Mexico Gathers Support From 27 Nations for Declaration Opposing U.S. Border Fence Plan

What part of sovereign nation don't they understand?

I find it amazing, Mexico refuses to do anything about keeping people from illegally crossing our border and when we take a more aggressive apporach they have a problem with it.
Mexico should be reimbursing every border state and to a lesser degree every state for the burden these illegals have put on our social services.
If Mexico can't control its population, iif it can't extablish a vibrant economy given they have an abundance of resources, if it can't find a way to behave as a good neighbor, then disolve yourslef as a country give us the deed and we will add another ten or so stars to our flag and run it the way it should be run.

The story doesn't list the 27 nations. I'd bet my last dollar it's countries that don't have our best interests at heart.

What Mexico is afraid of is all those poor souls who finally have to stop trying to get here- may turn their frustration and anger on their government...and they don't want to deal with it...it would take more money out of their pocket that should be going to the Mexican Society in the first place...

....and as far as the other nations are concerned - the ones that get over the line here - we will send over to their country as illegal immigrants and they can take care of them........................see how long it takes for them to put up some kind of fence...!!!!

The 27 nations that supported Mexico in Wednesday's declaration were Antigua, Argentina, Barbados, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Chile, Ecuador, El Salvador, Granada, Guatemala, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, San Kitts and Nevis, San Lucia, San Vicente, Suriname, Uruguay and Venezuela.

"The 28 nations express "deep concern regarding the decision adopted by the United States of America to build and extend a wall on its border with Mexico, considering it to be a unilateral measure that goes against the spirit of understanding," "

I would say that Mexico's lack of concern for stopping the flow of their citizens out of their country into ours goes against the spirit of understanding.

well, troy, they understand just fine when they are getting those remittances.

..The only one that matters is AMERICA and the American people,....but here's a thought...why not let all the aliens go to the 27 other nations !..: o)....funny how they are not named.

I agree with Don Hall. Fences are not the answer. What we need to do is sow the length of our border with anti-personnel land mines. That would be the most cost-effective alternative. Once those people see a couple hundred of their amigos getting their legs blown off, they'll get the hint, don't you think? They are law breakers, you know. They deserve whatever they get. Of course, people like Don Hall would say, "Why don't we just nuke 'em 'til they glow", but that seems a little bit extreme to me.

Mexico's economy is in the best shape ever due to the money sent home by the illegals here - something like 25% of their GNP. I can understand the concern they have about the fence but I think they are stupid to fight it.

Did Hugo Chavez have a part in this ?

I would presume that every one of the 27 nations who signed this protest has accepted US aid dollars and also the forgiven loans that have been made by the US over the years.

I agree - we need more border control

Other Latin American and Caribbean countries where U.S. companies are contributing to communities are Brazil, Bolivia, Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Peru Paraguay, and Trinidad and Tobago.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=October&x=20061024145202AKllennoCcM1.731509e-02

but worse:

Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies, 2002: according to one source cited by Sarder & Davies, 80% of that aid itself actually goes to American companies in those foreign countries.

so apparently we are giving most of the foreign aid to companies who are outsourcing?

i don't wanna talk about it. makes me mad.

forgot the rest of that citation:
Ziauddin Sardar and Merryl Wyn Davies
Why Do People Hate America?, Icon Books 2003

They do have the right to control their borders. However, gross mismanagement of tax payers money and fodder for an upcoming election is hardly a reason to do it.

700 miles is a start. Let's go all the way.

We can have controlled migration to this country - we're not idiots. This is about cutting off the drug trade and limiting access to terrorists. I have never seen border control's first priority as controlling illegal immigration.

Illegal immigrants will always find a way in - always. There is no way we can disrupt the flow for long. We can disrupt the current method but that will just lead to another method...

This is what happens when you are a world leader and wealthy. People from all over the world dream of coming here and making a life.

