Twisted Logic

I would like to suggest that Muslims who live in free countries including these United States make their voices more known, and being that actions speak louder than words, their reactions and assistance to stop this violence would do more good than any one single soldier we have in Iraq right now...just my opinion - a small fish in a large fish bowl...

It would seem to me that western (aka usa) foreign policy playes right into this type of conduct. This is the foreign affairs of politically correct which apologizes for everything and hold no one responsible for anything. These people are criminals amd he sooner we and their own people stand up this the better off everyone will be.

What I find the most distressing is that their religious leaders do not denounce this conduct. It would seem that they are too are afraid. I cannot believe than any true man of God by what ever name you call Him can believe that this is His will.

Yeah...but then we can turn this all around, too...

Americans kill loads of people (and I have to say 'Americans' because not all of the soldiers are of one faith) and expect the rest of the world to live according to their rules...

Let's face it. It's always gonna be some big pissing contest anywhere ya go. They want an apology so that it looks like they've been horribly wronged. Our government wants compliance. Another wants fried mushrooms. Still another wants beer that tastes good.

Know what I would do? I'd mind my own business and not talk about any of 'em. Anything we say/do is open to interpretation, and only knows that someone would take 'hello' as an insult...

I have wondered about their quiet acceptance, too.

There definately seems to be something wrong about the mindset & worldview of many moslems - the reaction to the cartoon posting is an example. Some many moslems took this as an insult requirng immediate action for the offense, but there is no out cry when Islamic newspapers publish anti-semitic cartoons, which they have been doing for years.

Islam seems to lack an understanding of the concept of 'fairness', empahty, and 'freedom of expression and opinion.' These values seem to be lacking in Islamic behavior. Or at least in so many who participate in protests, etc.

I work for Muslims and I know how they are embarrassed by what other Muslims are doing. But what is stopping them from renouncing themselves?

If you did a similar litany of all the wrongs that wrongheaded Christians had done throughout history, it would be a pretty long list too. I am not condoning those horrific atrocities, any of them, but I think it is a very small percentage of Muslims who are doing these things. It's a good question, though, why more moderate Muslims are not raising their voices. Some are. I have read pieces by moderate Muslims condemning terrorism and the repressive actions of wahabbism.
But the vast majority of Muslims in the world are neither involved in terrorism, nor actively opposing it. A great Silent Majority. I can't explain it, and I don't like it, but referring to the perpetrators of the atrocities as "Muslims" instead of "Islamists" or even "Muslim terrorists" suggests that all of Islam approves of the terrorism. That is clearly not true, and I know that you do not believe that either, but the way you wrote your article suggests that.
You are not alone in condemning all of Islam for the actions of a few of their number. The resultant anger toward them pushes them in the direction of the terrorists instead of encouraging them to be on our side.
We need to figure out a way to enlist their help to stamp out terrorism. I do not think we can accomplish that without their help.

I agree with Simony and Sophie. Hatred goes both ways.

I note that Bush claims to be a Christian, and many agree. Does the number of people killed by him (via his very potent 'militia'--the US Armed Forces) count as "people killed by Christians"? This would seem to follow from your argument. Does the fact that he (and his machine) constantly remind us of the dangers of terrorism make him a terrorist?

Good Read Don...:o)..Siminy...The strange thing about all that is,..America get's crapped on no matter what,..who is the first to be called up for help,..money,..food,...ANYTHING!,..Kinda hard to stay out of everything when it comes to us,...but I agree,..some stuff we SHOULD stay out of,...Angela C---who has G.W killed?...or are you talking about our men in Iraq who went because they wanted to go,.."He is turning out to be just as bad as the terrorists he CLAIMS he is "protecting" us from"...LOL...had to laugh,..for some reason EVERYTIME someone bring's up the Muslim fools who behead people like the coward sick pricks that they are,..someone always has to turn it on Bush,..well imagine if CLINTON would have taken Osama out when he was asked to & had the chance to,......I guess some of the folks that are on gather that are not American's and don't live here just want us to keep taking it,..at LEAST G.W is doing something about it,....thats' why they hate him & loved Clinton.

