Dear Gather Members,
This is a copy of an email exchange I had recently with my friend Bob. Both of us are quite liberal politically, but see the Islamist situation differently.
I'd sent Bob a webpage with some alarming photos of Islamists protesting in the streets of London. I urge you to look at all the photos, there's just a sampling of them here in this article.
Bob wrote back saying:
"We've been on the same page about so many issues, I'm sad to be on a different page from you on this one.
These demonstrations are clearly designed to get exposure on tv and to provide photo ops. There are probably almost 1 billion Muslims in the world (sic). Are you suggesting that these photos - assuming, arguendo, that they are genuine - are they grounds to incite against the entire Muslim world? Sorry, but I don't think the people exemplified by the late Meyer Kahane‚ represent all Israelis and I don't think these people exemplify all Muslims.
If we allow ourselves to be influenced by a few photos like these, we are sinking to their level. What action does the provider of these photos recommend?
Let's use a little critical thinking here, okay?"
What follows is my reply...
---------------begin-------------
Hey Bob,
What makes you think these photos are an indictment of ALL Muslims? They're photos taken in London - not Tehran - of radical Muslims, i.e. Islamists! Wouldn't you be alarmed if a bunch of Apocalyptic Christians were in the streets vowing to bring the Second Coming about by killing all non-believers? Crazies are crazies - fanatics are fanatics. You can't talk to them because they already know everything they want to know and any logic or common sense is "from the devil" - and that holds true across the religious fanatic spectrum!
Do these pictures not give you any pause? It's not like this is an isolated incident. The fact that it's taking place in London only gives more credence to the idea that these nutjobs have the same "world conquest' designs as many others who've preceded them. They also have the memory of the Caliphate and a "mission from Allah" to return to those good ol' days.
You know me well enough to know I'm neither an alarmist nor a bigot. I know reasonable Muslims who feel the same way I do about the crazies in their religion. This danger - and it is a danger - comes from the millions of fanatic Muslims, hell-bent on an Infidel-free world! They don't care who they have to sacrifice for this end. Nasrallah has said that the weakness in Western Culture, the one that will doom us, is that we love life. He actually said that his bunch loves death! They love death and that will assure their victory! Besides being absolutely creepy, it shows the mindset of evil. I've told you my personal definition of evil is: The good of the few at the expense of the many - and to this, add the utter blindness that darkness brings. In such a statement as Nasrallah's, I see a man whose completely turned away from the light. We all know how blinding it is to be plunged into darkness. When you turn out the lights in a windowless room, it's impossible to see! Nasrallah and his ilk live in that room. History knows it all too well. Hitler lived there. Stalin lived there. Ceausescu lived there. The Hutus of Rwanda lived there. The government of Sudan lives there. I could go on and on, but you get the point.
When people see each other as symbols instead of individuals, genocide is possible. Combine it with paranoia of some sort and all hell breaks loose! This tactic has worked on the masses for millennia. People seem all too ready to fear "the other." What's so hard for us in all this, Bob, is that‚ we're the other! We're the object of paranoia! We're not used to being on the receiving end of that! We're used to having it for others. That's why Islamists are a real threat. Even if only a small percentage of Muslims are Islamists - say 5% - that equals 75 million people! That's not an insignificant number ready to act on their paranoia and megalomaniacal aspirations! That's a number that should get your attention!
Bob, I feel like Cassandra. I know this situation with the Islamists will only get worse. It will grow into something that endangers the whole world unless it's universally recognized and addressed. Cassandra is never believed and terrible things ensue because of it. After assessing all the facts, I am no mystical, woo-woo Cassandra. My opinions are all based on facts and research. I'm willing to change my opinion when I see contradictory facts. Please provide some, I beg you! So far, my viewpoint is only strengthened by the facts.