I think the situation works for the most part. Look at it this way - we give millions away in private charity (not fed. govt. trouble) out of our pockets....Mexicans come here and EARN money to send home. They benefit us and them.

The only real problem is that we don't know who is here. We need to recognize and redistribute funding or require immigrants to pay a portion to assist with extra expenses such as a small "immigrant tax" of $5. With 10 million working that's a maximum of $50 million for a required health insurance policy for immigrant workers.

Schools are largely funded through state's tax on food and other goods, as well as lotteries. The feds use a hunk of IRS dollars to help out. Most illegal immigrants buy food, vehicles, clothing, etc in the state they live in and many pay state and federal taxes.

SO, if we take the "illegal" out of the equation, make a few changes - register everyone - deport the felons after the fence is done and POLICE our borders as we should....we have workers who will demand better wages, thereby diminishing the argument that they drive down wages....They continue to purchase, can move back and forth adding to the economic drive in their home countries, and everyone wins.

New migration will become necessary in 50 years. When we see the signs the next time - we don't ignore them - we FACE them....and we continue to identify any person who sets foot on this soil....PERIOD.

Paul-- wow. Wanting to do something about illegal immigration is one thing, but to say what you said... I don't even know where to start with that. A murderer or rapist getting their legs blown off, maybe. I don't approve of it, but I could see more where you're coming from. But these people are not necessarily coming here to kill or rape people. Their one crime is coming into this country illegally, and they deserve to die for it??

It saddens me to know that people think like this.

Paul- your suggestions seem very UN-American.

None of y
"The sleeping giant will awaken and destroy them." This is not about "destroying" people, its about people who try to find a better life in America..

I really don't think blowing peoples legs off is a good idea. Amnesty in any form is just stupid. Just enforce the laws as they are now and the whole thing fixes itself. We dont need any more legislation beyond financing the enforcement period.

We should start small. Just prosecute the document fraud cases to start with. That should include expired visas and work authorizations.

Empower the border patrol to actually protect the border. Actually I would like to see paint ball mines with with permanant dayglow orange paint. No need to profile then.

And for the record. The Berlin wall was built to keep people in not out.

Stupid..... the Berlin was was to divide a country in half, and this fence is to divide nations.....

For those who took my comments seriously, please read "A Modest Proposal", by Jonathan Swift.

Stanley, don't smoke that crap before you comment. It makes you type "stupid" things.

The East Germans started building the wall in 1961 to stop the outflow of money and labor caused by the daily defections of the skilled and educated. These defections were on the order of 2.5 million between 1949 and 1962 after that they dropped to less than 5000 for the remainder of its life.

You see if you had paid attention in highschool you would have known that.

There 10 to 12 million of them here, they are working, our economy has been the best in my lifetime ( I was born in 1933) and you want to send them home and do what???

You can toss out all the numbers you want to but the hard truth is the birthrate of our prosperous natives is insufficient to maintain our population ( see the article in lst months Smithsonian magazine) We are prospering because we have people who will do the dirty, strenous jobs our young people have been taught to disdain.

I could cite any number of instances where Mexicans were hired only after the existing labor supply turned the work down. Look at New Orleans where the refugees are in Houston and other cities on welfare and skyrocketing the crime rates while the immigrants are cleaning up and rebuilding their city.

Mass deportation would allow us to get to the gangs, criminals and terrorists easier. THEN we can bring them back and give a pathway only the law abiding as we need them and can afford them. If we did it as they need us, the world would be here.
Diseases like typhoid, TB, legionairs, leprosy are all on the rise amazingly in the areas where the immigrants congregate.We worked hard at keeping out these diseases, a grapefruit wasn't even allow in 20 yrs ago. Now they are back!
Some say they are an asset unfortunately we have to share this place and 90% of the middle class is hurting. This isn't all about YOU.
Our auto makers opened plants in Mexico because labor is cheap, no unions and they could pollute without consequences...no EPA. Follow the money and it starts to all make sense.
If we tried to take over Mexico we don't have to worry about Vincente Fox and his army there is a group more dangerous, better armed, more loyal, larger and more vicious.. the drug lords. Don't be feeling too safe they're here now, watch the news.

