Israel - In your opinions what are the issues?

I am not informed enough to offer an opinion, but I appreciate your questions, and look forward to seeing what others say.

Were you aware that the Persians/Iranians have not invaded a foreign country in almost 200 years? Some empire, eh? Did you know that their defense budget is %6 billion a year. Do you know what ours is? $450 billion. That makes our budget 75 times what Iran's is. You would expect the new Hitler to be engaged in a big military buildup right? Increasing their military budget at least, right? Wrong, there is no buildup. Israel on the other hand spends $9.6 billion on its military. And did you know that about three years ago Iran actually tried to settle all of its differences with the US, even offerning to negotiate its nuclear status. You probably did not know any of this. Why?

Iran is not Israel's problem. Israel's problem is the settlers. As long as the settlers occupy territory captured by Israel in the 1967 war, territory that was rightly Arab, they will never achieve peace with the Palestinians. And the Palestinians will continue to be used by the other autocratic and kleptocratic governments in the region as an excuse for not delaing with their own problems. The best thing the US could do is compel Israel to adhere to the UN resolutions demanding it's withdrawal to it's pre-1967 borders.

How did Hezbollah start the war with Iraq? Wasn't it more about the Saddam , the US wanting to seize the SW Iranian oil fields?

~~ Hezbollah started the war with Iraq ~~


Not too many people here (including the forum's most ardent Zionist apologists) are going to swallow that one.




By Way of Deception

matthew T. wrote: [...to ignore the Islamic fanaticism is the same as saying lets spend the money to educate our children to learn Persian because there going to need it in the new Wahabi schools they will be attending?
to ignore the Islamic fanaticism is the same as saying lets spend the money to educate our children to learn Persian because there going to need it in the new Wahabi schools they will be attending?]
>>>>
Wahhabi 's don't speak Persian. They consider the Shia "of the Devil." They say that the Shia were invented by the Jews to destroy Islam. The extremist Wahhabis don't think well of most Sunnis either.

SF wrote:
"When Mullah khomeini came to Iran in 1979, he started Hezbollah. He also started the war with Iraq wich lasted several years. Hezollah's slogan at that time was "leather only Rophollah, party only Hezbollah." Hezbollah had nothing to do with the Palastinians or any other Muslim country. "
>>>>
The 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was begun by Saddam, with US support because of the demise of the Shah and Iran's vulnerability due to the turmoil of the 1979. The invasion was initially repulsed by the largely Arab Iranians, who had well-organized labor unions. because of the war, Khomeini was able to consolidate the power of the clerics and expel the democratic, socialist-labor and other liberal and secular elements from the government.
Hizbollah took its inspiration from Khomeini, but it was a Lebanese Shia movement that was created in response to the occupation of Israel. Nasrallah, the current head of Hizbollah had studied in Iraq under both Sistani and Khomeini. Hizbollah's main role has been to develop South Lebanon, which had never been supported by the government of Lebanon, and was largely populated by the poor Shia. It developed its militia to expel the Israelis, largely after the massacre at Qana in 1996.
Iran supported Hizbollah partly because of Khomeini's messianism partly as a strategic defense against Israel.
Nasrallah is a nationalist leader in Lebanon. He does not take orders from Iran, although he accepts aid and consider them an ally. Hizbollah has funding from many sources, notably from wealthy Shia abroad.
There is some information on wikipedia, which seems to get altered all the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Iran

"The Hezbollah[1],[2] meaning "party of God") is a Shia Islamist political party in Lebanon, comprising a militia and extensive front programs for social development.[3] It was formed to combat the Israeli occupation following the 1982 invasion of Lebanon[3] It was officially founded on February 16, 1985 when Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared the group's manifesto. [4] It originally sought to bring the Islamic Revolution to Lebanon,[5] and wanted to transform Lebanon's multi-confessional state into an Iranian-style Islamic state. According to a BBC analysis, "This idea was eventually abandoned and the party today is a well-structured political organisation with members of parliament".[6]...The current Secretary-General of Hezbollah is Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, who has held the office since 1992."

