Unconditional Love

Great Topic. Yes, I believe in unconditional love. As you said the love for my children is unconditional. I think the hardest think with unconditional love is believeing that someone could love us unconditionally as God has done

Yes Cheryl -
Read Pierre Teilhard de Chardin "On Love" if you havent already - -oh and also .....maybe if humans are unsure of how to do this they should ask their Dog [ I am not joking!] xx L

or try this book of his:
The Phenomenon of Man (1955)
Love alone is capable of uniting living beings in such a way as to complete and fulfill them, for it alone takes them and joins them by what is deepest in themselves.

All we need is to imagine our ability to love developing until it embraces the totality of men and the earth.
A universal love is not only psychologically possible; it is the only complete and final way in which we are able to love.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

Cheryl
The Corintians verse you reference is a description of love that I understand to be a model. It is perfect love and would required perfection, not just in an instant, but indefinately. Such love is not humanly possible in behavioral terms, only by grace can it be known and percieved. Even the most loyal of dogs will be turned by hunger or fear.

Thanks Ludo for the Pierre Teilhard de Chardin reference. I will go take a look.

Unconditional love is easy we only make it difficult by thinking its something it's not.
You cannot have or understand unconditional love unless you first have it for yourself. Loving someone that abuses you is conditional love of the highest sort. It means that you NEED something from that person in order to validate who you are, and that is based entirely on negative conditions.
Unconditional love goes both ways, the other person must love you unconditionally.
If someone wishes you dressed better and would love you more that is conditional.
If someone wishes you were a better cook that is conditional
If you looked better
If you loved better
If you smiled more
The list goes on.
It must begin with self, it is accepting yourself as you are knowing that while you may desire to be more you are complete

At the risk of selfpromotion, read my Agape of a few months back. Also an interesting excercise you might find useful. Take 13 Cor and subsittute the word I eg
I am patient etc. See how you make out.

God freely gives us love and life, God takes the pressure off of us. The reason you have a problem with unconditional love is because you don't understand Gods gift

you couldn;t have better timing...

my 18 year old decided to move out today.. I gave her 2 options.. my rules or go live some where else.

I still love her.. she drives me crazy but God help me I love her

Such interesting comments!

Ludo...thank you for the reference. I will definitely have a look.

Douglas....what you said makes sense. Perfect love requires us to be perfect and that can only come about throught the grace of God.

Anthony...Good points. We cannot love anyone else until we learn to love ourselves.

John...I will definitely read your Agape. Thanks for the referral. I'll let you know what I think..

Joe....I don't have "problem" with unconditional love. And I most definitely do understand God's gift of unconditional love to us. I was speaking about our capacity to love unconditionally.

Mandi...I feel for you. I've had to have that same conversation with two of my children in the past. Its hard to let go, but its a choice we have to give them......praying they will make good decisions.

This is very true, it is hard to love people and not expect something from them. Even from our children we expect, love, respect, and honesty. We learn to love unconditionally by praying for those we love and for our enemies and those that have let us down. I said pray for, not about. Everyday re-dedicate your life to the work of the Lord.

First, thank you for this article you've written. Secondly, I do believe in the power of prayer and unconditional love. Your children as our son is perhaps one of the best examples of unconditional love - no matter what they do, and this has been one heck of a week for us, w/our son, the love is there and it is unconditional. Mandi, I understand how you feel and it'll get better...
Thanks to all that listed things to read, and don't forget the "other" parts of our familys that we give and receive unconditional love from - our furbabys! With God, all things are possible..

Putting God on a side burner for the moment, from my perspective, the Church makes it all but impossible for most people to experience unconditional love, or to give it. The Church itself, and many of their leaders are guilty of some of the most egregious sins of this world in which we reside, and they preach a bigotry of the worst kind, moral superiority over your fellow man/woman. Within that context, how can one be open to unconditional love...you've already been programed to judge your fellow inhabitants of this world with a moral ruler...the most notable of current example is gay marriage...who are church goers to decide that their heterosexual relationships are in some fashion morally superior to the relationships of a gay couple? Do you really think an all loving God is going to keep them (gays)out of heaven, would want to deny them happiness here on earth?

The Church would have us believe that children are better off within a home with a mother and a father. With all due respect to the church, as an abuse survivor here, I would have by far preferred to have been raised by two loving, giving, caring gay people, than to have been raised in the supposed NORMAL family to which I belonged. (yes, we were church goers, and yes, the minister knew what was going on) A Male/Female (traditional) household does not guarantee a better environment in which a child should be raised. Yet, most church goers belong that, want to legislate their brand of morality on others, force their idea of NORM on every one else, and in that they end any chance they might have of knowing unconditional love.

