Is our Democracy near it's end ? While I was having lunch with my Dad today, he whipped out the following article, which I found to be very interesting.
Read and Think ....??
How Long Do we Have?
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2.000 years earlier:
" A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benifits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due due to the loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship "
" The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage "
Professsor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush 143 million
Square miles of land won by: Gore 580.000; Bush: 143 million
States won by: Gore: 19; Bush: 29
Murder rate per 100.000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2; Bush: 2.1
Professor Olson adds " In aggreagate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly emcompassed those citixens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare.."
Olson believes that the United States is now somewhere between the " complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democrocy, with some 40% of the nations population already having reached the " governmental dependacy " phase.
If Congress grants amnesty to the 20 million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then goodbye to the USA in fewer that 5 years
Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.
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Comments: 28
You're right about apathy. It is one of the greatest dangers to democracy.
Embers
You can thank my Dad for that article. He handed it to me during a catfish dinner. uum uum good!
Glad you liked the Slash pic, thanks !
Great points both of you, thanks.
I'm afraid that most Americans are living in a bubble while driving around in their Mini Vans and Suv's with a bumper sticker that says " I'm a soccer mom " , or perhaps " I'm a soccer dad " while they are talking on their cell phones , and they have no clue as to what is happening around them.
Adele, like you said, it will be too late when they get interested.
Maybe when the factory where they work closes, or maybe when their position with their company is elimated, they will wake up.
The circumstances derscribed above are happening all over our counrty are happening as we speek. Perhaps the " Wake up call " isn't far away.
Great point, thanks. Say hello to George W. Hitler .
There is nothing more dangerous than an idiot who is power hungry, history repeats it's self sad to say.
BTW, Our great President uses " the google " on the " internets " , nuff said.
and that might be more apparent if he compared income between the two areas.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html
however, i think there are reasons to be nervous about dependency.
we have been a great marketplace in the past.
part of the sales equation is that people will have to disposable income to spend on goods and services. but if necessities like rent and food take up a higher % of income because household wages are stagnant while prices go up, then we will have less disposable income. and if we continue outsourcing (80% of our foreign aid is paid to american companies that build facilities in other countries) and continue letting people into the united states to compete with our workers for scarce jobs, we will have bigger problems than we have now.
rated 10.
jolson@gw.hamline.edu
Phone: 651 523-2142
Professor of Law
A.B., University of Notre Dame
J.D., (Distinction) Duke University School of Law
LL.M., University of Florida Law Center
"A business attorney is continually dealing with the future continually calculating and exercising foresight to counsel a client. The legal aspects of business demand effort, compel earnestness, require knowledge, and grease the wheels of industry."
Professor Olson is a leading authority on tax and business law. His treatise, Federal Taxation of Intellectual Property Transfers, was first published in 1986 and is updated bi-annually. He is a legal counselor's counselor, being called upon by colleagues for information on areas of business law.
He drafted the close corporation amendments to the Minnesota Business Corporation act and writes articles on corporate planning. He is a frequent lecturer and arbitrator in contractual disputes involving securities dealer-client and manufacturer-distributor issues. Professor Olson has served as administrative law judge for the state of Minnesota and has consulted with judges, state legislators, and municipal officials.
Prior to joining the faculty, Professor Olson was with Dorsey & Whitney. While in law school he was elected to the academic honor society Order of the Coif. He was an officer in the Air Force. Currently, Professor Olson is president of Academics for the Second Amendment, and serves on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association. He is past-president of The Corporate Counsel Association and has been on the Board of Minnesota Continuing Legal Education.
Professor Olson teaches Business Associations, Business Planning, Contracts, Corporate Finance, and taxation courses.
DISCLAIMER: There is an e-mail floating around the internet dealing with the 2000 Bush/Gore election, remarks of a Scotish philosopher named Alexander Tyler, etc. Part of it is attributed to me. It is entirely BOGUS as to my authorship. I've been trying to kill it for 3 years. For details see: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp.
http://www.hamline.edu/law/professors/joseph_olson.html
It seems the more we look to the government to solve our problems, blame it, and ridicule it, the more we are beholding to it. We pass off our and local responsibilities until we have none, and then are nothing but serfs. Dangerous......
