Seeing as so many on the Pro-Criminal Illegal Alien side of the equation here on Gather want to accuse us LAW AND ORDER folks of being insentitive racist bigots, thought I would create a special article where they could come to and rant and rave about how UNFAIR we are to state FACTS. We all know how it goes.
1. I think Illegal Aliens are breaking our laws...they shout back...You are a RACIST, you HATE BROWN PEOPLE!
2. We need to secure our Southern Border with Mexico, and put armed troops on the border as a first step in dealing with the out of control tzunami of Illegal Aliens coming into America from Mexico...they shout back...What about the Northern Border? You are a racist, YOU HATE BROWN PEOPLE.
I could go on, but we all know the drill. So, rather than have the rabid hatred and anger of the Pro Illegal Trolls messing up intelligent conversation, thought it would be easier to provide them with this article to which they can post all the anger they want, they can toss all their links trying to MOVE THE CONVERSATION to their PRO ILLEGAL slanted articles RIGHT HERE.
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I've posted reliable links to verifiable information, and they turn around and say....your information is suspect, comes from a Pro Enforcement White Supremist Site...fact that the site is PRO LEGAL IMMIGRATION seems irrelevant to them.
So, thought they would enjoy accessing this space to place their gripes in.
For starters, Americans through our taxes are going to be asked to contribute trillions to the rebuilding of Mexico's infrastructure, as will the citizens of Canada, though to a lessor degree. Further, our borders will literally become nothing more than lines on a map, and our laws would be superceded by the laws of the Union which will have their own courts. Lastly, we Americans will be expected to tighten our belts, and learn to do without for a generation while Mexico's standard of living is brought up to a par with ours....it's UGLY, very very UGLY.
You Said: "Many Native American Indians complain that the more than 250 million ancestors of Pilgrims have taken jobs that would have otherwise gone to the ancestors of Native American Indians and, more important, by increasing the supply of labor lower average wages, at least in labor markets in which the ancestors of Pilgrims, who came to this country illegally, are concentrated.
Translated from Iroquois: "What bothers me more than anything is that the Pilgrims came here and didn't learn how to speak in a Native American tongue" says Nantan, an Iroquois Indian. "This is not England, so why do they insist on speaking English?"
I'm with you on that one...That's why I'm doing all I can to keep it from happenning AGAIN!!!
William Gheen's open letter to the North Carolina Associated Press
Most North Carolinians still have no idea how dire the situation has become due to the negligence of the gate keepers at the Associated Press (AP). For reasons unknown, AP has not told the whole state many important events and have certainly not connected the dots for our citizens.
Released 12/8/2005
by William Gheen
President, Americans for Legal Immigration PAC
We know that the AP is censoring critical information about illegal immigration, NC Licenses, and crimes committed by illegals for several reasons. One, our statewide volunteer groups monitor local press and two, we monitor how news does and does not travel on the Google news engine.
This does not seem like an individual sympathetic with the lives of the millions he wishes to cast out of the country. So how could this organization be considered unbiased at all.
For starters, the site is a fabulous resource site no matter which side of the issue you are on. There are more articles on topic on this site than anywhere else out on the net, everything gathered together in one place. With over 23 Million site visits since the sites creation, it is obvious it is a go to space for those wanting to learn about, or find articles about immigration reform.
ALIPAC's membership includes people from every walk of life, from every ethnic background.
The site's founding purpose was Legal Immigration, but if you go through their boards, you will find there have been some debates wherein both sides had their say, which is not something you can say about the Pro-Illegal Aliens discussion boards, where the second you say you are against Amnesty, you find your account banned.
Not sure if you saw my other post, but I want to understand your argument better. You have repeatedly discussed the LAW and ORDER aspect of this debate, and you seem to stand firmly in that camp. Can you explain to me why you consider that such a strong argument? Thanks.
Isn't tax-and-spend Democrat a Reagan era term? We will have a $588 billion deficit this year, and the Republicans are running the show. "Tax and spend" is a bipartisan term which makes it a non-issue.
Whenever you have a criminal law being broken, there is a or a lot of victims hurt by the person(s) who have broken said law. As much as the Pro-Illegal Forces would have us believe otherwise, American Citizens are being hurt, being made victims by these criminals. I heard Snobia actually refer to ID theft as a *white collar* crime, the hidden suggestion being that said crimes has no real human victim...tell that to the individuals who have had their ID stolen, who suddenly find out that 200 people are now using their Social Security number to get a job, open up credit card accounts, so forth and so on....they will tell you that they are victims.
It would be real simple to say, "What's the big deal, they just walked across the border to find work." Every illegal here is guilty of at least four separate criminal violations, are multiple offenders, under the three strikes laws in some states could be sent to jail forever. So, though my focus is Law and Order, look at the victims who are being brutalized by these criminal illegal aliens.
