Journey into the Tao Te Ching, Four:1

I fail to understand how empty-ness is the nature of the Dao, seems to me that it is all about full-ness.

I can understand the empty-ing of the mind in order to receive the full-ness though.

Or the empty-ness of anything (which would make it no-thing) without the Dao.

bravo...excellent

Fire and water are like yin and yang. Tao, like the valley, is their union in manifestation and also their origin, which is unmanifest. Lok may have meant this.

As I see it:

SOURCE is the TAO, DAO, or GOD, these are also the WHOLE. (Singularity of Unity)

From the source, into CREATION, is the Energy that is throughout ALL of the UNIVERSE. It is called THE GREAT TAI CHI, or SPIRIT, that connects and bridges the Gap or Void of Dualism.

DUALISM is the combination of separation of the YIN (or '-' of the Female aspect) and YANG (or '+' of the Male aspect) into a mix of Duality, (Manifested and/or unmanifested), all is relative and most often a Mix to one degree or other.

Thus, NOthing is but the relative Dualistic Opposite of the ALL that is GOD/TAO/DAO.

Yet, if 'things' are meant to be 'other than' (TAO/DAO/GOD), then from 'that' perspective, one might consider NOthing as leaving only TAO/DAO/GOD.

In ANY sense (other than THEORY) there is no such thing as nothing. What ever is not known, is but the relative opposite of that which is considered known.

Could this be approaching a semantic problem ? :-)

( ) is TAO, DAO, or GOD
(=) is The Above INcluding, TAI CHI or SPIRIT as '='
'+' is the YANG or MALE symbolization
'-' is the YIN or FEMALE symbolization
'/' is the GAP or VOIDS of DUALITY that has not yet been BRIDGED by '='

(+/-) =DUALITY=FEAR=HATRED=COMPETITITION=CONFLICT=DESTRUCTION=the concept of NOTHING at it's potential extreme !

(+=-) =TRINITY=LOVE=COMPASSION=COOPERATION=PEACE=CREATION via SYNERGY=ETERNAL LIFE via the SPIRITUAL association with THE ALL !

Sorry to keep stressing this, but I really believe it is important to be understood.

(+/-)=:-(
(+=-)=:-)

Peace, j.

Jerry,
'empty', 'emptiness' are metaphoric terms used by Lao Zi throughtout the Dao De Jing.

Since he &/or his disciples wrote the text, to be true to his original creation of Daoism/Taoism we have to use his terms and metaphors.

Now, it is important to recognize that he did live thousands of years ago. He knew nothing of quantum physics, or even Newtonian physics.

The metaphor os emptiness comes from looking at a womb, a bowl or wagon wheel. The usefullness of the bowl is the empty receptive curves that enables the vessel to receive objects. The spokes of the wagon wheel surround the empty hole at the center of the wheel and it is through that empty hole that the wheel is attached to a wagon. This is the metpahoric utility of emptiness. The Dao is like this - the ultimate yin, the ultimate receptive thing - the womb, waiting for yang, the seed, to come and interact and fill it so that all things can be creative.

Your idea of 'nothing' is based on your understanding of modern physics - that seems to be the metaphoric system you are using.

Your ideas are only one of a possibly infinite collection of metaphoric systems.

'nothingness', 'emptiness' are important metaphors in the symbolic system of Daoism. To understand Daoism is to acknowledge the meaning of 'emptiness' in that system.

I would think that Lao Zi reflecting on your system would say that the Dao can be found in what you call 'the void' - that place of potential - that which is neither yin or yang. This is the 'emptiness' which becomes something.

It is best not to assume you know everything, but rahter to be humble and approach all things with childlike wonder. Appreciate the newly encountered thing as it presents itself. Study it and learn what it has to say about itself. Once having mastered the new system within the context of that system - then you can begin to compare it to other systems.

You seem to have skipped over mastering Daoism as Lao Zi present it in the Dao De Jing and jumped to trying to assert your own system first and assimilate Lao Zi's into yours.

Calm down, relax, and read and study Lao Zi's text for itself. Once you appreciate its/his wisdom then you can have greater insights into your own and others.

I prefer to think of things optimistically, that things are never emptied.

Gary,

I am well aware of many concepts. I have read the Hua Hu Ching by Lao Tzu, (1st edition translated by Brian Walker). I have read and studied many other books about both Eastern and Western concepts, philosophies, religions etc. But none of it was studied prior to 13 years ago when I had my own 'Enlightenment'.

So I have actual experience in these matters that came first. The subsequent study was to better understand the experience, based upon related happenings involving others before me. Unlike the disciples that follow other 'Masters' and Gurus, I consider myself an apostle of the Spiritual. I have a very Spiritual relationship with the realm of God via my higher Self.

