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by Ian Thorpe
Member since:
January 30, 2006

Our Debt To Islam

September 09, 2006 01:24 PM EDT (Updated: February 07, 2008 11:39 AM EST)
views: 381 | comments: 134

I just resurrected this article, changed the first paragraph which was obsolete and added a new link to an article by another writer on a sililar theme down at the end and posted it to some extra groups. I would advise skipping the old coments.

Almost five years into the Iraq war and seven years into the conflict in Afghanistan and the Islamophobia is still turned up to full volume. But thoughout those years of conflict and senseless killing few of us seem to have learned anything about Islam and what we owe to the Muslim world.

It is wrong to brand all Muslims as terrorists or to accuse Muslims of wanting to see every American dead although I see such opinions expressed here and elsewhere every day. There are as many flavours of Islam as there are of Christianity, some are as repugnant as the most extreme forms of Christian fundamentalism, some are as dedicated to promoting peace and understanding as are the Quakers and Unitarians.

Mistrust of Islam existed before 9/11 of course but since then it has grown out of all proportion to any potential threat. Instead of blaming Islam for all the ills of the world though, we who enjoy the benefits of western civilisation should thank Islam for ....erm, well, ... the benefits of western civilisation. While it is true to say that without Islam the WTC would not have been wrecked we must primarily understand that without Islam the WTC could never have been built.

I have said many provocative things before now about the unreliable foundations of Christianity but my only regret is that I have not gone far enough. The true history of the middle east before the conquest by Alexander is convoluted and complicated but the role of "the Jews" and later Christianity as a civilising influence is totally mythical. Christianity can truly be said to be the worship of ignorance and stupidity. People need to be aware that the adoption of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine the Great heralded the dark ages.

Though Constantine was a cunning and effective political operator who sought advice from the traditional sources, his successors, in order to keep the Christians onside and so stay in power, had to accept Christian leaders and Bishops as advisors and appoint their nominees to governorships and stewardships in the important provinces. These people were intent only on promoting the interests of their religion as a means to increasing their own wealth and power.

Seventy years after Constantine's adoption and subsequent reinvention of Christianity the political structure of the Empire had weakened so that it was effectively a Theocracy. It was the early Christian church (practising a form of Christianity that would not be recognisable today) that ordered the greatest act of cultural vandalism ever perpetrated when Bishop Theophilius ordered the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria and the destruction of all Wisdom that did not come from God," (in other words anything the Bishops had reason to fear.

For almost a thousand years ignorance ruled what was referred to as Christendom. All art music and literature could only be in praise of God, practice of the mathematics, sciences and healing arts developed by the Greeks, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Persians and Egyptians was forbidden to secular Christians and only the study of Christian subjects was encouraged.

Ironically some of the knowledge the secular church led by the Vatican was trying to destroy was kept alive in the monasteries. Monastic orders also preserved historic documents that give us some insight into the true mythical origins of Jesus rather than the lurid fantasies of the modern churches. The Monasteries also maintained contact with Zoroastrian and Islamic and other non - Christian scholars in Egypt, Assyria and the east. The knowledge of architecture, mathematics, sciences, astronomy and medicine were thus kept alive.

Much was lost, that phenomenon of the astral bodies, the precession of the equinoxes, known to the Druids in northern and western Europe as well as to the Pyramid builders of Egypt and Mesopotamia was only rediscovered in the nineteen - fifties. This may not seem important but it is essential to understanding the changing of seasons and the coming and going of ice ages. The secret of how the Pyramids were built is still lost however, theories about the building of ramps and moving huge stones on rollers are just unfeasible and even the most powerful cranes we have today could not handle the reach involved when loaded with such massive weights.

Christians did not care about such things though, their obsession with God convinced them that they should just carry on building churches by piling stones on top of each other until the weight of the higher structures caused the lower levels to collapse outwards. Christian churches then were lumpish and ugly buildings far removed from the graceful and elegant temples of the Greeks/ Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians and Persians.

All that began to change when the Moors invaded and conquered Spain in 711AD. There were many places of pilgrimage in Spain, and good reasons for pilgrims to go there, after all it was where Jesus and his wife Mary Magdalene had fled to escape the persecution of the Pharisee (Medieval Christians really did believe that, and there is a stack of evidence to support their beliefs) There was also the cult of James, alleged brother of Jesus. So the Christians were pissed off by Moorish rule but even more pissed off when the Moors started to build magnificent temples to Allah and palaces such as the Alhambra.

"Look at how they honour their God and their Kings," travellers said, "can it be their God is greater than ours if he grants them the knowledge to achieve such feats of craftsmanship?"

Initially the Catholic Church had such heretics executed but after a while the hierarchy caught on to the idea that something was going on. "Anything their God can do, our God can do better," the Pope and his Bishops sang in unison as they set about building the kind of magnificent structures the Moors and Arabs were putting up. Without success, unless you count collapsed buildings and loss of labourers lives a success.

The Monastic orders were a bit more cunning though. "Could it be these guys know something we don't?" they asked, "and if so how much will it cost to have them tech us?"

There is a bone of contention about which is the oldest of the Great European Gothic Cathedrals, Durham in Britain or Chartres in France. Durham was actually started first but due to a little local difficulty in England in 1066AD Chartres was completed first (both still stand today but have been extensively rebuilt.) It is possible in either to see the evidence that Muslim architects and builders were involved. Serious scholars can arrange to be taken high into the roof structures where they can observe Islamic symbols carved in the stones along with signatures of the men who carved them, as if the Muslims were saying "well OK, its to the glory of the Christian God but look who built it.

It was contact with the Moors in Spain and the Arabs during the crusades that led to the renaissance. Development in the western world had stood still or in some fields gone backwards since Christianity had become dominant but now important travellers, not just monks, merchants and adventurers but noblemen and Kings were saying "Duh, we got it wrong."

Gradually learning and creativity became acceptable again. The church resisted of course, viz. the persecution of Copernicus, Galileo and others. But we were able to learn some of what the Greeks and Egyptians had known and to build on it. So any time you come across Islamophobia just think that yes, it was deranged, fanatical Muslims that flew those 'planes into the World Trade Centre, but without Islam not only would there have been no world trade centre and no 'planes to fly into it (try building a plane without reference to Pythagorean mathematics) but no U.S.A. to get all stupidly patriotic about because the church would not have sanctioned expeditions to prove the world was round had it not been forced to.

I can't get away from the impression that Christian Fundamentalism will try its damndest to drag us back into the dark ages if we allow it to do so. For that reason I will close with these words from the prologue to Christopher Marlowe's play "The Jew of Malta"

"I count religion but a childish toy,
and hold there is no sin but ignorance."

 

You can read the comments below and see plenty of Christian idiots calling me a liar. Or you can read this article on Islamic Science by Prof. Jim Al Kahlili, an atheist of muslim / christian parents and a leading theoretical physicist who backs up what I have said in another FACTUAL article on the same topic.