Check out Nonie Darwish. Nonie's father headed the Egyptian military in Gaza and the Sinai when Gaza was under Egyptian control in the Fifties. He was appointed by Nasser, to head the Fedayeen operations against Israel, and was a founding member of the PLO. In 1956 he was killed in the Jihad against Israel and became a national hero, a "Shahid." The Israelis assassinated him. Nonie's other website is Arabs for Israel. In 1978, Nonie emigrated to America. After 9/11 she realized that her culture of origin was in a head-on collision with the rest of the world, and started speaking out against terrorism and the underlying culture that produced it. She's featured extensively in the new documentary, "Obsession, Radical Islam's War Against the West" She speaks extensively, and is currently writing her first book: "Lifting the Veil: by the daughter of a Shahid."
I have a rather long but, hopefully, worthwhile article on Gather, The REAL War! Radical Islam and the Lies About Israel - A View From The Eye of the Storm about this issue with other interesting links and comments.
Hope this sets your mind at rest - at least about me. Since I value your intelligence, insight and opinion, I hope you'll read the article and visit the websites to let me know if any of it has an effect on your viewpoint.
Your buddy,
Duse
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Comments: 47
Great response to Bob's e-mail!
Sorry, not buying by simply the photos.
as long as they can keep fomenting hatred between Islam, Jews and Christians
we will keep fighting among ourselves at the in the front of the store, while they take everything away out the back and we are too distracted by the fight to notice!!!
The reason it is an old trick is it works EVERY time!
Thanks for the very insightful article!
It truly amazes me, according to some of the responses you got, that for some unknown reason a lot of people still don't get the magnitude of this problem.
Is no one watching the news? I do and there's not a night that goes by without some loony Muslim telling people how their religion shall rule the world, or chanting "death to America" in their worship services, or burning something in streets! These so-called religious leaders preach hate and intolerance from their pulpits. It's Nazism all over again! And that can ONLY lead to a very costly and disastrous world war III.
*Note to Americans here on gather, if you only watch the ABC, NBC, or CBS news then you are doing yourself a great disservice. A great example is the interview of President stupid a++ of Iran on 60 minutes. What a joke of journalism that was! The soft networks don't want the loonies bombing their buildings, so they stay away from reporting on the insanity of the mid-east Muslim world.
Are there really people out there unaware that the Iranian President said that Israel should be wiped off the map, and sees it as his responsibility to hasten the coming of the apocalypse. And that's the country's leader talking to his people! That's only a few of the very stupid and really, really scary things that he has said on TV.
I'm glad you mentioned the movie "Obsession." This is a must see for all the clueless individuals whose motto tends to be, "can't we all just get along and have group hugs?"
The Islamic fascist pigs of the world, and there are many thousands of them, want you dead!
Those two photos are accurate representations of the mind-set of European and Mid-Eastern Muslims. Like I asked earlier, do you people not watch the news?
I think it's highly demeaning of all these so-called "progressives" or "liberals" whatever you want to call people who refuse to believe what they are being told by Islamists. Islamists tell us daily that they want us all to all convert or die. These peeps who refuse to believe what their eyes and ears are telling them are treating the very people they think they are defending as babies who just don't understand what they are saying. Very condescending behavior. Why do they continue to refuse to believe what they are being told? I don't get it.
Denial just aini't a river in Egypt.
You wrote:
"Nonetheless, those 2 pics do NOT represent the whole of 2.5billion muslims
anymore than right wing bigots represent the whole of the United States"
There are currently 1.5 billion Muslims - though their numbers are growing.
I wrote:
"What makes you think these photos are an indictment of ALL Muslims? They're photos taken in London - not Tehran - of radical Muslims, i.e. Islamists!"
and
"Crazies are crazies - fanatics are fanatics. You can't talk to them because they already know everything they want to know and any logic or common sense is "from the devil" - and that holds true across the religious fanatic spectrum!"
BTW, I totally agree with you about the Iraq debacle. I've spoken out against the war since it began. Saddam was a bad guy and a brutal dictator, but he and the Iraqis were not involved in the attack on 9/11. We should have stayed the course by only going after the terrorists who attacked us. Such things are usually done with spy and police work rather than bombing. The reason for that is it works, unlike bombing!
