Frist: Border Security Only Immigration Issue To Be Addressed Before Elections

Rob, this is one time I can agree with you. But, the only way to really stop the flow of Mexicans across the border is to get tough on the illegal hiring of illegal immigrants -- but in order to do that, you will have to put the kabosh on some big industrial employers in the agricultural arena and on some wealthy people all over the country. Not much chance of that -- not when Republican lips are sealed to the ___ of the mega wealthy who need peasants to survive.

LOL....I think I like you, George. It's true and no change is better than stupid half-baked decisions. Contrary to popular belief, I DO NOT propose amnesty. I propose responsible, human legislation - the kind that doesn't seen "green" before seeing the faces of those we affect. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know....But if you could only experience this side of the debate - for just a day - no immigration rhetoric - just stories and real people working real hard and struggles and tears because they can't return home to their countries - they would go - if they could. A guest worker program isn't too far off base - many don't want residency or citizenship - they want to build a house, buy some cattle or educate themselves here, go home and build a life. A solid, mutually beneficial arrangement could work....don't you think?

I can't agree with you Jackie. A guest worker program combined with the outsourcing of work to India and China, as well as this nations need to import educated people from other nations for high end jobs, instead of investing in the education and future of OUR OWN people is rapidly destroying what is left of Middle Class America. Illegals and/or guest workers drive DOWN our wages.
The costs to every community that these people force on the communities is high, in education, medical, etc. They are not contributing through tax dollars, they are not paying income tax. They came here illegally, if they cannot respect our laws enough to follow them to come here legally, then why would anyone be willing to trust that they will follow any other of our laws, if it does not suit their purpose.
I agree there are some who do want a better life and are willing to work for it, but we do not have infinate resources and OUR OWN MUST COME FIRST! The betterment of the lives of these people should not and cannot come at the expense of the American Middle Class Tax Payer.

Anne: If I publish the records of the reports to Congress on the now MILLIONS of dollars we have reaped from illegal immigrants - would you consider the data?

If I can prove that the IRS has millions of dollars in funds received from mismatched numbers - would you change your conclusion about how illegals do not pay taxes?

Yes or no....and is anyone else out there interested?

Okay, Anne: Check it out. I found some links related to your belief that illegal immigrants drain our society and give nothing back.

The issue is this: If you will take into account the billions of dollars we reap from this population, you will better understand why our government and the Mexican government does nothing. This basically means that the discrimination is allowed to escalate, we become more and more frustrated - while our government continues to reap the benefits, often passing them on to us - without ever admitting to what they are doing.

They are loathe to rock this boat - this boat generates free money for the people of this nation - but then we ignorant people wouldn't understand, so they remain quiet and let it play out.....

How does that make you feel? It makes me angry. I don't for someone to sit quietly on the sidelines snickering at an argument they instigated.

Do your homework. Google the "Social Security Suspense Files." Google "ITIN numbers and illegal immigrant taxes."

Then come on back and we'll talk.

If there is all this money, then why are all these illegals using federal money to live. Why are hospitals going broke because of the cost of treating illegals.. Down in the world I live in, with SSI income of $850, I can't find low income housing, I can't get food stamps. I live in a farm industry area, with a lot of farm workers, that are also illegals. I am not upset wi th them working when they pay taxes, most of them are paid cash and its hard to follow cash. If there is a surplus of SS money, why are you elling us, tell Congress and the media. Let's get this money out to help all

You are exactly right, Suzann. Problem is, the feds know it's there and occasionally a couple billion will disappear...

The only way to stop our own government is by educating ourselves - which we are doing.

These types of articles have been published before - they are systematically ignored. No one seems to be able to connect the dots.

I'm sure glad you do.

Sincerely,

JB

Bottom line to me is that the border be fixed before anything else. Last time there was an amnesty Congress was supposedly going to fix the problem. They didn't.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fix the border, then talk........
Besides illegal immigrants, you'll see a drop in criminal activity too, such as drugs and smuggling. Not to mention possible terrorist activity.