I dont know where people come up with the idea of "unconditional love". I know that it makes people feel good to believe in such a concept: yet i cannot find this concept in scriptures. Think about this: if God's love was truely unconditional, than no one would ever be put in Hell! Nor would there be any consequenses for our sin's. There would be no sickness: for God would heal everyone because of His unconditional love: There would be nothing to fear from God whatsoever! But the fact is that God has placed conditions upon us: His creation that we must meet if we are to experiance HIs love in our hearts! God does punish people for there un-repentant sins! and God does put people in hell for their sins! And you know what God has not made the road of salvation an easy one! Jesus said to strive to enter the narrow gate. For straight is the way and narrow is the path that leads to life and few there be that find it! Salvation is given to those who forsake the pleasures of sin that this world offers in order to follow Jeusus whole heartedly. And you can forfeit your salvation if you fail to walk with God on a daily basis. i am going to post a study on this subject. If you want to know what Gods requirements are for salvation: please see my article titled 'the secret of love, joy, and peace.' In this article i have spelled out the requirements for salvation with the scriptures given that support each point.

peace

Porgie, The true test of unconditional love is forgiving the unforgivable. The church has made some awful mistakes like endorsing slavery as welll as the mor recent ones. She needs if be forgiven just like every one else does.

I feel that if we can love ourselves unconditionally,and accept ourselves for our flaws,and beauty,we can love uncondionally,and it will come back to us.I feel this is possible,and a two way street.Whatever you send out,you will recieve back.

Jim S

Why bother. It has been done thousands of time by truly great writers over the centuries , Voltaire Rousseau, Sartre

John:

Sorry, do not buy into that whole FORGIVENESS routine. Ranks right up there with turning the other cheek. There are certain crimes so egregious as not to deserve forgiveness, and the church counseling survivors of abuse that they must forgive their abusers is a nefarious and unforgivable crime....how many Christians have been abused over again because they followed that supposed SAGE advice? In fact, this very theory of forgiveness is what allowed the Catholic Church to foster and breed so many pedophiles...there was NO ACCOUNTABILITY within a system that hid the abusers because they had been forgiven for their sins by higher ups in the church who just moved them to a new church to start all over again.

I totally agree whit you! I'am sponsoring a child and never seen him but on picture but not his family,I keep them in mind and in prayers,it's a good feeling to me,caring for someone whit your best is unconditional to me besides of loving my kids and family!

Good article!

Porgie, I agree that many in the church...the ones who preach of unconditional love are very often the ones who judge and point fingers and do NOT love unconditionally. I would also like to say, however that you can love a person, but not love their actions. The two are not one in the same. And I would also like to say that ALL Christians are not like the ones you speak of.

Jim....I wanted to respond to your comments most especially here. God does not put us in Hell. We put ourselves in Hell. God gave us the gift of eternal life and the gift is absolutely free, but we must accept the gift. There is no way of earning this gift. There is no behavior that warrants us going to Heaven. It was unconditional love on the cross. Also, there is sickness on the earth because of man rejecting God's love in the Garden of Eden. Once again, He gave us a perfect gift and we did not accept it. God's love is unconditional. That does not mean that he is always going to make the way easy for us because we learn from our mistakes. Sometimes in loving someone, tough love is the best love.

Ernie...thank you for the reminder that we can love without accepting the behaviors of a person..

Porgie.....I believe that forgiveness is very often misunderstood. Forgiveness does not mean you are telling a person..."It's okay that you hurt me....and feel free to do it again." Forgiveness does not even mean that you have to continue in a relationship with the person. Forgiveness is simply letting go of the bitterness inside so that you can move on. Forgiveness is much more for the sake of the forgiver than for the one being forgiven. When a person does not forgive, bitterness takes root in their heart and as a result, the person relives the offense over and over again.

Cheryl:

1. You speak of unconditional love, and God's gift in the Garden of Eden...actually, if you look at that gift, there were CONDITIONS attached to that gift...otherwise, the eating of the apple would not have been an issue.

2. I know all about forgiveness, but am also wise enough to know there are people who do not deserve forgiveness. One such example are those who perpetrated the attacks on the World Trade Centers.