Because of the pettiness of this administration, we're stuck in a quagmire. I don't believe Bush when he says the war is about democracy. I'm too jaded, too cynical for that. The Pollyannas out there can choose to believe it but I'm always thinking "Who's benefitting?" So I say "Follow the money." Again, it turns out to be Bush's friends and cronies. This only increases my cynicism. All those precious lives have been lost for war profiteering and - I know it's coming - oil!
Yes, DD, I wonder too why people don't believe their own eyes and ears? These photos, I'll say again, are not - in ANY way - an isolated incident. Indiana Bob is absolutely right about this being a daily occurance. As I said in this article, it doesn't matter if only a small percentage of Muslims are Islamists - ready to wreak violence on us in the name of Jihad! That small percentage isn't thousands - it's high double-digit millions! 5% = 75 million!
I agree too, with TJ about the Qu'ran. I, too, am not making anti-Muslim statements here. I'm only anti-Islamist because they're beyond the Nazi's in wanting to dominate the world and make it not only Jew-free, but Infidel-free! They're lost in their darkness and that is their weakness.
As I've already said, my greatest fear is that it will take the West too long to come to grips with the reality of the situation - thereby giving these rabid dogs valuable time to cause immesurable and unthinkable grief before they're finally put down.
> "As I've already said, my greatest fear is that it will take the West too long to come to grips with the reality of the situation... "
I'm an education freak and feel that education is the key to solving many of the problems with Jihadists. The logistical problem is that millions of poor children have already been indoctrinated to hate pretty much anyone who isn't one of them.
If only all the war and Jihad dollars had gone to education and bettering the plight of the abjectly poor - if only! It's a sad statement on humanity's priorities. I agree that it would be a major benefit to start the secular education process - if there's a way to penetrate the dark world of Islamism. Gather and other websites have worldwide reach and I'm always hoping some of that education is reaching places nothing else can.
Actually, the the boys do not learn to actually read the Quran, they learn to memorize it, and if the Islamic country they come from does not speak Arabic, they will not learn anything except what their mullah is teaching them. They learn to recite the Quran in Arabic only.
In "Perfect Soldiers", Terry McDermott noted: "Most of the men of September 11 came from apolitical and unexceptional backgrounds. They evolved into devout, pious young men who, over time, drew deeper and deeper into Islam."
What is frightening is that in most cases, this transformation occurred while these men were living, working and studying in the West. Many of them were alternately seduced by and disgusted by the more vulgar aspects of Western culture.
Unfortunately, education alone will not work wonders with these legions of disaffected and angry young Muslims, humiliated by the failure of their nations to keep pace with the West and the East.
Neither will democracy, of course. As the saying goes: "Be careful what you wish for - you might get it." In the nations with Muslim majorities, true "liberty" would probably create even more problems for the U.S. as it has in Palestine and Iraq. Of course, cynical "Realpolitikers" have known this for generations, which is why we have supported despots who keep our SUV's gassed up for us! How ironic that today it is the Neocons who are the starry eyed dreamers, when in the '60's it was the peaceful folk who were ridiculed for their naivete'.
According to truthorfiction.com, the doctoring of protest photos has been done in the past and is, apparently, fairly simple to do.
Robert isn't as concerned as I am, but we agree that these people represent a small percentage of all Muslims. I believe them when they say they want to behead me or that they're hell-bent on bringing about the "real holocaust." They have patience. They have lots of money. They're organized. They're hate-filled. They have a fervid religious belief in their cause and a willingness to sacrifice their lives for it.
It doesn't take an army to wreak havoc. It only takes one nutjob with a bomb. There are approximately 2,500 nutjobs - like the ones pictured - here in the California, alone! Michigan has a large amount of Islamist crazies as well. Most Muslims are not interested in violence but the small percentage that is represents MILLIONS of people!
Sorry I took so long to come across this article. Well done! Your observations and responses are very astute. I agree with all you've said.
'People' seem to want to live in denial. When the ugliness of the world rears its ugly head (in this case the Islamists) it baffles me why so many people then try to disprove that these monsters truly exists. Even though they have all the evidence before them, proving that they do!
