Ethics, Morals, Honesty - Seven syllables, three words, carrying the weight of the world

Truth equals consistency. I can get behind that. But would you also agree that a person who pursues truth must also be open-minded, willing to let his or her point of view change in the face of new information?

I agree Sandy,
but I have abandoned the use of the word truth, so much abused it is.
I like to use the word fact.
A fact can be misused, and often is, but it is still a fact.
I also have a lot of issues with people calling themselves principled and honest then, doing whatever is convenient at the moment.

Sandy - I agree. The "blurred lines" are everywhere. It is a constant struggle for me to try to approximate the ideals you describe, but at least I try. So many I know don't. Others don't even understand the principle. Good article. Sorry that you had to write it.

This is a complicated subject, but you took it straight to the point. Very well done.

Hey, do you ever get the feeling that you're talking or listening to a person's 'doorman' instead of the actual person. That's the guy/gal who stops all information at the threshold of the brain. He looks it over, turns away anything that would conflict with the person's desires, attitudes and past actions, then lets in the rest. Everything that gets through serves to confirm that that person has been, is and will continue to be the most honest and ethical person he/she has ever met.

It's a very efficient, yet disturbingly creepy system.

Such an interesting and thought-provoking article Sandy. It really made me stop and think., I too like to think of myself as a moral person... and I would never shop at Walmart LOL, but that's because there goods are really shoddy. I don't like the way they do business, but my moral lines are definitely blurred in this instance... and in many more, I'm sure.

I appreciate your candor, Sandy. Well done.

Great thoughts Sandy, right on the money.
For me morality is indivisible and discomforting. (I have just sent off a letter of apology for doing something [minor] that was nagging at my conscience.)
Long ago I adopted a Buddhist practice that was suggested in a Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai publication - before drifting off to sleep I examine my feelings to see if I am disturbed by anything and if I discover a current of anxiety I try and trace it back to its source. - Invariably, when such a source is discovered, it proves to be an occassio9n where I have unthinkingly breached my own moral code. By attending to these small misdemeanors I usually manage to keep my garden free of weeds.

PS - My personal bugabear is those people who adopt a moral code and keep it as a pet. And while always happy to walk up and down the street showing off their fine pet they are also the ones who leave it chained up in the backyard whenever they go out at night. (And if it barks too loudly at night they are quite likely to purchase double glazing.)

I've been taught to "say what you mean, but don't say it mean". And I've also learned that simply because I think something needs to be said, doesn't mean that I'm the best person to say it. You seem to be the best qualified Gather contributor to write this candid article. I wish I could say it as well.

Ultimately, honesty is the best way we love each other.

Sandy, what you have raised is a moving feast - truth, honesty, ethics, morals .... change almost moment to moment, for all are subject to interpretations of what has, is or might occur. We can but try our best in the circumstances pertaining while following our individual stars, and be guided by a higher power feeding back to us via our feelings and the reactions of others. Or so I believe.

Magi

What a great article (Honestly, Sandy, I mean it). And I agree with you. I am a firm believer in personal integrity and responsibility, and the golden rule. Somethimes, though, I feel like I am a fool to stick to standards when no one else does.
I pay all my taxes, I don't shop at Walmart, ever, and I don't willingly harm others. But when I see people getting away with cheating, I get frustrated, because they ended up "winners" in this game we all play. Good guys often do finish last. But fear not, I'm not going to change my ways; I just don't always feel all that great about it.
Ah, it's hell being me.

Excellent article, Sandy. And it's not just that "honesty is the best policy," even though it is. It's a matter of having personal integrity, which can sometimes require a lot of courage.

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
thou canst not then be false to any man." - (Act I, Scene III) Hamlet, W.S.

And that just might be the hardest trick of all.

As usual, you and I think alike. I believe we were twin sisters a couple of lives ago. Besides all that you said that was right on, what I hate is talking to somebody and trying to figure out what their double meanings are.

good thinking article!