As much as some would like it to be so, life and religion do not fit in nice neat little boxes, there are always the proverbial exceptions to the rules, and then you have those who twist and manipulate religion into something vile and fetid...look at the situation right now with the Mormon priest out west who was taken into custody last week, or the thousands of Catholic Priests who were molesting children.

Moving on...survivors never fully move on, those wounds may heal up, but the scars never go away, their experiences shaping and tinting their view of the world around them until the day they die...that is reality, and forgiveness as you define it is NOT going to change that reality.

Like it or not, everything has conditions...some in the form of demands, other far more subtle, but there none the less. Even your supposed God's great gift of eternity in heaven has conditions attached to it, even if you choose not to see or admit them. Go eat and apple and think about it.

Porgie.....being a survivor of childhood sexual abuse (that lasted for eight years), I do know about the scars of which you speak. And the forgiveness to which I speak is what enabled me to move forward into healing. But I also recognize that everyone's situation is different and everyone's journey is different, so I respect your opinion here.

Also, in regard to the "conditions' God laid out in the Garden of Eden. I see the free will he gave us as unconditional love.....not conditions. If he had forced himself upon us, that would not have been loving. He gave us a choice.....and in my mind, that is the most loving thing He could have done. And the thing is...even after the fall in the garden, God still loved Adam and Eve. Yes, they had consequences in regard to the choice they made....but it never changed God's love for them.

there is no such thing as unconditional love......

Ernie, At the end of the story of the prodigal son the father states: Luke 15:24
24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry. NKJV

This statement tells us that while the prodigal son was gone from his home, his father considered him to be 'dead'. It was only when the prodigal returned to his father that he regained his life. (or regained his salvation.) Thus the father did not consider him his son as long as he was away from home. For the father considered his son to be 'dead'!
Hence we see in this story an example of how someone can lose their salvation and regain it!

Cheryl,

You said; "God does not put us in Hell. We put ourselves in Hell." I am sorry but I just have too much of a hard time believing this statement. I mean hear we are on the day of judgment. God has decided to cast you into hell because He has found you to be unfit for his kingdom. So now are you going to walk over to the lake of fire and throw your self in? I think not! The only way that you will actually be put into the lake of fire is by Gods command and by His power!

Then you state: "God gave us the gift of eternal life and the gift is absolutely free" This concept of absolutely free salvation does not exist in the Bible. Salvation cost's you the pleasures of sin! Jesus said:

Matt 16:24-26
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
NKJV

And in the new testament we read:

1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. NKJV

James 4:4
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. NKJV

Then you state: God's love is unconditional

I am sorry; but if that were true than there would be no one who is condemned to hell. And I am afraid that the bible makes it plain that the vast majority of people on earth are going to hell. So there are indeed conditions that must be met in order to be saved! I have outlined these conditions in previous posts: and I have recently posted an in-depth study on how a true Christian can forfeit their salvation and end up going to hell. In this study you will learn the conditions that God has made concerning what is necessary for us to keep the gift of salvation that He has given us!

Cheryl I don't blame you for wanting to believe in 'unconditional love' as it eases your conscience concerning your sins. But there in lye's the danger of this false doctrine! For it can dull your conscience and make you insensitive to the Holy Spirit's conviction in your heart. And that is dangerous to the point that it can cost you your salvation.

The Bible says that it is by the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil. The false doctrine of unconditional love strips that fear of god away from people. The Bible also says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge! In other words; You have not yet begun to have true knowledge or wisdom until you first have learned how to fear the Lord.

Now to a certain small degree it can be said that God's love is unconditional. In the sense that he does in fact love all of His creation. But rest assured it is gods will that everyone of His creation turn from their sins and commit their lives to serving Him. It is His will that everyone come to him through the terms that He has set forth! And be assured that we can not come to Him on any other terms! Those who refuse to come to Him on His terms will indeed be cast into Hell for eternity!

Please read my posts on these subjects as it is a matter of life and death!

Jim

Jim....I do see your point. And I see it is a matter we will just have to agree to disagree upon.

As far as Hell goes...God has given us His word....and has offered the gift of salvation to everyone for many many years. If, on that day of judjment, we have not accepted that gift...it is nobody's fault but our own.

I would like to say that you are incorrect about my reasons for believing in the unconditional love of God. It is not to "ease my conscience". I do not need to live in a spirit of fear and shame, for my Lord died on the cross for my sins. They are erased. And when I sin, He knows and draws me to repentance. I do not live with a guilty conscience...for if I did, then that would mean my Lord died in vain. I believe in the unconditional love of God for one reason....I have experienced it...time and time again.