Tom: No matter how hard you try, no one will buy that Mexicans are the root of all evil....disease, poverty, crime....so what else is new in America? Geez, you would think we woke up one morning to 12 million illegal immigrants! They have been here for YEARS...long enough to have 10 years with the same employer, purchase a home, raise children AND prepare to return to Mexico or decide to stay in the U.S. with the help of their kids.

You presume they are all guilty because they are illegal...Excuse me but placed in a similar position who knows what you would do.

Sigh....we are bigots. We are hypocrits. We are "holier than thou." Think about it...they wouldn't be here if they weren't useful. They benefited us and now housing is slowing and people fear for interest rates, the Republicans are losing their hold on our government and SUDDENLY everyone is pissed about illegal immigration...

PUHLEASE: Go scream about the war - about our babies who are dying in our name. Ask the feds why they don't recruit these "citizen wannabees" everyone is pissed off about....Ask the feds how many illegals have died in Iraq and how many 1st generation citizens are there fighting now?

This really, really makes me sick. Yes, there are some gang members. Yes, there are some drug dealers, yes there are some felons....so, get rid of them - build the damn fence and stop lying to yourselves.

This nation does NOTHING unless it benefits fiscally to do so. They do NOTHING to help any minority until PUSHED to do so.....just look at the history of immigration in our country. You would think this has never happened before....

If nothing, we should be a little wiser at this point.....Our shallow thoughts are what causes the corruption we see now. WE don't pay attention.

LOL....I can't believe people complain about the corruption in Mexico....H E L L O!!!!

How idiotic is that when the masters of corruption run this country?

"You presume they are all guilty because they are illegal."

Jackie?

They are illegal so that pretty much defines them as guilty. Anyway I didn't see where anyone blamed all the ills of society on illegal aliens. The truth is they are a controllable source. It is one area where we have the laws and the possible political will to make some headway. Be that will election year motivated or not.

Mass deportations would be a tremendous waste of resources. Those resources could be used for law enforcement. Document fraud is a felony. Identity theft is a felony. You dont even need a new database to find these people. The database is in the social security system right now.

I don't even believe they all should have to go. If thier only crime in border crossing then I believe some margin of restraint is in order and should be decided on a case by case system. Give them the opportunity to get a work permit after clearing INS and background/medical checks. But if they used another persons SS# or any other fraudulent documents they should be deported.

"We are prospering because we have people who will do the dirty, strenous jobs our young people have been taught to disdain."

Nothing could be closer to the truth but these people cheated. There are millions of people across Eastern Europe, Central Europe, Africa and the Far East that would give anything to come here and do whatever work was offered. The ocean keeps them from cheating. What makes Mexican, Central and South Americans better than them? Why should these people get preferential treatment?

Ar'Ullamh: Well, there goes 11 mil, 999 thousand.....not gonna work.

Not only have they used purchased identifications, they have used fake ss#'s and then an ITIN to pay their taxes - with full knowledge and cooperation of the IRS.

This issue is so deeply buried into every aspect of federal government - it would blow your mind if you looked deep enough. There's enough there to impeach the president and fire half the federal government - just for knowing and doing nothing.

The "enforce our laws" route won't happen simply because, to do so, would incriminate too many politicians and federal personnel who were prevented from raising the alarm years ago.

There will be new and "better" ineffective laws this time around.

Jackie,

So you think these people should be immune to laws that would put you and I in prison for 5 years, fined thousands of dollars or both?

Anyway back to the article. I guess the "spirit of understanding " was that they can do whatever the hell they want but the U.S. is under some un-written constraints. We get to pump financial aid into them. We get to defend them under the OAS mutual defense treaty but they dont have any responsibility to us at all.

