Prayer Requests

I am so with you on this, Sandy. I do not agree to pray for people. I will send good thoughts their way, or try to send positive energy, or just be there for them. But I cannot pretend to believe something that I do not believe.
I believe in randomness. I envy those who think their prayers will be answered, for they must be comforted by this.
It's so politically incorrect to say you don't believe in god (I did NOT say that), but it's just fine to assume that others beliefs are the same as yours.
I'll probably lose half my connections over this one.

This a very interesting article, Sandy. I've never given much thought to it before. I always just thought it's something that people just ask without thinking and don't truly expect you to comply.
However, I know in India they believe that group prayer is more effective than individual prayer because your voice is louder and it stands out in the multitude of voices that God hears all the time. Whenever there's a drought, the whole community prays together, in little clusters if they're different religions, but still for the same thing. I'm not sure if it works any better than individual prayer but I know that's what they do.

Nancy, you would never lose my connection for your comment!

The e-mailed requests bother me the most: I don't think forwarding eighty e-mails within 5 minutes accomplishes anything -- even if there's a pretty picture or a moving cookie attached.

You ask some good questions here, Sandy. The only prayer requests I get are from my mother for other people mostly and 99% are health related. It's the practice of her church to ask for prayer and their belief that strength comes in numbers.

We have different religious beliefs, as they are much more conservative than I am. As long as the right to have a different belief is respected, I don't have an issue with a request. I can then decide myself whether I choose to accept it or not.

Religious beliefs are very personal to me, and I don't like anybody telling me what I should or should not believe or that I'll go to hell because I don't go to church. It's a personal choice.

I would highly recommend any books by Larry Dossey. He describes how there is a quantum physics relationship to prayer and how our prayer can actually change the energy surrounding a person. As a Buddhist I do not pray to an entity to intervene in a person's life, however, I believe that prayer creates a force for change in the universe that will work if the person is open to accepting it. They don't need to even be open on a conscious level. Also, prayer is mostly for the pray-er, not the person being prayed for. It can have wonderful results if done correctly and is done just asking for the person's highest good, not specific results.

Agree mostly with you Sandy and Nancy, some request are absurd if you do not believe in it first and second because you have no idea who the people are.
I believe in the power of intention, to have good will toward the world as a whole in sending good vibes, thoughts, from myself out to all.
It means that I have to be at peace and love the world.
i did have an occasion where i was familiar with the situation of a young man lost in the woods, about few hundred acres of forest at night and I did wish for him to have light , and I was thinking about him all night, when he emerged somehow the next day he said that at one point a metheor light up the skies and burst in all kinds of colors and he decided to stop and spend the night there.
Coincidence I suppose but a good one.

Sandy, My grandmother was a strict Penecostal woman. She said we should always pray for "Thy Will be done." I think that most people ask for prayer because the Bible states that "If two agree."

Prayer is an individual preference. I believe that God listens to each and every person who prays. However, I don't believe in praying to win a competition or for someone who has already died. It is too late after they've passed into the hereafter. Prayer should be selective and people should remember to be careful for what they pray for. Their prayers may come true.

Dear God.

I pray for everybody in the world.

AMEN

Does that cover it?

What I find harder to understand is when someone tells me to pray for my enemies?! If prayers really worked that bus would have run them down a long time ago!

Sandy, a great piece. I'm glad that mine prompted you to post it.

SF

PS: Just FYI, my name is spelt "Stephen Frug".

Stephen, I apologize. I was proud of me for remembering your name, because I'm terrible with names and even worse at jumping back and forth in here to find them again. I will correct it right away.

Thanks, everyone, for the great discussion. Stephanie published another related article today. if you want to check hers out.

I am with Nancy on the issue. I always wondered at the nerve of telling God how to do his job!

I am amazed by the arrogance of telling God how to to his job, the insult of assuming he neglects the small or sole voice (who'd want to believe in a god like that), the disappointment of believing he's vain enough not to watch over anyone who doesn't praise him, the duplicity of being omincient yet requiring the ritual... it all goes against everything I want to believe.

EB, your comment is hysterical.

I'm kind of agreeing with EB on this issue.

Very good points Sandy. Those who want to pray can do it till their hearts are content and claim whatever miracles, cures, etc occur, and those who don't can say it's fate or luck or whatever. The one thing is sure is that no one has any definitive answer whether it works or not because no one's come back from the other side with that info yet.

Wow. This was kind of spooky. I read your article and the very first words that popped into my mind were "I am so with you on this Sandy." I went to type them but see that Nancy S. beat me to it!