Sandy, you provoke a lot of thought and introspection here. How many times do we think we are being "true" only to find that we have erred. For me, as much as I try to act with honesty and integrity, it amazes me at the end of the day to realize how fallable we are as human beings. For the most part, I guess trying to adhere is the better good nonetheless.

There are nuances to consider; but, on first review, well said! The current idiot in the white house could use a lesson.... in any and all of the above....

Wow! I get so excited when an article generates real discussion in the comments. You guys have added so many great thoughts to the topic. I appreciate that very much. Mark thanks. JohnnyI absolutely agree that a person who pursues truth must also be open-minded, willing to change opinions, and to admit that change. That is part of truth. Over the years, I have learned that I was terribly misinformed on several topics, and that I had spread that misinformation to others. For me, the ethical solution was to apologize to those I had misinformed, tell them what I had learned, and continue to do all I can to share the correct facts with others. TISigh… I understand and share your sorrow in seeing a word turned inside-out (I've written two articles on other words I miss). I also argue the difference between fact and opinion quite often. I spoke of truth in this article, because I do believe two people can take the same set of facts, filter them through their personal experience and principles, and sometimes come to different personal truths. I share the issue you stated in your last line ;-) RichardBeing aware is the most important part. Nobody is perfect (although I've know a few I thought close), but I think if we define these words and know ourselves, we stand a much better chance of getting close. ChrisThanks, Chris. I try to hit things head-on. And I do get that feeling sometimes. DDThanks for stopping to think with me. I've had this on my mind for some time, and appreciated something coming up to make me dig into it. A little self-examination always feels good. Cat thanks! Jim, Somehow, I knew this about you ;-) Nothing feels better than clearing the conscience. Mind if I share your bugabear? Cheryl I really like that "say what you mean but don't say it mean" … a lot .. thanks, for the quote and the compliment. Nicolamoving feast.. yes! We are growing always, and should re-evaluate our beliefs as we do. Nancy Thanks! I understand what you are saying, and have been there myself. However, I realize that winning is more than it appears. Sometimes, those with no ethics appear to have more or be in higher positions, but I truly do not believe they feel like winners, and isn't that where it really counts? They know their truth, and it must hurt to carry that around. Meryl thanks – and I agree, it does take courage to live with integrity. Ronald another great comment – I love that you guys are coming up with all these great supportive comments. If we aren't true to ourselves, what's left? Carol I'll check with mom ;-) Duplicity – that's on my 'to write about' list, also Mandi thanks! Donna I think stopping at the end of the day to ask that question means you have integrity ;-)

Peter, you slipped in during the transfer! Thanks, and I agree.

Great article Sandy. I only wish I could see the world as clearly as you.

I do as I wish, as we all do. Sometimes i wish to do better, so I do. Sometimes I don't, so I don't. But we all always do as we wish.

Stephen, thank you. I'm not sure I see much clearly, but I do try to keep looking at things until I see through the fog.

Dan, thanks for reading and commenting. I can't agree with you that we all always do as we wish. I think many people see an easier way, or wish to react in vengence or selfishness, but don't because they know that wouldn't be the right thing to do.

I worked with a company that claimed to be founded on "christian principles." One of my consultancy colleagues pointed out that the underlying principle was "the end justifies the means" as all their managers lacked moral fibre. But as Christians they had a very literal mindset. Even if you don't tell all the truth, so long as nothing you say is a fabrication you are not lying and have done nothing wrong. Of course, to tell paert of the truth, leaving out whatever is inconvenient is more dishonest that plain, simple lying such as "I wasn't there, I saw nothing." And so we get into the gap between moral honesty and "truth."
And that gap is what lets a lot of killers, rapists, muggers and corporate crooks walk free.
But I guess I am getting us into a philosophical minefield far too dangerous for Gather.
love
Ian

You wrote:
To me, truth is not limited to delivering honest statements. It is living honestly, by the same set of morals and principles every day, in every situation, with everyone.

This should be etched in stone, Sandy and I love you for it!

Sandy, while I don't know what circumstances caused you to write this, it is refreshing to see someone who has high principles and will not waver from them.