As Suzann says, if there is all this money you are claiming is provided by these illegals, then why is it so difficult for an American born citizen to receive any assistance at all. When was the last time you visited an assistance office? I was in one not too long ago, and EVERY person in there was a foreigner. I was the ONLY white person, and I was not in there to try to get assistance, I had already been denied, even though I had been unable to work for 2 years. I was referred to that office through a rehab program for job retraining. I am still not working yet, I was denied SSI, and I have medical bills that will most likely not be paid off in my lifetime. In addition, those medical bills have now destroyed my credit, so my dream of ever buying another home will never be more than that. Funny thing though, my husbands tax dollars go to provide those very things to the illegals that "contribute tax dollars". If they are illegal, being paid cash, how do you propose they are paying taxes?
As to your statement that "the IRS has millions of dollars in funds received from mismatched numbers" perhaps you should dig a little further. My husband and I are both over 40, and both of us have worked since our teens, paying taxes and filing income tax returns, and just in the past 5 years, have both received notices from the IRS and social security, claiming incorrect information, such as incorrect birth date or name. There is much more to the mismatched number info, than what you are portraying it as here.
Illegals are now stealing social security numbers from American children as well. If by doing so, they are using it to obtain work and thereby paying taxes, so be it. The taxes they are paying will not help the child who's identity they have stolen, so it is a small contribution to a much more expensive problem.
No matter how you try to turn this, there is much more of a drain on our resources than these people are capable of paying back in what little they may pay in taxes.
I am searching now for some info that proves if they are paying taxes by fraudulent SS numbers, they are also filing tax returns with those same numbers and claiming the same tax credits as the rest of us, and many are getting refunds double and triple what they actually paid in, because of the Earned Income Credit and the Child Tax Credit.
Once again they are committing a crime, they have stolen or created SS numbers, and have filed fraudulent tax returns.

"Anne: If I publish the records of the reports to Congress on the now MILLIONS of dollars we have reaped from illegal immigrants - would you consider the data?"

I am always open to information that allows me to make informed decisions, in which case you must also consider the HUNDREDS of millions SPENT on these same people. Just check the medical facilities alone, along the borders. Those costs have begun hurting those communities that can no longer absorb it.
I am by no means a cold heartless person, but I will see our OWN taken care of, before I will condone amnesty or assistance for these people.

There are many aspects to this whole thing. But, basically we are using illegal immigrants to assist in retaining a permanent peasant class in America because they lower the going wage for everyone. In addition, when doing work down in Honduras in the 1980's it became obvious that the middle class down there were sending their kids to college in America in order to find a spouse and a green card -- we are sapping away the leadership strength in those countries. So long as Mexico knows that it can use the United States as a safety valve -- they will have less incentive to democratize their economy. If you go down in South Texas and look at the ultra high end real estate subdivisions being built, you will find that Upper Class Mexicans are buying luxury homesites in the United States. That cannot be any better for Mexico than the American wealthy who are giving up their citizenship and taking up residency in tax havens is for America. We need to shut those borders, and we need to have strict enforcement of employment laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal aliens. Wal-Mart should have been criminally prosecuted and given a death sentence for what it did with illegal aliens.

OKAY, RECAP. These are the points everyone is making, add anything if I miss it...

1. By Anne: They are not contributing through tax dollars, they are not paying income tax.

2. By Jackie B: Illegals are paying taxes and social security

3. By Suzann S: If there is a surplus of SS money, why are you elling us, tell Congress and the media. Let's get this money out to help all. (Also financial problems of hospitals)

4. John S: Fix the border first and crime will drop in the USA

5. By Anne G: Lack of assistance to Americans in need and hundreds of millions that Hispanics use in social services.

6. By George McNaughton: Permanent peasant class; MX's use of USA as a safety valve; tough hiring laws and strict enforcement; close borders

1. Anne: The FACT is that there an estimated 519 BILLION dollars in the suspense fund for Social Security. No amount of argument can change that fact. To deny it is ignorance and personal opinion toward a race - rather than acceptance of the FACTS.
The suspense fund is not regulated - not a part of our budget and not counted in any accounting done by the feds - and it disappears from time to time.....contact your political leaders for more information.

2. Many, many, many DO pay taxes and they DO pay Soc. Security. Like it or not folks - they do it.

3. Suzann: This takes an OUTCRY of OUTRAGE. This takes many of us asking the same questions. These public conversations help so keep talking.....I agree, some of that 519 BILLION could save hospitals until the feds fix immigration.

4. Do your homework, John. Foreign-born Mexicans account for what percentage of total crime in the USA? When you have the answer, come back and we'll talk...

5. Anne: CALL your social service office. Don't assume that because the room is filled with Hispanics, that they are reaping huge checks and food stamps. First off, mom and dad don't count - foreign born children don't count - only the US born - same as us - only WE count because we have valid social security numbers. There are new laws in place to ensure this remains the case. Before you take your frustrations out on a minority - get the facts.