Your comment about the bumper sticker echos something I've been saying for years. Indeed I would love to see a lot more personal responsibility and love between all people.

This is a great article, Sandy, and reflective of thoughts I've had for quite a few years. I never understood the thought of actually praying for someone, but I have thought about other forms - sending well wishes, meditating, sending positive vibes towards someone who needed it - and part of me thinks that these things, often preferred by folks who don't believe in "praying for" someone - really aren't that different than the act of praying for someone. In my opinion, they're the same thing that takes different forms according to what each person believes.

Now, given that, I believe that there are certain situations where a request for good vibes are appropriate - for example, if I'm worried about a particular thing, like a job or a tough situation I'm going through, I will send a generic request for positive mojo to come my way. However, I wouldn't expect said mojo to come from strangers, and I wouldn't ask for it from them.

I don't know - I'm torn. If I get a prayer request, I'll usually send a quick positive thought in their direction. I do, however, find it a little offputting when I get the mass e-mails asking me to pray for this that or whoever's operation, illness, or competition.

I believe in the power of positive energy, and both ask for it and send it out. I think there's a universal pool of energy and knowledge that we all have access to, if we choose it and contribute back to it as much as we take. I like to think I send my positive energy into the world for anyone who needs it, and focus my physical energy on activities that I believe will make the world a better place. I also believe it is important to let others know what we wish for, and am the strange mother who, instead of saying keep it a secret, told my daughter to let everyone know the wish before they blew out the candles. My belief is the more people know your dream, the more likely they are to help you achieve it.

Damian's point about being able to pray any time any where is one I preach often when people misconstrue the 'prayer in school' issue. No one that I know of has asked anyone not to pray, they've only asked that they not ask everyone else to pray with them, listen to them, stop and bow their heads while they pray, or in any way participate. Prayer can and should be private, in my opinion.

This is a rich and satisfying conversation, Sandy -- thanks for hosting it.

First, I absolutely love what John A. said -- beautifully stated and very much what I would have attempted to say, so, thanks, John!

Secondly, I'd expand on the idea of the God image. As a child, I was shown humanoid, grandfatherly images of God and those were friendly, familiar images to get me started on the God concept.

As I matured, however, those images no longer suited my concept of a being capable of creating all the wonders around us.

Additionally, there was an element of God that could allow "evil" to exist/happen, and I realized much of my definition of "evil" was based upon viewpoint. A forest fire that consumes millions of acres could be an evil, if caused by a careless tourist or even a malicious arsonist. When I was younger, my heart would break over a forest fire.

As I got older and learned more science, I came to understand the earth-cleansing properties of fire, and I came to witness firsthand (down on Long Island and on Hawaii) the astonishing regrowth that takes place in the wake of such a fire. Instead of an ending, the fire was a renewal of the forest. From a God's-eye view, there was no evil in the picture, just the steady changing flow of earth processes. (This did not arouse any sympathy for stupid tourists, however.)

By the time I was raising boys, I'd explain that God was not limited by human form the way we are, and thus 'being made in his image' was more about *our* being created just as God wanted us to be, not by us defining him. (hope I'm making sense...)

The God I understood was too vast for a small human mind to grasp, ever. I'd tell the boys God was both bigger than the hugest concept they could ever imagine and smaller than the smallest, because our minds and imaginations were limited, but God was not.

And to bring this back to prayer, I would echo Sandy -- that we are all a part of something larger and our positive energy, goodwill, and compassion are never lost or wasted unless we refuse to express them for others.

A co-worker has a bumper sticker that reads "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle."

Good article, Sandy. The title drew me in right away. I have to say that I agree with you in that it is very presumptious of any Christian to tell someone else to "pray for this" or "pray for that". I don't think its usually done in any kind of malicious way. Its totally done without any kind of forethought. I have to admit that I have never really considered how it must make someone feel who does not believe the same way, so thank you for opening my eyes to this. I think its fine for believers to pray and I strongly believe in prayer because I have seen it work in my life and in the lives of others. But to presume that someone else will feel comfortable in offering up something is prayer is something I will no longer do. Thank you for shedding light on this!

Thanks everyone, for the great discussion. I appreciate every comment here.

Cheryl, I truly appreciate yours because I now how different our beliefs are.

Dannielle, I used that candle quote as my email signature line for many years. Thank you for taking time out of the
Libraryathon to come back and leave such a thoughtful comment.