Now if you are giving instruction, which it appears that you are doing, of course you must have a curriculum around which to teach. I have written a book that would be my curriculum. I can attest to the usefulness of that for seekers of transcendent truth. In fact, my theory is transcendent to all other theories that I am aware of, and that is a significant number.

To stick to a singular theory or concept while rejecting other, possibly more valid concepts, is nothing more than 'religious' apologetics. I have always sought the very highest truth, and I believe I have found it. To reject it out of hand without even understanding it, as you seem to be doing, is not being very wise. I would think that your student/disciples would want to know about highest truth and as their instructor, you should not short change them. Yet I do understand that far too many just pick one system to study because they have been indoctrinated over the ages to do it that way. Too bad, I would say, when the seeking of truth will present such internally via our own spiritual higher Self. I do know this for a fact and I offer a concept transcendent to that claimed to be understood now by those studying the words of thousands of years ago.

I have studied Quantum Physics enough to form my opinions, but my concept comes first from intuition, then refined via all of what I have read and studied … and that has been a vast undertaking that was spiritually inspired and guided.

You say to me:

" … You seem to have skipped over mastering Daoism as Lao Zi present it in the Dao De Jing and jumped to trying to assert your own system first and assimilate Lao Zi's into yours. … "

That is not exactly the way it happened, in that I developed my 'system' based upon experience and all systems that I have then studied (as I have said). Of the many 'other' systems studied, I have found none that were completely satisfactory to me as a seeker of highest truth. But I do see much in the TAO/DAO that is applicable to mine, only I offer improvements.

You say to me:

" … It is best not to assume you know everything, but rahter to be humble and approach all things with childlike wonder. Appreciate the newly encountered thing as it presents itself. Study it and learn what it has to say about itself. Once having mastered the new system within the context of that system - then you can begin to compare it to other system. … "

That is good advice for each and all, including yourself, and especially for students that are disciples. But when something has been studied to mastery, one should not discard that in favor of anything else that comes along until they have studied both or all in order to make an informed comparison. I have done all of that and I stick by my distillation of all of that into (+=-) ! Humbleness would be akin to sitting in a cave just waiting for seekers to come find me. The sorry world condition now, calls for a more pro-active process. Highest truth is far more important than feigned humility IMnsHO.

You say to me:

" … Calm down, relax, and read and study Lao Zi's text for itself. Once you appreciate its/his wisdom then you can have greater insights into your own and others…. "

As I have said, I have studied much, believe I understand it all quite well, and for the sake of this discussion, I suspect that the teachings of Lao Tzu are compatible with those of Lao Zi. So I would state that I am not at all excited about any of this in a negative sense as you seem to be implying. I would thus suggest that the same does apply to yourself in that I welcome any and all criticism of my concept … but only by those that have made a real and honest attempt to first understand it.

All in all, I stand behind my concept and challenge anyone to shoot it down. That is how sure I am of it's importance and truth.

Peace and all due respect, j.

Hi Jerry and Kathryn,

Hmmm....the term 'emptiness' as used by Lao Zi in the Dao De Jing is a metaphor not a statment of something that relates to science - qunatum phycisc or otherwise - that directed to Jerry.

Emptiness is not a 'negative' term Kathryn , so there is no need to be pessimistic or opptomistic about it. The term is used to describe a receptical waiting to be filled. Such as an empty bowl or a virgin female and her womb. It is a metaphoric image of potential waiting to happen.

Jerry - 'emptiness' would seem to relate to your term 'the void' - at least possibly.
Sorry if I came off all 'teacher' like. It just that, for me, when I study a teaching I learn to understand it on its own terms.

For instance, I've studies Traditional Rabbinic Judaism and Jewish Kabbalah. I understand both and can talk and discuss both from that perspective, even though I don't agree with all of it in terms of my own religious practice or thinking beyond the Jewish worldview. But I accept their metaphors and understand them. They are stating truth as they know it.

Lao Zi is stating truth as he knows it, thus of course there is a thing as emptiness - it is that state of potential waiting to be creatively filled. And yes in physic terms a bowl is 'filled' with air and a womb is filled with - whatever it is filled with, but to flat out state that emptiness does not exist - in the context of a discussion of Daoism, shows a lack of appreciation and respect for the tradition. You can say, after acknowledging the meaning of the term in Daoism that in the greater realm of physical science there happens to be no such thing as 'emptiness' - everything is filled with the quantum flux of matter/energy, etc.

It was only that you failed to do that. You let yourself be open to misunderstanding - as I did.