Prime example. I have seen the movie Obsession. It is a MUST see for EVERYONE of goodwill on the planet. It is a documentary (very graphic by the way) depicting how these Islamists really feel and conduct themselves. This film cannot find a distributor here in the US. Why? Fahrenheit 9/11 did! How can this, a FACTUAL documentary not? Simple. Because people don't want to know what is REALLY going on in the world! Ignorance is bliss and my my, we are a happy lot, aren't we!
After viewing Obsession, I sent a link of the film's website to all of my friends; liberals, conservative, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. I received one response from a friend of mine, who said, ''Gee, Tiffany, you are rough for sending this link. You really take all this seriously, don't you?" Here was my response; "Andy, how is that rough? Sometimes the truth is not pleasant, but G-d gave us eyes to see and brains with which to think. Closing your eyes and shutting yourself off to viewing something that is true, simply because it is unpleasant is the worst crime of all. I take this seriously because it is."
I too know Muslims who are reform and do not agree with the tactics of radical Islam, but even at their smallest percentage of 2.5BN, the radicals, as Duse said, equate to millions - actually, try even a hundred million! All of which want you and me DEAD. Believe them, they mean it!
Embers
This is where you are confused, Ember. The only ones with designs on world domination are those you see in the photographs. Please don't make this a partisan issue. That is what our REAL enemies want. To divide us through childish bickering about partisan politics in an effort to confuse the less informed and hinder them from being able to identify who the REAL enemy is. You know, the ones that want to behead you.
I don't care how much you dislike Bush and his whole Administration, they DO NOT WANT YOU BEHEADED. Start living in the real world. Did you ever think that war might be saving YOUR life?
What i am saying is study the religion a little more. visit this web site: http://www.islam-guide.com/
agian i am not saying you are wrong nor am i saying your right.
For the umpteenth time, these authentic, not faked photos are of wacked-out, hate-filled ISLAMISTS / JIHADISTS. Just by identifying them this way, I have staked out the parameters of the discussion. I'm not talking about ALL Muslims here. I don't think anyone's doing that. If they are, they're extremists as well!
I don't fear Muslims - I fear religious fanatics, Jihadists and the like. Fanatics don't seem to feel any empathy, sympathy or have any compassion for anyone but their fellow cultists. Fanatics, as I've said before, can recognize themselves if they can't be reasoned with, know all they ever need to know, have a closed mind where no other ideas can enter, see the world in black and white (i.e. Things are either all good or all evil.) and believe that anything that conradicts their beliefs is from the devil or some such nonsense.
The people in these photos have crossed a line and advocate outrageous horrors! It's not like this sort of fanatic hasn't made good on these threats - numerous times! I believe them. I take them very seriously. I believe them to be pathalogically misguided but I believe they're determined to see an Infidel-free world - no matter the suffering and grief they cause.
Tiffany states it very well - it's right here in front of our eyes! I'll say again (even though Tiffany repeated it as well) that it doesn't take but a tiny percentage of Muslim fanatics to create havoc and a world of grief. Just because they have delusions of grandeur and are megalomaniacal doesn't mean they're silly and harmless. Au contraire, that's the way every oppressive dictator and regime has thought!
Ramzie, you were given several excellent websites on your post "Answer my question, pls" (http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976810879) by Kenneth Nunn AND a comprehensive answer to your question by Larry O - yet you come here as if you never read those comments or looked at the websites. What gives? Like you, many Muslims here on Gather overwhelmingly seem to think all of us are ignorant about Islam and the Qu'ran. That just isn't so.
BTW, I've seen many insistances where Muslims claim that not only do we, in the West, not know or understand Islam but that we need to become sensative to Muslim's feelings. I'd like to propose the same thing to Muslims vis-a-vis the West. Try to be more sensative and understanding of our viewpoints and feelings. I think most Westerners know that not all Muslims hate us, but it's very alarming, disturbing, frightening and hurtful to see signs like the ones in these photos - carried by Muslims. Ask yourself if these sorts of photos - along with Jihadi terrorist acts - might be responsible for the reaction many Americans have toward Muslims? Right or wrong, it's understandable. To offset this impression, maybe loving, moderate Muslims should show up in force with counter-signs whenever and wherever these nutjobs are protesting!