Expand Tags: persian, 911, islam muslim, wtc, science, bishop, greece, cathedral, christian, egypt, assyrian, terror, christianity, war on terror, healing, rome, catholic, pope, phoenician, mathematics, world trade centre, creativity, greek, art, politics
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Comments: 134

Donald H. Sep 9, 2006, 1:29pm EDT
Well said.....! Thank you...! Not all Muslims are of the fanatical type..! many are decent, wondeful folks...to brand them as being what the radicals are is just unfair & not right!
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Don S. Sep 9, 2006, 1:31pm EDT
Very poorly reasoned.
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Porgie T. Sep 9, 2006, 1:57pm EDT
As the line goes, not all Arabs, and those of the Islamic faith are radical Islamic Terrorists, but all terrorists seem to be radical Arab Islamic fundamentalists. You obviously have not heard of personal responsiblity and self policing, or you would not have put up this diatribe.

Myself...until Arabs and those of the Islamic faith begin to police their own, until they STOP FUNDING these radical groups, they SHOULD BE LUMPED TO GETHER, SHOULD BE SUSPECTED until proven otherwise....you maybe not like profiling, but my RIGHT TO LIVE FREELY AND SAFELY outweighs your inconvenience....get over it.
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Reid Cornwell Sep 9, 2006, 2:00pm EDT
Don,

Your criticism is glaringly devoid of support. Could you, more importantly, would you share your logic?

Reid
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Todd L Sep 9, 2006, 2:14pm EDT
Ian,Ian,Ian, I would like to address the first 3 or so paragraphs of you article but before I do I would also like to commend you on the remainder...I have always been a proponent of the saying " Religion no matter what form or persuasion is nothing more than the opiate of the masses" Who said that you may ask....Me... Now as for the muslim aspect of your article...I totally agree with you on many aspects but at the same time you have to, or the world has to I should say, realise that as much as you might hate to group all segments of a race or religion into one, in order for the safety of the masses certain precautions must be taken..I'm gonna cut to the chase and skip the rhetoric...I've always thought that regardless of the predjudice be it crimminal profiling or racial or religious, or the so-called illegal wiretapping etc, etc, all the shit the liberals denounce, that if your not a crimminal if you are a law-abiding, tax paying, working class citizen why should you be worried They are not looking for you !!! Only the crimminals should be worried and face it isn't that what we want!!!...You should be happy that law-enforcement/Gov't is doing whatever it is that is necessary to protect you and your family even if in the literal sense of the Constitution your rights might be slightly infringed upon. Deal with it America and quit whining, because of that one innocent-looking person being frisked at the airport your ass might just get off the plane at your destination safe and sound !! By the way great article!!!
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Kevin Weeks Sep 9, 2006, 2:15pm EDT
Ian,
Good piece, well executed.

Porgy,
So the IRA in Ireland were really Muslems? And we should hold all Christians responsible for their acts?
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Lori C. Sep 9, 2006, 2:15pm EDT
First, I don't think people should be slamming other peoples religions. Everyone has the right to believe in what they want. I have friends from all faiths. On 9/11 I was working in a casino in Missouri. I worked with and am friends with lots of Muslims. I have talked with all of them abut that day. Most of them are hoping that with the help of other countries they will be able to take thier families back home, even if just to visit and feel safe there. Several of the men had brought the wives and children to America so they could live where they felt safe. They were all worried about thier friends and family still living there. They have all told me stories about what it was like to live in there homelands, both good and bad. Second a Terrorist can be from any Religion or background. What does a Terrorist look like anyway? I don't know, you don't know. Anybody could decide to become one. We need to protect our Country even from some of our own people. Remember the Oklahoma City Bombing. They were from close to my hometown. Remeber this the next time you go through airport security and you hear someone ask the emploees doing thier job "Do I look like a terrorist" Please ask that person what a terrorist looks like? I am sure the airport security people would Love to ask them this question but are not allowed to, so ask it for them. No I do not work at an airport but have talked to people who do and they are asked this question often. They are not allowed to ask them what a Terrorist looks like. I am sure you would make the Airports Screeners day by asking it for them.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Sep 9, 2006, 2:22pm EDT
Ian, you had me at synthetic emotion . Okay, you've had me for years, but that sealed the deal. You always deliver 100%, research, thought, and great writing, and I appreciate that. It helps also that I can't remember ever not agreeing with your point of view.
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Lori C. Sep 9, 2006, 2:22pm EDT
Todd L. Great Comment. Thanks! Excuse my typo's in prvious comment.
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Carol Voigts Sep 9, 2006, 2:47pm EDT
"Who put our oil under their sand?" In the world from the beginning, we've had the havenots vs. the haves, as well as groups who covet something another group has. The groups could be religious, ethnic, or national. They could become guerrillas to get what they want or they could become terrorists, or if they're powerful enough, they could just go take it by starting a war or invasion. They might start something because the other group offends their sensibilities, or because they need what ever the other group has. They might not like taxation without representation. It's been going on since the beginning of civilization . We demonize the ones doing the taking if we don't agree, (Moslem) but don't get too upset if we agree with their POV (Irish). So it has been ever thus. 1000 years from now I'm sure history writers will not take sides anymore than our history books do now about such events as the Moorish invasion of Spain, or the conquests of ancient Egyptians, or other takeovers. I think you did a good job at writing some valuable info we need to be reminded of.
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Clarke M. Sep 9, 2006, 3:42pm EDT
It is true that what the West learned of Greek science and philosophy came from Islam - the most studied books during the centuries of Dark Ages of Europe, after the Bible , were Arab ones, as Avicenna and Averroes; and the Islamic cultural centers in Italy, Sicily, and later, Spain were the most advanced in Europe. The Islamic civilzation which flourush form China and India, Africa and the Miditerranean was the last true world civilzation, which linked East and West more closely than any since and included many religions and people living in relative peace and harmony. However its decline began in the the 12th century, with different nations advancing and others not. After the 15th century the flourishing trade and commerce and cultural exchange between East and West - from Europe to Asia turned to conflict between East and West. By the European Renaissance the West turned toward secularism and materialism and many Islamic countries, notably the Ottomans turned toward a rigid religious worldview. This led to isolation and stagnation and eventually the inroads of Western colonialism. While the cultural influence from Islam persisted, it was largely through less visible through enlightend groups and secret societies. We see the influnec of Eastern music for example in the waltz, which came from the Sufi societies, the esoteric non- orthodox aspect of Islam, akin to societies like the Freemasons in Europe, who had roots in the East.
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Porgie T. Sep 9, 2006, 3:48pm EDT
Kevin...if it looks like a skunk, and walks like a skunk, I want someone keeping their nose to the ground to see if it smells like a skunk.