Here comes a comment (received in email today) that is an article written by someone else...has anyone ever done that before? It's aanother way to look at healing...
HO'OPONOPONO
by Joe Vitale

"Two years ago, I heard about a therapist in Hawaii who cured a complete ward of criminally insane patients--without ever seeing any of them. The psychologist would study an inmate's chart and then look within himself to see how he created that person's illness. As he
improved himself, the patient improved.

"When I first heard this story, I thought it was an urban legend. How could anyone heal anyone else by healing himself? How could even the best self-improvement master cure the criminally insane? It didn't
make any sense. It wasn't logical, so I dismissed the story.

"However, I heard it again a year later. I heard that the therapist had used a Hawaiian healing process called ho 'oponopono. I had never heard of it, yet I couldn't let it leave my mind. If the story was at all true, I had to know more. I had always understood "total
responsibility" to mean that I am responsible for what I think and do. Beyond that, it's out of my hands. I think that most people think of total responsibility that way. We're responsible for what we do, not what anyone else does--but that's wrong.

"The Hawaiian therapist who healed those mentally ill people wouldteach me an advanced new perspective about total responsibility. His name is Dr. Ihaleakala Hew Len. We probably spent an hour talking on our first phone call. I asked him to tell me the complete story of his
work as a therapist.

He explained that he worked at Hawaii State Hospital for four years. That ward where they kept the criminally insane was dangerous.

Psychologists quit on a monthly basis. The staff called in sick a lotor simply quit. People would walk through that ward with their backs against the wall, afraid of being attacked by patients. It was not a pleasant place to live, work, or visit.

"Dr. Len told me that he never saw patients. He agreed to have an office and to review their files. While he looked at those files, he would work on himself. As he worked on himself, patients began to heal.

"'After a few months, patients that had to be shackled were being allowed to walk freely,' he told me. 'Others who had to be heavily medicated were getting off their medications. And those who had no chance of ever being released were being freed.' I was in awe.'Not only that,' he went on, 'but the staff began to enjoy coming to work.

Absenteeism and turnover disappeared. We ended up with more staff than we needed because patients were being released, and all the staff was showing up to work. Today, that ward is closed.'

"This is where I had to ask the million dollar question: 'What were you doing within yourself that caused those people to change?'

"'I was simply healing the part of me that created them,' he said. I didn't understand. Dr. Len explained that total responsibility foryour life means that everything in your life- simply because it is in your life--is your responsibility. In a literal sense the entire world is your creation.

"Whew. This is tough to swallow. Being responsible for what I say or do is one thing. Being responsible for what everyone in my life says or does is quite another. Yet, the truth is this: if you take complete responsibility for your life, then everything you see, hear, taste, touch, or in any way experience is your responsibility because it is
in your life. This means that terrorist activity, the president, the economy or anything you experience and don't like--is up for you to heal. They don't exist, in a manner of speaking, except as projections from inside you. The problem isn't with them, it's with you, and to
change them, you have to change you.

"I know this is tough to grasp, let alone accept or actually live. Blame is far easier than total responsibility, but as I spoke with Dr. Len, I began to realize that healing for him and in ho 'oponopono means loving yourself.

"If you want to improve your life, you have to heal your life. If you want to cure anyone, even a mentally ill criminal you do it by healing you.

"I asked Dr. Len how he went about healing himself. What was he doing, exactly, when he looked at those patients' files?

"'I just kept saying, 'I'm sorry' and 'I love you' over and over again,' he explained.
"That's it?
"That's it.
"Turns out that loving yourself is the greatest way to improve yourself, and as you improve yourself, you improve your world.

"Let me give you a quick example of how this works: one day, someone sent me an email that upset me. In the past I would have handled it by working on my emotional hot buttons or by trying to reason with the person who sent the nasty message.

"This time, I decided to try Dr. Len's method. I kept silently saying, 'I'm sorry' and 'I love you,' I didn't say it to anyone in particular.
I was simply evoking the spirit of love to heal within me what was creating the outer circumstance.

"Within an hour I got an e-mail from the same person. He apologized for his previous message. Keep in mind that I didn't take any outward action to get that apology. I didn't even write him back. Yet, by saying 'I love you,' I somehow healed within me what was creating him.

"I later attended a ho 'oponopono workshop run by Dr. Len. He's now 70 years old, considered a grandfatherly shaman, and is somewhat reclusive.

He praised my book, The Attractor Factor. He told me that as I improve myself, my book's vibration will raise, and everyone will feel it when they read it. In short, as I improve, my readers will improve.

"'What about the books that are already sold and out there?' I asked.

"'They aren't out there,' he explained, once again blowing my mind with his mystic wisdom. 'They are still in you.' In short, there is no out there. It would take a whole book to explain this advanced technique with the depth it deserves.