Humans are such an aggressive species, with so many contradictory impuleses.
Thanks for this excellent article, D!
Many times have I pondered why we humans can't seem to learn from our mistakes. Every totalitarian despot is, eventually, overthrown. Every oppressive regime - religiously or secularly based - ultimately fails. Though it's obvious that such systems don't work, there's always some wackjob wanting to try his hand at it - yet again. We, who ignore these maniacs, do so at our own peril.
Just this once, it would be nice if we could stop the carnage before it has a chance to spread. The black Sudanese Muslims are shades of things to come. The world should be doing everything in its power to stop the Arab government in Khartoum and the Janjaweed! Too much carnage has already occured in Darfur but if we stop it there and help return the refugees to their land, we might have a chance at preventing it everywhere!
Islamists aren't contained within any single country. They're here in the US, they're in Europe, Asia, Africa - everywhere really. They may make up a small percentage of the Muslim world but how many fanatics - hell-bent on an Infidel-free world - does it take to cause devastating destruction?
I really think it's about change - and people have a strong resistance to change. We need to change the way we think about the world, our affect on it and how perceptions can be manipulated so very easily these days. Looking at the people carrying these signs - and the messages on their signs - is a screaming "WAKE UP" call to a sleeping West.
We SO don't want WWIII. I know I don't - but many people think the way to avoid another WW is to ignore the threat, laugh at the silly fanatics and party on. WWIII would be such a buzzkill - it's just easier to flick away the idea like it's a piece of lint on your shoe. (Even when we've seen how quickly and easily Bush started this bogus war in Iraq. If we'd truly wanted to meaningfully address the terrorist threat, we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan!) Personally, I'd like to avoid WWIII by reining in terrorists and stopping the teaching of hate. Here, there and everywehere! (Among other things - but that's another article.)
When we experienced 9/11 and saw what Jihadists were capable of, there should have been a sea-change in the way people thought. However, all that happened was fear took hold and people pulled up the covers even tighter. They looked to the White House and, in essence, said "You take care of this and don't wake me 'till its over". Lots of young, brave, patriotic kids signed up to do battle with the perps but, generally, most people settled back into their lives, thinking "business as usual."
The White House responded by taking huge liberties with our liberties. The kids who'd signed up to fight Al Queda ended up in the middle of a sectarian war - one that's created many more terrorists - exactly the opposite result from the one intended. Those who wanted to ignore or downplay the threat are smugly satisfied to call me an alarmist. Facile but not so. I've looked at much more evidence than these photos or 9/11. When someone can show me credible counter-evidence, I will change my viewpoint.
Change is hard but, since its inevitable, we might want to get out of our comfortable, complacent ruts. There's a lot of hate out there - and too much of it has US in its' bullseye!
Is the hatred rational? No. Does that matter? No. People tend to believe what they want to believe (Just ask any fanatic.) or what they've been taught all their lives to believe (Just ask the kids in the madrases or the kids of neo-Nazis, White Supremacists and various other far-right and far-left wing-nuts.) The small percentage (5%) of Muslims who are Jihadis equals something like 75 million people! That should be enough to get EVERYONE'S attention! Even if the number is only half as many hate-filled seekers of an Infidel-free world, it's still amounts to a VERY impressive army. Halve it again and it's still huge! 18 or 19 million people hell-bent on seeing us all either dead or under Sharia Law is a very disturbing stat! That there are still sane, rational people who are able to trivialize this threat amazes me!
We may still be the most powerful country in the world but that doesn't mean we're invulnerable. Our weapons and tactics are mostly conventional, but Jihadists work unconventionally - and patiently. To put it in pop culture terms - think the Ewoks of Star Wars vs the mighty, technologically superior Empire. For those who didn't see the movie, the simple Ewoks utterly defeated the massive, weapons-superior Empire. In the movei, one of the things in their favor was they had home court advantage. They knew the terrain, they could clearly see their opponents weaknesses. It was a guerrilla war. Sound familiar?
