Today I read that GM is offering a debit card to buyers of its gas-guzzler vehicles. This deal is for California buyers only. California has the highest gas prices in the nation, and GM hopes to generate some sales by offering monthly prepaid debit cards to reimburse eligible customers "the difference between $1.99 a gallon and the average price of premium gas in California."
"We think we're going to sell some cars with this, said Susan Docherty, GM's Western regional manager. For a Hummer H2 driven 15,000 miles a year, a buyer would receive an estimated refund of $2270 over the 12 months. Eligible vehicles in California include the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon and Yukon XL, Chevy Suburban, all rated at 14/20 mpg. Also included in the list are the Hummer H2 and H3, and the Cadillac SRX. An EPA rating of 14 city means most people are probably getting around 11 or 12 mpg.
Meanwhile, Toyota is busily building as many of their Prius hybrids as they can, and losing money on every one. The Prius EPA mileage is 60/50. A friend who owns one is getting 45 in a mix of city/freeway driving. That's a real-world number, not an idealized EPA number. That is about four times the mileage of the GM SUV's listed above.
Is Toyota building all these high-mileage hybrids at a loss because they like giving money away? Hardly. Toyota is the most successful auto manufacturer in the world. They didn't get there by building cars at a loss.
So what's going on here? It's simple. Toyota management takes a long view of their business. They looked at the supply/demand situation for oil, and they correctly deduced that gasoline prices were going to go up…maybe not right away, but eventually. They may have also seen that the U.S., which is their biggest market, was running a huge deficit on oil purchases, and that this could not continue for long. So, they made a business decision that was not only helpful to the citizens of our country, but also good for the long-term prospects of their auto business. That's called smart, maybe even visionary management. They may lose money for awhile on Priuses, but meanwhile they are learning about building high-efficiency vehicles, and moving critical components down the cost/volume curve. They plan to make a LOT of money on hybrid cars in the future, and I have no doubt that they will.
Meanwhile, what does our biggest auto manufacturer, one that dominated auto sales in this country for most of the twentieth century, do? They continue to build huge, gas-guzzling dinosaurs, and now that Toyota's vision has proven to be correct, and gas prices have gone through the roof, they are trying to give money to people to encourage them to waste gas in their monstrosities.
A year from now, when the debit cards stop coming and gas is over four bucks a gallon, the buyers of those vehicles are going to be very sorry they let GM suck them in. They will still have the payments on their monster, plus huge gas bills, and zero trade-in value.
Which company is doing things that are best for our nation? Which company is more patriotic? Which company should you buy a car from?
Which company deserves to go down the tubes?
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by
Bert B.
Member since:
December 19, 2005 Toyota or Chevrolet...Which Buy is Patriotic?
May 30, 2006 12:54 AM EDT
(Updated: May 30, 2006 10:53 PM EDT)
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gm
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Comments: 67
I like this: "visionary management".
GM thinks it is 1950. I think they dig their executive staff from the graveyard.
Great article!
TI...yeah, I think they build dinosaurs because their management is from the same Jurassic period.
I actually worked for Toyota, in Japan, 10 years ago on their alternative vehicles. At that time there was the Prius, FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle) and Ecom. They were stead-fastly committed to hybrids and alternative energy cars back then, and they have only doubled their effort in recent years. People think that because the Prius only came on the market a few years ago - its rather new - this is actually 15 year old, proven technology. Your right - Toyota takes a very long view. They aren't selling those Pruis' at a loss because they are altruist, or because they love america. They are doing it to ramp up their sourcing from OEM suppliers to reduce costs and make the Pruis more economical to manufacture. Eventually, they know, when gas is $5/gallon (2008), American's will jump from their Hummers, Town Cars, and Explorers and Toyota will rule the world.
Toyota is not necessarily 'visionary', just progressive. And I'd bet that history will back me up when I say that the long-term winners in business are ALWAYS the ones who think and operate progressively.
I love my 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid. I live in a congested area and get 41-42 mpg in city driving where I can't go a block or two without a stop light, stop sign, mall turn-in or railroad crossing. This congestion extends into adjoining suburbs. I get 48-55 mpg in the country driving to Wisconsin and outlying areas for nature hikes. I also like the quiet of my hybrid and the continual feedback it gives me on how my driving affects mileage.