I wondered how long it would take for someone to blame Clinton. Remember the mantra if the Republicans loose the house or the senate or both "It is all because of Foley"

It comes down to the opportunity of education Donald. We have stupid people here in the United States that by mostly peer pressure, but from other irrational avenues (like whacko faith types -of any faith), or drugs, gang activity etc. have the same consideration. look at any inner city kid's work-up behaviorially or in studies and you'll find their answers to questions and responses as appallingly backwards as many Middle Easterners of the same age and type questions. Why? the culture of ignorance they reside in and refuse to break out of. Though some do. in both cases. But it's like Bullets for Blessings. In whatever environment. They perceive us as corrupt and objectify and demonize just as readily as we do them. Hell I'm even getting irritated nowadays with what I'm hearing and reading. Blaming every U.S. citizen for government every U.S. citizen should be decrying themselves but not through the murder of innocent people. the opportunity of education. They haven't had it because the people in power in the region are just happy letting them be faithmongers and skimming money on the side for their own lascivious health where they can, if some Imams are just as defunct as some of our Pastors and Priests here are. Don't be fooled their governments are just as corrupt as ours.

GOD AND INDEPENDENCE ABOVE ALL!

Liz.............9/11 is just one incident......maybe we do or do not know the truth about it....but...a big BUT.....there are all of the other incidents that keep happening...what about them? What about the Muslim world that DOES NOT support this sort of action.......? There is no blanket generalization! There is statement of facts, no gerneralization......rather an observation about the loud & obvious Muslim press which DOES NOT speak for all of Islam.......but actually speaks aout for about 20% of the Islamic world.....!

Bert..ypu are absolutely correct......witness the Crusades, the Inquisiton, the perscution of the Protestants. the Salem witch trials, the persecution of the Mormons,...need I go on? It is the assininity of the few that fuels the flames to a heighth that makes others think that it is the entire community that supports such activities when just the opposite is true!

Sophie.....the whole point is to bring out tinto the open & you obviously did not read all of the article or you have ignored my ending....!

Disgusting, I agree....but don't forget our own ayatollahs like Rev Pat "who would Jesus assainate" Robertson. Religion has become very, very dangerous throughout the world.

Well this mess is getting too deep. I for one would love to see everyone in the world take all this as their wake up call no matter what country they are from and learn to help each other and stop blaming everyone else for their own problems. Peace is the only true way things can make every thing work out and I can't foresee that coming because someone always wants to try and win no matter how many die, some people live for war I think and have been that way since time began and I don't think it is going to ever change till finally wakes up to the fact that there's a better way. people are all the same some bad and some good in every culture but when we have to fight to make our countries safe then we have to but too many innocents are killed in the process. War is hellso they say and I believe that

Doc.

I did a double take when you said "arrogant Islamic Bastards." At first I thought "that's not like my wise friend to generalize," but then I read the next line where you mention YOUR Muslim friends. RIGHT ON! You didn't generalize at all. I totally understand that you are referring to the terrorists who happen to be Muslim and the extremism that has been brainwashed into them for generations, and not the innocent Muslims like your friends who don't buy into that propaganda. GOOD FOR YOU!!!

I have a very good Muslim friend here in Guelph who is an Iraqi Kurd. He had told me what bothers him in the world, but never will you hear him cry out against Americans, Christians, or Jews. When the Danish cartoons came out, he was the first person I wanted to speak to. He is as wise as you are. If you were in Guelph I'd take you both out for dinner at my favourite Danish restaurant.

Yes the terrorists are arrogant bastards who happen to be Muslim. Thank you for also recognizing the many Muslims who don't buy into that crap.

I only wish that Muslims like my friend and your friends would make the news in North America and abroad for their goodness, and that men like you would make headlines at home and abroad for the kind of wonderful Americans you are.

Moderate Muslims
Radical Muslims

One does not question the other's actions because the outcome will not affect them. Think about it. The Radicals are out to Islamize the world. The Moderates are already Islamized. Why should they care? Why should they get involved? They already know we are not going to get into profiling. They started building all these Mosques in the 80's so they could recruit. Why would the Moderates interfere with the recruiting of Islamic Religion. The only way they will ever stand up against the Radical Muslims is if they feel truly threatened by the rest of us.

Liz, you seem familiar to me, did you ever belong to the Face Reality Forum? Met a Liz there once who was dedicated to political debate. Just curious.

I'd also like to add my two cents as to Christianity:

It is the most persecuted religion in history. Many Christians were put to death as heretics, many cultures were wiped out completely because of their Christian beliefs. I believe more Christians have been persecuted than have persecuted others.

Donald, I just love the debate stirred by your article. If you intended to get us all thinking, you certainly succeeded. It takes courage actually to say what you've said. I won't go into my opinion here - it's pretty well covered by others' comments. I just want to add that my reaction to the Pope's statement was that I felt he acted completely without wisdom. Whether he's right or wrong is perhaps not the issue in this instance - he was foolish enough to voice a statement that was pretty much designed to unleash further Jihad. Go figure.

