Hero or Murderer?

Not a lot of facts to go on, but it wasn't self defense, from what you said. And, there were other solutions the brother-in-law could have tried, such as calling 911 on his brother-in-law, the detective. No way should the detective have been beating his wife and sister, but he should have let the officers handle that. It seems like it would be voluntary manslaughter, if not second degree.

I have seen cases like this where the juries side with the defendant for the most part. We can only hope.

Sometimes, it depends on jurisdicition, too. California and Massachusets may have different verdicts than most of the rest of the country, being somewhat 'different' states. Cat, how do you think a jury in Ohio would vote? I really believe what I said, but I guess you and I are of different opinion. I just don't think people should shoot in the heat of passion.

wait.. the fie was already dead? and then he was killing the sister? I would have shot him sooner.

gather please add an edit button??

wait... the WIFE was dead and he was now killing the sister??

i read the report.. he wasn't beating the sister just his wife.. and the wife lived... this guy is going to go up the river

You can only use the amount of force necessary to prevent 1) imminent harm to yourself or 2) someone else.

"Beating", while not nice, isn't cause to shoot someone. If that were the case, every frat boy fight in this country could have a shooting that's justified.

Not enough facts to say for sure, but, it seems to me, it was three against the dead detective. Surely someone could have hit him with a chair before shooting him?

There was a warning with a threat, however, he was protecting his wife. There may be a lot to this story that we are not aware of. Tough one.

I am a proponent of people having guns and this is why. If the truth comes out that he was trigger-happy (It is tough to tell from story) I only hope the punishment is proportionate to the degree of trigger-happiness that may have been involved. Sound like worse case should be community service and probation. I don't think I want to waste our tax money on jail time unless something else comes out that I am not aware of. If the warning is thue I think that really helps his case.

Ok, Mandi, I know the report did not say he was hitting the sister, but it was clear on the 911 tape, go to the site and click on to listen. He was clearly attacking the sister as well. The wife was not dead. When the drunken detective realized his sister was on the phone with 911 he went after her, and that is when you can hear clearly the sister's husband shouting, "let her go or I'll kill you." Then the gun went off. The detective was 250 ore 300 pounds and he was beating these two women. It sounded like they were all in the driveway.
According to our own local detective, alcohol was involved with all parties.
I feel so bad for these women and the children. Two without husbands, one forever and the other, who knows? How to support one's self when your husband is in jail?
I'll be following this one since it happened in our small community.
I still think the killer is a hero, but not a happy ending to this.

No, not a happy ending for sure. Even if the shooting was justified.

Kathryn,
I am not sure how a jury in Akron, Ohio will vote. Since our New Franklin is small, the felonies all go to Akron. We allow guns to be fired here, but usually we shoot groundhogs, not people.
It all depends on his defense lawyer, I'd say. I wish he'd get a jury of folks from around here, because our smaller town is
more likely to understand taking matters into one's own hands when lives are being threatened.

Eric,
Beating somebody and choking them is trying to kill them, it seems, and attacking your own wife and sister means you are out of control and a danger. I absolutely think deadly force could have been necessary to stop this big man. I regret the gun did not shoot him in the leg instead of killing him, but what would you do if your wife was in danger?
Since I don't know all the facts, I cannot simply exhonerate the brother in law, but I see how this could happen if he was trying to save his wife.

the choke hold probably makes it imminent harm to someone else.

I still thnk it would have been better for the brother in law to try to physically stop the detective from continuing to beat the women, rather than shoot him. I think in a lot of cases, he would be charged with voluntary manslaughter, because he had a choice to use that gun. Even if the man defendant got battered in the process of trying to stop the detective from battering the wife and sister, I think that would have made more sense legally than warning to shoot and then shooting him.

