Last week, the Department of Defense released the obituaries of 30 military personnel killed in Iraq, ranging in age from 19 to 48, and one 21-year old soldier killed in Afghanistan.
As of Friday, 10/20, total U.S. deaths amounted to 2,781, in and around Iraq, and 283, in and around Afghanistan, according to the Pentagon.
Columnist Steve Lopez, of the Los Angeles Times, drove out to Hemet, a community located about 60 miles east of LA, to visit with the devastated parents of Army Cpl. Kenny F. Stanton, Jr., one of the casualties included in the above summary. Cpl. Stanton was killed when a roadside bomb exploded near his Humvee in Baghdad two weeks after his 20th birthday.
The following quote was included in Lopez' column, that appeared today: "Driving away, I find that I'm disturbed by the quiet acceptance of sacrifice to what has been a dubious mission from the beginning. I can't help but remind myself that the architects of the war have risked no personal loss, staying the course with someone else's children."
The continuing high level of deaths in Iraq also occured in a week that saw the release of information from the forthcoming memoirs of Germany's former Chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, in which he describes his suspicion of Bush's constant references to his Christian faith.
Schroeder indicates in his new book that, although his relationship with Bush was friendly, he could not reconcile himself with the feeling that religion was the driving force behind many of Bush's political decisions.
The ex-chancellor goes on to say: "What bothered me, and in a certain way made me suspicious, despite the relaxed atmosphere, was again and again in our discussions how much this president described himself as 'Godfearing.' "
Schroeder adds that he is a firm believer in the separation of church and state.
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Comments: 32
Thank you.
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=295002651#Post295002651
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David,
Since the beginning of the confict in Iraq, there have been many reports that seriously wounded American military have been flown out of Iraq to Germany and other hospitals, and their deaths, as long as they did not occur while in Iraq are not reported in the official ones issued as having been casualties there. The coffins of dead sent to the US are not allowed to be photographed on arrival.
There are also some 150,000 (this may be a high or low estimate) private contractors in Iraq, including former American military , who are engaged in operations with the regular military who have had many killed and wounded.
You're right, what can anyone say, Nancy?...
Donna, there are many places where the Americans could be stationed - including some of the permanent bases we've built right there in Iraq - which would get them more or less out of harm's way.
Norman, I guess we can only hope that the secular/progressive movement sweeps this way so that we can better insulate our political process from the ravages of religious interference....
Those are interesting points, Clarke. Given what we do know, it should be quite likely that you are right in suggesting that there is much we don't know that is being withheld from us.....On the subject of private contractors, I'm sure there will be some interesting stories surfacing at some point, or, at least I hope so.....
you know, liars are very anxious to tell you that they're honest.
now i'm not saying bush is a liar, although i know some people might claim that, but i am also uncomfortable if practically the whole conversation about something else seems to evolve around the other person's religion.
we didn't elect a pope. and we didn't elect a preacher.
i think bush should learn where that stuff might be appropriate and where it's not.
What if Mr. Lopez and the Free Press would have properly questioned the rush to war in Iraq. Maybe he would not have had to make that drive to Hemet.
Bush is about as Christian as the Antichrist.
It doesn't surprise me that a columnist from the L.A. Times doesn't understand the concept of Duty, Honor and Sacrifice for ones country. He was probably just disappointed he didn't get a hysterical "Bush killed my kid" rant so he could print the article he had already written.
Meryl, the phrase "separation of church and state" is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution of the U.S.
Why do you suppose all this polarizing is just now cropping up? We didn't see it under Clinton, the senior Bush, Carter and even Reagan, yet these were all leaders who certainly harbored religious beliefs.
The Christian right is a small fraction of this nation, but under this administration it wields a disproportionate amount of influence, and it is greedy for more.
And let's be realistic, just Joe, the sacrifices that are being made in Iraq by our heroes are definitely being made for their country, in their minds, but maybe you can explain just how this fiasco benefits any of us, other than the FOB's (Friends of Bush).
In fact, how does it benefit you? Your taxes will be higher to retire the massive debt. You are paying higher energy costs. Your freedom is unaffected. The threat of a domestic terrorist attack is no less. You might even lose someone you care about. What possible benefit will you derive from these sacrifices?
That's not a seperation, that's neutrality. Religious expression, even by elected officials, is perfectly acceptable and even appropriate if that is the basis upon which they arrive at their decisions. Some would say it would even be preferable if more public officials ran their decisions through a religious filter prior to implementing them.
I am sure just joe can speak for himself, but I can't let your comments and questions go unanswered.
I believe the sacrifices of our heroes in Iraq are worth it. All of us have benefited from the fact there has been no major terrorist attack since 911. A few months ago an Al-quaida operative admitted that over 4000 Al-quaida members have been killed in Iraq alone. We will never know what terror attacks have been averted in the US and other countries because President Bush had the courage to take the fight to them. I believe the threat of a domestic terrorist attack is much less now that Saddam is out of power and we are fighting them on Arab sand. The terrorists have been forced to focus their attention on our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and have had fewer resources available to strike the US homeland.
We complain about the high energy cost and the cost of the war in Iraq, but most of us go about our day just as we did before the war. I have not noticed much decline in auto traffic. I can think of a lot of wasteful government spending that's driving up our national debt, but I would not say fighting for our freedom is one of them.
Do we realize what is at stake here if we lose this war? Let's be clear here. These people want to destroy us. They will take every chance they get to kill Americans. They are not going to give up until we defeat them. We can't appease them like Israel has tried to do by giving away land. They are EVIL. Appeasement is a sign of weakness to them. They are willing to kiss the hand of their enemies until they are strong enough to cut it off. They will not stop terrorizing us if we pull out of the mid-east. We can not wish away this problem. We have to defeat evil.
