Crossposted from STOP The ACLU
McCain and company continue to pitch for terrorists to be afforded Geneva Convention rights. Now it looks like the pressure is being felt by the White House and they have proposed a compromise. I hope McCain realizes that he is destroying his chances if he ever runs for president. But even more, his argument against Bush's proposal in the long run does the opposite of what he claims to want. It doesn't protect those fighting this war, it ties their hands. Of course if we were following the Geneva Conventions properly they wouldn't even apply to terrorist. We have our Supreme Court to thank for "interpreting" those rights to our current enemy. Nevertheless, with our hand forced on that, leaving this broad article of the Geneva Convention open for interpretation and not clarifying exactly what they can and can not do when interrogating terrorists leaves those fighting the war out their vulnerable. I can see the ACLU now suing CIA officials for grabbing some terrorist's shirt roughly. McCain and company's "higher moral ground" argument is ridiculous.
John Hawkins hits the nail on the head:
Exactly what protections are our troops being provided by the Geneva Convention? No enemy we've ever fought or are fighting has abided by it. So, in real world terms, the Geneva Convention provides no protection for our troops whatsoever. If we completely withdrew from the Geneva Convention tomorrow, it would have no impact at all on how our troops are treated.
Granted, the Geneva Convention could be of use in the unlikely event that we were to get into a war with Belgium, Italy, Spain or some other Western European nation. However, isn't the argument we're hearing from Europeans and American liberals that we should treat the terrorists we've captured by the rules of the Geneva Convention (as a matter of fact, better than the rules require) despite the fact that they haven't signed onto the treaty? Since that's the case, why wouldn't the same rules apply to any signatories of the treaty that we fought with? Even if, theoretically, we were doing something as evil as kicking their captured soldiers into industrial paper shredders for fun, shouldn't they give our soldiers every benefit the Geneva Convention requires?
What's that, you say? If we don't do it for their soldiers, why should we expect them to treat our troops with respect? Great! Now why doesn't that apply to our troops and Al-Qaeda? If Al-Qaeda is torturing and murdering our troops, why should we treat their captured prisoners as well as, say, American soldiers that are thrown into the brig? Why should we treat some terrorist from Saudi Arabia who wants to kill American citizens like he's a uniformed soldier who follows the rules of war or worse yet, like he has the same constitutional rights as an American citizen?




Comments: 19
Fortunately the House has passed the President's proposed legislation, setting up a confrontation between the two houses of Congress. The McCain cabal will not get what it wants, but we will remember if the Senator from Arizona decides to run for President in 2008.
It seems likely that the US will have future military action. Those like McCain and Powell (unlike Cheny and Bush) with combat experience know that rejecting the Geneva Conventions will provide precedent for the treatment of US POWs in future military actions. (I'd say "wars," but Texas presidents seem to be able to go to war and occupy a whole country without Congress declaring war.)
Even the Nazis heeded the rules (at least on the western front), and haven't you heard w. say the US doesn't torture anyone?
Listen to the guys who has been to the war (Senators McCain, Warner, and Lindsay Graham and General Powell). Its funny to hear all of those people who has never served in the military but making the policy of torture and scream about how it will protect our troops and people overseas.
As for me, I belong to the "Friends of Intelligence That Protects The American People" group.
Terrorists are not even represented by a nation that can sign the Geneva Convention, and have shown no intent to observe it. The GC frowns on beheading, in case you hadn't noticed.
Having served 25 years in our military, I totally agree with Bush as will most military people.
Torture is defined as "infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion". That is not what we did when interrogating KSM, director of the 9/11 attack, who in the process gave us info critical to interrupting further attacks.
Even our police could not live by the Geneva Convention rule without detailed guidance and they are all given the precise guidance they need. Why is McCain et al refusing to do so??
I think that McCain has lost it or his being in captivity had a significant effect on his mental capacity. I have no clue of what Powell, Warner and Graham's excuse would be. They sound like the ACLU.
The whole thing is absurd, stupid and unsafe for us citizens.
Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"
Bush said - "I think -- tide turning -- see, as I remember -- I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of -- it's easy to see a tide turn -- did I say those words?" --George W. Bush, asked if the tide was turning in Iraq, Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006
This is terrible. I can't believe they would do that. Especially the Chili Peppers part, I would talk if I had to listen to more than three songs in a row.
The techniques sought by the CIA are:
induced hypothermia;
forcing suspects to stand for prolonged periods;
sleep deprivation;
a technique called "the attention grab" where a suspect's shirt is forcefully seized;
the "attention slap" or open hand slapping that hurts but does not lead to physical damage;
the "belly slap";
and sound and light manipulation.
The facts are, that coercion is effective when used by a trained operative. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the planner of the 9/11 attacks, is a tough guy, and ordinary interviewing techniques were not successful in his case. But, after a few sessions of waterboarding by skilled CIA operatives, he gave up details of several planned attacks that saved thousands of American lives. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was not physically harmed.
I can't believe that any rational person would sacrifice those lives because of "the moral highground", "moral authority", or political advantage. The safety of my grandchildren is a reality transcends theoretical concepts and politics.
What is it about 9/11, the USS Cole, our two embassies in Africa, and the Marine barracks in Beirut that you don't understand?
I don't know about you, but I have four grandchildren that I care very much about.
I don't want "stupid young guys who were in the wrong place at the wrong time" trying to kill them like they have killed innocent civilians in Israel, Iraq, Lebanon, Germany, Spain, England, Thailand, etc., etc.
I'm not advocating anything here except the fact, that how we treat enemy prisoners will have no bearing on how ours will be treated, whether signatories or not to the treaty. Vietnam was a signatory to the accords by the way.
They are outdated, unenforceable, and the complete process needs to be reviewed by the world as a whole with today's realities, including punishment for not following them.