Ar'Ullamh: There are several points to make on this issue but I'll highlight what I think, IMHO, is the most relevant.

*Read international news...we are the bullies and Chavez/Venezuela is partially successful at raising the alarm about our "long arm" and "strong arm" tactics, particularly in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Panama and many of the countries listed.....

*The "aid" is to "aid" our investments - not their government or its people

*We buy allegiance...uhhum...or we thought we did...

And to respond to the other remark about immunity for the feds....they won't ever let it get that far. You see, they are masters at redirecting us. We are too busy fighting each other to turn and demand accountability from them...so....they win, friend...end of story.

To defeat them, we'd have to overcome emotional obstacles as well as core beliefs...and they're convinced we can't get it together....Guess what -- they're right.

"And to respond to the other remark about immunity for the feds."

Jeez no, I wasnt talking about the feds. I was talking about the 11mil 999 thousand felons you mentioned. Do you think they should get a free pass?

Oh, forgive me, I thought you actually insinuated that the feds be held accountable......LOL....silly me.

Tell you what, for every crime committed by an illegal immigrant that sets them up to work in the United States - you demand the same accountability/prison time/deportation/fines from our very own legislative bodies of the federal government. Start with Soc.Sec. and move on over to OSHA, USDA, IRS, Federal Reserve, etc.

I mean, fair is fair - right? They contributed as much to this problem as the illegals themselves did.....so if you can so easily persecute them - start at your own back door.

Well then we let every person in federal prison convicted of identity theft and document fraud just walk. There are a lot of criminals that would be glad to hear that. You see theres that whole "equal protection" thing.

Illegal aliens know they are violating the law when they step across. They know you can't legally buy a social security card. They know they are banned from being employed here without authorization. They know it is a crime to commit identity theft. They know it and disregard those facts. Thats why its called reckless disregard.

Should the goverment be held accountable for allowing this to be? No doubt. I hope thats what is happening now. I hope that the people will pay attention this time and unseat those law makers that violated their oaths to the public trust.

You know you throw words like persecute, xenophobe and racist around a lot. How can you persecute people who are not who they say they are and should not be here? How is it persecution to demand that the laws be enforced equally? You want equality? Then yes lets. Every person whether they be a citizen, a legal resident or an illegal alien should go to prison if they commit document fraud or identity theft. Those that are found to be illegal aliens would then be deported according to federal immigration law.

[Illegal aliens know they are violating the law when they step across. ]

And the feds knew and condoned the actions.

[They know you can't legally buy a social security card. ]

And the feds knew they were working on false documentation - thus the creation of the suspense fund.

[They know they are banned from being employed here without authorization.]

And the feds told Border Patrol to not arrest them until they had been caught 13 times - that's 12 chances to get here.

[They know it is a crime to commit identity theft.]

And so the IRS created the ITIN card/number so they could pay taxes in their own name, rather than the stolen ID they use to work on.

[They know it and disregard those facts. Thats why its called reckless disregard.]

And the United States Government is EVERY BIT as GUILTY AS THEY ARE.


[You know you throw words like persecute, xenophobe and racist around a lot. How can you persecute people who are not who they say they are and should not be here? How is it persecution to demand that the laws be enforced equally? You want equality? Then yes lets. Every person whether they be a citizen, a legal resident or an illegal alien should go to prison if they commit document fraud or identity theft. Those that are found to be illegal aliens would then be deported according to federal immigration law. ]

FIRST OFF: They are human beings that WE enabled to come here illegally, steal identities and work. If I throw those terms around, it is because it is important to reveal the origins of what has everyone in such an uproar, because it IS NOT illegal immigration - there have been illegals here FOR YEARS. This is something different, something that YOU contribute to in all of your blind genius. Congratulations on being the patsy of a movement designed to maim the very foundation of this country.

