He Deserves Better

Too much live is the problem It's love, Clay.

Then why do you keep coming back? How about "going" back?

Finally, he looks away, sighs, maybe he wants to understand. Why the hell do you keep hurting him?" Where does the quotation begin?

He deserves better. She can't handle too much. Once again, I have a problem with cliped sentences. I'd agree to reverse the order as Clay suggests, but I'd try this: Love: she can't handle too much, and he deserves better. That's a gross invasion on your prose, forgive me, but it made for an example of a longer sentence.

Umm, I think Clay and Dannielle have this under control. Good job folks. Oh, you too Sandy ;-)

I fixed too much love and added the missing open quotation. This is different for me. I'm trying to play around with new things, so I will take some time with your other suggestions and see what else comes before making any other changes.

(plus, I've noticed the stories with incomplete sentences and thoughts are always rated higher than mine, and thought I'd see how it works for me)

Sandy, I loved the depth of the story. It is age old. Good men with horrid women. I got, I got it and I Loved it!! Live or Love, it's all groovy to me.

Or maybe it's a good woman with a horrid man?

April's interpretation is closest to mine. She isn't a horrible woman, since she doesn't want to hurt him and keeps trying to make it right, just can't return as much as he gives.

You captured the emotion of the scene very well in the dialogue

Thank you, Kelly. My goal was to tell as possible through dialogue.

Sandy, this writing caught me by surprise. I had to read it a couple of times to be sure I was understanding it. I got lost in the dialogue and forgot who was speaking. Once I did grasp it, I saw the woman as insufficient emotionally; not quite horrible yet also not pure good.

Very real dialog. I agree with Clay on "Probably not soon enough to save his broken heart." not fitting, though. The content is interesting. Reading through this was a pleasure.

I ran into a little hiccup at the beginning because I thought the conversation was between two women, then I saw "he loses the attitude". I had to go back and re-read to be sure I understood what was happening.

Funny little side-note. "I deserve better" is what my ex told me. Might as well've hit me in the face with a brick.

I did the same as R. Scott.......At first I thought it was two women talking.
Good job Sandy, don't change it too much

Sandy, I agree with some of the above - "Someday. Probably not soon enough to save his broken heart" might be better as "Someday. Maybe. Possibly."

and I disagree with others - I love short choppy sentences. Especially in dialog. They are real. When you throw in a lot of ands and buts, it is cumbersome.

Excellent piece. The emotion on all three (him, her, and the absent other) is intense and believable.

I liked it. My impression was that you were trying to push it to the wall - too much of too much. Judging from the groups you posted it to, I think you were trying to make it be something that has a surface of angst, but underneath there is something else. It sounded like one of those Mexican soap operas where I don't understand what they are saying, but their emotions are played out 'too much of too much' and then a teddy bear explodes and kills the gardener.

If this wasn't what you were getting at then I take everything back and blame it on my allergies and hives. :)

Sandy do we get a happy ending or what???????????????????

Sorry, Sandy. No secret: I despise reading conversations. Must be the flurry of little quotidian marks making the story look like it's caught a rash.

I also loathed the female lead and tried to will her off the page.

But I did love the brevity! Thanks, sweety!

I love reading conversations! It tells more about the characters than just descriptive narratives, I think...

I'm with EB, I didn't like the female lead either... must be because she was too emotional and cried too much? But she's lucky to have such a straight-shooting man talking to her. We should all have good friends like him.

I think I've studied this enough to respond. I do appreciate the comments on this article – very much – because this generated discussion both about the writing and the story, and I enjoy that. In one respect, I failed miserably with this, but in doing so, I learned the risk of leaving too much room for reader interpretation. I let the readers bring their own experiences, filters, biases, etc. into my story, and consequently few saw this the way I did. I will explain this through my eyes and if anyone is interested in helping me understand what I could have done differently (while still keeping it as lean as possible) to make that clearer, I will appreciate the input.