If I lived in Ireland, I would want someone keeping and eye on those that could be causing trouble. Here in America, and for most of the world, the terrorist question IS AN ARAB/ISLAM question. Like it or not, if a family of Arab descent, or of the Islamic faith moves into my neighborhood, I am buying some serious surveilance equipment, and figuring out how I can stake out their home and keep and eye on it until I have reason to trust them. As they say, fool me once, shame on your, fool me twice, shame on me...this American is not going to be quilty of contributing to our nation being caught with its pants down twice.
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Mandi -Watch where the chalk-white arrows go. To the place where the sidewalk ends. S.S. Sep 9, 2006, 4:03pm EDT
I have said this before and I will continue to say it.. the problem with this world is people and religion ALL religion.. there is no God, not ours, not yours, not theirs or anyones...

people use religion as a way to start wars, murder, pillage and fly planes into buildings.

Muslims... they twist their "Gods" words into their own words of hate and murder and teach their children the same. Just as the catholic church uses the bible to keep people under their thumbs... keeps them afraid of a vengeful God, keeps women pregant with 4, 5, 6 kids they can't afford. keeps birth control from women, lets their priests molest children..

religion makes me sick... the world would be a better place with out any of it.
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Rome S. Sep 9, 2006, 5:06pm EDT
Who's lumping all muslims into terrorists ? I've not heard that from very many people. Only some extreme points of view. Islamic terrorists come from the religion of Islam. Not all religious Islam is terrorists, but all terrorists have been Islamic. And as far as I know, the IRA wasnt ramming anything into our buildings. Thats an idiotic paralell. You people who hate the idea of religion, just hate the fact that you have to have faith in something besides yourself. It means that there is a right and wrong. What makes it wrong to murder ? What makes it wrong to rape someone ? What makes it wrong to steal that which does not belong to you ? If you have no sense of moral connection to GOD, then why would it be wrong for me to steal your car and take your life in the proccess ? If I have no spiritual moral compass, then what makes immoral behavior, immoral ? Do you think some dude sat around ions ago and said, hey we shouldnt steal ? There are fanatics in every aspect of life. So condem the acts of all fanaticism, but not the princpals of religion. If we are spiritually bankrupt, then why not do whatever we want, to whomever we want, whenever we want. Right ? Get over your fear of having to answer for your moral behavior and live life as GOD intended. If you dont, then enjoy yourself now, its the only time you'll be able to.
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Clarke M. Sep 9, 2006, 5:23pm EDT
The problem is people not religion.The founders of religions taught more or less the same thing to different peoples and the values are the same. Wars are all waged in the name of some religion , yes. For billions of people religions have provided hope and helped to restrain the worst human instincts, to maintain civilizations and prevent them from falling iinto barbarism. This current demogogy about the clash of Islam and the West is due to pathological and greedy politicians and their controllers. The War on Terror is not about religion. It's about the haves and have-nots and those who will never have enough.
Injustice breeds terrorism. Where did suicide bombing come from? The overwhelming use of suicide bombing for resistance in the past 100 years was by secular groups. It began to be used among Muslims in the past two decades. A small group of religious extremists, funded by the West as well as some Arabs, distorted Islam to use it.
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Clarke M. Sep 9, 2006, 5:35pm EDT
University of Chicago professor and military historian Robert Pape argues the root cause of suicide terrorism is foreign occupation, not Islam. Pape compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack--315 of them--around the globe between 1980 and 2003.

"The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions," says Pape in Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism

Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers--a secular nationalist group--carried out 76 of the instances of suicide terrorism, more than are credited to Hamas. "Even among Muslims, secular groups account for over a third of suicide attacks," adds Pape, citing the Kurdish Workers Party in Turkey, which has used suicide-bombing tactics in its fight for independence, but maintains a secular ideology.

Pape also debunks the image of the suicide bomber as a crazed social outcast, explaining that the opposite is often the case. He provides examples of various expressions of popular support, and sometimes assistance, for suicide bombers.

A recent study by the Israel-based Global Research in International Affairs Center backs up Pape's idea that occupation is at the heart of terrorism. The researchers looked at 154 fighters who had come to Iraq from other countries and died during the previous six months, including 33 who died in suicide bombings. The study found that "the vast majority of Arabs killed in Iraq have never taken part in any terrorist activities prior to their arrival in Iraq."

Pape sasys, "The bottom line, then, is that suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation. Isolated instances in other circumstances do occur. Religion plays a role. However, modern suicide terrorism is best understood as an extreme strategy for national liberation against democracies with troops that pose an imminent threat to control the territory the terrorists view as their homeland."
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Bert B. Sep 9, 2006, 5:59pm EDT
First, let me say that this is a very fine, well-researched article. Kudos to you, Ian. Second, I am appalled at the current 6.4 rating. It is obvious that the rating system fails to function when people who disagree with an article can trash its ratings. I will do my part to correct that with a resounding 10.
There is much in the comments that I would love to tear to pieces, but I know that is a waste of time.
I feel obliged to respond to a couple of the worst:
Mr. Sween's gratuitous insult..."very poorly reasoned" doesn't even deserve comment. The comment itself is a caricature of reason.
Rome S states, "If you have no sense of moral connection to GOD, then why would it be wrong for me to steal your car and take your life in the proccess?"
I have no sense of moral connection to God, in fact I do not believe in God, and I am a Helluva lot more moral than a lot of so-called devout Christians. Do you need a list? How long a list would you like? Morals and faith are not linked at all, as far as I can tell
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Porgie T. Sep 9, 2006, 6:16pm EDT
Bert, you say po tat o, I say po ta to....in short, like it or not, your ten is not mine and vice versa. Which is why ratings are....well, over rated. As for your contentions that a lot of Christians have no morals, and are the least moral creatures walking this earth...on that, we can agree.
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Charles Marcello Sep 9, 2006, 6:53pm EDT
Ian Thorpe,

Very well said. I enjoyed reading your post. Almost all of it is historically accurate, but some you did uses a bit of literary license to. However, there was something missing from your post. THE HISTORY OF ISLAM! Or more importantly how Islamic controlled countries, for the most part, treat their own citizens over the last sixty years, up to and including today, since they are no longer under colonial control. But that wasn't important to make your point I guess. Yet it still is important if we are to understand where we are today, instead of just focusing on what positives were created hundreds of years ago.

Just a thought!


--Charles Marcello
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Abu Tarleyb Sep 9, 2006, 7:46pm EDT
Great Piece. God Bless You.
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Mandi -Watch where the chalk-white arrows go. To the place where the sidewalk ends. S.S. Sep 9, 2006, 9:34pm EDT
Talk about proving my point Rome S.

You say if someone doesn't believe in God they are moraless and deserve to be robbed, etc... talk about bull shit religion talking.
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Charles A. B. Sep 9, 2006, 9:53pm EDT
Religion shouldn't be attacked. Not all my muslims are terrorist.
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John Knight Sep 9, 2006, 9:59pm EDT
"Wars are all waged in the name of some religion , yes."

Uh...anybody care to document that?