Try reading THIS website if you want a little background on the 'Religion of Peace'.
Jihad Watch
OR
Daniel Pipes
Or
Brigitte Gabriel / American Congress For Truth A MUSLIM crying out for Intelligent Awareness
Or
Debbie Schlussel Dearbornistan and what Muslims are doing here in America. Read about the Wahabi Sect of Saudi Arabia is funding mosques here in US and teaching RADICAL Islam.
I have any number of others you might find of interest but by ALL MEANS read anything by Mark Steyn.
Steyn OnLine
He cites the population figures in Denmark right now shows that in 10 or so years with immigration that it will probably be the FIRST nation to succumb to Shiara Law without a shot fired. In FRANCE the population NOW is 50/50 Muslim/Others under 30 years old, it is unlikely the stuffy French will outbreed the Muslims.
America Alone, Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, The Truth About Muhammad, Obsession are all good Starting Points.
I believe for every positive verse you quote me about the Peace, I give you 10 about Infidels, Dhammi, Smiting Necks, etc.
I LOVE the no 'compulsion in conversion' clause you all like to blather.((Our belief in this respect is what has been taught by Imam Jafar al- Sadiq (the sixth successor/grandson of Prophet): There is no compulsion (by God) and no relinquishing the authority (of God);))
I saw that when Steve Centini and Oleg (Fox Newsman and cameraman) were kidnapped in Palestine and converted at the "point of a gun". Praise Jesus they have been converted to Ours or I would have been beheaded - See Daniel Pearl, Johnson, and the screaming Nick Burg having his head sawed off in a video so kindly provided for our gleeful consumption on the internet (I NEVER saw nor will I).
Canada NOW has Shariah (Divine Laws) in Muslim Courts - They just are forbidden to amputate little girls' clitoris For Now. No mention of Honor Killings and the Stoning or hanging of girls that cry rape and can't produce 4 MALE witnesses, she's then guilty of adultary or unbecoming behavior of a proper young girl (see and article about Shiariah Law in Iran I wrote to Rosie O'Donnel).
Paris is burning EVERY night in Muslim youths uprising - fly into DeGaulle airport and get a rental car and tell them you'll be parking it on the street during your stay; then call a cab.
"You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut, Aden and Mogadishu." Osama in fatwah to US in 1996!
I understand the wholesale ethnic cleansing by Muslims throughout the world to eliminate the infidels. See Darfur.
I understand the Jewish people facing 60 years of suicide bombers by Muslims that somehow justify the random blowing up of innocents.
I understand the filter of the MSM to vilify this great nation to serve an agenda of Bush haters. And empower the Jihadists.
I understand the millions in this nation that fail to recognize, let alone consider, the impending collapse of Europe by Muslim imigration and violence.
I understand the millions of Americans that refuse to acknowledge any threat here, all the Muslims they know are nice, quiet folks being demonized (like a Gacy or Dommer).
I understand those that believe Osama is the head of the snake and if we cut it off, the little band of bad-guys will just go away.
I understand those here that believe we just let the Jews get driven into the sea, Arab nations won't be pissed at us anymore.
I understand that as long as that next beer is handy, it's not really their concern or problem.
And so on and on. See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil of Islam or they kill a few nuns, burn a town, issue a death threat against the Pope or piss and moan for a month or so over a cartoon for cripes sake. Shut up and dust off your Koran.
We should not be insulting each other's religions.
Evil has its own religion, it is not Christian, it is not Muslim, it is not Buddist, it is not Hindu or Jewish. It is extremist and it lurks amongst every Religion.