I have four colleagues who have had hybrids since 2001 and all love them.
If you think you have to buy American products, note that a greater percentage of the parts in the 2000 Honda Civic I previously had were manufactured in the US than for US cars.
Will...I wrote a piece called "A Glimpse of the Future" a few months ago predicting that gas would cost $10 a gallon by 2010. Some people pooh-poohed that prediction. I think it may have been too low!
Nowadays, figuring out what is an American car is not easy. I drive an Acura TL, which was designed and built in the US. Acura is a brand name owned by Honda corporation. Most Ford and GM cars have many components that were built in Europe or Japan. What is an "American car?" Auto companies today are multinational conglomerates. National identity is fuzzy for most makes.
Your Corolla may very well have been built in this country, by American union labor.
Chrysler Corporation is now owned by Mercedes, so is buying a Chrysler product a patriotic thing to do?
My advice...buy the best car you can buy for the money, and let the chips fall where they may.
The second "engine" is an electric motor...a pretty simple gadget with basically one moving part. No tuneups, no maintenance. It does add weight and complexity...the latter mostly in the controls. The Prius solution also has a planetary gearbox connecting both the engine and the motor to the wheels.
It's a very complex solution, but probably the best "working" hybrid on the market at the moment. I would hope that future designs can be simplified.
I don't know about bio-diesel. Like ethanol, it's gonna come from crops, and it takes a lot of energy to grow crops. Modern agriculture is a very energy-intensive business. Plus, it is using land that we are going to need for food for the ever-growing world population, especially since global warming (whatever its cause, it is happening) is desertifying farm land all over the world.
Tying up land growing fuel for vehicles seems to me to be unrealistic in the long run. Of course, you will read a lot about agribusiness pushing this hard. They can SMELL the subsidy money!
Before gas prices spiked, critics kept babbling about the difference in cost between a hybrid and a regular car would take years to cover the difference, perhaps in out of pocket cost. However i agree that toyota is being a pro-active more patriotic auto company. Aside from the hybrid technology, this country really needs to make a push for the new high tech diesels from honda, vw, and many other european companies.
While i have a scion tc a little sporty car i'm averaging 29 mpg, my fiance drives a diesel vw beetle and is getting 50 mpg on average.
I"m all for Toyota on this one over GM though.
I just read a stat...in 1998, America for the first time ever started importing more oil than it was producing domestically.
!!!
If that doesn't wake you up, I don't know what will. We are in some serious deep doo-doo here.
On the subject of patriotism, I believe we should think more globally. Like I said, the problem is not the price of gas right now. It is, instead, the price of gas in the future and the effects on the environment; and, that is a global issue.
Also, another problem exists in the realm of appeal. For the people who are in the market for a gas-guzzling car, they are looking to spend a big hunk of change. For that big hunk of change, they expect certain things like leather, GPS, DVD, etc. etc. The only cars Toyota makes for that market are the Land Cruiser and the Sienna. Both huge; both require a lot of gas. So maybe the point is moot?
We all need to think globally here and not just about one's self gratification. Hopefully the country will come around...
The payoff on fuel savings vs. higher hybrid vehicle cost is due to the new components of the hybrid that have not been manufactured in huge quantities before, and so they are expensive. That is one of the things Toyota is trying to address proactivelyl, by essentially subsidizing the Prius to get the production volume up. They are not alone in this. Honda is doing the same thing with their "soft" hybrids.
Kathryn...Japanese manufacturers win the JD Power awards every year for highest build quality. The Koreans are now challenging them. The new Hyundais are very solid cars! Our domestic companies have been forced to improve their quality just to stay in the game, and their cars are a LOT better than they were ten or especially twenty years ago. But the imports are still better. The Europeans, strangely, have fallen in quality. Mercedes used to be at the top, and now they are waaaay down.
Stephanie...Carter tried to wake us up to the dangers of reliance on foreign oil more than thirty years ago. All his programs to develop alternate sources and improve fleet economy were torpedoed by Reagan, and no administration since then has tackled the problem. I guess you could say we are all to blame for this. Carter showed us the problem, and basically we have ignored it ever since.
I don't really go along with the idea of "buying things" to make you patriotic or not.
For people who really love America, and the values that it represents, a free and open market place should be (or is) at the top of the list. This value is as close to an article of faith as you can get with our system of capitalism.