It's become standard thinking and speaking among many "high and mighty" judgemental non-religious folk, but is so utterly baseless that it must be renounced.

Most people in the world are at least casual believers of some religious persuasion, so it is possible to pretend that's why they war. In fact, very few wars are based on religious differences, just run through a list of the wars you can think of and you'll see. Greed, autonomy, land, economics, ethnicity, politics, power lust, blood feuds, etc...Yes. Religion...No.
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Joe C. Sep 9, 2006, 10:16pm EDT
I hate to say it, but even though your facts are accurate, it would take a moron to arrive at the same conclusions. While it is true that the Christian religion was hijacked, you fail to mention the hundreds of thousands men, women and children, that were put to death for their beliefs. The most recent occurrence was 9/11/2001.

You also fail to mention that while the roman empire was in decline, the Persian empire grew stronger. It wasn't the Muslims that were soaring above the clouds with enlightenment, but the Chinese. Throughout history, the common Muslim family has been a road map for dysfunctional. Should we talk about the Talibans treatment of women, or maybe the penal system.

I could go on all day, but your just too easy. Religion has never been a problem, it's been fools who use it for their own ends. God, has never started a war, only fools that have no religion.

Finally, you are one of those people, who find themselves above the rest of humanity, A God unto yourself. I have found that most men that have this complex are merely compensating for a small penis. You are really angry with God, because he neither blessed you with the mentality to be an intellectual, or a penis adequate enough to be a great Lover. May I suggest a large Pickup Truck.
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Bert B. Sep 9, 2006, 11:12pm EDT
Joe, you have some interesting things to say. Some of them make sense, and some of them don't.
Religion has never been a problem, it's been fools who use it for their own ends.
Pretty much correct, although I would argue that when the leaders of a religion do not denounce and excommunicate extremists who claim to follow their faith, then the religion itself is part of the problem. Islam has that problem today with its terrorists...and Christianity has an equal problem with its fanatical evangelicals and "Dominionists." Both of those groups are leading mankind over a cliff, and neither Christian nor Islamic leaders are making more than minor bleating noises in protest.
You single out the Taliban and condemn it, and rightly so. Why do you not single out the evangelical Christians and our God-guided president who has started a second Crusade (his word)? There is plenty of blame to go around for the current sad state of affairs. The problem, as I see it, is that Christianity and Islam are both aggressively proselytizing, both intent on making their religion the one-and-only world religion. As long as we have fanatical idiots like that, the earth is in danger.
Read Mandi's comment above. That is the angry voice of secularism, fed up with the atrocities commited in the name of faith. I agree with her.
It's time for the people of the earth to stop listening to the demagogues trying to incite us into mutual self-destruction, and to practice tolerance. Most people would just like to live in peace and raise their families. Their religion is a private thing. It's these inciters of hate in the name of religion who are getting people stirred up and angry. They are the problem, and I have to agree with Mandi...the world would be a safer place without religions.
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manoj sanyal Sep 9, 2006, 11:27pm EDT
I agree Ian.
Excess of anything is bad.
Religious fundamentalism is the cause of all problems.
... and muslims are not the only culprits.... we all are irrespective of our faiths and religions.

Spiritualism needs to be encouraged and not the religion.
I have expressed my view point in my poem
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976785251 with the COSMIC SOUND IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGIONS.

Cheers Ian!
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 12:01am EDT
I find it kind of amusing that nearly every time I read an article that starts out as a defense of Islam, by the third paragraph or so it has devolved into an attack on Christianity. Furthemore, in respect to those last few posts equating evangelical Christians, with Islamic fundamentalists, I am frankly, insulted by such a claim and I am neither Christian nor Muslim.

Christianity's dark past is certainly nothing for Christians to be proud of, but the over whelming culture of TODAYS Christians is one of tolerance and respect. Religious minorities are welomed into Christian dominated countries for the most part, while minorities in Muslim dominated countries live in fear for their lives on a daily basis. The ancient history of both faiths is simply not relevant to the current state of affairs.
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Kathryn E. Sep 10, 2006, 12:23am EDT
Thanks for publishing to The Renewed Activist.
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Bert B. Sep 10, 2006, 1:08am EDT
Acts of terrorism kill people, but the ideas of the fanatical Christians also constitute a threat. Ideas can be as lethal as bullets.
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Jerry Kays Sep 10, 2006, 1:08am EDT
Ian, great and true article. It is too bad that those that need to know such the most, are naturally those that reject it out of hand. Yes, many are offended, because the truth can hurt for those living in falsehood.

It can be argued forever (and probably will be) whether religion has any relationship to most wars. I would say that it does in that it has promoted a dualistic concept of judgemental righteousness lording itself over any that do not agree with their version of morality and the like.

Most such troublesome religions are extremely polarizing. Sadly many of them are fear based in that they believe all normal humankind (secular especially) to be depraved and without a moral compass that they think only their religion can supply ... a purely ignorant concept that believes a world without their religion is pure evil ... NOT !

True Spirituality is an esoteric knowing of an internal spiritual connection to the all of the universe, as such it far transcends mere exoteric and orthodox religions.

The former is about love compassion and liberal trust in the spiritual intuition that attempts to be heard as the still small voice within each of us. This, when known, brings the ego self into the fold of the Soul. There is then no more fear to contend with, no reason to fight over anything because you no longer fear even death, knowing yourself to be spiritually immortal.

Then we have the latter of exoteric religion that speaks and acts from the objective 5 sensory physical concept of separation from God/Spirit, that to be an 'earned' future (after death) for those that sacrifice and obey. They speak of, and claim, spirituality for their own, but their exoteric version has no comprehension of the esoteric nature of the transcendent personal experience of it.

So, left with separation from their God, and fear for their person and eternal future, they judge right from wrong and often condemn those that disagree. They have been indoctrinated with the idea that all is about winning or losing, that right triumphs over wrong and if a 'good' man stands by-then evil will triumph, hence they must always pick the most righteous 'side' and WAR against the 'other'.

Now there are secular leaders that know how this all works, many of them also hold deep inside the fears of their upbringing based upon real ignorance of how the universe really works. They promote nationalism, often based upon religious concepts, and the gullible go to war for them patriotically.

In the case of Islamic terrorism, it is often the same type of older 'leaders' that falsely incite the young idealistic youth to carry out the suicidal acts in their stead. Those youngsters are most religious (exoteric version) in that they are willing to die for their cause, just as noble in their minds as those of any other cause. They feel that they will be welcomed into their version of heaven ... that is the only reason that they would give their life that way.

In WW2 the Japanese had their own version of that which flew airplanes into our ships (also exoteric but with perverted esoteric beliefs) ...

Religion may not be the direct cause of all wars and killing, but when properly understood as an ignorant duality based belief around fear, it is usually at least indirectly responsible.

For the rare few that might want to understand the transcendent truth of all of this, check out BOOK

(+=-)=:-)
(+/-)=:-(
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Clarke M. Sep 10, 2006, 2:37am EDT
"Wars are all waged in the name of some religion , yes."