Thanks for your thoughts.
Donna, you clearly don't know from dictatorship. I lived in Francisco Franco's fascist-dictatorship Spain for several years. That was a dictatorship. You would not have dared say what you said there for fear of landing in Carabanchel Prison and being treated to cattle prods. Among other things. Don't mouth off when you are clearly so ignorant. Bush is *protecting* us from dictatorship with his policies and I think it is a disgrace that young twits are too clueless to understand that.
Troublemakr, you are right that there are many of us who live in big cities who work, pay taxes and own our homes in vertical rather than horizontal neighborhoods--and we voted for Bush and would again if given the chance. Nevertheless, the genral concept that hardworking people who are able to own something are more likely to recognize the menace of the New Deal and War on Poverty heritage of the Dems, which leads straight to dependence.
So are you willing to give up your freedom and rights as a U.S. citizen so Georgy can " protect our freedom "? hugh ?
Actually, conerning the Gore / Bush 2000 election, I thought that both of them were morons. We now have our great president who " uses the Google on the internets " who defeated Gore who " invented the internet ". I'm suprised that anyone actually voted in that election considering the choices at hand.
I'm afraid that nowadays we as voters have to choose which candidate is the lesser of the 2 evils, not which one is the best candidate.
I really doubted the validity of this article. My Dad got this from one of his friends, and I thought that I would throw it out there for discussion.
Even though Olson claims that he didn't make those statements, the article does make some very good points.
Good point about the guns, however it seems that the price of guns is skyrocketing.
Perhaps the best method of taking the guns out of the citizen's hands is to price them out of their reach .
Dems costantly remind the masses that they are left-behind, neglected, without, and unrepresented because of their financial standing.
Black leaders like Jackson and Sharpton vs. Black leaders like Cosby and Juan Williams. Racial epitates and attacks on Black Republican candidates.
Fat cat liberals who profit from the same system they constantly complain as unfair to the little people.
Voting blocs sought in those historically 'dependent' on social services. Illegal immigrants. Opposition to requiring simple picture ID's to vote. Not wanting to irritate them with more stringent control of the flow of people. Convicted felons voting.
PLEASE cite one "freedom" any of you have lost. The ACLU has withdrawn it's suit filed a couple of years ago regarding the Patriot ACT - They are defending your freedoms, right?
NYT quietly apologized for running the financial tracking articles since nothing was "illegal".
Advice: just do not give money to Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Front Against America or any number of identified terrorist organizations operating here and when you talk with your cousin Abdul, don't discuss blowing shit up.
If you are an American CITIZEN, not just passing through, you will have the Miranda Rights, legal council, court hearings and the whole enchillada.
If you are picked up in Afganistan while on vacation to Adul's goat farm, which has a little shed full of explosives you did not 'know' about, you may have an extended stay on your way to Gitmo. It is possible you will face a military tribunal with an appointed lawyer. If you are convicted, you will have at least an appeal to the US District Court in DC, maybe a few more rights as a citizen.
Please describe the RIGHTS you have lost. Just for the sake of arguement, just ONE.
So, we are being ate up by the law of compound interest used against us instead of for us.
We will see the Medicare, Medicaid, SS hit with the influx of 40 million new draweees in the next decade. The birth rate has been decimated by abortion and lifestyle choices, so we have less participating in funding those programs.
Who will take steps to address the the simple math? Who wants to see the gov't filter more to DC to be distributed (thus lost)?
You confuse the ever living hell out of me. It's sort of like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth sometimes.
I am going to do some more research on the Patriot Act, you do present a good argument on that one. I still believe that the Government can use that one as well as detain us indefinatly if they choose to deem any one of us as " Anti Government " , or if they choose to suspect that we are a suspected " terrorist ".