To say that it is more "patriotic" to buy American is actually the opposite, in my opinion. A true American patriot would reward the better product with her purchase, thereby preserving our free market system. That's a core value of democracy too -- let the best fellow win.
Gosh, I hope my sarcasm isn't showing too much...
I don't know if it's an issue of a company "deserving" to go down the tubes, since moral/social obligation seems inversely related to profit-making, and Americans LOOOOVE their big cars, despite the environmental impact. Companies succeed only by telling & selling people what they want no matter what it is, even though it's a deplorable way to be a human (or a society, for that matter).
So, why do Americans stubbornly refuse to drive more economical vehicles? I think that a lot of damage has been done to public perception by the big oil lobbyists' propaganda, and now people have an irrational belief that gas will be "cheap again any day now", even if reality proves otherwise.
But, for my gut reaction: Prius! Tiny hybrid cars! Yay!
Kelly...These same companies complain that overseas labor costs are lower and that's why they are losing money here. The management of GM is to blame for a lot of their losses, through exactly what you say...shortsigntedness.
Eric and Tina,
Right on!
But, when arguments such as this are made, I like to revisit the A I received in my Logic class in college a few years back and then use a quote a classmate told me way back during the innocent years that were fifth grade:
"Nine out of ten dentists recommend Crest toothpaste for their patients, but they only talked to ten dentists."
The automakers are selling SUVs, yes, good for them, but they are selling them to the type of person who doesn't lose much sleep at night when gas prices creep above $3 a gallon. No, the wealthy aren't really all that affected by a .25 rise in a month's time. The SUVs GM points to when it says we are all idiots for saying SUVs are worthless? Why, it's the Escalades and Suburbans, the flagship cars that typically go for more than $45,000!
Like many in positions of power in today's America, the GM's of the world have messed up and now have deemed it in our best interest that we forgive them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if by this time next year GM was asking for a bailout, much like the airlines did following 9/11.
And Toyota doesn't have any bloated pension plans to worry about either -- but that's a whole new can of worms now isn't it?
The unions negotiated those "bloated" pension plans in lieu of higher wages or other bennies. GM management agreed to them. It is true that the "legacy" that GM...and Ford and Chrysler...have in hundreds of thousands of retirees is not shared by Toyota, Honda or the other imports...their plants have not been in this country long enough. Eventually, they will have the same burden...it's part of the cost of doing business...providing retirement plans. Every business has that problem, although many are trying to get out from under their obligations. I'm holding my breath on mine...
" Bigger Is Bulgier"
It's part of their new truth in advertising campaign.
On the factory setup point, they could have easily tooled for high-mileage vehicles several years ago if they wanted to. I don't think it is just corporate momentum that is the problem. I think GM and Ford decided consciously that they did NOT want to compete with Japan, Inc. on high-quality small cars, and so they have planned and executed a deliberate campaign to glorify big, off-road, 4WD vehicles, because they are high-profit products. 95% of the things will not go off-road in their entire lives! And here in Southern CA, 4WD in a freeway commuter vehicle is totally useless. It is a marketing stragegy aimed at maximizing profits, even when the products are totally inappropriate for their intended use.
Okay, can't blame them for maximizing profits, but when gas prices started to rise inexorably, they refused to heed the signs. That is corporate myopia, and they deserve their fate.
Toyota may be losing money on the hybrids but the dealers aren't. They are charging a $5,000 dealer mark-up (over sticker) on both Prius and the new Camry Hybrid. They can't keep in stock. A used Prius basically sells for what a new one is supposed to sell for (I priced 'em last weekend).
GM's all messed up. I read not too long ago about how some ridiculous portion of the cost of each car goes to health care and retirement benefits for its employees. I confess I didn't really understand the whole thing but the point was that these are costs their Japanese competitors don't face. Coupled with the fact that Toyota can charge a premium for its better made cars (meaning GM has to discount to sell cars), GM is pretty much screwed and gets left with some tiny margin compared to Toyota.
I've checked them all out and I like the Nissan Versa the best. It's not quite available yet but will be any day now.
By comparison, the Camry and Prius are both going for around $30K (not loaded) to $35K (loaded) after the dealer mark-ups.
I don't think Priuses are jacked up that much around here is Southern CA. I have a close friend who bought one a few months ago for around 24K...right at sticker.