Most interesting to me is that the gender of the challenger mattered to some. He was her husband's best friend in my mind, but he could have been her best friend, his father, her father, their son. I thought it was obvious that this guy cared about both the husband and wife, but was more concerned about the husband.

I'll insert my notes below:

She releases her hair, lets it fall over her face, stalls, wants to escape his eyes. He holds the pressure, refuses to smile, obviously expects an answer. "I've tried, I've done everything possible to push him away." if she was a bitch, wouldn't she have just left him?

"I really don't deserve this pain, either." Was that defensive, or pitiful? She replays, analyzes, can't decide. "I don't want to be this way." no compassion for her? She admits she is at fault and doesn't want to have whatever problem she has.

Tears. Always tears when she wants them least. "Don't be sorry. I tell him the same." I don't think she would have cried here unless she cared about her husband. I thought her not wanting to let this guy see her cry showed she had strength, or pride, or some redeeming quality at work.

"Then why do you keep coming back? You confuse him. Give him hope." I've thought about this and think changing coming to going would change the meaning. Coming says she is with her husband now. I also think it says the guy she's talking to considers himself part of their lives, and he is close to both of them.

"You really don't get it." Screw the tears. She glares back through the steady stream. I wanted this to say she wants this guy to see and share her pain now, almost like a plea for understanding

Finally, he looks away, sighs, maybe he wants to understand. (re: last statement - and he does we and care, but he's frustrated "Why the hell do you keep hurting him?"

"I always think I can do it this time. One more chance and I'll get it right. But I don't." no sympathy for her? I thought she must love him if she keeps coming back hoping she can make it work, and poor her because she can't get it right – poor both of them

"Someday. Probably not soon enough to save his broken heart." major failure for me. I thought this was the turning point. She gets it – he is breaking and she isn't learning fast enough to stop that.

He acts human, places his hands on her shoulders, and he sees that she finally gets it, and he does care about her enough that he wants to touch her now and pleads with his eyes. "Let him go." but he's still looking out for his guy

Her throat closes. She nods. she'll do it but it hurts to much to say

She closes her eyes, doesn't care about the tears that continue to pour, nods again. I truly thought this showed she was in pain and this was a tough decision

and then She dies inside, whispers, "Promise."

His hug feels sincere. She walks away, buries her love deeper there's the problem – she can't let hers show. He deserves better. She can't handle too much. I agree, the last two sentences should be reversed

I haven't written this as much to defend myself, as to let you know what I'm thinking so you can tell me what I could have written to make you see what I wanted you to see.

"Then why do you keep coming back? You confuse him. Give him hope." I've thought about this and think changing coming to going would change the meaning. Coming says she is with her husband now. I also think it says the guy she's talking to considers himself part of their lives, and he is close to both of them.

Sandy, I read this the same way you wrote it, all the way through, but I still liked "going", for this reason: for me, "coming" in that sentence meant she was coing to see this other guy and carried with it the implication that she was coming over to start a relationship with the man she was talking to -- running to him, starting something with him -- which put an entirely new twist on it.

Use of "going" showed me this woman returning to a third person or place -- the husband, or their home. It kept the man more neutral, more a friend of the husband. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents on that one.

Sorry -- broken fingernail. In my second paragraph, above, "coing" is supposed to be coming (Wanted to clarify, since it could have been "going" just as easily.)

Sandy: Ditto Gretel Monster's WOW.

This was amazing. I loved the dialogue. I think the comments here are interesting, but I, personally, did not find the piece confusing. I think you are right on target with your comment, "I let the readers bring their own experiences, filters, biases, etc. into my story, and consequently few saw this the way I did." Don't we really all do this? I don't think it's a bad thing that readers saw this differently than you may have intended. I'm not sure you can change that, and that's okay.

I understand the female character's pain. I felt she was trying to do the right thing but didn't know how. Some readers may think her selfish, but I feel differently. My favorite line of hers: "I always think I can do it this time. One more chance and I'll get it right." So poignant and piercing.

Thanks. Keep doing this.