I do also believe that the Government can use the 4473 forms to take our guns from us if they choose to do so. Gun rights was one of the very first topics of discussion after the 9-11-01 terrorist attacks. The terrorists used box cutters, so just how the heck did Gun rights figure into the issue ? Actually, the Government should ban box cutters.
"II. A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Notice the word "State" not Union or Republic. The intent of this amendment was to keep the threat of insurection fixed in the mind of the federal goverment. That they are the servants of the people and the people have the ultimate power.
I have one point to add: many people did not like either Gore or Bush (or Kerry or Bush). But I urge people not to give up voting, but instead write in the candidate of choice. I know many people write in Mickey Mouse or something like that, but there are great men and woman who are true leaders in our community. Surely people can find one person they would like to see the commander-in-chief of our armed forces.
I like your point about box cutters. I remember a remotely similar issue growing up in Connecticut involving "head shops". I remember a bunch of conservatives trying to outlaw head shops by claiming there was no legal purpose for the wares they were selling. I recall thinking deeply about this issue, although I was just a teen. I had been into said head shops and could even buy to some extent that the products they sold were primarily intended to use "remedies" that were under prohibition. But I began thinking of the implications of implementing such a law. How do you distinguish between a tobacco pipe, a weed pipe, a crack pipe (crack didn't exist back then, we had to walk uphill barefoot in snow and broken glass both ways to get our rock back then)? Do we outlaw mirrors and straws? The whole issue was my first brush with this type of legislation. To the best of my memory (which may be impaired), the law passed and head shops as we knew them had to close down. Most resurfaced a year or so later selling incense and rock tshirts and still had a back section for over 18 year olds to purchase "tobacco products". Now to board an airplane I must publicly display every creme lotion or liquid in my luggage. Hey buddy, what's that creme for? A pimple on my ass, any more questions?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for protecting people with common sense measures. But I find it difficult to believe that my Old Spice Speed Stick or tiny nail clippers are a threat to national security. Man, somehow I stretched a little far from the original subject of your article Timothy-slash-Slash. I hope you don't mind the ramblings a another confused American citizen!
Be careful what you write. The NSA will probably be knocking on your door tomorrow looking for your nail clippers! lol !! Great post with a lot of good points to ponder !
BTW, sorry to let you down, but I'm not Slash.
The last news that I heard was the CIA had Slash cornered, and he was beating the hell out of them with his Gibson double neck guitar, then Axyl Rose threw his mic stand at the CIA Agents knocking them on their asses ( well deserved) ! lol !!!
The article is, apparently, a fiction:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp
However, many of it's "contentions" are interesting, to say the least, and not without historical relevence. Democracies HAVE, in most instances, failed for some or all of the reasons noted in the article.
The following is disturbingly close to the truth in America:
"A democracy is always (so far, anyway) temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can VOTE themselves generous GIFTS from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benifits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due due to the loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
As is this. While overstated, it is not without merit:
"In aggreagate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly emcompassed those citixens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare."
Here's where the merit lies:
The majority (though not ALL) welfare recipients, most recent immigrants (legal and illegal - some of whom DO illegally vote) and most who live in government housing:
- consume VAST amounts of tax dollars from the various welfare programs available to them, while paying little, if any taxes
- create essentially no jobs and, in significant numbers, do not hold jobs,
- invest essentially no money in the economy
- are, for the most part, among the most apathetic (or, "otherwise occupied", if you prefer), least educated, least politically aware Americans. Please note that I did NOT say "stupid". Please also note that I AM aware that the majority of welfare recipients in America are WHITE.
It IS fair to say, in my less-than-consequential opinion, that, while most of these people may be GOOD people, they are among those least likely to take the time to really understand what they are voting for...or against, and why. The reasons are many and diverse but, generally, "feelings", rather than education, is the key to how/why they vote. It is also entirely accurate to say that HUGE numbers of college students vote based on peer pressure, grossly insufficient education and feel-good issues like; "Bush is Hitler", "take from the rich-give to the poor", "peace-not-war", saving whales, and legalizing marijuana (no value judgment here, just accurate observation). Yet these groups DO CONTRIBUTE HEAVILY TO, and often DETERMINE the outcome of virtually every national election, and the majority of state elections.