Cheryl:

Freedom of choice, unconditional love...did you CHOSE to be abused? Does a truly compassionate and all knowing God turn his back on our abuse in the name of FREEDOM OF CHOICE? Does he sit on his throne, and say something like "GEE, I hate watching this unfold, such a sweet innocent child, but DAMN, have to give freedom of choice here."

I know there is something FAR GREATER than me, a cosmic force or energy stream in which we all somehow co-exist....but if there is a God as you see him/her, I have a few words for him/her on Judgement Day.

Porgie.....No, I did not choose to be abused. But unfortunately, someone chose to abuse me. I have never felt that God turned His back on me. He was with me every step of the way, helping me to be strong....helping me to cope. I have no regrets over anything that happened to me. I am the person I am today because of what I went through. I have been able to reach out to others who suffered through the same things as I did. I don't have all the answers. All I know is that God loves me. I can tell you are in a lot of pain due to whatever you have suffered. I pray that one day your suffering will be eased.

He knows and draws me to repentance

this sentance shows that what you experiance is not unconditional love; but rather mercy and love given when you repent!

As far as free will goes. God has given us free will to doanything we so desire! But He has also given punishments and blessings for our actions! For example to the sexual immoral he has given the STD's (aids included) And for other sins he gives out things like the flue, and other illneses. And then he uses hurricans, floods, tornadoes, earth quakes, etc to punish people in mass. To those who please god He protects them from all harm! (I personnally have experianced this protection on many occasioins.) And he fills them with His love joy and peace on a daily basis! In fact the #1 way to know that you are indeed in a right relationship with God is to be in a constant state of love and joy! If you are not in a constant state of love and joy, you are not walking whth God! And you have things in your life that you need to repent of.

I pray that everyone of you would repent and come into the fullness of Joy that God wants you to have!

Peace.

Dear Jim....I will also keep you in my prayers.

I do not believe that God doles out punishment to people. Many innocent people get STD's who have committed no sexual sin. Every human being gets sick. Illness is not based on whether we repent or not. And wow...to say that God punishes people through hurricanes and natural disasters and "to those who please God he protects them from all harm", I beg to differ. Tell this to the people who were victims of Hurricane Katrina.....or to the many people who suffered and died on 9-11. Tell this to the many Christians who have died the death of a martry. Being called to a life in Christ does not mean we are automatically protected from "all harm". It means that we are ready to die for the cause if need be...and that is often the case.

Ok, I know one woman whos husband had an affair and she did not know about it! Her husband contracted Hiv from the woman that he had the affair with. She is a very devout christian. And she had sex with him for several years after the affair had ended. Then one day her husband had to have some blood work done for some medical reasons. Thats when he discovered that he had AIDS. He told his wife and she was emmediatly tested to see if she had AIDS. The test came back negative! which means that she did not have AIDS! the only thing that can account for this is tht God miracously protected her from getting the desease!

There was a pentacostal minister back in the 1800's who was in some country (I dont remember which one. its been several years ago since i heard the story.) Any way, In the city that he was in the black plague was killing hundreds of people. This godly minister was actively caring for the sick and burying the dead. Then finally Some doctors arrived with the new vaccine that had recently come out and started started treating people. This of course ended the plague. But the docters were amazed at this minister! for they could not figure out why he had not gotten the plague as well. So they asked him about it. His reply was, 'Gentlemen, I am a christian. and God called me to come here to minister to these people. and God has promised me in psalm 91 that he would protect me from pestalances. As a result of God's protection; there is no way that i can get the plague! You can put the desease on my hand and then put my hand under a microscope and watch it die!"

Now concerning tornados and the lilke. I have heard several testamonies from pentacostal christian how that when a tornado was comming down their street that they would pray and ask God to protect their house or church. And how that when the tornado got to their neighbors house it would lift up off the ground; go over their house and land on their neighbors house on the other side of them; and when the storm was over their house or church was the only ones left standing, having very little or no damage at all! But God only perforned these miricles for those who were living holy lives and had the faith to trust Him to protect them.

