I have received a private message which i intend on making public
from a gather memeber who is on my connection list! Scott C.
He had written a comment to a poem i wrote about how i feel about the holocaust that made it seem insignificant, he went on to write that the jewish people have never had a homeland,,lets us deny the bibel while we are at it and history, Jerusalem does not exist,
Then he went on to put down zionism, and finally he wrote me a private message.
I had challenged his theory that jews are nomads by reminding him that jews were sent to exile after their land had been conquered two times and have returned again and again.
I reminded Scott C. of his ignorance about Jewish history and the central role israel plays in the jewish religion, Jews have mentioned Jerusalem and the land of Israel in every prayer while at exile, and i challenged him further asking him as he comes from canada, where his family came from, after all he threw a stone, let him exemine his glass house..was he an eskimo or a native to his land?
The answer ended with an antisemitic name :kike.
Gather people while we argue about moslems, jews, christians and sometimes get on the edge of politically correct, this remark went too far.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR RACIST REMARKS¨
Ï CALL FOR ZERO TOLERANCE TO SUCH NAME CALLING
IT STOPS NOW¨
I AM SHOCKED THAT THIS MAN IS A PARENT,
AND FEEL A DEEP SORROW HE IS SO BLIND WITH HATE
THIS IS NOT APOLITICAL DISCUSSION THIS IS RACISM ,
AND I FOR ONE WILL ERASE HIM OFF MY CONTACT LIST AND WOULD LIKE TO SEE HIM LEAVE GATHER FOR THIS RACIST REMARK
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Comments: 64
you and others have made gather a great place to be at, let us make clear limits to how far people can get!
it takes all kind i know but this is too far,way too far!
appreciate your quick response and courage to make a clear statement!
good point sandy!
Thank you for explaining to me, of this painful and hurtful adhominem attack and directing me to this essay you wrote in response to this inexcusable offence against you. I am sorry for you and the hurt you feel, and sorry that Gather is sullied by such hateful attitudes.
RKL
i appreicate your kind words!
sorry Sandy, i tried to send you a message twice and it did not go..how else can i send this to you? i wouldlike you to see this
RKL
i have no idea how to publish it, i therefore forewarded it to people on my net..thanks!
Alankrita! thank you! i
Take some deep breaths and continue your wonderful writings. I am with y ou 100%and so are all the decent people who subscribe to Gather.
Chazak, Chazak, Strength to Strength. Chodesh Tov! A good month!
P.S.If you haven't already, get in touch with a higher-up in the Gather organization.
with truth and light in their hearts failed to speak the truth
to others thus releasing light upon every dark heart and
shadowy place. We as Jews and Non-Jews have much
work to do to lighten this world. Thank You Sigalit for the
light that you bring to Gather and beyond,
Take care, and keep up the good work in here.
As John A points out, a few of us have run into Hogan Courrier, and I found him to be peurile, pendandtic and immature.
Name calling is unacceptable in places like Gather, where a small amount of courtesy is necessary to keep conversations going.
Those of you with fire in your belly over this, please let management know how you feel. I will.
THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN BEYOND ANYTHING I HAVE EVER SEEN!
Sorry...
Thanks for your comments. I can assure you that hate speech is not tolerated in any way on Gather and we're working with Sigalit directly to get to the bottom of this. I cannot speak directly in regards to any communication between the parties involved. But we will resolve this issue as soon as possible.
Ben
Ben Stephens
Member Services Manager
Gather, Inc.
I for one don't want to hear about people being called "kike" on Gather....
My biggest sore spots is the cavalier attitude toward the Natives of America and my second sore spot is the denial of the holocaust. The Jewish people have been driven from their land since it's inception and are still being persecuted.
Apologist and the ignorant never cease to amaze me, in a sad way.
I hope gather does something about this immediately.