Uh...anybody care to document that?
____________________________________

"Religion has never been a problem, it's been fools who use it for their own ends.

Pretty much correct, although I would argue that when the leaders of a religion do not denounce and excommunicate extremists who claim to follow their faith, then the religion itself is part of the problem."

>>>>

In what I wrote I stressed that the world religions in their original form served to make civilzations possible and enable them to develop and be maintained . Whether or not one accepts the traditionalists' view that each world religion was brought by a Messenger chosen from Above to perform a sacred mission, the history of each religion shows that they brought renewal to civilzation at times of decay and disintegration of the then current empires and civilizations and a completly new formulation of what may called universal or perennial ideas. In the case of Islam its rapid spread led to the renewal of many different stagnant and decadent cultures which had varying religious beliefs. It's special appeal was to the equality of all races and peoples. It is only in the last few centuries that there has been a split between science and religion. The majority of the people in the world still look to their religion as an authority. In the West and increasingly among contemporary people in many countries traditional religion has lost its meaning and authority. That orthodox religions have been used to serve the state is obvious. Karl Marx has described eloquently in our time how this is true. Communism and Capitalism are each "modern religions," although each in its way stressed part of what traditional religions taught, although from a materialistic world view. The modern version of the Protestant ethic bears much similarity to the "spiritual materialism" of Fundamentalist Islam.
I can't think of any wars that have not invoked the authority of one religion or another. Hitler was atheistic, yet he also invoked Christianity for political reasons.
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Deanna Derbyshire Sep 10, 2006, 5:57am EDT
I agree with Mandi - " the world would be a better place without any of it"

Those who hold a religion and those who don't will always argue their own view.

Terrorists hide behind a religion for their own purposes - there is nothing bad about being religious - there is a lot of badness in terrorists.
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Ryan V. Sep 10, 2006, 7:37am EDT
Strange post...any sources?
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 10:37am EDT
Jude's point was from the perspective of people in India, where (from a local geography point of view) the statement is largely accurate. Generalizations are almost never absolutly correct as Debra's example shows, but that does not mean that the generalization is innacurate The bulk of terror and terror networks in the world have their common roots in fundamentalist Islam.

As for this notion that we "owe" Islam something, nonsense. History is history. IF some Muslims centuries past did some good things, I "owe" THEM something, I owe today's Muslims nothing unless they perform some deed that warrants it.
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David Hammond Sep 10, 2006, 11:09am EDT
Good article, but in the words of Paul, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Cor. 2:14
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Ian Thorpe Sep 10, 2006, 11:18am EDT
Its going to take a while to digest all these comments and post responses to the issues raised, as usual thanks for all your comments, especially to Sandy Knauer and Beret Bigelow.
But what has happened to the maniacs at Gather? I was hoping for a few death threats at least.

Ian
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David Hammond Sep 10, 2006, 11:32am EDT
I'm new to Gather, I like the set up but i don't know how to find a list of all the discussion rooms
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 11:37am EDT
Ian,
You get death threats every day from Muslim extremists. Isn't that enough for you :-)
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 11:39am EDT
Whoa...
Another David H.
One of us gotta change their monicker. I pick you.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 12:05pm EDT
Bert Bigelow,

I agree Bert, Extremism is never religion, but the misuse of religion. There is nothing wrong with absolute faith, if you practice it yourself, and don't impose it on others or the world.

You are a very thoughtful man, and your points are well taken. Moderation in all things should be the rule of the day, not in the absolutes put forward by both ends of the spectrum.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 12:13pm EDT
Joe C wrote:

"There is nothing wrong with absolute faith, if you practice it yourself, and don't impose it on others or the world."

The problem Joe, is that absolute faith in Islam REQUIRES that it be imposed on others in the world.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 12:13pm EDT
Ian, if you are an American, there are Young men with families dying everyday for your right to write anything you want, as misguided as it is. Not only are Americans dying but innocent Muslims, Killed by Extremist Muslims. Unfortunately post like yours just reinforce the extremist on both sides of the issue. It would be more helpful to point out the similarities of the religions, such as we all descended from Abraham, worship the same God...... Feeding the fire of hate, just builds hate. Evil men make unjust wars. God or religion are just the excuse they use.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 12:31pm EDT
David H Wrote:

"The problem Joe, is that absolute faith in Islam REQUIRES that it be imposed on others in the world. "

Spread the word, sound familiar. Unfortunately extremist on both sides have used this to spread religion at the point of a gun. Religion is spread through acts of sacrifice, humility and love. Hatred is spread through lies and lack of understanding. Such as the filth be spewed by both extremes. Jesus refereed to God in the familiar sense, when he spoke to him it was in terms like daddy, papa, terms of endearment. This is the God he wanted us to get to know. A God that would let his own son die. He revealed to us the depth of his love and what was coming, when he revealed to Abraham, how tough it was going to be for him, to sacrifice his own son for us. Later to Daniel in the 22nd Psalm. When we get past our differences, we're all the same. God is a Good father, and just like any father, does not celebrate the death or the loss of any person. We choose to believe in God in our own way, and not even the point of a gun, can change that. Our belief system is ours alone.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 12:33pm EDT
Joe C wrote:
"It would be more helpful to point out the similarities of the religions,"

Actualy Joe, that would be a mistake. The Quran is quite specific on this as it states "They (Christians and Jews) wish you to be like them. May Allah destroy them."

When you try an emphasize the similarities between Christendom, Judaism and Islam, you fall right into the trap set for you by the Quran. The extremists point to your efforts and say "see? it is as the Quran foretold".
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 12:59pm EDT
?Spread the word, sound familiar??

Joe, I've read the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran. When you've read all three, then come back and debate me. You can't quote the Old Testament as proof that the God of the Quran is a peaceful one. If you bother to read the Quran, you will know just how wrong that notion is.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 1:20pm EDT
David,

All three were written by men, with their own perspective. However God created the world, and does not set up war games for his creations to be destroyed. There are countless examples in the King James where God Smote individuals and nations, but it was God that did so, not God speaking to George Bush, or Bin Lauden.

Each person will be judged by their acts, not by the acts of extremist. You have to understand what you read for it to have any meaning. I suggest you re-read all three.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 1:25pm EDT
David for your edification,

47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 1:34pm EDT
Joe C wrote:
"However God created the world, and does not set up war games for his creations to be destroyed."

Joe,
I'm telling you what the Quran says, not what God does or does not do.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 1:39pm EDT
Joe C wrote:
"47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him."

So what? shall I quote the Quran in response? "There is nothing more vile than an unbeliever"

Sounds pretty judgmental to me...
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 1:51pm EDT
You proved my point. These verses refer to the teachings of Christ, not Christ himself. Muhammed never claimed to be God, but a prophet. Your example is taken out of context. He is referencing belief in God. Another example of misuse of religion. Ultimately it will lead to the destruction of both religions. Sane people will loose faith. This is ashamed, as I have absolute faith, but nut cases, think they'll be sitting on the first pew in heaven or have 70 virgins waiting, but the price is to crush the belief systems of others. Either through misleading them by using Gods word or at the point of a gun.