Now lets look at what the Bible says:

Heb 12:4-11
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
NKJV

1 Cor 11:27-32
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

Deut 11:26-28
26 "Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, NKJV

Deut 30:15-20
15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, NKJV

Deut 28:15-68
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20 "The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The LORD will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. 25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you. 30 You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The LORD will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 The LORD will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods--wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the LORD will drive you. 38 You shall carry much seed out to the field and gather but little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land. 43 The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. 45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
47 "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. 52 They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the LORD your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
58 "If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues--great and prolonged plagues--and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, will the LORD bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God. 63 And it shall be, that just as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64 "Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known--wood and stone. 65 And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, 'Oh, that it were evening!' And at evening you shall say, 'Oh, that it were morning!' because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. 68 And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you." NKJV

Rev 2:20-24
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

Acts 12:20-24
20 Now Herod had been very angry with the people of Tyre and Sidon; but they came to him with one accord, and having made Blastus the king's personal aide their friend, they asked for peace, because their country was supplied with food by the king's country. 21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died. 24 But the word of God grew and multiplied. NKJV

Acts 5:1-11
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?" She said, "Yes, for so much." 9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. NKJV

Rom 1:18-19
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
NKJV

Rom 1:21-28
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. NKJV

Thats just some of the negative scriptures that I can give!

Heres some of the good ones:

Ps 91:1-92:1
He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress;My God, in Him I will trust."
3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence. 4 He shall cover you with His feathers,And under His wings you shall take refuge;His truth shall be your shield and buckler. 5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,Nor of the arrow that flies by day, 6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,And ten thousand at your right hand;But it shall not come near you. 8 Only with your eyes shall you look,And see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge,Even the Most High, your dwelling place, 10 No evil shall befall you,Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling; 11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,To keep you in all your ways. 12 In their hands they shall bear you up,Lest you dash your foot against a stone. 13 You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.
14 "Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;I will set him on high, because he has known My name. 15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;I will be with him in trouble;I will deliver him and honor him. 16 With long life I will satisfy him,And show him My salvation."
NKJV

Ps 27
The LORD is my light and my salvation;Whom shall I fear?The LORD is the strength of my life;Of whom shall I be afraid? 2 When the wicked came against me To eat up my flesh,My enemies and foes,They stumbled and fell. 3 Though an army may encamp against me,My heart shall not fear;Though war should rise against me,In this I will be confident.
4 One thing I have desired of the LORD,That will I seek:That I may dwell in the house of the LORDAll the days of my life,To behold the beauty of the LORD,And to inquire in His temple. 5 For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion;In the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me;He shall set me high upon a rock. 6 And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies all around me;Therefore I will offer sacrifices of joy in His tabernacle;I will sing, yes, I will sing praises to the LORD.
7 Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice!Have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When You said, "Seek My face,"My heart said to You, "Your face, LORD, I will seek." 9 Do not hide Your face from me;Do not turn Your servant away in anger;You have been my help;Do not leave me nor forsake me,O God of my salvation. 10 When my father and my mother forsake me,Then the LORD will take care of me.
11 Teach me Your way, O LORD,And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies. 12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;For false witnesses have risen against me,And such as breathe out violence. 13 I would have lost heart, unless I had believed That I would see the goodness of the LORDIn the land of the living.
14 Wait on the LORD;Be of good courage,And He shall strengthen your heart;Wait, I say, on the LORD! NKJV

Isa 54:14-17
14 In righteousness you shall be established;
You shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear;
And from terror, for it shall not come near you.
15 Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me.
Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake.

16 "Behold, I have created the blacksmith
Who blows the coals in the fire,
Who brings forth an instrument for his work;
And I have created the spoiler to destroy.
17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
And their righteousness is from Me,"
Says the LORD. NKJV

It should now be evident to you that God punishes the wicked and protects and provides for the righteous!

I know that many church's do not teach these things: But that is because we are in the last days and there are many false teachers, and false prophets! Most of the church's that i have been to are far from the the teachings of the Bible. 'Easy beleivism' is what they teach; and such teachings have no place in Biblical Christianity!

I hope that you have a great day!

Jim

Jim....I did not say that God NEVER protects us. I was merely challenging your statement...."to those who please God he protects them from all harm". This blanket statement is simply not true. If it was then no Christian would ever get sick or suffer in any way. And there are Christians suffering each day all around the world. Some suffer just for the very fact that they are Christians. Missionaries are tortured and killed daily.

I have both been persecuted for my faith and been miraculously protected from persecution and harm! The times when God did not protect me was when there was sin in my life: the times when he did protect me was when i was walking in obediance to His will!