"Suffice It to say that whenever you want to improve anything in your life, there's only one place to look: inside you. When you look, do itwith love."

Very interesting, Jan, and thanks for posting this here. I'm going to sleep on it before I respond. There's a lot to think about here.

good topic, Sandy. I'm staying out of it, though.

As for me, if I would want to make a prayer request I would post it to groups such as the Fellowship Cafe, Christian Connections and others. Groups that are made up of like minded people.

I am impressed with Cheryl's answer, and her attitude. She has very firm beliefs, and they work for her. But she never, either here or in her writing, asks anyone else to agree. That is respectful.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I envy those with strong beliefs; it helps them get thru some very trying times.
I just don't share the beliefs. And that's okay, too.
The request to pray for someone often has a "strings attached" feeling, and I dislike that.

And the email thing - UGH. If little Johnny needs my prayers and for me to send the email to 17 friends, and around the world 23 times, then he better hang it up right now, cause I ain't gunna do it!

Oh, and Sandy, you do have a tendency to write the most thought provoking articles. Thank you. I don't know if I've said that lately.

Along the lines of "Smile, I love you" I'd like to share what has become my only prayer for others. It's a Buddhist loving kindness meditation:
May you (all beings) be well and happy.
May you (all beings) be free from anger.
May you (all beings) be free from suffering.
Amen.

Thanks some more, guys, and I'm still thinking about the story in Jan's comment. Thanks, Jan, for sending my brain in ten different directions. I'm printing your comment this time, to study it more carefully.

I just went back and reread Jan's comment. I love that tale, but I cannot grasp it. If you believe that, then reality may be different for each of us, and we may not, in fact, exist. (God, I love this philosophy stuff!)
It reminds me of something my psycholgist once told me. He said "If we know about something, we become responsible for it". I think I was struggling at the time with the horror going on in Bosnia, and I said I couldn't stand it that there was such cruelty, and I could not fix it.
Then I started thinking that I didn't want to know these things. Ignorance is bliss, and all that. But he just laughed and said "But you do know".
So how am I responsible? What can I do? Send money? Say prayers? Go to Bosnia and kill bad guys?

I decided that all I can do is be as good a person as it is possible for me to be, to help when I can, to do no harm, as is said in Wicca, and to be the best "me" that there is.

Has anyone mentioned that private thoughts might be prayers? If I think about someone's parent or brother, whom I have never met, I think how their issues affect the person I know and care about. Anyone with cancer would be someone I would hope would get better even if I only knew them as a guest on Oprah, but someone who is connected to me through another I care about would be a cancer patient in my immediate thoughts. Does that make sense?

Good point, Lisa. Positive thoughts, prayers, karma, maybe it's all really the same thing.

Amy, your comments are in line with my belief that prayers are often for the person praying, not for those they pray for. It helps the person not feel helpless, which can be both a good and a bad thing. Good, when there is truly nothing else they can do, not good when they use prayer to excuse them from what they could/should be doing instead. For example, if someone 'prays' for a neighbor to get better but does not vote for politicians who support healthcare for everyone, in my opinion that is a cop-out prayer and not a good thing. Or if someone prays for everyone to be happy, but supports politicians who promises they can hold on to that thirteen cents that might go to social programs that ensure everyone the basic necessities in life, that is not an honest prayer. If someone prays for a painless death for a person who has a terminal disease and no hope of recovery, I believe that is a good prayer, because hoping is truly the only thing that person can do for another in that situation.

Lisa, it makes sense to me. Your private thought prayer is probably the same as what I consider sending positive energy into the world.

And I'm still thinking about Jan's comment ;-)

Sandy -

Thought provoking topic, and what a thread! So very much to think about.


I personally offer to keep people "in my thoughts" rather than to pray for them. (Perhaps too many forced novenas in my youth....)

For me, that more often than not entails positive thoughts or wishes that the recipient will be able to draw from their own strength to deal with whatever the future holds.

I do believe in the power of positive energy and that well wishes and comfort can help from a distance though.

What I don't believe in is going through the motions of prayer without sincerity.

I like what Amy and Gisela had to say and others are saying about prayer being personal. I also respect Cheryl because she is very open about her beliefs but doesn't push them on others. When I get a mass email, it turns me off because I feel it's taking something that may be so personal for someone and just throwing it out there for everyone to read about.

Sandy, God is all-knowing and does not need us to bring people and events to His notice.

Prayer is not for God but for us - its very essence is INCLUSION and ACCEPTANCE of those we think of being, 'others' - others implies separation and distance. Prayer helps close the gap in our own awareness and experience.