6. I completely agree, George.

Jackie, I did not dispute the Social Security fund, I did say that if they are illegal and being paid cash the are NOT paying taxes OR social security. That is FACT!
My own husband has worked for companies that chose to pay their people in cash for whatever reason, and there were NO taxes or social security paid!!
If an illegal is being paid cash he IS NOT paying taxes or social security!!!
If they have provided false documention in order to appear "legally eligable to work", then it is either a fraudulent SS number OR a stolen number, both of which add to their "criminal" acts. In that case the taxes they pay are still going to be returned to them when they file their annual tax returns, along with the EIC and Child Tax Credits. Until someone decides to investigate for some reason.
The latest thing is for these people to steal the social security numbers of OUR children. An identity theft that has far reaching and long term consequences for an innocent CHILD!!!

You wanted John to verify for you what percentage of total crime in the US is committed by Foreign-born Mexicans, does that make so much difference? Even 1/2 percent is TOO MUCH especially if they have entered this country illegally.
What's more find out from people living in communities with a high crime rate, and a predominate amount of hispanics, and they will not care what the percentage, just that there is a high crime rate. Check the border states and find out how high it really is!!!
My son-in-law is a police officer in AZ, and he says that the majority of his traffic stops, thefts, domestic violence, etc. etc. are Mexican. He is also surprised by the amount of violence committed by Mexicans toward other Mexicans. Oh, and for your referance my Son-In-Law is Mexican!!! Not an illegal, he was born here, but his parents were LEGAL immigrants!!!

Jackie, you also told me to CALL my social service office. I am not sure what you meant by that, but I went in person because I was required to.
I did not assume ANYTHING, nor did I say Hispanics. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what is written here. I said FOREIGNERS!! There were several Russian Immigrants.
I did not "assume" that they were getting benefits, they were carrying the cards provided to them to obtain their benefits from a local ATM as well as using at a grocery store for food stamps.
Two in particular I KNEW were illegal (I won't specify whether they were Russian or Mexican) because they had attempted to get work with a company for which I was a close friend of the owner!!
Are you so naive as to think that these people cannot or do not forge documentation to obtain a social security number, or just steal one? All the laws in the world do not stop fraud.
You need to get FACTS!!
American born children of Illegal Immigrants should not be entitled to automatic citizenship NOR any benefits!!! If the parent is illegal then the child should not automatically receive citizen status.

Oh, and to quickly address the fact that you do not think there is a high cost brought on by illegal immigration, perhaps you should follow some of the recent news. Beginning in Colorado, many communities are gathering to decide on legal ways to deal with the high cost of Education and Medical care to communities that are inundated with large numbers of illegals.
I for one do not care to pay the tab for them, when I cannot pay for my own medical care, and my childs education is altered because of insufficient funding, due to the number of illegals in the schools. Which is another area that documentation is forged!! If it weren't, then these children would not be able to attend the school in the first place.
I don't take my frustrations out on a minority, I just refuse to be bullied into thinking it's my responsibility to make a better life for someone who did not care enough for the values and morals of the country they wanted to enter, to do so legally.
We do not have infinate resources, nor the room for an infinate number of immigrants, and STRICT immigration enforcement is the only way to control any of it. If they enterred illegally they should not be allowed to stay, nor should they be at the top of the list to return. It is also NOT our responsibility to see to it that they have a better life because they are here. We have plenty of our own American people who should be receiving the aid that you so willingly give to these people.
How many illegals took jobs from citizens in LA and MS? Before I would be helping an illegal stay here, I would tripple my effort to assist someone who was made homeless after Katrina.
My grandmother always said charity begins at HOME!!! Take care of our own FIRST!!!

Anne: We know a percentage of illegal immigrants work off the book - I know of LOTS of farmers who pay one crew leader (legal resident), who in turns gives his workers (illegals) cash. We know about the house cleaning and babysitting and the subcontracting positions who pay cash.

Fact is, Anne, WE KNOW. BUT, did we know about the suspense fund? Did we know about the amount of taxes paid to our government? Did we know they are dying at a much higher rate - on the job and at home? The point here is to lay it all out. You can't make an informed decision if you are 1. highly emotional and 2. misinformed.

THAT is the point. The amount of violence, MX vs. MX is also a fact. The majority of the crimes are unreported because illegals are afraid to call the police.

The effort here, guys, is to rise above the obvious and delve a tad deeper into the issue. Common knowledge, the way I see it is:

1. They arrived illegally.

2. They use a made up social security number to work with a percentage purchasing (from American theives) entire identities.