I agree that the piece is good as is. I understood each person's role, and I felt the emotions. I think those who were confused were trying too hard. That's one of the problems with asking for critique - people super-analyze.

In my mind it is very clear what is happening here. The husband loves her and wants her, she loves him back but hurts him in spite of herself. The friend sees it clearly and wants her to break the cycle. She knows it's the right thing to do, but it's killing her.

I was able to empathize with all three.

RE: my earlier comment on "Someday. Probably not soon enough to save his broken heart" - I merely felt that these words would not flow naturally from her mouth, but that is my opinion only. The rest of it felt very "real".

Follows the guideline of simple story, complex characters. Works for me.
I was not confused. I see this couple as immature (obviously!) and trying to create an unattainably *ideal* mate from a naturally flawed one. The woman is self-loathing at core and cannot respect the man who idealizes her. The man, unwilling to forego his dream, keeps allowing the locus of his fantasy to try and kill the dream. They are both still in love with the person they hoped the partner would be, while unable to live with the person the partner *is*.

Scott: your anecdote reminds me of the football scene in 'When Harry Met Sally'. Harry relates to his friend (played by the late and lamented Bruno Kirby) his ex-wife's kiss-off line, 'I never really loved you'. The writer-friend says, 'That's harsh. I know dialogue and that is particularly harsh.'
'I deserve better' is particularly harsh. To focus on what one *deserves* is to focus on what one can take for granted.

Sandy, What you're trying to accomplish is hard. The way it reads, the sympathy for the woman that you want to achieve doesn't come accross to me. Actually, there is almost an opposite affect. May just be me, but the way it reads leads me to side with the friend.
You are a "less detail is better" writer, and I lean towards "more detail is better", so my suggestions may not work for you.
Perhaps point of view would help. Written strictly from her point of view. Also, I would devote a little more to what she is thinking. I think you can still leave some open interpretation and at the same time, steer the reader's thinking toward your intent.

The story is fine as it is, though. Some tweaking. What I'm suggesting is almost a complete re-write, and I'd only do that if it is that important that the reader understand her point of view.


Peg. Thanks, I'll remember that movie-line whenever that evil little phrase creeps up. Makes me laugh.

I felt I was reading an extract from a longer story Sandy. It is well written and I thought the chopped off sentences worked, I also saw the male voice here as some kind of counsellor rather than a friend. He certainly isn't a friend of the absent male lover, a true friend would take him out, get him rat - arsed and say "if its screwing you up like this, forget here; plenty more fish in the sea." (Well we would in Britain because we are not all in thrall to shrinks and therapists) and if he is a friend of the woman he would say "look, you keep falling for his lost puppy act. Move on, the guy's a loser. He can't accept the relastionship is over so he uses emotional blackmail to persuade you to go back then he messes your head up again with all that intensity and self obssession. " OK, I'm filling a lot in that you didn't write. Which shows you had my interest.

I liked the flow of the dialogue.

I read it one time and understood. I like the dialogue, and I like her too. Along with her obvious faults, she has redeeming qualities.

1) I also started off thinking that the conversation was between two women, and then found myself distracted by wondering who the guy is. It's probably not important to the story, but I did keep wondering why this man feels that he can speak to her this way, and why she takes it from him.

2) I was rather interested by the stage direction (that was how the non-dialogue struck me) that he "acts human." I didn't think he was acting inhumanly prior to this line. He is forceful, and he is clear, and he is honest. Then again, considering most of the people I know, perhaps those qualities are becoming less and less "human" as time goes by. His action of touching her seemed manipulative to me . . . he is trying to get to her by adopting a style of communication he thinks she will more readily understand.

3) Although I felt impatient with the female character, I really despised the absent guy up with whom the other character is encouraging her to break. Pull up your bootstraps and walk, pal! This woman is the emotional equivalent of quicksand. I can see that she is suffering, but I just don't care. This is far more about me having had this kind of girlfriend than it is about your writing.

4) Congratulations on getting so many opinionated reactions. Indifference is the most painful form of criticism, don't you think?