There is a particular company that I used to work for that manufactures beautiful clothing, but the owner is a tyrant and makes the working environment horrific for employees. I would never purchase or wear anything produced by this company, because to me doing so would say that I support the way they do business. I see people all around me that wear this line and when I tell them about the owner and the company and why I will never support them, I hear "But the clothes are so nice!".

I agree that you must be honest in everything you do, and in the way that you live your life. Ian's comment about the company he worked for said that their philosophy was that if you didn't actually "say" the lie you aren't part of it. To me, a lie of ommission is still a lie. I have been criticized for being too honest for not supporting that way of thinking.

At the end of the day everyone has to answer to the face in the mirror. Hopefully that face is honest enough with themselves to see if there are lies staring back at them.

BTW Sandy, I must also comment that you are a terrific writer. When I read things that are very well written it shows me how far I have to go in my own novice writing journey.

This is an article that really makes you think are you being an honest person, a truthful person, and even though we would all like to think we are, most of us are not.

I already put my two cents in earlier, but I wanted to say that I'm really enjoying the comments on this post.

Ian, my dear friend, I would love to tread that philosophical minefield with you, and hope there are many on Gather willing to do the same. The gap between moral honesty and truth is such a huge gap, yet so easily overlooked. I believe this is the most important issue of the world, and if this were the real conversation we wouldn't have to debate the individual political issues – they would fall into place once the gap was closed. Safi, thank you. Think we could post them at the courthouse, and in every public building if I etched them in stone? Ferrero, There wasn't any one circumstance that prompted me to write about this. Honesty has been extremely important to me since I was very young. I remember my first internal debate on the topic as somewhere around the age of seven. I thank both you and Ian for the employer stories. I have a good one myself, but didn't want to make my article so long no one would read it. I love that you have personalized it for me. I believe that mirror at the end of the day will catch all of us, and I'd prefer to see as few lines as possible when I look there. And thank you for your compliments on my writing. I too have a long way to go on the journey and hope we can do it together. Cassandra, Music to my ears! Everything I write is with the intention of encouraging others to think. Thank you. Heather, I don't believe there is one universal truth, I believe there is one truth for each of us. However, I think if our individual truths are founded in fact and honesty, we come to individual truths that encourage us to live peacefully with others. Like you (if I understand you correctly), I believe ethics trump everything for me. Donna, Thanks, Donna. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. I was away most of the day and finding this when I got back was such a thrill! Thanks everyone!

Ohhh you, you twisted my arm.
I'll start a philosophical debate group as soon as I can think of a witty name that suggests things are not to be taken too seriously.

Thanks, Ian. I look forward to that group!

very wise words from you, sandy, as well as others in the thread. if we all lived our lives with honesty, love and compassion those blurred lines would become crystal clear. i know that will never happen universally, but i will try to take heart when i see someone take those tennets as their own.
thank you for this.

Sandy, I'd like to also mention that I love the way you combine your responses to multiple people in one comment. So much better than reading multiple single thank you's. I'll be doing the same. Thanks.

The comments here are more valuable than the article. I came to you with a topic that is important to me, and you gave me so much to grow with. Thanks again, to each of you.

to many, ethics, morals, and honesty are flexible when suitable.

SE K, I had made it my mission to ignore you, but after that comment I simply can't. If ethics, morals and honesty are important to you, then why are you hiding? It's obvious to all on this site that you are an ACTIVE member's alter-ego, so just come out with it and be HONEST!! Or, was the comment you just left what you say when YOU look in the mirror?

Thank you, SE K. I always find your short responses meaningful, and I agree with you on this one.

Sandy, I think we have to avoid categorizing someone as unethical based on unethical actions, only. Sometimes consistent ethical practices emerge and are refined over time, even for adults. We all have morality, I agree. I maintain that TRUTH LIVING IS AN HONEST SOUL IN ACTION. We cannot be in the position to adjudicate between ethical actions and unethial actions about all things in life. For example, if I acted ethically and honestly in every instance, I might disenfranchise myself from having long-term positive ethical effects on others. Also, a Dr. with a cancer patient might present the worst case scenario, when in fact things are not THAT bad. OR, we might compliment a mentally retarded child in public when his.her parents greet us. Opportunities to learn are often the result from ethcial shortcomings. Hwo we apply THOSE learned elements is as much ethical as the very ethic by which we have fallen short.