I took a class at graduate school (education through the arts) called "sterotypes ", we learned about how extensive this is and we each had to confront our own demons..i was blessed to have had a german student in my class! i went through all my sterotypes list and decided to take that one on. I had interviewed her and a man i had met in a party (another interesting coincidence) about how they felt about the holocaust and read a book called "born guilty" where second and third generation germans talk about how they feel ..
I wrote amazing poetry, i am not sure where it is now, about my feelings and the german student cried her heart out, she could not stop crying after hearing me read a poem about my grandmother and her suffering at having lost her siblings and mother in concentration camps.
the holocaust never ends there, it continues and influences further generations in many ways, just as every war influences generations to come. I felt bad when the girl cried, she was a beautiful gifted woman who had worked with special needs children and was very nice, but the lecturer said to me, "dont feel bad, she never realized how she felt till now, you helped her connect her mind with her heart."
like "the little prince" says:
"It is with the heart that one sees!"
I have had difficulties dealing calmly with europeans , for years wondering where were they during the war but i think that emotional communication is not necessary a sign of an idiot , but it takes a lot of emotional intelligence to get to that place where the feelings and thoughts go together and form coherent sentences..this is definitely another article by itself history and how it is best taught..i believe that steven spielberg had documented people giving evidence, i certainly heard a lot about what happened to those who stayed behind in eruope and there is the diary of Anne Frank and other important documents ..
who wants to deny history will do so, but i think for the future generations to learn about this important topic as part of learning about racism all over the world , the pupils have to feel, they have to be able to connect to the dark places of those who were subjected to descrimination and those who did so..both sides need to be dealt with , not only on a rational factual basis but also on an emotional level to be genuine and for the lesson to be learned-never again!
br>Eric -when i saw your name, i said, there comes the cavalry!
you have become a hero on gather, and people refer to you when they need someone to speak on behalf of decency and humanism!
bravo!
while there is poetry and literature to add the emotional contexts and writers like anne frank and eli wiesel those experiences will not be forgotten nor disproved ..those people that seek mathematical proof will never be satisfied ..it is only people like you and i that feel strongly about the subject that can write about it that can make this a lesson in history no one will forget..if you don't believe that , there is nothing more to add..
Never shall I forget those flames which consumed my faith forever.
Never shall I forget that nocturnal silence which deprived me, for all eternity, of the desire to live. Never shall I forget those moments which murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to dust. Never shall I forget these things, even if I am condemned to live as long as God Himself. Never." -- Elie Wiesel, "Night"
It's easy for people to get emotional about this. But, for the record, you will never convince a Jew that there is too much emotion expended on this topic. We are in what my family calls the Survivor's generation. Those who survived WWII will be living with this until the day they die. No surprise there.
But the children and grandchildren live with this as well. Art Spiegelman's "Maus" does a better job than I at conveying the guilt, the blackness and the pain of the Survivor's children.
And, their children will also feel this pain, as events in Mogedishu and other places continue to prove that we haven't learned a damn thing from the deaths of 60 million people. Yeah, killing about half of the Jewish population was a horrible blight on humanity. So was Stalin's killing of at least that many of his own countrymen. Or Mao's. Or Pol Pot's. Or Milosevic's.
See, as much as people say they're getting sick of hearing about the Holocaust already, I get worried. Because Somalia's happening before our eyes, and the World hasn't learned a damn thing...
i agree though that caring about others and their hardship is perhaps the first lesson of the holocaust to all sides involved whether as victim or murdering side.
thank you for quoting eli weisel..it send shivers down my spine..that is a perfect exemple of an emotional message that makes a point..
i don't think the holocaust has to be proven like a mathematical equation ..it is about emotional intelligence too, it's about feeling empathy for someone's pain...the inability to do so is definitely not good news..how to educate? certainly it is a chapter in the dark history of racism , a big chapter but racism is the main topic, so there is nothing to prove..racism exists, whether it is to be taken lightly ,explained etc. i definitely think not!
the lessons must be learned, the horror is too great, we would like to think that in history people are getting more civilized , going beyond child sacrifice but then something like the holocaust or sudan or Rhuanda happens and you wonder how!
