A Lesson For The Middle East Learned From A Bar Fight

it is not the stomach, america has to play the social butterfly, pleasing everyone, israel si the enfant terrible, no image to maintain as will be damned no matter what action taken..so israel has the previledge of doing the right thing, and the hell with what the european hypocrits think...60 years is too short a time in history to forget , and we know exactly who did what to whom and who had to come riding on a white horse and save the world..so America is o.k. as long as it stops being the teenager trying to please everyone

Absolutely fantastic post!

A must read for all.

IF ONLY IT COULD BE.

The inability of the world to make moral distinctions sickens me.

Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, the "insurgents" in Iraq, all attack civilians from behind a shield of civilians, yet there are so many in the chattering classes and among the pain-fully hip who act as if there is moral equivalence between these tactics and that of a professional military. The failure to make these moral distinctions is at best an indication of amorality, at worst an immorality.

As for Hezbollah and Hamas, what exactly is the purpose in attacking a nation in retreat?

Israel had just left Gaza and was scheduled to disengage from the West Bank. The result of this policy would be an independent and economically viable Palestinian state.

One can only conclude that Hezbollah and Hamas require the franchise of war and terrorism to maintain their power and privilege.

So war it must be.

Last night on the news the toll was 330 dead Lebanese to 32 dead Israelis, over ten to one. That's an improvement over the usual 3.5 to one Palestinain ratio to Israeli dead. I guess the price is worth it, to Israel anyway. Of course 65 of those Lebanese were children. Is there a moral distinction in that do you think?

Yes, it is the way of guerillas to hide among civilian populations, a fact that is well known, especially by Israel. I suppose that explains why they have bombed neighborhoods in south Beirut, as well as christian churches, factories, farms, whole villages, and, of course, hospitals.

I fear Israel takes a special pleasure in its collateral damage. I think it is punishing a whole country for the crimes of a few, the innocent along with the guilty, and the innocent, by last count, are outnumbering the guilty by a long shot.

And what will be the result? Hezbollah may be running on rhetoric alone, but that rhetoric is finding more and more willing listerners. Like the Iraqi fiasco this war may only spread the disease. After all, Israel's occupation of Southern Lebanon lasted 18 years and look how good that turned out.

No, despite your little macho story there is no analogy here. Things in the Levant simply aren't that simple. This is no bar fight. Israel has been "winning" for 60 years, and yet it still cannot live in peace. Hezbollah's ridicuous stance is the result of fanaticism borne of hopelessness. It cannot die a reasonable death because there is no reason behind it. It is not rational. And Israel's military philosophy of extreme overkill only feeds it all the more. It will remain a Balkan standoff, always waiting for another spark to ignite yet more suffering for the common people who are only trying to survive and live normal lives. Niether side will ever win.

A plague on both their houses.

And here'a little story to emphasize my point.

"When Israeli loudspeakers warned villagers to evacuate the village of Marwaheen last Saturday, the families packed their belongings and headed for safety. More than 23 of them piled into a pickup and drove toward Tyre, with the brothers trailing behind. Another group set off for a nearby United Nations observation post, but were promptly turned away.

As the pickup raced to Tyre, Ali al-Ghanam said, Israeli boats shelled their convoy, hitting the car and injuring the women and children in the back. But within minutes an Israeli helicopter approached the car, firing a missile that blew the truck to pieces as the passengers struggled to jump out, he said.

His brother Mohammad, his wife and their six children, were killed instantly along with several of their relatives. The only survivor in the car was the brothers' 4-year-old niece, who survived with severe burns to much of her body.

"The dead stayed in the sun for hours until anyone could come and collect them," Mr. Ghanam said. "The Israelis can't understand that we are people, too. Should they wonder why so many of us support the resistance?" he said, speaking of Hezbollah."


Should they wonder, indeed.

Both side are in the wrong, as is so often the case in long-lasting conflicts. The lines of blame blur as the fighting parties divide and entrench. Atrocities are answered with atrocities, and in the end it all becomes one big, singular atrocity.

Both sides are wrong, and yet the US stands in unwavering, resolute support of one side over the other. Which, of course, makes us wrong too...

To anyone who isn't completely comfortable with the concept of 'collateral damage'; to anyone who feels even a twinge of something like remorse, or compassion, or just pain, every time they read about the husbands, wives, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, men, women and children who, every day, are paying the ultimate price for our leaders' hubris, machismo, profit and thrills; to anyone who can't just shrug it off and say, "whatever... doesn't touch me... cost of war and all..." I say our leaders need to go.

I don't think they're gonna go quietly, though...

This is not an accurate anology at all.
I find Hezbollah's tactics deplorable as well, but it is the voters of that nation who put them in power, not corrupt leaders.
Perhaps they are sickened by Israel's heavy hand and bombings of the innocents.
I agree with Ronald Horvath's comments, and wonder why people are so damn pig headed as to keep bombing when it only leads to more death. But of course, I know many of each side only wants the total dissemination of the other.