Kathryn, you are right of course.
I wish the detective would have been wounded enough to stop his attack, rather than killed.
I would think the charges will be lowered as well, but the sticky point is the detective was not armed. Meanwhile, here are two families without their Husband/Father.
What would I have done in a similar situation? I'm not sure. There were children inside, and who's to say the man would not start in on them as well? On the 911 tape, he says he's going to take his kids home..... although he was extrememly drunk.
Unfortunately, this man has been disciplined for drunken behavior before which lead to violence to an inmate, and alcohol also lead to a 2000 911 call from his wife after being roughed up, put in a headlock and threatened with a gun.
On the flip side, he's be lauded as an excellent detective, who's been with the force since 1992.
Seems alcohol brought out his demon. It was his demise.

not armed? his hands and mind were weapons.

i hope the brother-in-law gets a damn good lawyer.

as a former domestic violence advocate I noticed that no one commented on the connection between law enforcement and alcohol abuse and domestic violence. What is it with these guys? I've met some really nice officers and unfortunately some that were like this guy. There still seems to be a closed-mouth response from law enforcement about one of their own being involved in this type of crime or even recognizing it as a CRIME.

Jo, you've hit a nerve here.
I know ther is a corrolation, and there is a code of silence when it is one of their own. Not always but often.
I've seen it happen. I know a meter reader who is abusive to his wife (who escaped with her life, thank goodness) and whenever the cops were called, they would make HER leave.
HE is about 250 pounds of pain killered up attitude foaming at the mouth and she is 110 pounds. Last time they told her, "call us when you need an ambulance".
She left him instead.

Also, I suspect a stressful job like law enforcement could take a hard psychological toll, leading to substance abuse and violent behavior. That is not to excuse this behaviour. It must be dealt with and recognized. I wish psychological counselling was a mandatory part of every police officer's life, and that this counselling was seen as a strong way to keep one's life together.
If it were the norm, there would not be a stigma attached to seeing a counsellor. We need big strong folks to be our saviours in crisis situations, not to be our attackers.

I guess you could consider a choke hold a deadly threat. Police are supposedly trained to use this to subdue a person by unconsciousness, so it's not surprising the idiot used it. Used long enough, you die. Still, it's kind of slow, and while the guy is doing the choke hold, you could have taken a baseball bat or a chair to him.

I still think there could have been other steps first, but who knows? We're all Monday morning quarterbacks on this one...

I think if someone was beating my wife and I thought her life was in danger, I'd shoot too. I'd rather have my wife alive and me in jail, than risk a dead wife.
Would anybody here help me make bail?

Liz,
I think when they are aiming for body mass so they don't miss, as a leg or arm is quicker to move than the entire body.
But I really don't know having not had to be in that situation.
John,
I'd help with bail and I'm a hell of a fundraiser, too.

Police are trained to shoot to kill--they know that anything else puts others and self in jeopardy. I think the same is true in situations like this one. Just putting someone in pain may not always be the best--people on drugs and alcohol, combined with anger have incredible strength and the ability to fight back even when injured.

The bottom line is sometimes you just have to do what you think is best (as opposed to right--who has time to think about that when you're in danger).

anyone in law enforcement out there? Like to hear what you think.

What a tragedy. I can only put myself in the defendent's shoes. I doubt that I would be able to think clearly enough to "aim to maim" - especially if there was a chance I might hit the victim I was trying to protect.

Hopefully the jury will see that angle and consider it.

Bare hands are weapons. We need to fight to have them recognized as such.

With the little information we have, I expect most would feel they'd like to shoot the SOB.

Hopefully, a jury will get to hear all the facts, both sides of the story (there are always differing viewpoints) and will receive instructions in the legal issues from a judge. Then an informed judgement can be made and our emotional and wild-assed opinions won't matter.

more info has come out about the abuser's record.

six months after graduating the police acadamy, he was pulled over for speeding (74mph in a 35mph zone) and it was found he was highly intoxicated with various open containers in his car.

four months later, he was disciplined for striking a confined prisoner and had to be pulled off the suspect ( he "had his hands around the subject's neck") by another officer.

in 2000, swat teams had to be called to his home because he had choked his wife until she went limp and was throwing stuff around the house, then he threatened to shoot anyone who came into the house.

in 2005, police were called to his home and his wife was discovered to be covered with bruises, which she blamed on a fall.

It is no surprise the brother in law shot this dangerous man. I am more convinced than ever the Brother in Law is a hero.