Incidently jews make up a large percentage of social workers, therapsits, and have been social revolutionaries and have spoken out against human rights abuse, everywhere and i mean everywhere. jews are the first to make a stand whether it is in their favor or not!
And, since there are several world agencies that provide population figures before and after WWII. How did the Jewish population in Europe disappear? Aliens?
Stalin reportedly killed 10 million Soviets during the purges. Not a record remains, but it's understood that it happened.
Pol Pot killed almost half his countrymen. No one was there to witness it. Did it not happen?
Now, since I've played your game, perhaps you should make your point. In my family alone, over 100 people were killed. Of the 21 family members that remained, 12 had tatoos from the death camps. Did I make that up?
Every Jew I now has a similar story. 10,000? In the first year of Auschwitz alone, the commandant complained that his ovens were clogged from the 150,000 executions and burnings.
Did I make that up?
Regardless, we have endless documents, eyewitness accounts, Nazi records (those bastards were efficient) and CORPORATE records proving the disappearance of millions.
If folks would like to conjecture that this disappeared without malice, they should watch a bit of archival video from Nazi Germany, with the subtitles, and see how they feel.
Every Jew has almost the same knee jerk reaction. The Nazis didn't set out to murder soldiers or Russians -- those were wartime atrocities, but not genocide. They systematically and with malice made plans to exterminate Jews, Gypsies and other undesirables. That's genocide.
It's not the same.
For me it is not the numbers though the number is shocking, it is the system of denial..that continues today...that is why i think those who take antisemitic or any racial comment for that matter seriously and protest it have to. There is a new generation there and it would be tragic if they lived in ignorance of how far racism can go!
now they are denying 911 too, which is for me just a symptom of the disease! i also protest this constant need to prove..my god people died, there is evidence..it is there in museums but those who live in denial will never be convinced..that is the whole point. what you want to is to target the new generation that is willing to learn, if there is no motivation to learn then you are wasting your time but people do seem to show interest and learn, all over the world ..it's just those ignorant few that make the headlines unfortunately ,because they enjoy the negative attention they get!
I get your point. To the extent that Jews continue on in this world, I don't think that we will shut up or forget.
The "latest" destruction of the Temple (you know, THE Temple in Jerusalem) was in 70 CE. Almost any Jew can tell which day that happened (the 9th of Av) and many spend the day fasting, praying and mourning that loss.
That was nearly 2000 years ago. The loss of life was terrible, but nothing on the scale of WWII. So, do you have any doubt that the murder of six million of us (more than half of all there was) will stay in our collective consciences? We will never forget. We will never shut up either (at least, I hope not).
I've been having a rancorous discussion with Abu on a similar topic. It's really hard to express or explain how this topic and the topic of Israel destroys any semblance or reason or rationality in most Jews.
When I'm not discussing these topics, I am thoughtful, gracious and sympathetic.
When the topic of the Holocaust or Israel comes up (or anti-Semitism, or human rights, in general), my logic circuit fries out. I have no off button. I get physicially ill.
Similar things happen to other Jews here on Gather and elsewhere in the real world. It's very difficult to explain.
I think that Palistineans must have the same strong emotions about this, and perhaps black Americans.
In any case, you're one of a number of likely fair-minded, decent people trying to have a rational discussion about important issues. And, you might be puzzled about how people like Sigalit, me and others respond.
Any other topic, and we'd probably be different. For these types of topics, it's like trying to have a civil discussion with a grizzly bear.
