuals. I think it would go a long way towards clearing this muddy issue if everyone would openly state, by name, exactly who he or she views as "trolls" on this wesbite. Much could be learned from such frankness.
(Not to mention the awesome fights that would no doubt emerge.)
And you also think I have kept my feelings about Kathryn's lazy writing, letters to new people, and individual responses to comments a secret? Obviously, your investigative skills are about as good as hers. I have made each of the disappointments public. I hope you are basing too much of your esteem on discovering that private information. I have voiced/written my complaints about a number of topics, and I provided the names and the proof when I did so. A matter of time until the truth is revealed? The truth is already out there.
Jigga what? Am I misreading that sentence, Crazy, or are you insinuating that Sandy Knauer and I are the same person?
I hope you don't feel too much more foolish when you find out that I have spoken with Liz. I know exactly what she doesn't like about me, and she knows what I don't appreciate about her. If you would like to carry hard feelings for either of us, feel free but I think we are both perfectly capable of doing that for ourselves if we choose.
If I were responsible for the site's blatant and unfair one ratings, things would be much different, trust me. Decent articles would have the high ratings and garbage the low. That is obvious to any 'thinking' person.
And no, I have not kept it a "secret" that I think Kathryn is an idiot. Maybe you should actually read what I write sometime instead of getting your information from someone else.
A. Turner (Tinman), please be careful. I really care a lot about you and don't want to see you get hurt. The Exalted Ms K can turn her cronies on you, yell "innocent, I didn't do anything but compliment him", and everyone goes their way, one less challenger for points down the drain.
I apparently have much to investigate, much has been said, delivered and seen that has made me see why many would throw their hands up in disgust and just find a new place to go. However I must be masochistic because I still feel there is hope. I don't give up and die to easily and have always believed there is an answer to any problem provided those within it are willing to want an answer. At the moment I feel many things that I do not wish to discuss now. I need to find the answers to many questions, and try to discover truths that may or may not be found.
I appreciate all those who wish to be part of the solution. My heart goes out to those who feel they have been abused or betrayed. My sympathies to those who feel that destruction is the only way to change. I swore to carry the fight to the end, and this I will do, regardless of the time it takes. It is times like these I am grateful I possess intelligence and the ability to see both sides, these may be the only thing which keeps me sane in this quest.
(Except for Gozer, and even she and I fight sometimes.)
(Debra, I thought a full face shot might just send you into a fit of jealousy from which you'd never recover. You don't have to thank me for sparing you.)
I don't know who you are or why you came here to cause trouble and blame others. You can remove your comments from Gather, but you can't remove the memories of all who have seen you in action, Debra. I don't care what you or Crazy or anyone who would be influenced by you think of me.
Think about this one for a few minutes, Debra. YOU ARE THE REASON YOU ARE SO MISERABLE. And blaming me won't make it any better.