I too have had my own personal mystic revelation and built my own metaphysic/philosophic system as I pursued my studies from that reveleation. But, I always acknowledge first the teachings of others and their traditions before I offer ideas from my own system, especially when discussing that tradition.

It's not a matter of right and wrong - the multiple and almost infinite contexts of our topic - the nature of reality, is all too many to be covered by such a simple phrase.

I wasn't rejecting your ideas I was merely pointing out that you failed to acknowledge Lao Zi/Lao Tzu's when you boldly stated that 'nothing/emptiness does not exist.' You gave no context for such a statement. You failed to acknowledge the existance of the metaphoric usage. That was all I was pointing out. I never even directly commented upon your system. I would tend not to challenge it or calim it was in error, I can't attempt to do that until I have studied it and I have not. I can point out puzzles I might have with what you say, seeking clarity, but this is not saying that you are 'wrong'. Just seeking understanding.

ps. Lao Tzu is the old Western transliteration of the Chinese characters, the new system devised by modern China circa 1980(?) is Lao Zi. They are 2 different spellings and proununceations for the same name. Same with Tao = Dao, different spelling conventions.

Gary, I thank you for the answering comment. Some of our seeming disagreements may well be semantics and not knowing each other well enough to better communicate, especially in this very limited format.

Most of the time I comment on the various threads, I do so for the other potential readers, much more so than attempting to correct or change the mind of the commenters themselves. I do recognize that to each their own, and that God approves of that. I just want to get my concept of (+=-) out to the very widest audience. What they then do with it is completely up to them.

I appreciate also your clarification presented in your last paragraph above, I sort of suspected that they may have all been one and the same.

Thanks again. I hope for continuing dialogue, the more understanding the better.

Peace, j.

Jerry K.,
You wrote: "Seek and ye shall find, but not before it 'really' matters to you !"

From a Taoist perspective, this is true, as is your concept of (+=-). However, Taoism is not essentially metaphysical. It is at its root,alchemical and , I would say, "practical." The search is infinite. Mysticism is for mystics. Alchemy is for Taoists. On the art&science of searching, in the spirit of the Lao Tzu, and reflecting the metaphors of "fire" and "water":

attention + the machine=energy
energy - attention = the machine

hi Jerry,

I tend to do alot of commenting on trying to increase clarity...hence my commments on your comments...

In that way I'm like Poe's Raven - a one note bird who keeps saying "Clarity" rather than "Nevermore." I open up my beak when I reading something that is unclear.

You have been working on this system of yours for clearly a long time - I think I recall a book has been written on it, I've been doing my best to follow your ideas. On my to do list is going back and re-reading your premarks on your system....

Thanks Gary, the entire 'system' is self correcting, but, better yet I think, when the Self is involved.
Thanks Clarke, I was not aware that Taoism was alchemical. Is the 'machine' materialism ?

Jerry K.,
Taoism, of course, doesn't use the term "machine." I won't try to describe it here in Taoist language, as you may be more familiar with the Christian. The "machine " in the Bible is the natural man , made up of the functions of thinking, feeling, the senses . He is the body without mind.The Bible uses the word "dust." He is also "fallen." In the NT, he is "asleep, " and needs to wake up. ("Body" is functions, i.e. thoughts,feelings and sensations which are all on the same level and can operate automatically without consciousness : thus the "machine")

Thanks Clarke, all of that fits my concept of the material manifested body that deals in the objective 5 physical senses primarily believing that materialism is his primary reality and the transcendent spiritual realm is the only subjective to him ... prior to his being graced, enlightened, saved so as to know unconditional love through his 6th sense of intuition (that being the Great Tai Chi, the higher Self, the Holy Ghost, or whatever name one feels inclined to believe is the highest truth associated with God or the TAO. IMnsHO :-)

I know the basics of Taoism (that of the essence that is most important to me) yet I have trouble applying the Sanskrit words to their intended meanings. I have read much on it, but never put the effort into word specificities as I have been pretty much a loner never finding anyone that knew enough to have a discussion with until I came to Gather and Tribe.

I know, I am too wordy, but I guess that is just me ... besides, my current excuse is that it is late (0224AM) and I am tired ... checking out, nite nite, j.

Jerry K.,
I see what you refer to as cultivating the intuition relating to a mystical path. I see the Taoist path as being an alchemical practice, that is seeking to transform the coarse to the fine . In practice this work is "out of time" and yet present in this moment. It includes dualism in unity.

In the classic Understanding Reality it says: "Let the other be the host, oneself be the guest." In Taoism, essence is host of the body. We can work consciously with the body, the guest in order to cultivate essence.