Just read Donald's comments, and he is so right. It is the leader who need to follow the people.

It is in the interests of Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas that the hostilities end prior to Israel's damaging of their forward positions in Lebanon. Especially Syria and Hezbollah have a vested interest in maintaining these strategic positions.

One could watch in real-time as the leftist blogsphere came to life to support this agenda by pressuring Israel to end its response and for the United States to pressure Israel.

There exists no such pressure against Syria, Hezbollah or Hamas.

We do not see the Donalds or the Cat's screaming about Hezbollah's unprovoked attack against Israel, only about Israel's response.

The hypocrisy of claiming "both sides were wrong" is an astounding absurdity in view of Israel's recent moves to disengage from Gaza and the West Bank. Several agreements, including a United Nations Resolution, had called for the removal of Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon and the disarming of its militias.

Nothing came of it.

Israel must drive Hezbollah out of Southern Lebanon, then we can begin talking about what can replace them.

This is part of a comment that I posted in another thread. The relevance of it here is the roots of the Anti-War Movement and the roots of the current co-ordination of a media campaign against Israel and in support of Hezbollah and Hamas.

Take a look at who runs the Anti-War Movement....A.N.S.W.E.R. and who is A.N.S.W.E.R.?

Why it is our old friends at the World Workers Party. Notice the big red star.

Look at who they are supporting and notice the rhetoric.

EMERGENCY PROTESTS OF THE ISRAELI ASSAULT ON THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE:

and

Workers World Party statement
Stop U.S.-Israeli aggression in Middle East!
Hands off the forces of national resistance!

Still seeing communists under the bed, Greg? I advise you to put down the flashlight and come into the light.

"Hezbollah and Hamas require the franchise of war and terrorism to maintain their power and privilege.. "

Well, I'll be first here and just admit that you may be right. Fanaticism often requires impossible goals and an implacable adherence to an unresolvable conflict.

The other side of the coin is that Israel requires a constant provoking of violence from a violence-prone people to justify their expansion into the West Bank; and they are still building more settlements no matter what they tell poor dim-witted Bush. In that respect Hamas, at least may just be fighting a holding action, trying to keep what little they have left.

Some higher ranking israelis have admitted as much.

"David Kimche, who was director general of Israel's foreign ministry in the 1980's, noted: "The old Zionist nationalists' anthem was a state on 'the two banks of the River Jordan.' When that became impractical, we talked about 'greater Israel,' from the Jordan to the sea. But people now realize that this, too, is something we won't be able to achieve." NYTs, http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/weekinreview/14bron.html?hp&ex=1123992000&en=906a663acae2c183&ei=5094&partner=homepage

So, if Hezbollah is driven out of Southern Lebanon will Israel give up it's illegal settlements in the West Bank, let the Palestinians have their own country and everyone will live happily ever after?

Let's say that Hamas renounces violence, recognizes Israel's right to exist, and then demands a return to the 67 borders for both countries. Will Israel accept? And if the Jews should have the right of return after 2000 years, will the Palestinians get the same right after only 60?

As I said, it's just not that simple. If you think that Hezbollah has started this little ruckus for political ends and then it's just as possible that Israel has blown a situation that could have been settled with a prisoner swap all out of proportion in order to goad the US into military action aimed at Syria and Iran. I understand we're already rushing a new shipment of bombs to the Israeli military, just in case they haven't bombed enough innocent civilians today to get their quota. (I understand the lebanese are so overloaded with casualties that they are burying their dead in mass graves. Way to go Israel.)

And meanwhile Greg is hunting for commies under his bed and in the dark recesses of his imagination.

forgive me if I find the politics somewhat irrelevant while children are dying for nothing but the ambitions of ideologues on both sides. You say both sides can't be wrong. I say neither can claim to be right if their argument has to be written in innocent blood.

Why should I look for Communists under my bed when they are so readily found for everyone to see in the Anti-War Movement?

The other side of the coin is that Israel requires a constant provoking of violence from a violence-prone people to justify their expansion into the West Bank; and they are still building more settlements no matter what they tell poor dim-witted Bush.

I like how you so deftly attempt to confuse the issue of the settlements on the West Bank. Israel is withdrawing behind a wall that it built in the wake of attacks by suicide bombers. The wall for all practical purposes will be the border with Palestine. Perhaps the wall will be moved as a result of negotiation but the reality is that Israel is withdrawing its settlements behind the wall.

The West Bank runs right through Jerusalem and runs perilously close to Israeli cities. The events in Gaza and now the events in Southern Lebanon make the placement of that wall a primary consideration of the security of Israel.

In that respect Hamas, at least may just be fighting a holding action, trying to keep what little they have left.