Or so I believe.

Magi

Sandy -- thanks for the correction. And no apology necessary!

Everyone else -- I'd love to hear more reactions to the piece I wrote (which Sandy links to right at the start of his), if anyone has any. I'm going to post a group reply to the comments I've gotten thus far, but I would love some more perspectives before I do so...

I'm really enjoying this thread. Thanks Sandy for putting it out here.

As an Athiest who has lived in the Bible belt, the issues that Sandy brings up are close to my heart. I tell people that I am an Atheist, but that I understand, and I will pray for them in the way I know how.

I love all the different perspectives. I hope everyone will check out Stephen's article - link at the top of mine.

My pet peeve is expecting God to do for you or others what you or they should do for themselves. I am a big fan of personal responsibility. Perhaps I just never got the whole organized religion thing to begin with.

I can remember being 5 and in sunday school and thinking, "What a load of crap. Loaves and fishes, walking on water, noah's ark, do people really believe this stuff?"

Even then and all the way through forced confirmation, questions like the ones you've outlined above popped into my mind. Many people find church a relaxing experience, but my logical mind can't help reading the bible verse they are speaking about and analyzing how people in the 21st century put so much stock into a book written so long ago.

My favorite quote comes from Homer Simpson, when he is discussing Jews and older religions. He says, "Thank God we've come to our senses and worship a carpenter that lived 2000 years ago." Makes me laugh every time.

Probing questions Sandy, a very good read - the comments were excellent too.

Noticed the word "logical" in Katrina's comment. We Christians "put so much stock in The Book", because of faith not logic.

Sandy,

I'll attempt to answer some of your questions for you:

You see, heaven, just like every other place, requires a form of government to run 'efficiently'. And prayers are the currency upon which that government is run. And just like, for example, our government, s/he who has the most currency is first in line for all the perks!

As to the notion that your prayers are worth less than somebody else's who is, say, more pious than you, I say pshaw! It's currency. It doesn't matter where it came from or how it was obtained. All that matters is havin' it!

Nobody told you? God is a Republican.

Oops! I just read the comment before mine! Did I blow the whole "Civilly" thing? I feel so... sheepish.

;)

Donald, (and Liz) thanks for the smile. And thanks to everyone who has commented on this article.

Liz, and I am merely dutifully spreading the message our government is sending...

Appreciate your patriotism, Donald and Liz ;-)

All thoughts I grapple with too.

each perspective is arguably another glimpse at the truth.

amen

I'm glad you pimped this out today, Sandy.

I believe in Positive Thinking and I positively think I like your article.

Thanks, Kathy and Joanne. Tacky as pimping my own article might seem, it was much easier than trying to say this in the comment threads of the multiple articles where it seemed appropriate.

Sandy... what can I add to this? You know where I stand on the issue, as does everyone else, apparently. I almost understand the Hawaiian healer's process, knowing that the universe is a single entity, so if one element changes, everything else is affected as well. The problem lies in the arrogant myopia of humankind, which insists on believing it is special, separate and different from The Whole, further insisting that something they call 'god' is also separate and detached from the Cosmos. If "prayer" is defined as connecting with the Universal Mind, I can buy it. If, however, it's used as a way to ask Daddy for a favor, then it's just another manifestation of the self-delusion suffered by those who have been sucked into the mob mentality of organized religion. I almost said 'don't get me started' but it's too late. Sorry...I really didn't intend to turn this into a rant, but being in touch with the Cosmic Consciousness, I am divinely inspired, impelled to channel the words of Cyberia, as always.

I just tell people I will keep them in my thoughts and send positive energy to them....

If "prayer" is defined as connecting with the Universal Mind, I can buy it.

I totally agree. I believe strongly in universal knowledge, and that we can tap into that collection as long as we have contributed as much as we intend to take back out.

Roxanne, I believe that is a respectful thing to say. I usually say, "I'll keep you in my heart," and think that as the same message since my heart is a positive place.

"I believe strongly in universal knowledge, and that we can tap into that collection as long as we have contributed as much as we intend to take back out."
The problem with that is when one tries to share (contribute) understanding of the Universal Mind, one is castigated, vilified and preached at. Evidently, there is only one acceptable Thought, and it sure as hell cannot be the one that denies the existence of an anthorpomorphic deity.

Ruth, I don't know how I missed your last comment. Fortunately, someone googled this article today, I clicked to see which site google took me to, and see it now. My belief is that more the positive energy goes into the universal mind than the "one acceptable thought" contributions.