There are a lot of things going on that we don't know about. The Bush administration and other government leaders have information about the war effort they can't tell us. Someday, probably ten or more years from now we will have a better understanding of what is happening now.
President Ronald Reagan was criticized by most every one and even called an amiable dunce. My high school teachers hated him and let all of us students know it. I came to believe that he was just a war monger who wanted power and didn't care about any domestic issues. I was devastated because he failed to cut a deal with Gorbachev to end the arms race. Reagan had the chance to win the Nobel Peace prize and be a world hero yet he refused because he knew that the Soviet Union was on the verge of collapsing. Reagan had the courage to take a stand against evil and because of it we no longer are under the threat of Soviet annihilation and many have been freed from the bondage of communism.
I am not about to suggest that George W. is another Ronald Reagan. However, we should reserve some judgment until we know what Bush knows now. Instead of criticizing and complaining, I suggest we get on our knees and pray that the Creator gives him wisdom to lead us.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
'Nough said,
Peace
David, so when a constitutional fact is pointed out, that being that the phrase "separation of church and state" is not actually in the constitution is actually to mean religion is being forced on the people? That's a good stretch of logic! How exactly does pointing out a fact equate to forcing religion on anybody? I just do not see it. Nobody has knocked on my door in the middle of the night and forced religion on me or my family. I think this issue has a lot of hyperbole attached to it. You must have been going crazy when jimmy carter was president, or even Clinton who still used more references of God than Bush in speeches.
I think all this "polarizing" has been building over time. The democratic party has been taken over by radicals, this has been building since the McGovern wing took over the party in 68. I just do not see the "religious right" as controlling all that much, I think it's just hyperbole. Give us an example (a real one) where the religious right has forced religion on YOU.
I guess it is safe to say you are against the battle in Iraq and are anti Bush. Taxes go up and down, the debt is down right now faster then anticipated due in part to the tax cuts. My freedom is unaffected? I thought my freedom was under attack due to the Patriot act and the Military Commissions act that killed our civil rights? Which is it, have my freedoms been affected or not. I can't keep the story straight when listening to all the rabble. I am not worried about domestic terror it's international terror that worries me and we have not been attacked in over 5 years. It hasn't been for lack of trying. We will be attacked in the future, at some point the enemy will get lucky.
You know, I just do not know what else to say to this kind of thinking. I think it's too easy too say that you are just another "Anti-Bush" type who is just opposed to everything and anything the President does. I don't know what you're like. What are the alternatives, to leave now. Tell us the consequences of the U.S. pulling out now. Take some time and look at the long view and tell us. Personally I think a lot of this is just the big "D" versus the big "R" stuff and a lot of you can't see past the political B.S.
Your ignorance right there shows your position! Everthing after that will be ignored. Iraq did not attack us. Iraq and the Iraqi citizens did nothing. this war has destroyed their infrastructure, their economy and any resemblance of peace. Do not even try to go into how bad Hussein was, it is much worse there now. At least then they had running water.
I believe too that most people serving believe they are doing it in defense of their country. That does not make it true! We are not safer becasue of this war!
To think for one moment that the insurgents waited to kill more service men to effect the elections is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as believing that the Dems held onto info on Foley until now.
By defination the Iraqis aided our enemies. Not all that much directly but they did. LOL, if you don't think the enemy knows US political problems than you might want to study history. In every war we have fought, especially since the 1940s, offensives/casualitiy producing means have been used to affect US policy. I could care less about the Dems and Foley but yopu might want to do some background before making your other claims....
David, the "Suddenly mushrooming threat of nuclear proliferation" you speak of, is that the same one the Iranians have been working clandestinely for 18 years and only recently brought out into the open? Or the North Korean threat that they have been working on for at least 10 – 15 years? Blaming either one on President Bush is, in a word, a lie. But then the anti-Bush crowd never let facts get in the way of their rhetorical propaganda.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
'Nough said,
Peace
David Beall says:
"Some would say it would even be preferable if more public officials ran their decisions through a religious filter prior to implementing them. "
Whose filter, David?
Lee says:
"I believe the threat of a domestic terrorist attack is much less now that Saddam is out of power and we are fighting them on Arab sand. The terrorists have been forced to focus their attention on our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and have had fewer resources available to strike the US homeland."
The terrorists could strike in this country through the cells that are here any time they wish to do so. I think you have to look elsewhere - other than Iraq - for the answer to the question of why they haven't.
and, Lee again:
"There are a lot of things going on that we don't know about. The Bush administration and other government leaders have information about the war effort they can't tell us. Someday, probably ten or more years from now we will have a better understanding of what is happening now. "
This argument is the ultimate cop-out for those that are desperate.
Just Joe says:
"The democratic party has been taken over by radicals, this has been building since the McGovern wing took over the party in 68."
The fact is, the Democratic Party is being taken over by conservatives. Sixteen Democratic candidates for Congress have been endorsed by a conservative coalition. Because of this trend, the Democratic Party has already had to strip its grand, liberal ambitions from its agenda. Joe, you must be reading from an old version of the Conservative Handbook.
Again, Joe says:
"the debt is down right now faster then anticipated due in part to the tax cuts."
I don't know where that info came from. The debt is up right now, and one of the primary reasons is the tax cuts. Bush essentially bought your support with funds to be paid by future taxpayers. The debt was closing in on $9 trillion the last time I looked and will certainly pass $10 trillion before Bush leaves office.
And finally, Apollyn quoted Bush:
"Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
This should answer all the points relative to separation of church and state....