I have been thinking about replacing my low-mileage, absolutely pristine '99 Acura 3.2 TL for a higher mileage vehicle. The Acura will probably run trouble-free for another ten years at least, the way I drive it and maintain it, but I thought I should "do the right thing" and drive something more "responsible." I was intrigued with one of the cars you mentioned...the Honda Fit. So I started pricing it. It's new to the US market, but has been sold in Europe and Japan for several years. Nice little "Swiss Army Knife" car. Trouble is, the dealers are jacking them up, demanding up to $2K above sticker. I don't chase "hot" cars...that is dumb.
So...I guess I'll drive the Acura for awhile. It's a very, very nice car that gets about 21 mpg around town and near 30 on the road. Gobs of power, nice handling...sigh... I love it. I think I'll hold off for a year or three or five...
I was at a high volume Toyota dealer last week and they had ZERO hybrid Camry's or Prius'. The guy told me $5k over sticker for either one -- although that was "negotable" he said (I hate that crap).
I agree with you on not chasing "hot" cars. You might as well throw whatever premium you pay right out the window 'cuz you're never gettin' that back on resale.
Check out the Versa hatchback from Nissan. Loaded with every possible option it's around $18k and should be available early July. I actually saw one and sat in it (didn't drive it). It is amazingly big and comfortable inside for such a small car. They've also decked it out with tons of options because (maybe like the Fit) it's been sold in Europe and Japan as a small "luxury" car.
The other thing about Nissan is I think they are less prone to the dealer mark-up than Honda. For some reason, I think Nissan is considered a little "down-market" from Honda and Toyota. Not sure exactly why. I think Nissan's cars are just fine.
But since then, I have had a love affair with Nissan cars. I was really, really tempted by the new 350Z, but then I saw the Infiniti coupe that is mechanically the same as the Z, but really beautiful....sigh.
Yes, I know 4 door coupe shoud be a misnomer but I think they kinda pulled it off.
Check out the Versa. It's kinda fun if you get yourself in the right frame of mind. It seems like a great value to me.
Personally, I think Mercedes cars are outrageously overpriced and overrated. Where I live, everybody seems to want a Mercedes. I saw one with a license number the other day "VPCHEVY." VP as in Villa Park, where the rich folks live. I live two blocks on the other side of the tracks in the city of Orange. I call it the Orange Slums.
Never mind me, this is a huge pet peeve, me and the SUV. By the way, you can't hardly buy a Prius here. You can order one and wait six months. But if you can afford a Prius, you can afford the SUV and you can drive that one home off the lot the same day. Big Oil still runs Oklahoma and you don't want to be caught dead driving a hybrid car. GASP how could you put those poor Oil Millionaires out of business?
I share your distaste...maybe even hatred...for SUV's. They do not fare that well in crash tests, and poorly in rollover tests because of their high center-of-gravity. It's a myth that they are safer than small cars, but they do pose a threat to small cars because of their weight and poor maneuverability. Even though the Honda Civic is a 5-star performer in crash tests, it will not fare well in a crash with a Ford Excursion which weighs twice as much. I think the big SUV's should have much higher liability insurance. They are a threat to people driving sensible cars.
Actually, I think they should be illegal.
I can tell you personally that I didn't used to give a damn about that stuff and now I'm (finally) coming around. I think people are waking up.
It's probably a combination of (i) getting hit hard in the pocketbook by gas prices, (ii) growing/renewed awareness of the dangers of dependence on foreign oil, and (iii) growing awareness of environmental issues. My guess is it's probably in that order, too.
I think we should all drive big SUV's or whatever we want, suck all the oil out of the ground, and get it over with. The more economical cars become on gas, the longer big oil will stay in power. Playing into their hands if you ask me.
Give me a big truck, with performance to go uphill with a load, that has room for all my crap, and that doesn't run on gas, and I'll buy it. It can be done, just get the oil companies out of the way.
Probably (just being honest) in that order of importance to me.
Oil prices are what the market will bear. The higher they are, the less we will use, and that's good, so high oil prices are a good thing. They will eventually force us to do what we should have been doing all along.
Conserving, finding alternate sources, etc.