Ethics in an imperfect world are just that--IMPERFECT. Nevertheless, the truth still exists, and so too does morality, in my opinion. I think we should not assume that children understand the ethical dilemmas or struggles we perceive as adults.

As a teacher, I often have to compromsie my ethics in order to remain moral--MORAL for a student on his level. For example, I have to squelch the urge the correct any and all errors when I know it might cease the development of confidence and relationship with him, or the group. Compromising ethics does NOT mean backtracking from what is right, or diminish one's morality. I believe it is a way to walk with someone to a higher ethic. In other words, I am not gving up anything by delaying the delivery of my own ethic, or a better way, to the situation.

With respect to stock investing, let's say . . . how many really check to see that their investments are not going to support causes or ethical practices that are contrary to their morality? How many would keep theior child on a sports team if a coach acted unethically, but the team always wins? How about a teacher who cuts corners and inflates grades out of compassion to struggling students in 2nd grade? Would anyone argue that the actual lower grades be assigned? LOL

I could get carried away by asking how ethical it is to place chemicals in our mouths to brush our teeth. How ethical is it to eat certain foods, shop at certain stores, etc. These are all the right questions to ask--and MORE. Yet, in asking, we must also understand to accept the imperfect answers in an imperfect world.

Thanks for the provocative thoughts Sandy!

Imperfectly yours . . .

I agree with Ernie. In this day and age even the most pious of the people the I know (and I know many bishops and leaders in different denominations) have to suspend their integrity on some level just to survive. I can't think of one item I use regularly that can be consumed without guilt on some level, assuming supporting this country's economy is conscienable. Most people seem to have a "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy when it comes to their daily lives. I am so glad that nearly everybody who commented on this post professes to have such integrity or attested to their own moral strength. I thought Sandy might actually have had reason to write the article in the first place. It's good to know we can all parrot power words without breaking a sweat.

This reminds me of the difference between doing "whats right" and doing "what's best"... they are often not the same action.
Best is generally the easy way, justified or rationalized to fit the action.
Right can mean having to make a sacrifice, or an acceptance of responsibility that is not "easy."

I agree with recent posts. "Truth" can be like a live eel in your hands after you've run a marathon (slippery enough?). White lies aren't oxymoronically troubling and ethically tempting for nothing. And sometimes your "fib" can be someone else's "truth." So, in the big picture, if I can make someone happier, more effective, more hopeful, more successful, and more relaxed by telling a technical untruth, I will.

It's like, who would you rather be behind in a war situation: a man who projects courage, leadership, grace, and hope? Or a man who freely admits he's scared to death. Choice A for me. And as a parent, how often did you reassure your young child that EVERYTHING was OK, even when you weren't so sure yourself? To get into doubts, fears, etc., with a kid? Nah.

You see what I mean, I hope. I understand your point, Sandy, and support it -- but I also see the whole topic as gray. It'd be NICE if it were black and white always, but sometimes principle stubbornly held to can work against you (and/or others). No?

sandy - great article, and great discussion. thank you for writing this, and starting such a great dialogue. i love that hamlet quote. i love that play - it seems so stark, there, the whole morals thing.

i won't shop at walmart. i refuse. i try as hard as i can to live honestly and ethically and morally. it drives me crazy when people don't. yet we're all human - if itis a deliberate choice to act unethically, i can't stand it. yet, when it comes from ignorance, then it is a role i can choose to teach or set examples. that is hard - knowing when to help (and when to accept help!)....nothing is black and white, i fear. there will always be shades of grey. i just hope that i can make the best decisions and actions possible.