Hope you understand that none of this is personal toward you or anyone else.
i wonder why eric you think people don't undestand my reaction, many did , actually almost everyone here..i think i do a good job at explaining myself..and i wonder why you needed to put in "palestinians too ", this need to appease everyone is something i just don't need or feel..
the palestinians have their own history and their situation present and past is something i do not feel responsible for and i resent people that need to apologize to the palestinians while speaking about israel.
my daughter came home from school and mentioned she learned how Abraham bought the Machpela cave in Schem -what is it in English-not sure but occupied territories as it is called, i felt like crying , i mean the holliest place for jews is now a moslem mosque-it used to be the place of the temple that was destroyed twice, then all the historical places the graves of our forefathers are in palestinian land that was returned to them after Israel conquered it. who else gives back land? no one and it still never satisfies the nations..i don't feel the need to appease the world and feel john i don't need to explain the holocaust to nonjews , those who need mathematical proof can get it , those who argue whether it really happened -are either in denial or are ignorant fools. i don't argue that anything that happened -like the slaughter of the armenians happened, or abotu Rhuanda-i believe 100% it had happened, because i have seen enough proof, i don't care whether 1 million were killed in yugoslavia or 100,000 or 100-even one person is too much! and i believe because i know people who have lost people in yugoslavia and i know people who were tortured in Turkey and i even Know Arabs and i know their situation stinks and i feel bad for everyone but i know i am not responsible for any of those happening because i trust my heart and it guides me and it is a far better guide than any other compass..
you talk about history? what matters is now, you can't affect 100 years from now you can only change the now, and for now i will not and can not tolerate racism..and no ,eric, palestinians are not being discriminated, they choose to celebrate death and got land and still shoot missiles so they can not claim discrimination ...for years saddma Hussein wrote them checks to place bombs to kill innocents ,so now there are targeted assisnations of cowards that hide behind women and children, they use them as shields, you don't believe it , fine, i have no problem with that, what i do feel tired of is people making excuses..you don't believe-don't ..
i think it is quite enough for now, and i am really getting tired of people playing the fool.
i would never presume to argue with an Armenian about their holocaust when they were murdered by Turks why do you even think Jews owe you an explanation or to anyone?
what irritates me is the way Jews need to explain to the world things you would never dare ask anyone else..so the truth is that you don't ask the chicken to explain slaughter and you don't ask a jew to explain to someone who is not about the holocaust..history is not the problem the problem is peope playing around..questioning, poking a finger in other people's pain, i think you know or don't know-which ever is the truth you only know-about the holocaust ..the big question is how to battle racism , explaining numbers just does not get the point.ONE PERSON HURT BY RACISM AND RACIST REMARKS IS ONE TOO MANY ¨, O.K. ?
I don't need to read the contents of the PM that was sent to you S. The fact that it ended w yet another 'hater' calling you a racial/ethnic slur is just about all one needs to understnad the motives behind such irrational behavior. It's disgusting.
I'm just sorry i came so late to this discussion to add my .02. Be brave Sigalit, there are many here who value the truth rather than fundamentalist religous dogma. I'm sorry someone felt it was appropriate to call you names. Calling people racial slurs is completely inappropriate. That behavior alone speaks volumes for the kind of person Scott C is.
You know I'm one of your biggest supporters.
I have a slightly different take on this ugly incident.
I'm GLAD this moron used such an offensive term.. There are so many here who would like to be taken seriously, who use code words: Zionist,Zionist Occupation, Zionist Government, Israel - when we all know that what they mean is "Dirty Jew."
Please, those of you who read this, respond to the codewords as if the writer were saying what he really means - kike.
Keep fighting Sigalit - we're all proud of you.
Elmo one word:BINGO
that is exactly the issue, it is not a political discussion when people go about it with an idee fix about what jews can expect in this world:nothing!no land, no rights to a land of their own and in every attack on them support of the ones attacking..
emotional as i am about these issues, it's about time to call them a bluff and expose these arguements for the mind manipulative tactics they are...i support your attempts to expose these lies for what they are:racists!
Good luck friends!
In the "big leagues," they become the terror masters. This is their mindset.
i am no longer bothered by that comment though at the time i was shocked, having gone to school in the states i never once heard that word, but then this was new york..
i agree with elmo..this is just a symptom of the disease..
anyway time to move on to the next issue...he has not shown his face since..and i have more fish to fry..
thanks for the support!
Hate deserves nothing but contempt.