3. They are mostly hard workers but some come to cause harm, sell drugs, commit crimes.

4. They didn't just suddenly appear. They arrived by walking across the border or sneaking in, by the millions, over a period of 16-20 years.

5. Some illegals have successfully assimilated; own cars, homes, hold long-term positions without proper documentation of longer than ten years.

6. It is impossible to know exactly how many are here now; conservative estimates range from 16 to 20 million illegal immigrants, with the majority from Mexico.

7. Our government has been REALLY silent about this situation. The President, Congress, Senate, Democrats and Republicans --- all of them totter on what to divulge and how to divulge it to the American people.

8. Political leaders are elected using Illegal Immigration as a platform, spreading anger and misinformation to anger typical Americans who rely on our government for information.

SO, having stated all that (Have I missed anything?), where do we go from here?

What are the questions now? Better yet, what are the answers?

Anne: According to federal law, any child is allowed a public education regardless of race, national origin or legal status. That's a federal law. A social security number is not necessary to enroll in ANY public school system.

If you know of two illegal immigrants who are applying as legal residents/citizens of the US, you should report them immediately - then tell us how it goes. You must, however, keep in mind that if these illegals have US born children, the kids are eligible for assistance.

The average education of the majority of illegal immigrants is less than sixth grade. How many sixth graders do you know who can accurately steal identities? Illegals use stolen identities sold by American citizens who steal them from other American citizens. So, in effect, dear: Americans are stealing from Americans and selling our children's id's to illegals. Who are you madder at? The American citizens for stealing them or the illegals for purchasing them? And, perhaps we should mention the root causes of this disaster - we were asleep on the border and greedy for cheap labor.

At one time, we were all from somewhere else. How do you think a law denying citizenship to children born of illegal immigrants will affect the future of our country - think long-term. Yours may have arrived legally...mine were the Irish and one German illegal criminal. Nonetheless, I am here and American.

I see this problem first hand. Where I work no field workers pay any taxes, The hospitol in my town is overloaded with unpaid bills from illegals and legal and illegal residents. These workers are paid in cash here in my town. 80% of all feild workers are illegal, but policy prevents the apprehension of these illegal workers.

This is a letter to Colorado district attorneys from Senator Tom Tancredo (CO) posted on his website just yesterday...

As you may know, Jefferson County District Attorney Scott Storey recently sought and obtained indictments against several individuals who obtained loans for illegal aliens using false identity documents, employment information, and credit histories. The transactions in this initial indictment involved loans for more then thirty homes totaling nearly $7 million.



The scheme that District Attorney Storey has uncovered is not confined to Jefferson County. According to several recent news reports, it is rampant and widespread. CNN recently reported that some $16 million in fraudulent loans have been uncovered in Denver – and at least one government source told The Denver Post that around 20,000 illegal immigrants hold Federal Housing Administration loans in the Denver Metro Area alone.



In Kansas City, two individuals recently plead guilty to securing more than twenty federally backed loans for illegal aliens, and in Utah illegal aliens purchased nearly ninety homes costing the government almost $3 million.



These statistics are troubling – perhaps more troubling, they are likely only the tip of the iceberg. These fraudulent loans lead to increased foreclosures which affects all homeowners. Worse still, this practice allows countless individuals in the country illegally to establish false identities in homeownership. This poses a threat to national security that is not insignificant.



District Attorney Storey has taken an important first step in Colorado in cracking down on crooked elements in the real estate industry that are putting profits before patriotism. I hope that you will consider taking similar steps in your jurisdiction to actively investigate and prosecute unscrupulous individuals who are putting all of us at risk by engaging in this dishonest, illegal, and unfortunately lucrative practice.



Thank you in advance for your consideration.



Sincerely,



/s/

Tom Tancredo, M.C.

Correction: "Congressman" Tancredo (sorry).

http://tancredo.house.gov/default.aspx

I'm going to quote a post I wrote on May 6th of this year:

"Then there's the immigration issue, mentioned above. This one is like a tidal wave, and I'll compare the Republicans to the ships in two movies: "The Posiedon Adventure," and "Krakatoa: East of Java." In "Posiedon," which has a remake coming out this week, the ship takes the wave on the side, and rolls over. This is what will happen if the Republicans avoid decisive action on this issue. I also blame Pres. Bush for not leading in the right direction on this issue.