Agree with Wal-Mart, unfortunately we have like three in our State (Vermont)-- somehow I feel like we defiled ourselves by letting them in. At least two are limited to the size of their store. But it is tough counteracting them when your State is next to New Hampshire -- where libertarian has come to mean rape, pillage and plunder. If they would just live up to their State motto.

HONESTY - I differ here. Like Cheryl I have learned that brutal honesty is not the answer. THere are ways to say things that are truthful without being harmful or hurtful. Also, because I perceive something as wrong does not make it s; it means I would not do be comfortable taking that action.

With that said, I also believe certain positions and jobs call for a higher standard of behavior. This is sometimes called a position of authority or fiduciary standard. I am thinking specifically of financial, banking, teaching, clergy, officers, CEOs, board members. These fields call for a higher code of ethics. It is why I have no use for the Keatings and Ken Lays of this world. They turned their back and made a mockery of business standards. They not only cheated the public but compromised the companies they represented and the positions they held.

As for Wal-Mart I am conflicted. I like them okay as store but not as a super store. Because, I do not qualify for any subsidized programs my set disability income must pay for both myself and my daughter's monthly living expeses I need a store like Wal-Mart to keep the costs down throuhout my community.

I've given these comments a lot of thought before responding. I do believe it is possible and imperative to maintain my ethics, always. I do not invest in mutual funds or make blind contributions to groups of causes. I believe I am responsible for everything I do and contribute to. Because I believe that, I must honor that as my truth. If others have a different morals or consciences that allow them to close their eyes to how far their actions extend, the truth for them will be different. When I look at a retarded child, I am not lying when I compliment him/her. I have never been in a position where I couldn't discuss social or behavior issues with any child and not disenfranchise myself from having long-term positive ethical effects on them. Never. I suppose I'm very fortunate in that my experience has truly been the opposite. Extremely troubled kids usually attach themselves to me and thank me for my honesty. If my experience were the opposite, I would have a different truth. As for toothpaste, etc. If a person believes it is unethical to use toothpaste, I say he should not use toothpaste. I don't have a problem with it, so I can use it without violating my ethics. And as for the team with the unethical coach – I believe many parents WOULD keep their child on if that meant they always win. I wouldn't be one of those parents, but I know those parents. I don't shop at stores that violate MY ethics. I don't eat anything that violates MY ethics, and don't respect anyone who does things that violate THEIR ethics. I hope that makes my position a little clearer.

To push this a little further...with products, toothpaste being an example, to what degree does ignorance play into any persons probity? I think that everyone does what they think is right but most people don't know what is wrong. We take conveniences in our lives for granted and outsource the pollution and overall cost to other nations and other peoples. Is not knowing about this a good excuse for not doing anything to stop it?

Great questions, Cat. I believe ignorance is excusable when the information is not available, or a person lacks the intellectual resources to comprehend that information. When the information and intelligence are present and people choose to ignore them, I believe ignorance turns into stupidity, and is not excusable.

I ran onto the most delicious quote the other day.

"Honor is an island with no beaches. Once you leave it, you cannot go back"

Great quote, Summer! Thanks.

Good article, Sandy, about issues of real importance to everyone.

For me, ethics and morals are different things. Ethics are absolutes, those standards which never change and have not changed since the memory of man runneth not to the contrary.

On the other hand, IMHO, morals are customs from the the Greek word mores which means customs. Morals change, slowly perhaps, but they certainly have changed greatly over my lifetime. Morals are what society considers to be acceptable today and may be quite different from a different society on a different continent or in a different time.

I was brought up to respect values and the very highest standards of them, in other words ethics. I was not allowed to consider morals as being my standards. Even so it took me years to understand integrity, honesty and loving my neighbor. I started out being brutally honest and that caused me to say things that were true but to say them at the wrong time, at times which were inappropriate and often hurtful to others. I eventually learned that the need to be honest does not trump love, compassion and humility, and that it is possible to be honest while at the same time being very compassionate, loving and humble.