The Quran is a book, The Bible is a book, to be used or misused. The temple of God is the soul of each man. There God dwells, not on pieces of paper.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 2:17pm EDT
"Your example is taken out of context. He is referencing belief in God."

Its pretty much in context bud, if you had actualy read it in context you would know that. You keep quoting the books you have read to "prove" things about books you haven't. You may as well cover your eyes with your hands and then announce that it is dark out because YOU can't see anything.

"The Quran is a book, The Bible is a book, to be used or misused"

The difference is that the Bible doesn't tell me to "fight until religion is only for Allah", to kill the Idolators (Hindus) and to impose Sharia law on the world. The Quran does.

I don't need God in my soul to know this is wrong, nor do I need quotes from King James to tell me what the Quran says.
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Bert B. Sep 10, 2006, 2:56pm EDT
Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:
17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 3:35pm EDT
Well done Bert.

Every time I turn the discussion to what the Quran says, someone trots out that quote in some kind of attempt to show that the Old Testament is "just as bad".

There is a substantive difference in two very important aspects.

The first is that the passage above refers to those "who hath wrought wickedness...in transgressing his covenant" If you'll recall his covenant, it contained such admonishments as "thou shalt not kill". The passage does not mean to kill anyone who does not accept (in this case) Judaism.

The second is that the Old Testament is a very long, very complicated document which has a number of unsavoury passages. The over arching theme, however, is justice and vengeance. The New Testament also has some unsavoury passages, but again the over arching them is clear; peace, love and tolerance.

The Quran on the other hand is a much shorter document which contain messages of violence and intolerance on nearly every page.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 3:50pm EDT
David you really can't read can you? Bert's point is any conclusion can be taken out of context, and used or misused to prove any point. In addition both religions worship the same God.

People who practice intolerance, destroy religion, and live in contradiction to their religion. We can go back and forth, but there are two idiots responsible for the weakening of America, George Bush and Bin Laden. God's sitting this one out.
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shaji m. Sep 10, 2006, 3:59pm EDT
you have earned my respect and i pray u will keep up the good work.i hope people will open their mind and think openly before calling all muslims terror or hate them . thank you onces again for great work you have done
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 4:41pm EDT
Joe C wrote:
"David you really can't read can you?"

I can and I did. You accuse me of not being able to read, yet you draw conclusions about the Quran even though you've never even read it. I can read, you just WON'T. Why? Might find out my facts are accurate?

I got Bert's point. Did you get mine? The over all theme is what is important, not a single out of context quote.

Extreme Muslims are not acting in contradiction to their religion, they are acting in ACCORDANCE with their religion. Read the fucking thing before you shoot off your mouth again.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 4:43pm EDT
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
Here's the link so you can read it on line. Won't cost you a penny.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 4:45pm EDT
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/
And here's a simple search page so you can look at various topics. I suggest you search on the word "Christian" just to have a quick read as to what it says. Then try "Jew". Then try "Idolator".

I can read, and I have. Will you?
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John Knight Sep 10, 2006, 5:15pm EDT
Ian,

I am perfectly willing to accept that "religion" is basically the basis upon which wars are waged, IF one defines religion as the human tendency to adhere to a belief system, and allow leaders of such systems to define underlying components of it to suit their plans.

I would however like to reiterate that what we might better call "theology", in the more common use of the word 'religion', is very rarely the basis of war.

And attaching to 'religion' in this common use sense, any particular tendency to facilitate warlike behavior, is not supported by the history of our species. We war. We have always warred. It is a behavior that exists independently, and very often in contrast to, the admonitions of the theological teachings of the major Religions.

I could well argue that such theologies actually reduce the tendency of people to engage in armed combat, and cite the near constant tribal warfare that is engaged in throughout the history of regions not significantly influenced by these belief systems. Blaming them for war, is like blaming the 'rule of law', for crime.
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Bruce ! Sep 10, 2006, 5:57pm EDT
After reading every word of this article and all the following comments the only thing I had never heard before is someone saying that Ian has a small pecker and should get a pick-up truck.

All the rest is the same old shit.

We are at war and there are Islamic fanatics that want all of us dead and our way of life ended. They truly want to return the world to the middle ages. We must protect ourselves, our families and our country by killing them first.

Period end of story.
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libramoon C. Sep 10, 2006, 6:12pm EDT
Ku Klux Klan
John Wilkes-Booth
SS
Weather Underground
Symbionese Liberation Army
Timothy McVeigh
Inquisitors
IRA
pirates
American colonists
French revolutionaries
Cosa Nostra
street gangs

and on and on, terrorists all -- how many Muslims?
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Bruce ! Sep 10, 2006, 6:18pm EDT
Libramoon,
I agree and they were/are being dealt with swiftly and most of them brutally...as should the current crop that are currently terrorizing the civilized world.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 6:26pm EDT
Bruce, you are right. Hundreds of thousands will soon die, because of a few nut cases. Most people consider religion a personal issue, while a few consider it their duty to inflict their beliefs on others. The current administration, while not casting the first stone, used the stone to enrich themselves and their cronies. WTF are we doing in IRAQ? OIL! My point has been from the beginning that religion has been used as an excuse to go to war. Do you really think anyone as dumb as Bush, whose brain trust consist of, scooter, cheney, and rumsfeld, receives personal council from God? They have given the weakest nations in the world authority over us. North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and others. We had the right to respond to 9/11, but no moral or legal reason to invade Iraq. Now we will be forced to kill the multitudes, most of them innocent, seeking only to live out their lives, without an IED shoved up their ass.

On the flip side of the coin. bin laden and all of his followers, are obvious nuts. They set the ball in motion that will roll over their own populations. WE have more bombs and bullets than we need to destroy the entire middle east, and it will take only a small spark to ignite the use of those weapons.

I think this is a holy war, created by unholy arm chair generals, who have never tasted the blood of the battle field. How many on this board has ever had anything shot at them other than harsh language? We were wrong, they were wrong, but it's people who could give a shit about world politics, 70 virgins, or sitting on the right hand of God that are going to pay.

God is going to be very busy taking care of all the fresh souls, both Muslim and Christian.
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Jerry Kays Sep 10, 2006, 6:34pm EDT
Joe C., Amen to that !
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 6:36pm EDT
Ok David, I did the search and this is what came up. 90% of it acceptance and only one verse even suggestive. This at a time of the crusades? Read things yourself, before you waste my time.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
[2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.
[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.
[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.
The Family of Imran
[3.67] Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists.
The Dinner Table
[5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.
[5.18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
The Immunity
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
The Pilgrimage
[22.17] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associate (others with Allah)-- surely Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection; surely Allah is a witness over all things.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 7:01pm EDT
For starters Joe, I told you to READ it. The sentences just before and just after these quotes are just as important as the quotes themselves in understanding the context. Ooooh there's that word again, CONTEXT. You have to read it all dummy.