"If one can be balanced and harmonious in oneself, then the being that is fundamentally so is clear and aware, awake in quietude, accurate in action;thus one can respond to the endless changes in the world." (The Book of Balance and Harmony) In the moment before the functions (thinking, feeling,the senses) move there is balance. When they move and are in proper relation there is harmony.

It is through relating the body to the mind that one opens to essence. "Let the other be the host, oneself be the guest."

In Western alchemy there is a saying that : "Going along" produces people; "reversal" creates the elixir of immortality. This points to the same aim of the work of Taoism ( for that matter, Jesus' teaching in the NT): to create a second body.

The Taoist ideas, which provide the "map" to guide the seeker, are traditional, that is similar to those in other world teachings. For example, in the Western tradition we have the microcosom and the macrocosom representing the structure of the human being and the universe. The human being has seven interpenetrating centers , as has the universe.

Thanks again Clarke. I see your wisdom in your understandings as presented here (and other places), a good blending of the semantical differences that are not really different at all.
I also now understand what you meant by the alchemical process of the course to the fine ... which is the major transformational process within, during the actual enlightenment experience, that amounts to an energy upgrade, associated with a reprogramming of the DNA when the Kundalini opens the flow through all of the Chakras re-balancing the Tree of Life ...

Hi Clarke,

you wrote: "
Jerry K.,
Taoism, of course, doesn't use the term "machine." I won't try to describe it here in Taoist language, as you may be more familiar with the Christian. The "machine " in the Bible is the natural man , made up of the functions of thinking, feeling, the senses . He is the body without mind."

Actually the idea that the mind can be seperated from the body is a major philosophic error. The mind is not a thing which is seperate from the body. The mind is a unity of the body and derives its function, creation and its workings from the body. Check out George Lakoff and Mark Johnson's monumental work: Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and its Challenge to Western Thought.

hi Jerry,

you wrote: "I know the basics of Taoism (that of the essence that is most important to me) yet I have trouble applying the Sanskrit words to their intended meanings. I have read much on it, but never put the effort into word specificities as I have been pretty much a loner never finding anyone that knew enough to have a discussion with until I came to Gather and Tribe."

Lao Zi and his Dao De Jing is not a 'sanskrit' text it is a Chinese text. Daoism is one of the great acheivements of China. Very important to not confuse the origins of Daoism with sanskrit and thus India.

He is the body without mind."

Actually the idea that the mind can be seperated from the body is a major philosophic error. The mind is not a thing which is seperate from the body. The mind is a unity of the body and derives its function, creation and its workings from the body. Check out George Lakoff and Mark Johnson's monumental work: Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and its Challenge to Western Thought.
>>>>
Gary,
Does a human being who "thinks, feels,senses" have a "mind"? Without an active attention, that is a relation between this "machine" and the attention , is the human being more than a multiplicity of acquired reactions that claim to be the self (and often don't know one another). The Western separation of body and mind that you refer to is not the same "contradiction " that I have been addressing.

The cultivation of an inner life in the way I have described as Taoist (or alchemical) requires, first, a direct experience of this "contradiction." This can lead to a separation of the functions and a balanced reordering so that they can work harmoniously. This is like separating "me" (the "ego") from the potential "I" or individuality. It naturally leads to a resonance between self and Self , in which the inner, active attention is working with Mind. This takes long practice - an individual matter how long , according quality of effort, skill etc. One can study a system of knowledge for many years, understand its theory, its symbols and metaphors , have many "high experiences" and "enlightenments" yet not get far on the path toward transformation, toward ultimately merging self and Self (when self vanishes and Self is one and all). Many can learn the forms of the energy arts such Qi kung and martial arts, yet never become masters.

I think it is accurate to describe our situation as one of being incomplete. We are always unconscious until we make the effort to become conscious, to activate the process of evolution toward becoming conscious. Consciousness is infinite, and we have the possibility of becoming more conscious. We have to begin again and again.

Each of our functions have to be taught to work together. The feelings cannot communicate with our thought except through sensation. Attention is necessary , call it an "active mind" which , through turning inward can begin the process. A thousand times a day, there is something in us that remembers this , but we do not hear or listen. When we remember and hear we can work. But we will again forget.

Jerry K.,
Yes, I agree with your analogies, in that they seem to correspond with what we were discussing. The Tree of Life certainly represents a complete system of universal knowledge. Now, as for the DNA and Kundalini , I can't say I understand them , although I have thought about them and read what others say. I am just a learner. The transformation process Milarepa describes resonates with me. (Life of Milarepa)

I will stand corrected where correction is due. As I said, I am ignorant of much of the Sanskrit writings and specific words, though I have read some of it ... Chinese characters I have not the slightest idea about, so I will not quibble over such, rather I prefer to deal in the essence of all meanings which are expressible in any language as the perennial wisdom of the ages. That is ONE and the SAME at the CORE. I agree though that it is important for us to communicate all such as best that we can though.