IMHO, honesty is never saying anything that you don't think is true, emphasis on think. Integrity is never saying anything you don't know is true, emphasis on the word know. I had to admit at the age of 34 that my integrity was low because I did not know for sure that what was coming out of my mouth was true. Honesty, for instance, is far too low a standard for business and thus full integrity is what's needed in business.

How would I get integrity? I decided to stop talking about things I did not know were true. That made me start to examine things very carefully and not to spout them until I had thoroughly investigated them, tested them, and proved that they were really true before I could give them to someone else. Needless to say, I had to pretty well shut up for a few years until I had the chance to investigate things like welfare, economics, tax policies, liberty, socialism, communism, the IRA in Ireland, education, etc, enough to understand what is true. At the time I was a practicing nuclear engineer operating and maintaining naval nuclear power plants long accustomed to having to hit the books so it was easy for me to accomplish these things, but very time consuming.

Loving my neighbor was another really tough one. Is love a feeling or an action and who is my neighbor, my boss? It took me years to finally admit that everyone is my neighbor, that love is an action and that I should act in such a way to make my neighbor think that I loved him/her. It took me years to figure out those actions and to figure out loving actions that were still compatible with being the boss of hundreds of people. I believe that I did arrive at the ethical standard in each case, but it took me years of consistent effort. Achieving a high standard of humility is likewise a daunting task.

Ben Franklin had twelve virtues which he studied and tried hard to achieve. He added humility as his thirteenth at middle age.

Just my own experiences relevant to this discussion.

Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"

Ben - thanks for the great comment. I particularly appreciate this: "IMHO, honesty is never saying anything that you don't think is true, emphasis on think. Integrity is never saying anything you don't know is true, emphasis on the word know." I also like your question - is love a feeling or an action. My personal experience with love isn't the same as what I hear most people express. I do believe I was born loving everyone (perhaps because I believed everyone loved me). I still, at age fifty-two, automatically love and trust people until they prove they don't earn those things from me - even then, I maintain what I believe is a loving attitude toward most everyone (the last six years have allowed me to feel hatred toward a few people) in that I will fight for what I believe is best for everyone, even if I don't like how they treat me or want to share company with them. I think relates to your comment - if not, I apolgize and thank you for sending me to those thoughts anyway. Again, thank you for reading my article and for your involved response. I appreciate your time and kindness.

Hey Sandy, as I was reading this I envisioned a top dog at Wal-mart Corporate reading article and following thread. Honesty and ethics are something most thinking people spend a lot of time mediating. I try to keep true to myself, but when I waiver sometimes it takes articles like this and deep thoughts to sort things through. Second to knowing your morals is knowing the reasons why you violate them. The how, why, where are important points to examine within yourself to get back on track. Learn, forgive, and move on. I don't enjoy shopping at Wal-mart but I do. I prefer Target but it has been reported that some of their practices are just as bad. While in Wal-mart I seldom let an opportunity pass where I don't tell one of the employees 'You guys need to unionize' or 'You know that Wal-mart provides health care for their employees in Germany but not in the US.' It does soften my dread of shopping there and by the expressions I receive on the employee's faces sometimes I believe they are thankful that someone does validate their plight.

IMHO, Walmart is an ethical and honest company which has brought low priced goods to people who never had such access before. That was Sam Walton's dream and Walmart has continued down that road. Before Walmart, those goods were either not available or available at an unaffordable price to people with low incomes. The mom and pops were expensive and jobs at them were not as well paid as at Walmart.

I know several people working at Walmart and they all feel quite fortunate to have their jobs. In fact, they consider them to be plums and among the best jobs around. And why would they want a union? Look what unions are doing to unionized industries. And look at the great non-union jobs foreign car producers are providing in this country. The U.S. workforce is voting with its feet against unions with well less than 20% of all workers being unionized inspite of supportive federal laws and regulations.

I worked last in a unionized company and had no problem with unions because my union employees loved what I was doing and did not permit their union leaders to bother me. But in the other parts of the company, people were split over whether the union was an aid or a drag. IMHO, top down command and control, which naturally demeans and disrespects workers, is the real enemy and causes workers to look for any port in the storm of frustration.