There have been times that I have been sick. And in every instance where I have been sick it was the direct result of god chastising me for some sin in my life! I recently had a brain tumor. God had given it to me for chastisement of a sin. After three days of pain, I could not sleep, God healed me! He chose to heal me because I kept on praiseing him for loveing me enough to chastise me for my sin! (I have the medical proof to prove this miracle!)

Let me share with you some of the miracles:

1. I preached the Gospel to 6 muslim Imams. They wanted to kill me as it is their beleif that it is their obligation to kill all jews, christians, and infidels. But God caused them to just disapear! One second they were there; the next second they were gone!

2. A vehicle that was following me one day on the freeway just disapeared!

3. 2 people on 2 seperate occasioins wanted to do me bodily harm. My angle physically held their arms so that they could not hit me!

3. God miraculously protected my battallion and I in the Gulf War. (the first one.) Not one person had so much as a bullet scratch even though we engaged the enemy no less than 16 times!

This is proof that God can and will protect us from harm and persecution if we please Him and have the faith that he will protect us.

But we have the right to refuse this protection if we wish. And God has the right to refuse to protect us if we are not pleasing in His sight. And God has the right to refuse to protect us I it is His will for us to glorify Him through a particular marterdom. Through out the centuries you will find countless testamonies of Christians who were miraculously protected. From Daniel in the lions den, to Shadrack. Meshack, and Abenigo in the firery furnace; to St. John who the emperior tried to boil in oil but failed!

But I say that the vast majority of what christians suffer is due to their own sin's. Some suffer for the sake of righteousness, and are persecuted for their faith. I have sffered much persecution for my faith. I have lost jobs and been kicked out of carnal chruches because of my obediance to christ. God could have prevented these things; but He, in these instances, had a different plan.

Their is much more to be said on this subject. But I have given you just a little bit of my testamony and the testamony of others and, most importantly, the scriptures. Now concerning persecution: their is much that the scriptures say on it that I have not gone into hear. Thats another subject that perhaps we can address at another time.

Have a great day.

Thank you, Jim....for sharing your miraculous true stories with us. Its always a joy to hear these accounts. I, too, have had miracles occur, but some occurred when I least deserved them to happen, and when I was not walking as closly with God as I should have been. But the miracle was such an evidence to me of God's grace, mercy,and forgiveness...that it helped to set me back on the right track. And even then, I walk in sin daily....because I am a sinner. And when I think I'm not, then that is a sin in and of itself. Only through grace am I saved. Peace and blessings to you.........

Yet to walk without sin is what God has called us to do!

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. NKJV

1 John 2:1
2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. NKJV

1 John 3:3-10
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, NKJV

Rom 8:2-14
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

Have a great day!

With all due respect Jim, think you are....a little over the top with your condemnation of man. What ever force rules this universe, governs the cosmos, do not see that force as a retalitory and mean spirited creature...perhaps misguided, or maybe too busy to keep and eye on things when it was most needed, but not vindictive, not striking people down with horrid diseases based on thier choice of a mate or sexual partner.

Porgie, whith all due respect; your understanding of the Creator of the universe is woefully lacking! Not only does the Bible, which is the book that reveals to us how God does things, tell us plainely that what I have said is true; but it is the only rational explation for why we have all these deseases! If the deseases are not Gods punishments for sin; then why do they exist? No reason? not likely! The Bible gives us the reason why deseases exist: and they exist for the purpose of punishing sinful people so that they might see that they need God! And God can and will heal them once they repent of their transgressions.

Over the top? not hardly! Rational? absolutelty! My expeiance is in sink with these truths as well.

The God that you wish to believe in is not the God that the Bible tells us about! Please read the scriptures that I have quoted. Because if you are right: than no one has anthing to worry about! But If I am right: then you are in grave danger if you do not repent!

Have a great day

Jim....I would be curious to know your opinion of the cross and how it relates to humanity and our salvation. According to what I'm hearing you say, God punishes us for the sins that his son already took our punishment for. And if that is the case, then Jesus died in vain.

It is not my intention to be "right". But I do disagree with your vision of God. The God I see is loving, merciful, and forgiving. Yes, we are called to obey. But it also says in the Bible that we were given the ten commandments for the purpose of showing us that we cannot keep them. They were given to us to show us our sin and to reveal our brokeness. We are only perfected through Christ. There is not a day that goes by that I do not sin in some form or fashion, whether it be something big or in a selfish or vain thought that runs through my mind. According to your belief, I should be in constant pain and suffering......being punished each and every day for my sinfulness. Your way of thinking seems to leave very little room for the true heart condition or for God's mercy.