1) Our current immigration laws should be followed, enforced, and strengthened as the situation calls for it (read more below)
2) Our Southern border needs reinforcement, both legal and physical.
a) more border guards
b) National Guard (if needed)
c) a huge, impenetrable border wall from Brownsville, TX to San Diego, CA. 20 feet thick and 50 feet high. Entry point tunnels that have built in radar, infra-red, and electronic detection systems built-in. Smuggling of all sorts would come to a grinding halt, immediately.
d) Big fines for American employers found to be hiring illegals. Enormous fines for those same American employers if they are caught twice. Prison time for the owners of such a company, for a third offense.
3) New legislation
a) workers who are already here need to pay a big fine, serve probation, and then they would be eligible to go to the back of the line to apply for a green card. Deportation or jail time if you don't follow the rules.
b) children born in the US to illegal aliens would not necessarily become legal citizens. First, their parents would have to comply with part 3a, above. No compliance, no legal birth certificate for Junior. These will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, although very, very few will get by this ruling. If the parents are legal, then the children will be deemed legal.
c) all benefits will be withheld from illegals until they have completed their LEGAL immigration process.
4) Canada - As of this writing, I see no burning need to build a wall to keep the Canadians out. Canada has proven itself to be fairly good at legal immigration. But, if they start to degenerate like Mexico, I reserve the right to build a wall across our Northern border too.
It has NOTHING to do with the color of anyone's skin. In fact, this process should be as color-blind as possible.
I look for something a little more modest, and achievable.
1. No one new enters the country without a verifiable place of employment awaiting them.
2. Of course, that means employers have to pay a higher wage which they won't happy about.
3. This may, in fact, mean that more Americans are employed since employers are required to pay more, and can't skirt tax and insurance responsibilities.
4. Grant police officers the ability to detain current illegal immigrants, and force them to provide proof of employment or be deported.
I think somewhere in all of this, there needs to be protections for American Workers. Simply matching a willing worker with a willing employer does NOT solve the problem....only if we have protections for American workers will that work.
OK, I'd like to focus on the LAW and ORDER for a minute. A peace officer is not expected to question the moral grounds of a law when enforcing said law, but you and I discussing policy must establish some common ground if we are to agree on validity of a law.
For instance, this country once had a Prohibition against drinking. Under incredible pressure, policy makers attempted to legislate behavior. We all know a lot of illegal drinking went on until the law was repealed. I am sure that the original supporters of Prohibition had the best intentions to curb the violent and destructive acts that sometimes accompany drinking, especially when done to excess. I am also sure that after the Amendment was adopted those same people stopped pleading on moral grounds and instead used fear of arrest and imprisonment to discourage drinking.
Let me clarify that the above example is in no way an analogy to illegal immigration. I am simply setting a precedent for the enactment of a law and its eventual repeal.
So back to illegal immigration. Forget about the law for a moment, and list the underlying reasons for wanting illegal immigrants removed. The law is a cop-out. It is for the police. In a discussion of social policy it has no place. I am sorry you have rowdy and law-breaking neighbors. They happen to be Hispanic. I have neighbors that grow pot in their back yard (law breakers!), and they are not Hispanic.
I do not want to add to the pool of potential felons in our country, but I also don't want to discriminate based on a perceived threat. Again you use the fallacious argument Appealing to Fear to win converts. Unless you can prove (with more than anecdotal evidence) that the rate of felons (to keep it fair, the crimes must be applicable to American citizens so immigration violations don't count) among illegal immigrants is higher than current American citizens, your arguments are bogus.
I will allow that we could have some protections for American workers, but that's dangerous ground as it creates a "slippery slope" toward discrimination.
The United States, for its own protection, needs to avoid isolationist policies. We need to maintain our status as an inclusive melting pot. It might be all we have one day. We have horrendous debt. India and China are looming economic giants that will overwhelm us. It wouldn't hurt for us to have a labor force that does not out-earn those nations by 10-fold or 100-fold. How else do we stay competitive? We are not leading in innovation. Many Graduate degree holders (admitted legally by student visas) are taking their knowledge home, leaving us with less brain power. Lower wages might be the only thing that keeps corporations with no nationalist tendencies whatsoever from fleeing our country like a sinking ship.
The transition will not be easy, and the USA will not be the same when it is complete. People adapt.
And as always it will come down to human beings, and how willing they are to break ranks and shake the hand of the new guy who looks a little funny.
How about FAKE ID's? Stealing, selling and possessing a fake ID are all crimes which Americans can be prosecuted for....do those count? If yes, then over 50 percent of illegal now in our country are subject to criminal prosecution....if convicted, they then are subject to deportation. Further, each separate use of a FAKE ID is a separate criminable offense....so, if someone opened a bank account, and secured three credit cards, then got a job using a FAKE ID, that is FIVE POTENTIAL CRIMES they can be charged with.
Many illegal aliens here in New York license their cars out of state to avoid high licensing fees, and our insurance requirements. This is actually a crime. When I first moved here from Ohio I had and officer knock on my door giving me a FRIENDLY reminder that I needed to register my car here in New York...said the next time he found it parked on the street without New York plates, and the appropriate inspection stickers he would have to write me a ticket. Do we count this crime? How about those driving with either license or insurance?