I appreciate the way you pulled all that information together too - gave a rather startling fisheye view of the problem. Mel

Well said, Doc. Some people who were friendly or eutral towards Muslims have been turned against them by their own behavior during the past few years.

Melinda, many media sources yanked the Pope's comment out of context. He was speaking wisely but got victimized by a press that is predisposed to hate Christians. I am sorry he apologized at all and glad he refused to budge.

Bush has no blood on his hands. He has pursued a just war against people who have declared war on us by their actions, and who were spoiling for it for a decade already, at least since the first attack on the WTC.

George Bush is my hero.

but don't forget our own ayatollahs like Rev Pat "who would Jesus assainate" Robertson. Religion has become very, very dangerous throughout the world.

Mr C. Bigfoot has it right. Fundamentalist Christians are among the most dangerous animals on the planet. Especially when confronted with fundamentalist Muslims...i.e., Islamists. The two groups are Hell-bent to take over the world for their respective faiths, and if they can't, they don't care if the rest of us perish in the process.

I believe more Christians have been persecuted than have persecuted others

I simply cannot let that pass. Christians have done more persecuting than any other religion. Let's talk about the Crusades...the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials...Christians have, throughout history, persecuted "nonbelievers." Now, some of them want to invoke "Biblical Law" in the United States, subjecting the rest of us to their personal Bible-based moral codes. Christians are among the most intolerant, aggressively evangelical religous folks the planet has ever experienced.
If some of them have been persecuted...they probably deserved it.

Hey Bert, if you were trapped in an airplane as a hostage, who would you rather have with you, Pat Robertson or Osama Bin Laden? Because according to you, that's probably what it's going to come down to.

They are both lunatics, but Osama is more dangerous. Robertson is pretty much a nonentity. Nobody takes him seriously. Not since he said the WTC attacks were God's punishment of the United States, and then more recently said God was mad at Dover PA for throwing the fundamentalists off their school board, and that bad things were going to happen to Dover. A certifiable nut case.
Gee, I just realized...Does Robertson think that Osama is an agent of God since he planned the WTC attacks?

Sophie.........that is your right to feel as you do but you must also understand that I can & do have my opinion. I have no bias towards Muslims but I do ahve a huge bias towards the radical, terroristic Muslims who have suddenly become the self-appointed spokes peole for the religion that they severely & grotesquely change to suit their twisted ideals. My rath & my ire as well as my attack is upon these radicals who pervert their wonderful religion & wholeslae terrorism globally to suit their misaligned & pervertede viewpoint....that is what I find loathsome.....!

Sophie.............you are correct & I have edited the article to denote the "radical" Islamic folks as opposed to those who are of the moderate type. Strange that the Muslims here on gather have not seen fit to point this out tomme?

"...It is the assininity of the few that fuels the flames to a heighth that makes others think that it is the entire community that supports such activities when just the opposite is true! ... " Donald H.

Could not the same be said from the 'other side' ? What about the view of America around the world lately ? Do you think it is because the more Liberal of us that seek peace are acting out when we can ... or ... is it because the radical right that supports the nastyness is the reason ? How do you know that the peaceful muslims are not speaking up ... how does the rest of the world know that the peaceful americans are not speaking up ???

Maybe it is just the Fear of the Nasty that gets all of the attention ... on both sided ?!? Seek and ye shall find !!!

... notice the word 'radical' prior to right in the above ... it does fit ! ... your words alone in your article are radical ! Yet they fit the thinking of far too many of your peers ... there, I have spoken up ... did anyone hear me ? Not as far as the radicals are concerned.

It is the radicalism that is the whole problem !

I just hope Christene C. stays away from me! She sounds dangerous... People like that are the reason I choose not to affix a picture to my icon: I wouldn't want her to be able to recognize me on the street!

One more thing: Donald, an elipsis only has 3 dots. Putting all those dots in there makes me think you've left parts out! Or that I'm supposed to stop and think, but I don't know what about! And what's with the delayed question mark.....................?

Also, since the point of this site seems to be about discussion, gathering, and comming together, I want to say "Kudos" (Hoping that Rush hasn't ruined this word) to Donald for at least changing his text a little, and maybe his thinking somewhat. Let's hope our minds can be opened even more! Maybe a consensus could be reached, eventually.