Ok, what you have asked is a very large subject: I will try to keep it short. In order to properly understand the blood of Christ and how it is applied to us: you must first understand what the old covenant was. In the old covenant, if you sined you brought an animal to the priest. Then you confessed your sin to the priest and he transferred your sin to the animal. Then he killed the animal. And the animals blood that was shed would make atonement for your sins, and appease God's wrath that was against you. But the process had to be done with sincere repentance in the heart of the one who was seeking Gods forgiveness, or else God would not accept his offering and his sin would not be forgiven.

Now when Jesus laid down his life on the cross. He became the only sin offering that God would accept for our sins. But this sacrifice is never applied to anyone unless they first repent! Without repentance; there is no forgiveness.

But let us look at some new testament stories and see if God operates on a principle of unconditional love.

Let's look at Acts 5:1-11
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. 7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?" She said, "Yes, for so much." 9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things. NKJV

Ananias and Sapphira were Christians. Yet when they lied to God: God struck them dead! Does this sound like unconditional love to you? Did the blood that Christ shed protect them from God striking them dead? No! In this case: God did not even give them the chance to confess their sins and repent! They were His children and he expected them to live according to His law's. and they obviously knew that what they were doing was wrong. They were willfully disobeying God and even though they were God's children, having been bought with the blood of Christ; yet Christs sacrifice failed to prevent God from executing them!

Lets look at Rev 2:19-23
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. NKJV

In this particular case, God does give her time to repent of her deeds. But she refuses to repent. So what does God do? Does he just accept her and love her unconditionally? No! He says that He is going to "cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death." But He does offer them forgiveness if they will repent of their sinful deeds.

So we see that blood of Jesus is only applied to someone if they repent!

I could give a lot more scriptures to prove the point. But I have already done so in other posts. And I said that I would keep this short.

Have a great day!

Jim

Jim...thank you for answering my question. I agree that we must repent before forgiveness. I also believe, however...that when you are "saved" and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, you come into a very special relationship with God, and your entire way of thinking changes. At that point you are no longer living for yourself, but for God. And if you do slip and sin....which we all do....I do not think God punishes, for our heart will be contrite and we will have a spirit of repentance. We may reap the consequences of our actions, but I do not believe this is punishment from God. If he punishes Christians in this manner, then I am way overdue.

Jim:

Trust me, I know FAR MORE about that Bible you spout than I admit to...spent the better part of eight years working on the campus of a theological Seminary in Ohio, and stayed up many of nights in heated discussion over various passages. I can get my King James Chair Reference Bible out and go one on one with the best of them...which proves nothing.

Almost every religion in the world seems to embrace about ninety five percent of what the Bible/Koran and other holy books have to say, tent to agree with each others teaching....it's that other five percent they all cannot agree upon that causes war, and inhumanity to man.

The fact that your life has provided you with at best antedotal reinforcement of your own flawed interpretations of scripture does not make your version truth. It's like a smoker justifying his/her habit based on the fact that they Grandfather was a smoker and lived to be 93.

The over tired arguement of IF I AM RIGHT does not work, it's trying to force your religion and beliefs on others using fear and intimadation. It's a SUCKER BET, a proverbial three card monty ponzi scam. The Mormons will tell you there path is the only truth road to heaven, and that they have the LAST AND GREATEST book that supercedes both the old and new testaments, kind of Bible on steroids. Study the Koran, it is very similiar to the Bible, yet the Muslims would have you believe that there is the ONE TRUE PATH to Enlightenment and Heaven. The CAtholics....not sure, think they just like to molest children, and aid and abet Illegals in coming to America. They all want to hold that hammer over your head and threaten you with hell and eternal damnation if you DO NOT DO AS THEY SAY....funny, since scripture actually leads me to believe that any where you can find two or three gathered in his name you have church, religion and praise...so, who even needs a church? I'd much rather look for God out in the woods will sitting quietly waiting for a squirrel to scamper up onto my leg to say hello.

You keep on believing in your vengeful God...you may end up in heaven, but what a miserable way to get there.

Ok I am going to answer cheryl first. Heres what the scripture says:

Heb 12:2-14
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,And scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12 Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. NKJV

1 Cor 11:28-32
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. NKJV

Based upon these scriptures when Christians sin god rebukes and chatises. And he chastizes with 3 things: weakness, sickness, and death. God's word says it: that settles it!