And what part of "may allah destroy them" do you not understand? These are the words of a "prophet" that you claim represents the same God as the Christian God?

What part of not taking Jews and Christians for friends or helpers (employees) do you not understand?

Read the sentences just after some of the comments that say "..and God has reserved for them a most painful chastisement"

And women should not forget the simple instruction that husbands are given for wives who are disobedient:

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;

And let's not foget what Muslims ar COMMANDED to do with missionaries from other religions:

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,

and on what to do with "unbelievers"

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

don't forget what to do with prisoner of war:

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

and don't forget what you are supposed to do right after Ramadan if there are any Hindus in the area:

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The same God my ass.
Peacefull religion my ass.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 7:34pm EDT
ooops I forgot

"fight until religion is only for Allah"
TWO instances of that one.

That's just off the top of my head. There's lots more but I would actualy have to do some work to document them.

How about instead you READ the thing?
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libramoon C. Sep 10, 2006, 8:16pm EDT
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/capital.html

For Worshipping another god

"He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." -- Exodus 22:20

For Witches

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." -- Exodus 22:18


For not being a Virgin on the night of the wedding

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." -- Deuteronomy 22:13-22


For Rape Victims who don't cry out loudly enough

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24


For Disobedient children


"He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death." -- Exodus 21:15

"He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." -- Exodus 21:17

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him." -- Leviticus 20:9

For Breaking the Sabbath

"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death." -- Exodus 31:14

"Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." -- Exodus 31:15

"Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." -- Exodus 35:2

For Blasphemy

"He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." -- Leviticus 24:16
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 8:32pm EDT
You forgot to mention the Crusades, The Inquisition, Joan Of ARC, The Church turning their back on the Holocaust. You can use any text to prove anything. You said perform a search, not to dedicate my life to reading to Koran, which has nothing to do with 9/11 or the current war. Evil men caused the war, and fools follow them. God does not hate Muslims, Jews, Methodist, Catholics, or even Souther Baptist. God hates evil and those that are evil. Consider a Buddhist reading the following text and what conclusions they would draw from the text. I am a Christian, just not a blind follower of morons.

Numbers 31
Vengeance on the Midianites
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."
3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp."
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 9:16pm EDT
As I said before, there are a lot of unsavoury passages in the Testaments, and you've managed to pull out some of the worst of them. Some of them are downright evil. Others are just a recounting of events. Still others are out of context. Example; a witch way back when was a person who supplied poison for the purpose of assassination and was not to be tolerated.

But I find nothing that calls for the slaughter of other religions.
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 9:55pm EDT
David, We will have to kill most of the Muslims in the world, because the Dye is cast. My point is that the war should have stayed focused on the terrorist and not a war against Iraq or on Muslims in general. People are people, when you shoot them or blow them up, they die, I know I'm an Ex-Marine. Unfortunately because a small minority of Muslims seek power, the rest will pay.

God loves humanity, all of it, or he would have crushed us all like bugs by now. What we need to do is to start following the 11th commandment, "Love each other as I have loved you". Until we get past the point of where it is our differences which define us, there will always be wars and the slaughter of the innocent.
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David H. Sep 10, 2006, 10:29pm EDT
Joe,
I agree with most of your last post.
But ask yourself a question.

Why is it that Muslim dominated countries almost always devolve into theocracies or theocratic supported dictatorships that repress women and minorities? Are Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, Syria, Somalia, the former Afghanistan, the former Iraq, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kuwait and on and on all just unlucky enough to have "bad" leaders? Or is there something else resulting in similar cultures between them....hmmmm.
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libramoon C. Sep 10, 2006, 10:46pm EDT
"But I find nothing that calls for the slaughter of other religions."

--------------

"He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." -- Exodus 22:20
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Joe C. Sep 10, 2006, 10:56pm EDT
David,

There is very little about the Muslim religion I agree with. In an earlier post, I made the same argument. There is no excuse religious or otherwise that justifies the abuse of women, or any sub group of society.

What I'm trying to get across is that our politicians are try to frame this into a holy war, us against the Muslims, when it's really us against evil men. We just need to learn to recognize all the bad guys, ours and theirs.
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Jerry Kays Sep 11, 2006, 2:27am EDT
My interpretation of God is not anthropomorphic, rather God is the totality of all that is created, could be or will be.

God permeates the entirety of the Universe via Spirit which is intelligent energy experienced via our intuition as sense other than the normal 5 physical senses.

Because of the Spiritual Unity of all, all time and space is accounted for, there are no accidents, what goes around comes around, if not in the current life time, then another time. Time and space are infinite, yet joined into a simultaneity from the perspective of God that would be considered the very center of all.

Spirit speaks to all who will listen and heed (trust), but it is those that seek ultimate truth without preconceived expectation that best receive such truth.

Many are called, few are chosen, primarily because it is but few who hear. Those that do hear tend to be prophets and seers, yet many of them do not hear as well as they should, and then the message becomes somewhat less than presented.

Then as it is passed along, it suffers more distortion. Some few may understand the esoteric essence intended, but most only get the common surface meaning, the exoteric. Most of our common religious concepts in use today, are of the latter, the exoteric. They deal more in non-spiritual duality based upon conflict, even though they use many words of the esoteric spiritual, and make claims to spirituality, they are ignorant of it.

Most such religions dismiss related mystical sects as heretic that understand better the esoteric. That dismissal due to the fact that the esoteric message is often at odds with the exoteric in that the esoteric is about a personal internal direct experience with spirit that requires no intervening Priestley authority, which if ever caught on, would do away with the need for churches and their 'officials'. The 'officials' will not stand for that.

A truly Spiritual person, through their intuition, can tap into the perennial wisdom that is common to all of human kind ... if only they would seek within rather than without.

There are some relatively few religions that understand this, they are seldom believed by the common religionist that via their selective duality of you are either with us or against us, tend to want to fight over things ...

(+=-)=:-)=TRINITY
(+/-)=:-( =DUALITY
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David H. Sep 11, 2006, 4:43am EDT
libramoon wrote:
" "But I find nothing that calls for the slaughter of other religions."

--------------

"He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." -- Exodus 22:20"

Nice try. First of all it is Exodus 22:19. Second of all, it is a prediction of doom, not a command to act.
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Dolphi D. Sep 11, 2006, 8:53am EDT
At a time of rabid arguments on religion and terrorism, this is a very good article on how the Islamic scholars kept the flame of learning alight when the whole of Christian world was plunged into dark ages. A lot of interesting historical facts, some obscure, and the excellent style of writing make it a highly readable article.