The nuclear issue is being exploited by politiciians in Iran, Israel and the US. Not that nuclear proliferation is not an international concern. But for the clerics it serves to keep the people concerned about US hostility and to pressure the US to establish normal relations (for which they would recognize Israel, etc). Building the economy and security are the aims of Iran's clerics. There has been no threat to attack Israel or anyone else. The media distorts, and so do politicians. The reformist movement having been crushed since Iran was called the Axis of Evil , most Iranians are more interested in seeing economic improvement, although they have little sympathy with the clerical rule. The right to have nuclear energy is a matter of national pride. The Russians are building most of the new reactors in Iran under contract.
The Army, by the way, just released a study that stated 15 nations have old nuclear reactors that could be used to produce weapons. They are all over. Rumania, was one , if I recall correctly.
The talk of attacking Iran is crazy: rhetorical but dangerous because events can cause mad actions.
There are ideologues in the US and Israel who can't listen to reason. We have to get back to dealing with the real world, which also involves negotiation and making the inevitable choices that develop.

Matt T claims a copyright for his article but if he intends on publishing it in a professional journal he will need to do just a little more homework or risk looking a trifle foolish. Wahaabis (also spelled Wahhabis) are Saudi, not Persian and the latter speak Farsi --- a completely different race of people who are Shiia.


As for initial set of questions they clearly show a bias in favor of Israel and presuppose that everyone is in accord with his view that Iran is a terrorist state. Such bias cannot form the basis of a reasoned study or discourse.

I see that a series of erroneous posts were deleted. I respectfully suggest that Matt re-write his topic post and present questions in a more reasoned and objective manner so that we can have a more rational exchange on the topic.

The most cogent comment I have heard about the situation is this: If the Arabs give up their arms they can go back to their jobs and lives. If Israel gives up their arms that's the end of Israel.
One thing that always puzzles me is the idea that the Palestinians, living next to Israel, do not seem to be interested in emulating Israel's success in building a succesful society that provides a good life for its citizens. The Palestinians seem to be content to live in squalor in refugee camps (refugee camps almost 60 years after the war?).
President Bush proclaims the establishment of democracy as his major air for the Mideast. Israel seems to be a model for anyne who wants a better life for themselves and theior children.
Instead all we hear is the constant drumbeat of hatred and the desire for murder as a route to a happy death.
What a lousy neighborhood to try to civilize.

Actually, it's Israel who wants to perpetuate the camps =


The Truth About Zionist Aggression Against The Camps


But, as always, Palestinians will always be blamed by Zionist apologists.

The Palestinians were encouraged to attack Israel by other Arab Nations, but when all was said and done the other arab countires refused to allow the Palestinians to move into there countries as refugee's... 2 reasons, they don't care about the Palestinians and they was something to keep bugging Israel.

The Arabs are treating the Palestinians worse then the Israelis.

About the main article. yes it needs work I admit that. The copyright has more to do with protecting my writng in generial and less to do with this article. I post poems and I am writing a geneological class/maybe book lesson by lesson and so I put the copywrite on all I post lest it be taken abused or missused. (this is the right of all posting and writing on Gather. protect those things that are meaning ful to you even if you don't want to post it for $.

How many years have you spent in Israel, Stanley G.? With what authority do you speak on Israel?

I say give all our Arab friends glass parking lots!

Sir Anthony,
Please by all means read my response.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=28147497678449

Anthony, you put all the blame for Arab intrangence and lethargy on the Jews. Just take a look at what Jews have accomplished despite millenia of oppression, subjugation and hardships. Israel is a success because of the hard work and intelligence of its people. The Jews of the Middle East and the Soviet Union did not wallow in self pity. The Israelis (unlike the Muslim world) did not let their people moulder away in refugee camps.
Do Arabs have no pride, is ther only response to adversity blaming others, teaching their children to hate and sending their young people out to murder at the behest of cynical terrorists. Golda Meir once, wisely said, that she looked forward to the time that the Arabs would love their children more than they hated the Jews.
Anthony, you and your ilk, are more concerned about the poor Arabs than they or their co-religonists are.
Can you imagine what the Middle East would be today, if the Arabs would have welcomed Israel 60 years ago and benefitted from the example the Jews have set?