LOL...you think you can round them all off and not destroy the economy and cause a civil war - have at it...BUT, do the same to the politicians who have run this country FOR MORE THAN A DECADE.

AFTER ALL, FAIR IS FAIR.

I'd like to take a moment to introduce you all to the future of the United States:

I present Stopmex shootumall.

This is what we will come to if Brenda and many others have their way.....

Get the point?

Jackie,

WE didn't enable them to come here, our Government as well as the people who hire them enabled them to come here. All of them, including our joke of a President ( it really hurt me to capatialize the P and G ) SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!

We are now seeing capitalist America at it's very worst, and it sickens me.

We now have the " Fence Bill "as well as the " Port Security Bill " ,and isn't it convenient that both of these bills were passed so close to election time ?

Tell ya'll what, if that fence is actually built, I'll have a party, and all of ya'll are invited. It's all on me. It will be a Kegger of Biblical Porportions !

If everybody's angst was directed at our own government for not upholding our own laws, this would be a non-issue. If you take away the jobs by criminalizing and jailing the business owners that hire illegals, we wouldn't even have to deport them. They'd leave on their own. It really is that simple. So you can bitch about Mexico, you can bitch about illegals, you can just bitch-bitch-bitch, until we do that very thing we're just throwing good money out for bad.

Peace

Then maybe an uprising is due. Maybe the 280 million anglo-american, african-americans, asian-americans and latin-americans should rise to it. You have decided without our partcipation that its our agenda. You have decided we are the apathetic enablers of the insurgency. Fine if thats what you want maybe we should give it to you. You want or need what you call xenophobia and persecution to validify your simple existance then fine I for one will give it you. Though a diverse America is what I promote, you babble on about the undeserved rights of foriegn insurgents.

You and your ilk are the declination of the U.S.. The sociopathic idealism of marxist euphoric society that undermines the work of hundreds of millions of U.S. citizens and legal residents that had hopes that their children would reap the benefits of their struggles only to be set back decades for the benefit of a few million criminal invaders.

What are you really afraid of Jackie? Are you afraid that your advocate services will no longer be needed when we finally have real control of our southern border? Are you afraid that Mexico may be called to task for the rampant corruption and human rights violations within their own borders?

Enforce the law and the systems of anarchy fade to irrelevance. We don't need new laws. We need enforcement. We need due process and equal protection. Those are the foundations of democracy and western civilization not the perpetual welfare society you envision. You advocate the creation of a permanent worker caste where common people never rise above their fathers.

Here here! I agree, but your wrong about the fence. It's like I said previously, if you take away the ability to gain sustenance in this country by illegal immigrants, they leave on their own. Screw a 6Billion fence that only covers 1/3 of the border. With that money we can have more bodies enforcing the border. And the confluence of people will be in contrast to today negligible if they can't get a job or benefits here. We are the most documented country in the world. All we have to do is start jailing the bastards enabling illegals to be here in the first place. If we have to start paying a bit more, so be it. We're going to pay one way or the other regardless.

Peace

[Jackie,

WE didn't enable them to come here, our Government as well as the people who hire them enabled them to come here. All of them, including our joke of a President ( it really hurt me to capatialize the P and G ) SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! (sic)]

Sigh...Timothy....Who put the politicans in a position to decide? Who ommitted the truth of the influx. At what point did you seriously take a look at the number of foreigners around you? Really - what year was it?

Why scream about how culpable and illegal they are and refuse to hold our politicians accountable? I mean, if like you all say - someone breaks into your house and steals your food....THEY were not ALONE in this theft - THEY HAD A KEY, TIMOTHY. To prosecute them for using it? Come on....

******

[You have decided without our partcipation that its our agenda. You have decided we are the apathetic enablers of the insurgency. ]

You are as accountable as any illegal who made their way here. Why? Because you and I and everyone else who votes elected corrupt politicians and now we face the consequences. Don't worry, it scares the hell out of me that the feds knew and blatantly defied federal laws - even created laws to enable illegal immigration. HOWEVER, their silence now sickens me even more. Not only will they not accept responsibility, they rely on citizen ignorance and our tendency to attack the weak. They are untouchable and what's more we enable more corruption by not stepping out to demand accountability.