Have a great day

Jim.....thanks for the good discussion. When it all comes down to it, each person's relationship with God is extremely personal. And I have faith that God will open my heart to whatever truths He would like for me to know. I still do not see Him as the vengeful God tht you see. If, in time, He wishes to reveal that side of Himself to me, then I am sure that He will. Likewise, He will reveal His loving mercy and forgiveness to You when and if He choose to. Peace..

Porgy

Trust me, I know FAR MORE about that Bible you spout than I admit to...spent the better part of eight years

Only eight years? I have been involved with intensive bible study for over 33 years now! and i have debated theology with the best of them! I say that you do not know the bible any where near as well as I do!

All of your debates have not taught you the major differances that Seperates christians from mormons and other cults. So i will spell some of them out for you.

1. Jesus Christ rose from the dead! All of the other religious leaders of the past died and are buried. This fact alone makes Christ the Superior religiouse teacher.

2. When people become genuine christians: they are radicaly changed by the Holy Spirit. They are delivered from alcholism, and all drug addictions. And many of them have radical personality changes! they go from evil people to being kind and careing people instantly! I have seen this transformation take place Hundreds of times over the years. None of the other religions have this life trasforming power in them! When someone becomes a mormon are muslom they do not have this lilfe transformation take place! This fact also places Chritianity on a higher level than the other relilgions!

3. Only in Chirstianity does a person get the ability to cast out demons; heal the sick and perform singns and wonders. Although people involved in satanic cults also can heal the sick; what they do is done through the power of demons. Not the power of God!

Now these three things alone make Christianity the superior religion on the face of this planet. I can give you other evedances as well but this should be enough.

Now my experiance matters a great deal; as I have spent 33 years of my life studying, testing, and praticing christianity. and i can assure you that my beliefs are sound! I know beyond all doupt that you cannot possibly refute even one thing that i teach with the scriptures!

Now if you want to know which christian chruch Is truely God's? Just look for the church that has power! for the scripture say's:

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
NKJV

Luke 10:18-19
18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
NKJV

1 Cor 2:1-5
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
NKJV

1 Cor 4:18-20
19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. NKJV

Therefor if a person or chuch does not have the power of God: they have not yet entered into the kingdom of God: for the kingdom of God is not in word but power! So if all that the chuch that you are attending has to offer is nothign but words and no power: than that chuch is not a true christian church!

Now God has used me to cast out demons, heal the sick, speak in tougues, and prophecy many many times throughout the years! I have God's power operating through me on a regular basis. Do you?!

Have a great day.

Likewise, He will reveal His loving mercy and forgiveness to You when and if He choose to. Peace..

Cheryl I have enjoyed our discusion emensly! And I want to assure you that i do know how patient, kind, and long suffering he can be. God shows mercy on whom he will show mercy. And he does everything in accordance with His own will. In my theology I have it worked out so that the love and mercy of God works hand in hand with the wrath and judgement of God. But It would take a long time to explain it and i just dont have the time right now.

May God richly bless you in all that you do!

Jim

Weren't Jimmy Swaggert and Jimmy Baker Christians, born again?

Laughing as I walk away.

What the two 'Jim's' have to do with anything that we were talking about is beyond me. Your comment makes no sence whatsoever! What two individuals do who claim to be christians does not change anything that i have said! But seeing that you have brought up these two men i will make a breif comment on them:

Jimmy Swaggart: I have only seen a couple of his programs. From what I heard him say on his programs he sounded like a decent preacher. I do not know all that he teaches and therefor i cannot comment on whether or not all of his theology is correct. But I see him as a man who love's God and is doing his best. True; he did commit adultry. All that proves is that he is not perfect! It does nothing to refute what he teaches! the man did puplically confess his sin and, as far as i know, he has not repeated it. (I could be wrong; as i do not follow what is happening in his life.)

Jim Baker: He is doing a pretty good job doing what he does: But if find several things wrong with his theology. I wont go into them here. But he and his wife i do not consider to be true christians. They are people who use christianity as a means to their own ends and not God's ends! In short: they are false teachers and hypocrytes!

But if you are going to be credible in any of our discusions then you need to come up with intelligent aurguments rather than mocking T.V. personalities!

I am not sure if humanity is capable of uncondtional love, I have seen little of it in the world now or in its history. But that is not to say that it is impossible. I think there are some parents(mothers especially) who are capable, and deeply bound loved ones, also maybe capable, and a few other exceptions, but on the whole, I am not sure.