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976785201
not sure why the other number showed up.

but this one works. =+)

Thanks for letting me know I had a type.

Matthew

May be to quote the Train man in Matrix
"Becouse here, I am God..." No I am not and neither my friend are you, but actualy I am just me and I decide where I wish to hang out. It was like years ago when I converted and stoped drinking and smoking, I stoped hanging out with drinkers and smokers... Becouse I choose to.

God Bless ANthony, and good night...


did you bother to read the other article?

~~ About the main article. yes it needs work I admit that. ~~



Kudos to you for your candor.

As for your idea that Arabs do not want to have Palestinians in their lands, how does that compare with Europeans dumping their "Jewish question" problems on Palestine?

Since Europe decided to dump these peoples without confronting the issues that festered in that continent for centuries, doesn't that demonsrate a lack of responsibility on their part? What gives them the right to compel Arabs to deal with the problem that should have been dealt with in Europe?

Another issue I would like for you to consider is this fabricated idea of Hezbollah using civilians as human shields. When the IDF initially made this fabrication in 1996 the Israeli government investigated and discredited the claim. Today, the IDF repeated the allegation and it was debunked by Human Rights Watch (previously, I have posted links on the subject). Yet, we continue to see posts on this forum (and others) where Zionist apologists continue to perpetuate the fabricated claim even though it has twice been officially debunked. Therefore, my challenge for you is to write a feature that addresses the IDF's repeated fabrications, how they have been debunked, and why people continue to perpetuate lies when they have been apprised of the truth.

Thanks for considering these important issues.

Hey guys what Jewish problem? All Jews have done is provide the basis for monotheism - Christianity if you will, Islam if you want; add to the arts and sciences far out of proportion to their numbers - never bother any nation that didn't bother them first. And provide a scapegoat for fools for 20 centuries.
If that's a problem I don't know what you would like.

Who is God?

~~ Jewish problem ~~


Aha! I caught you!

"Jewish problem" is the term universally used in Europe throughout the centuries as a convenient excuse to engage in pogroms (East Europe) and perjuicios de la Inquisición (Iberia).

It is not to be defined in the modern sense, meaning that it wasn't the Jews who were the problem --- prejudice was the real problem!

Hello All,

I updated the article to make it simply, better more to the point. Thank you for your suggestions, in particular Luckky...

IS Israel (the Jews) a problem dumped on Palestine? Before you answer remember they (the Jews) lived in Palestine for generations before being over run by the Persians and the Romans, thus they also have some claim on the land as well.
>>>>
Why do they have a claim to the land? When were they run over by the Persians? I recall King Cyrus, about 537BC, when he conquered Babylon allowed them to worhip their religion, gave them their religious items, and gave them permission to emigrate to Jerusalem, which many did. He also paid for their temple to be built there. Have you seen the Cyrus Gate in Jerusalem? There has been a Jewish community in Iran for over 2500 years. Its synagogues are still worhsipped at daily by Jews there.
As far as Jews being dumped in the Middle East, yes, groups were sent from what is now Eastern Europe at different times to different places during the Ottoman Empire, as by the Tzars . The Zionists worked with the Tzar and lobbied various European leaders to support sending their Jews to a "homeland." Uganda was one possibility, for a time. A current joke in Israel is , "We should have taken Uganda."

The Balfour Declaration was a letter dated November 2, 1917, from the British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, to Lord Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation, a private Zionist organization. The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there. " (see wikepedia)

~~ (the Jews) lived in Palestine for generations before being over run by the Persians and the Romans ~~


Askenazim "Jews" are not Semitic and only adopted this religious identity in the 8th century {op cit}. Moreover, the Promised Land was for all 12 Israelite tribes and for all Christians, not just for one tribe.

The Balfour Agreement is not binding on Palestinians or Arabs. No one gave the British the unilateral right to dictate to the world how it is to be run. This is why Israel's claims have no actual validity. If the UN's recognition is to be held valid, then it needs to enforce its sanctions against Israel for its repeated violations.