[Fine if thats what you want maybe we should give it to you. You want or need what you call xenophobia and persecution to validify your simple existance then fine I for one will give it you. Though a diverse America is what I promote, you babble on about the undeserved rights of foriegn insurgents.]

How can they be undeserved? Because you didn't know? Because federal laws exist to negate their presence? Because the suspense fund exists, the ITIN card, NCLB, Border Patrol orders to refrain and various other 'oversights?' Come on...do you not see the hypocrisy in our own laws? How can you possibly judge them without judging those who enabled them?

Foreign insurgents are those who come over without our knowledge - and calling this population by that term is simply false. We not only knew it - we allowed it.

What do YOU call it when people rant about the "browning" of our nation? What do you call it when they spout racial obscenities akin to the days of "nigger?" Sorry, but I call that zenophobia. I call that racism. I call that extremism and this issue does nothing if not further THAT particular agenda.

Look at the sources spouted by Tanton organizations - 13 MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS dedicated to separatism, dedicated to hate - thinly veiled by the "oh we're so worried about the ecology and middle class..." Surely, you can research - they are FEW and POWERFUL - they have millions to blow on insuring that people like you HATE and jump on their bandwagon - no matter how you claim you are not racist - YOU ENABLE THIS.

[You and your ilk are the declination of the U.S.. The sociopathic idealism of marxist euphoric society that undermines the work of hundreds of millions of U.S. citizens and legal residents that had hopes that their children would reap the benefits of their struggles only to be set back decades for the benefit of a few million criminal invaders.]

Excuse me....they are still very much a minority. They work in key positions - particularly agriculture and processing. THEY are primarily responsible for your food consumption - not business, not nursing, not politics, not education....and this has WHAT effect on the U.S? It keeps down the price of food, lodging, construction and other service oriented industries. How on EARTH does that destroy your dreams for your children? You need to elaborate and prove that this minority somehow eliminates life as you know it -- becuase, I will tell you - they are not nearly as powerful as you would like to think. The worst that will happen is that you'll pay double for a house, double for a meal and double at the grocery store and we'll fund/bribe MX to keep their people at home. We'll send them money by the BILLIONS so we can remain white....or will we?

Will we fill these positions with the same level of productivity and do enough of us currently exist to do so? The answer is unequivocally: NO. We do not have sufficient manpower without them which is why they were invited in the first place.


[What are you really afraid of Jackie? Are you afraid that your advocate services will no longer be needed when we finally have real control of our southern border? Are you afraid that Mexico may be called to task for the rampant corruption and human rights violations within their own borders?]

I cannot fathom that you would even attempt to call MX corrupt with the current administration we have running this country.....ROFL....and we are somehow BETTER? We have the RIGHT to pass judgement on another country? Ya Think?

Sigh....You know what - I pray someday my position is no longer necessary. I ask God every day to make it so - to end the ignorance, to stop the bigotry, to end the racial profiling and suffering of minorities in my country. I would love that - I really would....

[Enforce the law and the systems of anarchy fade to irrelevance. We don't need new laws. We need enforcement. We need due process and equal protection. Those are the foundations of democracy and western civilization not the perpetual welfare society you envision. You advocate the creation of a permanent worker caste where common people never rise above their fathers. ]

They won't enforce the law...please understand that....to enforce the existing laws, they must acknowledge that they are enforceable thereby incriminating themselves. It won't happen - we don't have the money or power to force the issue.

Sigh....I advocate for equality - not as citizens of any country - but as the human race. I advocate for truth. I advocate for accountability.