Checking in to thank everyone for the new comments, and to say that I've printed all of them and am still thinking. Also, this discussion excites me.

>this discussion excites me.

Careful, Granny.

Reads like a story you have personally lived.

Come on, Peg. I need all the excitement I can get. I know I'm weird, but I do enjoy knowing how others read. If I want to be a successful writer, I think that is extremely important.

Deen, I have lived a version of this. I want to use it in a novel, where the reader will know the characters and story leading up to the scene. This exercise will hopefully help me know what I need to do with the female character to make the reader sympathetic to her situation.

David - absolutely YES to this - Indifference is the most painful form of criticism, don't you think?

Nancy summed my feelings up pert well here:
"In my mind it is very clear what is happening here. The husband loves her and wants her, she loves him back but hurts him in spite of herself. The friend sees it clearly and wants her to break the cycle. She knows it's the right thing to do, but it's killing her.

I was able to empathize with all three."
I was annoyed with all the crying. I know you are really good at implying things without stating them, so how about it? Have her do something that indicates the tears without my having to want to slap her.
Love you honey bunny.

I get to be honey bunny! (I think other people might be calling me ugly names around here today) Thank you, What Nonsense. I can definately work on the crying. That will be an easier fix than the other problems.

You are my ONLY honey bunny, and it comes from Pulp Fiction, so you know it's deep.

make that "without my wanting to slap her" I hope it is ok to comment on comments.

Are you going to be terribly disappointed in me if I tell you I'll have to ask my daughter to interpret the pulp fiction meaning? And yes, you can comment on comments. I'm going to add to my comment and say I appreciate that you were able to empathize with all three. That's what I was shooting for.

Sandy this is a new style for you I think. It's interesting...more like a movie dialogue. I like it...but I always enjoy your stories. Nice job.

Ferrero, yes, this is different for me. I always strive for uncluttered but this is bare. I'm glad you liked it.

The comments and your response are very informative and interesting.

I read this three days in a row, wondering what I was thinking.

The man she is having the conversation with puzzled me. Lover and friend of the husband?

I finally decided this. The husband doesn't love her; he loves what he wants her to be.
She knows it is impossible.
She actually loves him, and keeps trying to be that impossible being he desires.

I stopped worrying about whom she is having the conversation with, but the conversation is believable.

A new twist from Cena - the woman is involved with the guy she's having the conversation with. I like that. I hoped someone would think he was her father-in-law, or maybe even the husband's lover, but those must be too far out there. I'm flattered that you have read this three times, Cena.

I finally decided that he must be her brother, or the husband's (platonic) best friend.

As with any piece, there aren't "problems" to be "fixed". There are opportunities to be explored. If you never did another thing with this, it would still be a success, because it provoked reactions. Specific reactions, not just "Good!"

I realize that sounds fatuous, but I actually mean it quite sincerely. I think it's important that artists maintain a balance between improvement and self-criticism. If you're really a writer, and of course you are, nothing will ever be "fixed" to your satisfaction . . . and it certainly isn't possible to fix it to please everyone.

I kept thinking about this piece all day . . . there's something about it that got under my skin. I don't know why.

I believe it is her father whom she loves and respects. She is torn between leaving and staying. A choice she is unable to make at this time. She returns to her husband because he's a lot like her father in all the bad ways.

There is a very sick little boy playing here and he has left a dirty diaper behind.

N.C. - get a life.

Sorry, guys. I don't think Nintendo/Kirby has the smarts to do this on his own.

Nintendo Cube, I am shocked and disgusted that anyone would behave this way. You have some serious mental issues and you need help. If Gather does not do something about you, and soon, I will be leaving this site as well. This is beyond harrassment.

Sandy - When I first read this, I thought it was a lover trying to convince his mistress to leave her husband. After reading your comments I can see the many possibilities of the male voice, but I have to admit, whoever he is, I really was left feeling no respect for the husband, and annoyed with the male speaker for interfering. You did engage me emotionally in the dialogue, and that is probably the highest praise I can give to a writer.