Unfortunately, while unions look to be a near term solution they most often have become a long term problem. I wish that management would do far better at treating employees with great respect and as valued team players and helping them to learn how to do so is what I do.

Best regards, Ben
Author "Leading People to be Highly Motivated and Committed"

Sandy, this is a terrific article, and I enjoyed the commentary almost as much.

Thanks for directing me (us) to it!

Eric, thank you for coming to read this. I hope it helped you understand me a tiny bit more. I also enjoyed the comments in this thread, because others contributed to the topic instead of just discussing what I had written. I don't appreciate Ben's inaccurate portrayal of Walmart, however.

I tend not to agree with Ben on many things, particularly his penchant for personally attacking people who don't agree with them. Very bad form.

Yes, Sandy,

Like Eric, I want to thank you for directing us from Cheryl's article to your fine words. I resonate with your views, as presented here.

Thanks, Eric and William.

I have read the article and the thread, agreeing with most of it, but I just noticed the dates on the previous comments and do not understand...never the less, having read, I must stick in my 2cents...I know you and others have heard it before, never the less it is 'my' truth.

Facts are those things that we agree with others to be so. Thus there will be other facts that may conflict with ours because other people with other agreements consider that their facts. It all depends upon what your source of information is and the intended use of it, not to mention your 'group' factors of those issues.
Facts are then 'objective' and relative to agreement, primarily by objective definitions.

Truth then is subjective because it is a personal issue of understanding based upon personal information interpretation and is then your opinion of what truth is in any particular circumstance. Truth has various definitions and I have one based upon universal principles that are yet too esoteric for most people. I call it the BET (Basic Equation of Truth) and it is formulated as (+=-), and that is also a paradox !

I have written a book about it, the concept could change the world for the better, but I will not hold my breath.

I just looked back far enough to see that this is a May article...explains the dates. But in case any come back to it, maybe as I did, see spiritcalls

Hey. Do you get points if I just, you know, rate and run? Drive-by points, if you will.

Or must I actually think up something witty to say to each article? Cuz like, I'm not feeling especially witty this AM... but very rate-hap hap happy...

Lori, I don't know how points are assigned, so I have no idea if we get points for rate and runs. I appreciate that you were here and left a comment.

Fascinating threads in addition to the article. My favorite phrase is

"standards don't come on a sliding scale".

That should be everyone's motto. Well, I suppose Wal Mart won't adopt it!

Wilma, thank you for reading this old article and drawing me back to read the comments again. THIS was early Gather, and is what so many of us miss. Articles contained information and/or a clear point of view, and the comments were a discussion.

I like your article Sandy and I appreciate how you haven't wavered from your stance on truth or honesty. I'm comparing this "old" article and your current comments within threads of other articles. I always believe I should be honest. What is the point otherwise? Of course this is probably the reason I have lost some connections. I've been here at Gather for a little over a month. Looking back on my beginning here, I feel that some people connected to me because I was fresh blood and might comment on their threads. Some poeple I feel connected to me as a way of welcoming me and I appreciate the hospitality. After I posted some articles that I had an emotional or personal connection to, I then had some people connecting because they felt sorry for me. I think that the first and last of these connection scenarios are sad but even if I'm correct I do appreciate that my connections are still there since I agreed to all of my connections BECAUSE I liked what they had to offer to Gather. I have connections to people and I don't always agree with their opinions, but I will not disconnect because I don't agree with them. I will disconnect or not connect with people who change their colors like a chameleon and therefore are rarely honest in their views. These types of people are usually the ones who agree with their friends and then change their mind on the topic and agree with an opposing article to join the crowd in agreement. I am an honest person and the people in my life can try and prove me wrong, but they will fail.

I have many more thoughts on honesty but I talk too much as it is so I'll leave this tidbit and wish you a good day!

Thank you for pointing me to your article Sandy.