Our nation functions because of its core belief: If you can get here and prove your worth...when your numbers are too many to deny.......when you have worked and lived in the shadows under threat of removal, many times indentured....when you speak in one voice....we will grudgingly acknowledge your existence and contributions.

Look at slavery - look at civil rights - look at OUR history with regard to immigrant influxes. This is not the end of the world - this is a cycle - this same cycle uses the blood, sweat and tears of "wannabe citizens" to fuel its economy. It has ALWAYS been this way. It doesn't matter if they are illegal, overstay visas, arrive on the TPS, or by other methods.

This is who we are.










Fine if thats what you want maybe we should give it to you. You want or need what you call xenophobia and persecution to validify your simple existance then fine I for one will give it you. Though a diverse America is what I promote, you babble on about the undeserved rights of foriegn insurgents.

Jackie,

My daughter in Georgia called me this morning to tell me I have been rude. She can't seem to call me for my birthday or just to say hello.. but thats another matter (hint). After re-reading my comment a few times over I have to agree. For the rudeness of my tone I apologize.

I do however remain fast in my convictions. Personalizing the issue is poor debate. I have worked against this apathetic policy for most of my adult life and I will fight the good fight as long as my facilities last. We must not reward criminal acts. Period.

As much as I would love to spend the day tearing down your argument piece by piece today I have higher matters of spirit to attend. A point for point rebuttal is forthcoming. Have a nice day.

Jackie,

You can't hold the American voters responsible for what the elected officials do. We can research the candidates all the we want and vote for them based on what they stand for, but when they get elected to an office, they do exactly the opposite.

WE DID NOT ALLOW THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO COME HERE, PERIOD .

Jackie,

"someone breaks into your house and steals your food...THEY were not ALONE in this THEFT-THEY HAD A KEY, TIMOTHY. To prosecute them for using it ? "

Oh Jackie how ignorant of the law you are. If someone uses a key that you gave them to enter your house, that's not a break in my dear. So your argument in this case has nothing to do with what I posted.

Timothy: Stop splitting hairs - you get the point.

Jackie,

Ugh, no I don't get the point. Your argument meant no sense and it had absolutley nothing to do with what I posted.

So Jackie, why don't you want LEGAL immigration? Are you a politician or in big business?

I wouldn't compare it to...."THEY were not ALONE in this theft - THEY HAD A KEY, TIMOTHY. To prosecute them for using it? Come on...."

It's probably more like the door was left unlocked (maybe even ajar).

See! Eamon "gets it." (sheesh)

No Tom, I'm neither. And to have legal immigration, Tom, you must have a working immigration system in place, which we don't (just in case you haven't noticed).

Ar'Allumh: Greetings and yes, I understand birthdays and I also understand the rudeness of debate (just ask Timothy). Nevertheless, I have learned a great deal on Gather.com from all sides of this issue. Some of those lessons weren't really necessary - such as truly blatant, unapologetic racism....and others were meaningful dialogues with the "other sides" of this issue. And yes, there are many sides here.

Believe it or not - I understand your need to honor the law. Please understand that my need is for people to understand that EVERYONE failed at honoring the law - not just the illegal immigrants.

The other really important point is our sordid history with regard to both immigration and minorities. These things must not be discounted when an individual is forming an opinion on this situation. It does have a great deal to do with what we are currently witnessing.

Answers? Sorry, I'm all out. I realize this is a cycle - an integral part of what defines us.....but like everyone else - I feel the need to be safe in my country, I feel the need to hold the feds accountable for their part in this (even when I know it will never happen), and I feel the need to see this group receive a fair deal rather than the proverbial "shaft."

I think, to a large degree, we must look into the soul of this nation and admit what we are. We are a nation of immigrants - fueled by the sweat, blood and tears of any willing to come here by any means available and work, give birth and die on this soil - leaving citizenship as a legacy to their children.

That takes guts, you know? Think about how you would feel if the only hope you realized was in another country? Many of these folks are illiterate - can you imagine what it must be like?