I'm disappointed that the husband was allowed to get away with his behavior for so long. Hopefully there are those who knew that are going to do the right thing and not let the next jerk weed get away with this kind of *&%$@.

Thanks for the update. I know the authorities must hold the hero until a ruling can be made. Someone died after all. But that doesn't mean he needs to do time or lose his world.

Let us know?

Mr Hero had his first hearing in court. His lawyer is asking firstly for a modified bond in court today (he's being held on a $250,000 cash bond right now). Then he's seeking to get the charges reduced. Mr. Carlson (the shooter) was in diminished condition at the time due to a swimming accident earlier this summer. Also, the charge of murder is not appropriate due to he was defending a third party. The man was unable to physically intercede.


also of note:
The shooter has a permit to carry that gun.
and
While the deceased has a history of extreme violence the shooter's record consists of only minor traffic tickets.

can you imagine of YOU or I were to behave in a manner which the deceased conducted himself?
I know I'd be up the river for certain, and rightly so.

So many issues here,
Alcohol
History of violence comitted by the one killed
Looks like defense, I thought protecting a family member was like self defense.

Cat,
We posted at almost the same moment.
Thanks for giving us the update, I was wondering as I typed what was happening.
The defender might get a break. And my question of "why a gun" is answered.

Yes, I will keep coming back for updates. Or maybe another article or two as you find time to post. Wonder if they'd let you interview him?

I hope when the indightment goes before the grand jury they dismiss. Failing that, my son is of the opinion if the murder charge is kept, he'll have a better chance of a jury finding him innocent of the murder charge than that of manslaughter.
This is tough stuff.
Meanwhile, six children are without their fathers.

I am not thinking an interview is a good idea before a trial, but I'll keep writing updates in new articles. they'll be obvious as to being continuations of this one.

I think it will be fairly easy for the shooter to plead down the murder charge. I'm surprised that the police officer kept his job after a DUI and a spousal abuse charge. I think police work is probably the most stressful job there is because you see humankind at its worse - angry, weak, violent, and victimized.

That's why I think it is important for cops to interact with the public in positive ways under positive circumstances. Even small things, like unlocking someone's door after their keys are trapped inside (back in the olden days when cops had that gadget) allows a positive reinforcement experience within the community in which they serve. Unfortuately, law enforcement is high stress and low pay so to generalize the academy graduates - they are either very dedicated or want to have legal means to hurt people.

Interesting reading. As you all discussed, it's fairly difficult to find info on this case (especially from Orlando, Florida). I know Jake (the defendant) and his wife who made the 911 call. Only one posting mentioned the fact that Jake was involved in a swimming accident. While in NC earlier this summer, Jake was thrown to the ocean floor by a wave and broke his neck. He is on diability from work and has to wear a very cumbersome neck brace that straps around his chest and comes up around his neck and under his chin. His range of motion is ZERO. While it sounds like a great idea to "duke it out" with the detective untile the police arrive, it simply was not an option for Jake. He does not have the abilty to bend down to tie his shoes while wearing this brace let alone take on a 280 lb alcohol crazed police officer. Jake was fully aware of the officer's past (DUI, beating his wife, and beating member of the public) and when the office started choking his own sister (Jake's wife), I believe that his only available option was to shoot the detective. Additionally, I don't believe that anyone in that situation would aim for anything but the largest target (the torso) so as not to miss.
Hopefully the grand jury will come back soon with the decision that this was self-defense and that Jake had no other option but to fire those shots. Let's not also forget that the human being that Jake killed was his brother-in-law. Those 4 little girls that will grow up without a father are Jake's nieces. There is no happy ending to this story. This is a horrible tragedy that has ripped the family apart. My heart goes out to everyone involved and I pray that Jake is cleared of all charges.

Tim, thank you for giving us more details on Jake's swimming accident. I think it is disgusting he is still being held. What else could the man have done?
Our support is completely behind Jake and this community is hoping he getgs cleared of all charges so the families can begin to put their lives back together.
It was unfortunately the deceased's actions that got him killed and his children fatherless. It's surprising it didn't happen sooner.

Grand Jury has declined to indict.
Let the healing process begin.

He didn't need to kill the A**hole. Kneecapping him would have served a better purpose.