I am incredibly pro-Zionist, and I believe that the Jews had every right to legally emigrate in Palestine. I think the U.N partition plan of 1947 was completely fair, and the Palestinians made a big blunder not to accept that one.

Well, almost hate to add to the over-the-top comments in this thread. I don't begrudge the Jews the right to carve out a homeland for themselves since the entire West pretty much said not here thanks except for their scientists. And for sentimental reasons I can even understand their wanting to carve that homeland out of the "holy land". But, lets not get carried away with the legitimacy of the UN resolution -- the West basically gave real estate to a group which did not possess it. I have said, however, over and over again that the Muslims need to spend a little time on cultural PR -- human bombs does not play well towards cultivating the approval of the West. There is not much question but what the British really screwed things up unnecessarily and that the U.N. basically confirmed their screw-up. Now as to the tribal thing, luckky, we really don't seem to know exactly where the ten (10) tribes went except to the land northward. But when God was in the real estate business, he did in fact lay out the location of each tribe so it is not true that it was for all 12 tribes. The Levites only got cities. Judah and Benjamin became Judah and what we now call Jews. Of course, God or the Devil, didn't help matters much by teleporting Mohammed to the rock upon which Solomon and the other Temple Builders built their temple. But who knows the reasoning behind that?

There is always an excuse to do things in a way we screw others for our own benefit, we call that politic ! The facts are Israel with the support of the U.S (or we better assume the U.S. with the support of Israel !) is extending its territory with the most fabulous impunity. It seems they can't remember their own story or maybe they are by perpetring the same actions one day they were victims.

Many Jews who emigrated to Palestine from the 1920's on have never agreed with extemist Ben Gurion Zionists policies, but the Israeli governments have been controlled, no matter which party was in power, by the extremists. Ideology has dictated policy. Moshe Sharett, who succeeded Ben Gurion as Prime Minister, has described those policies from first-hand experience in his diaries. he characterized them as practicing perpetual war by all means possible, including deception of the Israeli people. The transference of Arab populations well beyond the borders of the UN -designated state of Israel
was an article of faith, which is still promulgated by the hard-liners. This helps to explain, at least in part, the failure of efforts to reach a two-state solution. This is one reason the US has no defense treaty with Israel. When the subject was discussed in 2000, Ariel Sharon totally opposed such a treaty. He said many times, in Israel, since he had the US in his pocket. Now , for the first time, an American administration has abandoned its policy of being an honest broker regarding Israel's dispute with the Palestinians. Our policies, since the occupation of Iraq, have increased the hatred of the US in the region and, I think it is fair to say, the hatred of Israel. The US policies have increased the instability in the region, which we claim is "a good thing," which will help to build a "new Middle East."

"If their militant activism is rejected, Americans may discard their neo-Trotskyites, both Republicans and Democrats keen on spreading their "world democratic revolution", in favour of isolationists who prefer building to spreading. Supporters of spreading - from George W. Bush to Hilary Clinton - are great friends of Israel. The bipartisan support of Israel within the US political elites means also their subservience to the Jewish Lobby. Rejection of the Lobby may become the single slogan of a new American revolution, of a new American political party of independence and non-interference on the way to creating a United States the world can live with."

-Israel Shamir

http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/editorials/signs20060907_WillRussiaStoptheWar.php

Israel can owe its modern existence to great fortune. Jews have been displaced from the middle east for centuries, and then just under 60 years ago they were permitted to forcibly take land which no longer belonged to them.
The references to the Roman empire are a bit absurd. Centuries of warfare have led to the death of civilisations or civilisations being subsumed into other empires or states.

The Israelis are extremely fortuitous to have a homeland and yet they humiliate the people that THEY have displaced. They also hold onto land which does not belong to them despite having the greatest deterrent known to man.

Israel should be FORCED to give back the stolen land and give the Palestinians the homeland they have been deprived of.

This is in everyone's interests and would in particular benefit the US, Israel's sponsor. It is the US that needs to apply the pressure.