Maybe you can and perhaps you can't and in the end, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that they are here, they work, they contribute and they live and die doing the best they can...

Jackie,

" Please understand that my need is for people to understand that EVERYONE failed at honering the law-not just the illegal immigrants "

Again a misguided statement. EVERYONE didn't fail at honering the law.

To everyone....

First a post....

"You symps for the reconquista don't have a clue about the can of worms you have opened ,
The mexes that raised the mexican rag flag over the post office in maywood , the marches with mexican flags , demanding bennys for illegals , its gonna come back to bite you,
What part of "we are sick to death of hispanics" don't you get ? you are unwelcome in this country , your not wanted , nor are you needed and we will kick you to the curb ,
run , jose run , Remember the 3 mexican radio towers in Texas that came crashing down due to American patriots , Remember when the hate crimes multiply by 10 fold that you have been warned , Americans will not be backed into a corner by 3d world barbarian savages , Most of us understand the lesson of Rome and will not let it happen here ,
Yes , it is about illegal mexicans sneaking in here , It is about them gutting our resources , wreaking our childrens future and trying to make this into mexico ,
We say now , get out , go back jose , go back , we won't ask a second time"

Then, an "introduction" from Jackie...

"I'd like to take a moment to introduce you all to the future of the United States:

I present Stopmex shootumall."

And then...

"This is what we will come to if Brenda and many others have their way....."

O.K.......Which one of you pro-illegal people are portraying themselves as "Stopmex shootumall."?! Nice try, but I don't think many people here are afraid. :-}

You cannot reconcile unlawfulness with more of the same. Lawlessness is the mother of anarchy.

I have seen the analogy of the "door was left open" used but that logic is also flawed. You have a reasonable right to expect that your home will not be entered without you express consent. All property laws are based on the premise that the right of entry belongs to the property owner, lessee or agent thereof. You do not have to break into a property to be guilty of unlawful entry. Even civil authorities need a warrant to enter your home.

And one more time. We are not a nation of immigrants. 280 million of us were born here. 212 miilion are 4th generation or higher. There are no indigenous peoples in the western hemisphere.

Ar'Ullamh D.,
you said:
"The East Germans started building the wall in 1961 to stop the outflow of money and labor caused by the daily defections of the skilled and educated. These defections were on the order of 2.5 million between 1949 and 1962 after that they dropped to less than 5000 for the remainder of its life. "

and i said:"the Berlin wall was was to divide a country in half..."

and guess what? it did!! I never said anything about why it was there. My comment was to show that the Berlin Wall and the border fence are two different things. No one can compare a border that divides two countries to a wall that divided a nation.

and p.s to that "stupid" remark. I was not calling what you said stupid. I was calling those people who could ever compare the Berlin Wall the inernational rights of every country to build a border stupid.

H.G. Are you saying that people like Mr. Shootumall don't exist?

I hope it was the pro side trying to make a point.....for all our sakes....At least moderately intelligent dialogue takes place on Gather. I'd hate to see us overrun by representatives like this guy....

Stanley, except the country was already divided and had been since 1945. I'm not sure if the "stupid" part of your first comment was aimed at me but it seemed so. The reference to the Berlin wall was from the cited article. Vicente Fox made the comparison. I simply noted that the reasons for each were in opposition.

Well after a refresh I see the PS... but gotcha...we're good. Smoke to your hearts content or not.

"I hope it was the pro side trying to make a point."

If it was they failed miserably. To equate an anti-illegal alien position to racism is a weak minded and childish stunt. To equate an anti-immigration position is just about as weak. There exist a plethora of reasons that have nothing to do with race or even ethnicity to want tighter control of immigration. Overcrowded schools and emergency rooms, urban sprawl, pollution and security just pop right up there.

Jackie...

Take the time to re-read Shootemall's post. If this person was really of a white supremist group, I think we wouldn't have seen such polite terminology regarding "Hispanics" ;}