Thank you, Ferrero, Gretel, Nancy, and Tonia. I appreciate the feedback very much, Tonia.

"helpful critiquing" is what Sandy has been talking about all along. Many of us love to write, and wish to learn and improve.

Sandy, I think that the fact that people read this piece differently is a compliment. You told enough to get us interested... Now if this becomes part of a larger work, then the ambiguity will not be there. It can work either way.

Debra, this might be the most enjoyable writing experience I've had on Gather. I learn from hearing how others read or what people look for or want in a story. I hope others are interested in having more discussions about the writing process.

Nancy, I think I like the ambiguity in the short piece and might try to do another one - unless I quit ;-)

a good read but too dense to quite grasp at a first read
this is both a criticism and a compliment
I enjoyed my first go
became a bit alarmed at a second read
then reassured on my third careful disection
("Make him hate you so he can move on." seems to act as an emotional pivot at the end of the tale )

Debra, some of us used to critique this way. I did line-by-line edits on some. A lot of people took that as an "attack" and informed us they did not want to be writers (they just want us to read what they half-ass write). I've practically begged for critique, so it's safe for anyone to come to my articles and do this. Some of us know the others are interested. I would love to see more of what happened with this thread, because I learn from this.

Liz, thanks. I haven't decided what I'm going to do with this yet. I get so 'attached' to my work that it's hard to make immediate changes unless they are simple things. I have to let more intensive critiques sit a while, study them, detach from my original, and then rewrite. I've enjoyed this and appreciate the input and discussion.

Jim, this wasn't on your list! But I'm glad you're here. You don't like emotional pivots? hmmm.. see the comment above this one - I'll be thinking about it ;-)

Sandy, I think your dialogue rang true and your message was clear and relatable. You humanize her without sentimentality and no pity is felt for the characters. We're kept at a reasonable distance so we can clearly see this as a commebtary on emasculating women who try as they might, can't properly love. I have been this person so it really struck a chord. Thank you and thanks for all your kindness and generousity in my time of need. My heart goes out to you in your difficult transitional period and my thoughts are with you my dear....

Thanks, Anthony and Amanda. If I were to use this in a novel, I would hope to develop the characters and give the reader enough background to deliver the message I want the reader to receive. However, I have learned that no matter how much detail I give, reader still filter through their own experiences. This discussion has been helpful in learning how much I would have to give if I want the reader to see it 'my way'.

Amanda, I appreciate the personal note, also. You are an extremely generous person.

Sandy, I found the dialogue believable and sad.... also the internal dialogue was completely plausible and probable.... Like the way your characters spoke in the incomplete sentences, like folks truly do.

Thanks, Cat. I appreciate that very much. I used to be terrified of dialogue but actually enjoy writing it now. I found a good book that explained the difference between writing it real and making it feel real in terms that finally made sense to me. It 'feels' more natural to me now, so it's rewarding to get positive feedback and think I might be on the right track.

Sandy,
I truly liked this from beginning to end. There are a couple of ways, from reading the comments that people can interpret this - mine was of a friend of both the man and woman, trying to tell her that she's hurting his friend and it's got to stop.
I didn't dislike her character, I felt more that she was doing her best and it wasn't good enough, and this mutual friend is trying to tell her that it's not. Sometimes in real life our best isn't good enough, so it made perfect sense to me.
Loved the story! I got it the first time :)

Thank you, Marilyn. I agree that sometimes our best isn't good enough. I think it takes strength, generosity, and honesty for a person to admit that and do what is best for everyone concerned.

HI Sandy, thanks for sharing this with me. I really liked your story and gave it a 10 and judging by the number of comments you have on this article, there is sure a lot of interest. It's a great thing to be able to get people interested. :)

Thank you, Luna. I appreciate you for coming to read, and for your kind comment.

As you might have noticed, many comments are missing and others who commented are not around any more. There did used to be interest in writing and discussions like this one, before it became 'elitist' to care about such things, or to put thought into comments.