In "Krakatoa," the ship turns into the huge tidal wave released by the titular volcano's eruption, and survives intact. This would symbolize a better course of action by the Republicans (especially with Hillary on record in support of a wall). The looming threat is of losing the Latino Republican vote. This ties in with the courting of Latinos by Dems mentioned above. Regardless of what they do, Republicans will be painted as anti-immigrant racists. The best course is to take the issue head-on, and do what's right. Latino voters will respond positively, and the Republicans will survive intact."

...Sen. Frist seems to be catching on.

Jackie- you didn't do your homework my friend. I didn't say "illegal Mexican" criminal activity. I said from drugs and smuggling. What percentage of crime in the country is tied back to drugs? A lot.
It's a given that 100% of the illegal aliens have already committed a crime. Then to work etc., they have to support other criminals in buying fake ID's etc. Big money there too.
By the way, I live in Arizona and the desert out there is becoming a trash heap from border crossings as they shed empty containers, clothes, and other crap. Because of drug/people smuggling we are advised to be cautious out there and not bump into something/someone by mistake risking your life. Property owners are afraid to go on their own land without being armed. It's bad.

Jackie, you are quick to assume that I have not done my homework or followed many aspects of this issue, and you couldn't be more wrong.
Like John S above I too lived in Arizona; for 10 years prior to moving back to VT and MA, and then to Idaho where I now live. I have been fighting this issue since 1993, and personally worked with Sherrif Joe Arpaio, INS, and the DEA because of illegals. The home I bought in a more affluent at that time up and coming community had been built in orange groves, one of the favored places for illegals to hide out. The owners of those groves as well as most of my neighbors after a time would not venture out after dark, and none of us rode our horses through the groves after cayote runs. I say most of my neighbors because two homes were owned by out of state owners and they rented to A Mexican family, who in turn moved in about 2 dozen more Mexicans EACH. Both houses were drug houses and they were helping the illegals hiding in the groves. When I had had enough of the trouble and called the police on these people for making and dealing within feet of our childrens bus stop, these people retaliated by threatening my family and friends with weapons and trying to run over my children and the children of my best friend and neighbor while they were playing IN our own front yard. What John S says is true and has only gotten worse since the mid 90's.
You may think you are defending a worthy cause, but it's time you and people like you truly see the FACTS, and realize that there are many unseen costs and not just monetary to Illegals gaining so much ground in this country.
You are good at quoting figures, but there is more to it than just the figures.

Jackie: I am well aware of the federal laws on education. That very fact makes the "cost" an American Tax Payer burden. There are school districts all across the country that do not have sufficient funding for a proper education for AMERICAN children, we definately do not need to bear the burden of educating children who do not even belong here, until all schools can be brought to a more uniform standard.
Just because an illegal may only have the equivalence of a 6th grade education, don't for one minute think that they are incapable of committing the crime of identity theft as well as the other crimes involved in staying in this country illegally. I do not for one moment think that the Americans involved in these crimes are not culpable, but they are usually working with the coyotes and drug dealers, and the others who exploit the illegals. They should be imprisoned when the illegals are deported.
Many of these people are NOT so uneducated as you might think or they may pretend to be either.
When I was living in AZ, there was a woman interviewed by the AZ Republic (her identity protected) who was making and selling mexican food from her home kitchen. She admittedly was making about $35, 000/yr CASH. She also was NOT paying for health inspections, licensing, taxes or insurance. I guess her 6th grade education served her in good stead!

One more thing Jackie, I am 1/4 NATIVE AMERICAN!!
My great grandfather was stripped of his heritage, they were not ALLOWED to speak in their own tongue, and much of what was theirs was stollen by the "immigrants" you talk about coming from elsewhere.
Because my family was fearful of what would happen, they did NOT admit to their Indian heritage until much later on in my mothers life.
Not only are Mexicans coming here illegally in numbers to big to accommodate, but they refuse to learn our language, expect to be accommodated for their refusal to speak that language, and have the nerve to DEMAND the same rights we as Americans have. Well they are illegals, they like criminals in our prison system give up those rights by virtue of the crime they committed, in coming here illegally. The only right they should be "entitled" to is the trip back over the border, and the opportunity to do it the right way.

Who wants to be an American? Illegal Immigrants are looking for greener grass. Any country would not like to see one day these illegal immigrants will become politicians and the will take control of the government. Many illegal immigrants are second rate citizens. Many professionals from third world country going to America only to work as domestic helpers. They do not have the priveledge to use their profession.

I propose a 2-for-1 swap with Mexico:
2 rednecks for 1 Mexican.