As for the mind connection/non connection, for my purposes, I see there being two minds, a lower and a higher, associated with our two selves (self/Self). The lower is that related to our Brain with the 'normal' objective inputs (5) and the concept of self (ego) and relationships around that. This could be a lower 'frequency' signal.

Then 'above' that, would be the 'higher' frequency channel of our subjective spiritual realm of Self/Soul, what we would normally associate with our 6th (or zero point) sense of intuition. This being an esoteric reality while the former would be the exoteric in relative relationship. It is the esoteric spiritual mind that can integrate the two, but only when the lower is really ready. It is the higher that is in control ... though we are free to ignore it at any time ... as far too many do.

As for the DNA aspect of it all, I can recommend some good books on that, but many that reject all new-age stuff would get little from them I suspect. I have heard of Milarepa, but do not recall any reading ... though I probably did read something of his back when ... there has much reading over the last 13 years.

Peace, j. (gotta go get in my exercise, too much sitting here). :-)

Jerry K.,
Working with different energies requires practice and preparation as you suggest . The notions of lower self and higher self I think needs to be seen in the perspective of the human being's structure and role. The Heaven - Man - Earth view the Chinese offer shows our role as a transmitter , up or down, the scale. To locate awareness "in the brain" raises the question, "Do we have one brain located in the head"? The whole human being in a balanced state should function as a unit. We have a three-brain structure, distributed throughout the body.

Energies are constantly passing through us, of many different vibrations. To become aware of them and work with them takes much practice , and has to be learned gradually . It would shatter the system if " special techniques" were used to receive some higher vibrations before one was prepared. Intuition that you speak of is a step toward receiving some higher energies which can be used to transform one's whole being. I referred to the saying , "Going along" produces people; "reversal" creates the elixir of immortality." The aim is not "enlightenment" but growth of being (and radiation to all life for its evolution thereby of energy received).

I have worked with DNA in labs,'did cancer research for 25 years. Crick , who got the Nobel, suggested that genes are the blueprint for the body's proteins and that DNA controls its own replication. The blue print is correct ( it may be found in the I Ching?) . However, it doesn't control its replication. You are right that DNA can be altered. This takes place on the celluar level (and through the RNA). Energy practices can work with the cells directly.

Clarke, to the the limited degree I am able, I understand and agree with all you have said above. I can see that my also limited knowledge about DNA/RNA is insufficient to discuss such with you. What I have read is but introductory New-Age stuff, various books by Drunvalo Melchizedek and Gregg Braden. I have actually 'studied' those books, but like much at my age, hard to remember. :-)

I also agree that man is a 'transceiver' both directions, but until 'balanced' via actual esoteric 'enlightenment' (not the common idea of dime a dozen exoteric enlightenmentS) he is unaware of his potency. Thus his thoughts are prioritized around the lower mind associated with the brain more so that the entire body.

After the actual (real)(and rare) Enlightenment, the DNA is reprogrammed to the degree the entire body becomes that higher mind transceiver, then the person can sometimes be very aware of this.

You speak of a 'reversal', I have found that much of my thinking has very much 'reversed' from my earlier life via my awakening. I find that to be the case with most people that have had such experience based upon their writings. It is that experience that taps into that perennial wisdom I mentioned and allows one to know the difference between the former exoteric and later esoteric concepts. All a part of the DNA changes IMnsHO.

I also am reminded to mention here, that I have great interest in many things, including areas of science. But as I found out 13 years ago, there are great discrepancies in the viewpoints held to be true between the two camps involved, those that are open to subjectivity more, and those that deal solely in objectivity with it's double blind proofs. This seems to be the case in all of the fields that I am aware of.

So when I read up on things, I always have to make that intuitive balance between all of these possibilities ... and naturally, being now more spiritual, I often lean in that subjective direction knowing that the deck is stacked in the other direction of orthodoxy.

Jerry K.,
I am sure we agree in many ways about the potential for spiritual development available for human beings. It is easy for people to use the same words and mean different things and vice-versa. When it comes to translations of great texts such as that of Lao Tzu, people may use different words to express their understanding of what are not just words but profound metaphors for what cannot be understood except through experience, which is relative to the learner.
One may work with the language and metaphors from one teaching, and another who follows a different teaching may read them and interpret their meaning as the same or different. I am "eating" your book and enjoying it.

Thanks Clarke. I hope you do not get any indigestion ... :-)