That begs the question: Are THEY best suited to determine the future of America?
Well? Are they?
I'm giving you a qualified 8, because you seem interested in stimulatiing discussion, and that's a GOOD thing. Seems to me, though, you should WANT to KNOW MORE. FACTS and RESEARCH are what matters. Not "feelings" (way too many of us allow our feelings to get in the way of sound decision-making, and there ARE times when that can be very dangerous). Certainly not someone's less-than-grammatically-correct speach patterns. Great speech writers earn big bucks. Great speakers are NOT necessarily great, or even good, leaders. Hitler was a GREAT speaker...
While I agree entirely (most folks do) that we need more choices when we go to the polls, neither Bush, nor Gore, is a moron. They do have widely diverse opinions and agendas, and both have said some pretty dumb things (Gore being far in the lead in that horse race), but they both have pretty darn good educations and a LOT of real world experience - the kind most if US do not have.
Regards,
Steve
An afterthought: The Patriot Act has NOTHING to do with detaining us for "anti-government" views. If that were the case, we'd need a thousand more jails immediately. We ARE free to voice our opinions here - millions upon millions do, every day - and most of the world envies/hates us hugely for that freedom. It was designed (some say poorly, I'll grant you) to establish guidelines for protecting the country from terrorist attack, and approaching the extremely complex issues that arise when dealing with an enemy "army" that can't be pinned down to one country (in other words, an enemy that doesn't fall into conventional/historical perceptions, and thus, requires new ways of thinking, new police methods, and new laws concerning how to deal with them, outside AND inside this country).
It is, I think, valid to ask, "what liberties have we actually lost?", as a result of the implementation of the Patriot Act. It's also worthwhile, I think, to consider the difference between suspending certain "rights" in time of war/crisis and eliminating them. There IS a difference... Speculation about what "might" happen "someday" is just that: speculation, and some of it is pretty rash. Such speculation needs to be BALANCED against what "might" happen if we DON'T use every tool at our disposal to protect ourselves. We need to hold our elected officials accountable for the consequences, in either case, and we should EXPECT and DEMAND that, when the threat HAS passed, things be returned to "normal". That HAS been successfully accomplished here in the past.
I'll be interested to see a follow-up article, if you DO decide to research it. If you do, let me encourage you to look a BOTH sides, when considering the vast body of analyses "out there"... Objectivity matters.
"Well they will get my guns when they pry my dead fingers from the grips"
That can be arranged, and the proper techniques for doing so are being tested and perfected as we speak.
I feel somewhat like a cop at the scene of a bank-robbery already completed, with people shouting about how that shattered door ought to be guarded, or someone might go in and steal the money.
If the President (yes THAT President) decides there is any reason to claim a state of national emergency, he has but to sign a piece of paper, and somehow get AG Gonzales (yes THAT AG Gonzales) to sign it too, and he instantly becomes Commander and Chief of every single government employee, and has the "right" to commandeer any and all possessions of any and all citizens, without so much as a thank you Mam.
It is not a question of how long we have left, or grabbing our guns. We have one way, and one way only of backing away from this cliff. That way is called "Congress", and if we don't stop demonizing those elected officials, and start paying very careful attention to who precisely is in favor of dangling us over that cliff, we will no longer have the need, or means, to debate our petty little issues about public policy. All such matters will be decided for us, at gun point if necessary.
Our "pop guns" will simply not be effective against people with night vision goggles and high tech body armour, after they shut off the neighborhood power, and set up snipers at every conceivable vantage point around our house. We will hold up our hands and pray they don't place such a weapon near our dead body to cover up some "tactical slip up" which resulted in some teenage Rambo blowing our head off. Promotions could be jeopardized after all.