While it is wrong to blame an entire community or religion for the acts of a few fanatics, the article stresses the dangers of civilization descending into decadence if dominated by any single ideology or religion. The worst danger comes from the combination of political power and religion. People use religion for deplorable purposes because of the sway the eternal rewards and punishments can have on the minds of people. For purposes like suicide attacks only religion offers itself as an easy motivating and brainwashing tool.

We find people with a variety of inclinations towards religion. But, there is marked distinction between a devout follower and a fanatic follower of religion. The not-so-funny thing is that a fanatic of whatever religion has the same recognizable face and is prone to similar destructive acts. It shows that fanaticism may be a form of mental affliction which may even be detectable externally by a trained observer.
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Mark-John K. Sep 11, 2006, 10:02am EDT
Damn... Wake up, Fools, this is NOT a Religious War...this is a clash of civilizations! One Modern and peaceful, the other sub-human and from the 7th Century. For our sake we had better wake up to the truth, and be victorious. I pity women and those who survive if we lose.

mark-john K
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Ian Thorpe Sep 11, 2006, 11:56am EDT
Well if being controversial and provocative gets me all these comments to deal with I'll think twice before I do it again!
Serious folks, because Gather STILL (six months after I and others suggested it) does not offer a "Reply To This Comment" facility I am going to take these replies of line and post my reaction to the points raised as an article. I will message everybody who has replied when I'm done.

Thanks again for your interest, a couple of quick points:
"not all arabs are terrorists but all terrorists seem to be arabs." The IRA, those well known (Irish Catholic) Muslims have already been mentioned but we should not forget the Irish (Protestant) Muslims of the UDF, UDA, UDV and other splinter groups. Perhaps also we should consider the Basque Seperatist Movement ETA in Spain, that Japanese group who did the poison gas attack on the Tokyo metro, the Tamil Tigers in Southern India, The Lord's Revolutionary Army operating in Kenya, Uganda, Ethiopia and southern Sudan and numerous others. Communist, fascist, christian muslim, hindu, shinto, various nationalist movements around the world
Muslims one and all - NOT!

All comments are welcome but intelligent ones are more welcome. Know what I mean.
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David H. Sep 11, 2006, 1:27pm EDT
" Muslims one and all - NOT!"

All those groups you mentioned are indeed terrorists. Yet there is a difference. They are tiny organizations whose stated intent is to obtain control of their immediate local. The Muslim extremists on the other hand have the stated intent of forcing their religion on the entire world.

Your post is along the lines of not worrying about rabid dogs because mosquitos bight too.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but to ignore the history of Islam which is largely violent, largely repressive, and clearly moving that direction arounf the world once more is not only to fail to learn the lessons of history, but to condemn the rest of us to reliving it with you.
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Bruce ! Sep 11, 2006, 2:23pm EDT
David,
That is a good comment, Bravo
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libramoon C. Sep 11, 2006, 2:41pm EDT
Tell that to my sisters in old Salem and their ilk.

______________
"Example; a witch way back when was a person who supplied poison for the purpose of assassination and was not to be tolerated."
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David H. Sep 11, 2006, 4:25pm EDT
...sigh
libramoon, that was my point. That "witch" meant something different when the old testament was written than what it means today....or what it meant in old Salem.
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libramoon C. Sep 11, 2006, 5:58pm EDT
...sigh

David, that was my point: that even if you say and others say it meant something different, the witches were still burned, terrorized, by "well-meaning" christians.

-----------------
"...sigh
libramoon, that was my point. That "witch" meant something different when the old testament was written than what it means today....or what it meant in old Salem. "
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Jennifer K. Sep 11, 2006, 6:36pm EDT
Wow, Ian. Even if everyone dislike what you said, or only pieces of it...I would say this was a GREAT article because it illicited so much of a response! I found you through (above) libramoon. Reading through the threads of this article also proved fascinating and informative.

The reason this topic fascinates me is because...well...religious history fascinates me, yes, but in particular TURKEY fascinates me. I am considered to be in an "interfaith" relationship (more names for things, hell we might go down in history, eh?). When I tell people he is Turkish...oh, boy! The reactions I get are....interesting.

I try to open peoples' minds if they are too ignorant. Often I say, "oh, come on! You know me! I can sniff a cult out from infinity and thereafter, if anyone can! He's not a freaking terrorist!"

Anybody who knows me, (of Buddhist leanings and fully a humanist), usually listens. They also don't like being told that they need to get out more. Explore different cultures and languages and arts and yes, research the faiths. Read and reach out and open their minds.

Don't get me wrong. I get google alerts ALLL DAAAY LOOONG about what's up news-wise from muslim international. I am aware of the dangers of traveling to the country. Yet it adds up to the same in the end. I am pleased to feel safe in this country and could give two ****s if they want to spy on me. It's all good! And I know just as well I might travel in some large American city and get gunned down by a gang crossfire. I have never feared traveling anywhere and have always been safe, even when traveling solo. Which is to me the best way to travel--solo, that is.

It's expensive. It's clogging things up, I am sure. I mean, I can't take a tube of toothpaste with me. Bummer. I can't take my perfumes and oils. Bummer. So what????????

I can get it all there. I have it when I get back! I never complain about airport security. And maybe if I DO hear people say "what do i look like a terrorist" I DO SAY "what does one look like, exactly?"

This comes from being italian and light-haired and light-eyed. I am always asked about my nationality.

It's annoying, at best. The words of warnings and ignorant (not knowing) exclamations.
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David H. Sep 11, 2006, 6:46pm EDT
OK libramoon, answer this then.

I have debated, countless times, in this forum and in others, what various quotes from the old and new testament mean. Sometimes I was the teacher, and sometimes the student. Every debate over Islamic extremism winds up in quote after quote from the testaments and from the Quran. BUT:

Not one single time when I quoted the Quran to support my argument that violence and intolerance are imbedded in Islam... Not once... did anyone respond with an explanation of the quote from Quran that showed a different intent. Not once has anyone said, David, you don't understand, what such and such a word meant at that time was x so your interpretation should result in y. Not once.

When I point out that the word "witch" means something different today, you point out that no knowing this is what allowed "well meaning" Christians to burn witchs in Salem. True enough.

But when I point out that the Quran requires Muslims to kill Hindus, you would think that SOMEONE would jump in and say "hold on Dave, you don't understand the context that was written in". But nobody does.

There's over a billion Muslims in the world, most of them supposefly moderate. You would think just one of them might jump in and explain it to me.

Why do you suppose that is?
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libramoon C. Sep 11, 2006, 8:58pm EDT
I'm sorry, David, I have not read the Quran. I do know that christians have been terrorists, though. If misinterpreting a word makes it ok to torture, kill and terrorize innocent people, it hardly matters what the true interpretation should be, don't you think?
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David H. Sep 11, 2006, 9:26pm EDT
Oh my God. Oh my dear God.
OF COURSE IT MATTERS.

If the Quran does not support violence and repression then the moderates will eventually prevail. If it does, then the moderates cannot prevail and religious Muslims are by default dangerous people.

How can you ask such a question?
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