I am shocked thet you would think an american business could be short sighted! It is very patriotic to get what is left of the middle class to spend as much as possible on gas and vehicles (a wasting asset). This way the rich owners of the large corporations can continue to consolidate the wealth in this country. The rich get richer! That is the new American way. Anyone who dissagrees is clearly unpatriotic! Of course we know what patriotism is............
Neither. See my comment in this article about the 'dumbing down' of cars (American cars specifically because that is the research that was done). I'm not making this up. Our wonderful American cars are re-sold in China after dumbing them down to pollute the air MORE. So why buy American when they do this unpurpose? It's stupid. And it's taking advantage of a country that loves all things American (hence the long lines each time a Walmart opens...people line up for days when a new one comes in).
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976757148
Leah,
I agree. The question in my title was rhetorical. As several commenters, including me, have said: Buy the best car for the money, and ignore the country of origin, which is pretty obscure anyway, since most cars have components made all over the world.
Toyota, Nissan and Honda have all built huge plants here, and they pay good wages, comparable to the union shops of the Big Three. But their cars are, in general more sensible, with better build quality.
Personally, I am a Honda fan. I have driven a lot of Hondas, and I just like the way they work, the way everything on the car feels right, works smoothly. I admire Toyota's build quality, and I have owned a Nissan that was a great car, and two Mazdas...but given a choice, I'll buy a Honda.
Maybe patriotic is the last refuge of scoundrels and one might find a word that functions better to achieve some more universal benefit than that of archaic and destructive nation-states. Sorry to cloud up and rain on your parade, but nowadays patriotic means murderous, lying, arrogant, torturing elites who are above the law and accountable to no one.
It is hardly an appropriate word to describe a car purchase.
TTFN
marty
You are totally correct. "Patriotism" has become a word to use to manipulate people. It has little, if anything to do with loyalty toward one's homeland. Patriotism breeds nationalism...or is it the other way around. The result is war, intolerance and hatred. It is nothing more than tribalism writ large.
As I have said, the title was rhetorical, and aimed at those who bash cars built by other than the Big Three, as being "unpatriotic" to buy. I know people who feel this way. The selfish, shortsighted marketing strategy described in the article is the antithesis of 'patriotism'...bad for the country, bad for the world.
It's WORLD 'patriotism' that we need to foster. Responsible behavior that minimizes degradation of the ecosphere.
Yes, we are all one people on one very small planet, and there's no other place to live for billions of miles.
I do believe tho, that industry is merely a progression of successively more efficient technologies, and we're on the cusp of great leaps forward.
Unfortunately, patriotism has to apply to the planet, as you said, and we need Matriotism, too.
driving a 3.9 liter dakota six, four-by, with AC. Wife's car: Hyundai Elantra, over thirty mph, hwy.
fun read!
marty
the diesel engine was designed to run on hemp oil, given Germany's lack of petro products.
hemp diesel is not a carcinogen like petro diesel and has no poisonous by-products I know of.
BUT-- even tho industrial hemp will not get anybody high, try getting Congress to allow us to grow the same crop George Washington and Thomas Jefferson grew for its utility and marketability. The real drug lords in corporate America would never approve. In fact, I suspect the alcohol prohibition law of the 1920's was engineered by Standard Oil to create a monopoly on auto fuel.
just a note to show we could be energy-independent right now if we had the will.
marty
I have read quite a bit about hemp. It is a much more productive crop than cotton for clothing fiber too. But the DEA (I think it's that agency) stonewalls anybody who tries to grow it. The claim that they aren't opposed, and that anybody can apply for a license, but in practice they have not issued any licenses in the last thirty or forty years. The stuff that is grown for fiber has a very low drug content, but the bureaucracy refuses to budge.
and the oil companies are owned by
the same people. This is a relationship
that has developed over the years due
to the both nature of the business and
the nature of the system. So, when oil
profits (dividends) are up, auto can take
it easy, lay off several thousands and
reorganize production. Plenty of mutual
interest, there.
I don't doubt your statement about common ownership, but I would like to know how you learned this. I haven't really researched it, but I have never seen any evidence, and I would like to confirm it. It explains a lot about why Detroit has adamantly refused to build high-quality small cars, it it is true.
I love your ship picture! Looks like a clipper ship. Which one? I've seen a picture like that of the Flying Cloud. I think the clippers were the most beautiful ships ever built.
Tom Pritchard ....June 14, 2006
Really enjoyed your dialogue with all concerned. My compliments.
marty