Grateful 1 makes many valid points - although I believe he thinks all liberals are like you, William - politically correct to a fault. (I am a liberal who sees the Jihadi problem on the same page as he.) We must not tolerate murderers. We must not give a pass to those who are intractably intolerant. The people carrying these signs are calling for a "real" holocaust - as if to say, compared to the one in Germany, we ain't seen nothin' yet! These people are carrying signs, on the streets of London, threatening beheadings! This is utterly unacceptable - no matter WHAT their grievances!
When Islamists / Jihadists cease their desire for an "Infidel"-free world, lose their ambitions for world domination (i.e. worldwide oppression under Sharia Law) and renounce violence, especially in the name of Allah, I'll worry about affording them respect.
Fanatics should not be given the same respect you'd give to others of faith. If a fanatic murders, steals, or spews hatred, they will never get my respect - and they shouldn't get yours.
I notice that my rating has gone down again. I'm sorry but I see nothing defensible in these photos and it alarms me that some of you try anyway. What the hell are you thinking? (And for those who missed it either in the main article or in my numerous comments, I know, acknowledge, agree, understand perfectly that there are many good, peace loving, tolerant Muslims in this world. This article and others I've published here are not about those Muslims! They're about the wacko, hate-filled, violence loving Fundamentalist Extremist Muslims - the ones we all should fear because they have no problem with the idea of killing millions upon millions of people. Any infidel is fair game to these people because they think they're fixing the world - cleansing it of non-believers - for God. Never mind that to us, this notion is completely bass-ackward - fanatic extemist Muslim mentality says they're actually doing us a favor by killing us because killing us is better than letting us worship God improperly!
Go ahead and defend this behavior at your own peril. There IS a limit to what qualifies as religious freedom. Genocide, mass murder, oppression (The infidels they don't kill will be reduced to dhimmitude, a second-class subservience one must pay for to stay alive.) are not my idea of valid, legitimate religious pursuits. Oh yeah, FYI, Global Warming is real too!
Methinks there are reasonable Muslims - I've encountered them. You should check out Nonie Darwish's website and follow links she has there. www.noniedarwish.com
I've heard her speak and she is definitely reasonable - and not alone. Her father was a founding member of the PLO and assassinated by the Israelis. Even given that background, she has a book out: "Now They Call Me Infidel, Why I renounced Jihad"
There are also reasonable Muslims in the film "Obsession: Radical Islam's War With the West" They provide the counterpoint and their first-hand knowledge to the film. One of those is a former terrorist.
Yeah, these voices are a distinct minority right now, but they do, indeed, exist.
i don't agree with everything on the photo. But you must understand that they do not speak for all the muslims. yes there will be corrupted muslims but there are corrupted christians. look back in history and see what the christian belief has done to this world. not just the crusade but when the western world use to be a strong christian in belief.
And please stop saying terrorist! it is just giving the wrong message to the world! if you use the word terrorist it gives an image of a religious group of people who cant even hold a gun right. For example al-qaeda. people view al-qaeda as stupid people. when in fact they are smarter then US troops!!Note: i don't support in al-qaeda i am just saying.
Again, it seems you haven't read a single word I or anyone else has said. If you look back just a few comments you'll see that I said for the UMPTEENTH time ((sigh)): "I know, acknowledge, agree, understand perfectly that there are many good, peace loving, tolerant Muslims in this world. This article and others I've published here are not about those Muslims! They're about the wacko, hate-filled, violence loving Fundamentalist Extremist Muslims - the ones we all should fear because they have no problem with the idea of killing millions upon millions of people. Any infidel is fair game to these people because they think they're fixing the world - cleansing it of non-believers - for God. Never mind that to us, this notion is completely bass-ackward - fanatic extremist Muslim mentality says they're actually doing us a favor by killing us because killing us is better than letting us worship God improperly!"
Ramzie, if you're going to criticize, you've got to present your case with evidence. If you don't read the discussion, it's useless. You never answer anyone's post to you so I expect you'll do the same here.
By the way, God doesn't care what name is used when entreating or praying or thanking or blessing. You say Allah, I say God, others say Jehovah, or Krishna, or Gaia. Why do you care so much what faithful people call God? You do know that those who say, "my way or no way" are fanatics by definition. Are you and you're friends, relatives, imams fanatics Ramzie?