Here in the county where I live, to work for yourself in construction you have to have a county license and a one million dollar insurance policy....most of those here illegally do not abide by this....how do I know you might ask? When you have presented proper proof of insurance, and been issued a license you are also given a sticker that MUST be placed on the bumper of your work vehicle...no sticker on said bumper, you are breaking the law, you are not considered licensed...even if you have the sticker but are found working without it on your work vehicle you can be given a citation and ordered to appear in court.
Many illegals are cleaning houses...they are reguired to be licensed, but are not.
Now, what about all those who are working UNDER THE TABLE for cash. They are not filing their federal income tax returns, that is a violation of federal law, again a crime.
This is a part of the problem....they are not just guilty of entering America illegally. Further, there ignoring these laws gives them and advantage on those of us abiding by the laws. My licensing fee and insurance for my business are around $2,000 a year. I have to factor that cost of doing business into my estimates. My wife and I file our federal tax returns every year, pay a fairly large sum in both state and federal taxes...last year alone, our state tax bill was over $4,000....again, these costs have to be factored into my estimates....someone not abiding by the law has and unfair advantage over myself and anyone else that is abiding my the laws of a lawful society.
The list of examples could go on, but you get the idea.
On rowdy neighbors...it's not just ROWDY NEIGHBORS we are talking about here. Our property taxes on our home run just under $5,000 a year. At that price, we should be allowed to park our car in front of our house...as should the rest of the neighbors. We used to be able to do this. We have gone the city....here is the problem...they are reluctant to issue parking permits that would limit the number of cars any one house could park in front of their homes, as they would have to do it city wide, and most of the city is NOT having the problem we are having.
I am in support of law and order, because without it, you have chaos and anarchy. I am in support of law and order, because it maintains to some degree a level playing field for everyone. When one group becomes exempt from the laws, you create inequity. I don't have the opportunity, or perhaps I am too honest to march into a hospital and present a fake ID so that I can skip out on the bill. Last year I had ulnar nerve surgery, and the bill for surgery and after car was right at $30,000 dollars. The government did not pay my bill...meanwhile, I know of and illegal in the community who had an accident with a circular saw on a job site and cut off three of his fingers, was rushed to the hospital to have the fingers reattached, is still in physical therapy. That bill was picked up by the American taxpayer. I bring up this story for a reason. Had this man been abiding by the local laws for those in the construction trade, the insurance policy he is required to have by law would have covered a worksite accident, the taxpayers would not have had to foot the bill.
So tell me Sean....how many laws to you want to wave for those entering America illegally?
China has some veryturbulent waters ahead, are still VERY FAR from being a true super power...if they ever do become one, they are going to have to travel the same path in some ways that we have traveled. For the most part, the people are still oppressed...at some point, they are going to say enough is enough, and China is going to have to deal with creating parity and fairness for well over a BILLION people. Additionally, with that many people, they are going to reach a point where diminishing stockpiles of natural resources in their home land create some serious problems for them. India faces many of those same problems.
You bring up diminishing brain trust...a big part of that, is a huge influx of poorly educated, or uneducated people. Statistics prove that the children of uneducated parents have a much harder time in the educational system, and this reality might explain the fifty percent drop out rate for Hispanics in our American school system. Would be not be better off closing our borders, controlling the number of people who come here (mind you, more than one million people a year immigrate to American legally), and have a national agenda of a free college education for every LEGAL CITIZEN OF AMERICA....intellectual superiority is always going to be the gold standard that keeps America ahead of the rest of the pack, not volumes of bodies.
Let me ask this: if the United States forced illegal immigrants to abide by the same rules; pay their own way, so to speak. What then? I think you have already said you still prefer them out. Am I right?
In 2005, a little over 600,000 (well short of one million) people immigrated to the United States legally, about 77,000 from Mexico. Almost 40% (240,000) come from Asia. Draw your own conclusions from that.
As for the future of China, I wasn't talking about tomorrow, net month, or next year. I am talking about my daughter's generation, or maybe her grandchildren. We need to be smart about how we treat the rest of the world. We might need them some day.
Let's start there, lets see what kind of interest there is on the Pro Illegal Alien side to step up to the plate and agree to repay these back taxes under the same standards we as Americans would have to. Secondly, lets say that we reached agreement that we would WAVE criminal prosecution of those using a FAKE ID if they made financial restitution to those they harmed. One lady in the news has had to spend over $40,000 reclaiming her credit and her identification. Should she not be entitled to restitution with interest? If there were debt written off by credit card companies, should not those company be entitled to be made whole...whenever an American is placed into a diversion program, restitution is a part of the package.
She is more that likely working to pay off the smuggling debt that she ows to a " Snakehead " Human Trafficker.
Depending on the mode of transportation, the Chinese nationals may owe anywhere from $35,000 to $ 50,000, and they will be very lucy if they ever pay off that debt, and their only future here is working in these Chinese restaurants or in a sweatshop in Chinatown.
Though I'm against illegal immigration, I do have some sympathy for victims of Human Trafficking.
The Chinese call the U.S. the " Golden Mountain ". So is the Golden Mountain working in Chinese restaurants or sweatshops in Chinatown ? I have to wonder why these people put themselves into these kind of situations.