Try to reflect a basic knowledge of the history of the last few weeks. Hamas is attacking Israel from Gaza, a place that Israel just left. It is Hezbollah that is attacking Israel from Lebanon, a place the Israelis left years ago.

The wall leaves the vast majority of the UN partition of Palestine in the hands of the Palestinians.

To suggest that it is Hamas or Hezbollah who are being backed against a wall is a joke of the highest order.

I understand we're already rushing a new shipment of bombs to the Israeli military

As is Iran and Syria rushing to supply Hezbollah; are you suggesting that only Hezbollah be armed?

That is your agenda is it not?

Here is an updated map of the Israeli Security Barrier as of April 2006

While it is true that the barrier does extend in some minor places beyond the Partition Borders settled in 1948, it is beyond absurd to suggest that the Israeli's are trying to " justify their expansion" or that "Hamas, at least may just be fighting a holding action, trying to keep what little they have left."

As any but the most ideological fool can see Israel is leaving over 95% of The West Bank and dismantling the overwelming majority of its settlements.

With these obvious facts in plain view, it is beyond reason that anyone would suggest that the actions of Hamas or Hezbollah is justified.

Minor places? It is my understanding that the settlement of Ariel -named after Sharon, of course- sits atop the largest aquifer in the West Bank and Israel isn't about to give that up, which is the reason for that elaborate dip into West Bank territory.

In any case it remains to be seen just how much Palestinian terrirtory will be vacated and how much will end up Israel's by right of conquest. That was Sharon's plan for years until he realized the Palestinians just weren't going to leave no matter how miserable he made it for them. He was the father of the illegal settler movement after all.

"After the Wye River accords mandated the dismantling of
some settlements in 1998, Sharon, then in the middle of
negotiations with the Palestinian Authority as Israel's
foreign minister, delivered a rousing endorsement of the
nascent outpost movement in a speech to the extreme
right-wing Tsomet Party. ''Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the
settlements, because everything we take now will stay
ours,'' Sharon said. ''Everything we don't grab will go to
them,'' he said, meaning the Palestinians. -The Unsettlers, February 16, 2003, By SAMANTHA M. SHAPIRO http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/magazine/16SETTLEMENTS.html?ex=1046333071&ei=1&en=65d8da1943c4ec01

Gaza was "given up" because it made up only 1.25 percent of the Palestine Mandate but contains 37 percent of the Palestinian population, too many to control or intimidate into leaving, essentially a giant concentration camp.

But we digress, don't we. You have led us farther away from the "moral distinction" that you refuse to recognize, that the Lebanese people are taking the hit for Hezbollah and Israel doesn't care. This is a war of intimidation, a warning of what will happen to all Israel's antagonists if she doesn't get her way. That Hezbollah is just crazy enough not to take the hint is symbolic of the situation and that Israel will keep killing 10 innocent Lebanese for every Israeli is more than symbolic of the lunacy that now rules the mideast.

Read my post on LEBANON - I don't think either side has the moral upper hand. The hamas are bad guys but they are the same bad guys that are in Iraq.

Gaza was "given up" because it made up only 1.25 percent of the Palestine Mandate but contains 37 percent of the Palestinian population, too many to control or intimidate into leaving, essentially a giant concentration camp.

Obviously you have a problem with spacial relations, please take a look at any of the readily available maps of the regions.

But we digress, don't we. You have led us farther away from the "moral distinction" that you refuse to recognize, that the Lebanese people are taking the hit for Hezbollah and Israel doesn't care.

There would be no war in Lebanon today if Hezbollah had not deliberatly started one.

There would be no war in Lebanon today if Hezbollah and Syria had not refused to comply with the UN mandate to disarm and vacate the border area.

Bogner's a Nazi, pure and simple.

Of course, should Israel follow their continuing disastrous course, they're sure to crate many more terrorists than they eliminate in the short-term.

When you indiscriminately bomb folks who may have had no use for Hezbollah, you're going to create folks who will begin to think groups like Hexbollah have a point.

It is a new era of an old war. Israel's response is no more "disproportionate" to Hezbollah's and Hamas' attacks on Israel, than Hezbollah and Hamas' attacks on Israel were to Israel's previous non-aggression. In fact, Israel's leaving Gaza was a good-faith gesture, to restart negotiations. Hezbollah must be disarmed, at least, as must Hamas. The cycle must end now.

You are some of the dumbest ppl on the planet. No wonder you fools think you're so great and above everyone else.

Stupid stupid thinking. . . .you are thinking right? lol Its rhetorical.

"Hezbollah must be disarmed, at least, as must Hamas. The cycle must end now. "

I say disarm Israel and Hezbollah and Hamas. And let the chips fall where they may.

Israel wouldn't stand a chance not being able to bomb innocent civilians to smitherines.