For the record, yes, Christianity used to behave like Islam is doing now. (That's partly because Islam is very young and hasn't figured it out yet.) Christians evolved to see that path was wrong and ceased killing or banishing "Infidels" (Jews, Muslims and heretics). I don't like fanatics but I don't fear Christian fanatics because I know the WORST will be a loud exchange of words. I fear Muslim fanatics - fanatics, Jihadists, Islamists, extremists, however you want to say it - because they'd just as soon kill me as look at me. Talk is not what they're interested in. Once they know I'll never be one of them, that's it!
If you, Ramzie, are a reasonable Muslim, and you have every faith your fellow Muslims won't harm you (Why should they? Yours is a religion of peace, after all!), then gather your fellow moderates and take back your religion! Of course, you and I know it's dangerous for you to do such a thing. If you're a moderate, that should alarm you! If you're a fanatic, yourself, parading as a moderate here, then you're part of the problem. Go ahead and prove your precepts to us all, Ramzie - we'll respect you for that. (If your a fanatic, though, you won't be interested in our respect!)
Finally, go back and read ALL the discussion here - you might learn something!
My second thought was, "What the hell are they thinking?" That was followed shortly after by "Oh yeah, it's the oil." As I've said before, follow the money. In this invasion, who REALLY benefitted? Dick Cheney. Halliburton not only got multi-million dollar, no-bid contracts from a government run by its former CEO, it plans to take that money to Dubai to stiff the government on the taxes - oh, so patriotic. Money-theists don't care who or how many they have to hurt in their pursuit of money. It's, I repeat, my definition of evil: The good of the one (or the few) at the expense of the many.
You said in a comment, "Ask yourself if these sorts of photos - along with Jihadi terrorist acts - might be responsible for the reaction many Americans have toward Muslims? Right or wrong, it's understandable. To offset this impression, maybe loving, moderate Muslims should show up in force with counter-signs whenever and wherever these nutjobs are protesting!"
That's one thing that we've been discussion. I maintain that when we have crazy, off-the-wall or fanatic Christians, we denounce them. And sometimes rather loudly. But you just don't see that being done by Muslims. If you get them up against the wall, they'll agree, but most don't voice their objections very loudly. Most likely they're just as afraid of the fanatics as we are.
And rightly so. There was one Muslim spiritual leader I saw on TV who, in addition to talking about killing the infidels, also mentioned killing any supposed Muslims who did not join their forces or did not also try to kill the infidels.
Of course, it's very easy to put the lie to this claim when you look at Darfur. Here we had Arab slaughterers controlled by Arabs in Khartoum killing and raping fellow Muslims for the "crime" of being black Africans. It's clear to see that the Arab north is interested in having an Arab-only Sudan. This is not ethnic cleansing - it's racial cleansing.! The Arab government has now moved Arab refugees from Chad into the villages left vacant by their genocide. The Darfur refugees - those who fled - are still hoping to return to their villages. Imagine their woe in seeing those villages occupied by Arab refugees! Call me crazy, but it looks to me like the Arabs in Sudan are racist.
Just as a reminder to the world - many Arabs keep black Africans as slaves - right now, today! If we're really concerned about human rights, our voices need to be raised against this practice - wherever it is occuring! Slavery is all too common in some parts of this world and it's ALL deplorable. If people need domestic help, let them contract and pay for it. Slavery is as unacceptable today as it was in ancient times. Where once it was considered acceptable and necessary, we've evolved to see that it is neither. Why do many Arabs keep slaves? (Please don't write me about the black Africans who enslave other black Africans. All slavery is immoral and any person or group engaged in it provides NO pass for anyone else to do it!) You already know the answer. The more interesting question is why would any black person (or brown) be attracted to Islam, given what is happening in Darfur? How does an Imam justify or explain why the all-inclusive "brother" Muslims are attacking a peaceful Muslim population? Can people really this blind? Well, I guess it's still true that none are so blind as those who refuse to see.