Melissa, thank you so much for this great comment. I particularly like this part, because I had this discussion with a few other members in recent days: I will disconnect or not connect with people who change their colors like a chameleon and therefore are rarely honest in their views. These types of people are usually the ones who agree with their friends and then change their mind on the topic and agree with an opposing article to join the crowd in agreement.

I am often frustrated by those who don't seem to notice that some people do this. They agree with one person and express one opinion on one thread, and then skip over to another article and agree with someone who has expressed an opposite opinion. They profess certain beliefs and principles, yet do not demonstrate either.

Often, people state that a site like this is not 'the real world' so they don't expect honesty from others, and sometimes don't feel any remorse about not delivering it themselves. Gather exists in my real world. I am the same me everywhere. The people here, regardless of the name or face they use, are real people. I expect the same of them as I would anyone in my life, and I expect honesty and consistency always.

I am sorry you think you talked too much because I would have enjoyed reading much more. Maybe I can convince you to write your own article on the topic? Please let me know if you do, because I don't want to miss it.

I could name a whole bunch of people who do this (the two-faced/hypocritical thing) but don't want to draw the attention of The Gather Flaggit. Suffice to say this, along with a few other criteria, and the fact that I don't publish is the reason I have very few connections.

I've been torn by the fact that a few of my connections and subscriptions have taken to publishing crap over the last few days. As that is one of my criteria for refusing a connection do I disconnect or unsubscribe from them? Can I maintain my integrity by assuring myself that they are doing it in the name of parody or to make a point or that that was not the type of content that they produced when I subscribed or connected (or, the saddest option of all, they are getting the last few points they need before leaving forever)?

Sandy,
You'll know if I write an article on this topic. ;o) When I have the time (after spring semester) I will definitely be writing more articles. Articles I've published thus far have been "dug" up or are for school assignments.

Oh! And thank you for valuing my comments. You're as nutty as I am in the sense that I wait with bated breath for the next response in a thread and thank people for taking the time to comment...even if not intelligently. :o( For that last part I'd have to point you to a particular comment on one of my articles. I thought I handled it nicely too. I won't divulge which comment here but will gladly refer you to it in an email.

I can only divulge, from what you've written everywhere on Gather, that you've a good mind and are a great person Sandy.

Janna,
I've been seeing what you've described. I'm referring to the backlash on the fluff material. I see and read some of what these people have posted and usually roll my eyes. I sometimes comment too and it's not anymore extensive than the "nice article." I believe they could better get their point across by setting an example rather than to parodize. But I do realize that when angered by situations, sometimes we just have to get silly for a second. I've done this in "real life." And while I'm once again rambling...what the heck is the difference between Gather, the internet in general, and "real life?" I see no difference! I am the same all over the internet. I feel sad for the person who latches onto the anonymity of the internet and therefore puts on a costume and goes about their business. I have also discovered that these same people WILL eventually show their true colors.

Janna, I haven't looked at your connection list, but feel safe in saying you can assume parody and last few points. I apologize to you, and to everyone who is connected me, for my activity over the last few months. I tested at one point - published four pieces of trash one week and four stories that I believe are above average content. The trash earned more points and garned more comments.

And then, there was the unveiling of the 'essentials' program, where Gather decided to pay outsiders who didn't write as well as those who had hung around on a promise of one day "making more than beer money" more for their contributions and block their loyal, better writers from the feature page.

Since the flaggits and hypocrips hit everything I publish, I was being compensated less for decent work than others were for inferior work, and I had no chance of being featured, I decided then that I would not put anything else I care about on this site. I have republished some of what I already had here, hoping to at least balance my current contributions for the sake of those who care.

Thanks again, Melissa. I will watch for that email.

Some days the world is too much with us.

It sure feels that way sometimes, Diane.

"Unless I apply the same standards to everyone I meet, I am dishonest and unfair to both sides because I have blurred the truth for everyone."

Sandy, that knowledge is hard won for some of us, and more true than many will ever see.

Thank you, Dawn. This is where things get tough for me - principles about personalities.

Sandy, I remember this article! It really made me think at the time and still makes me think. I see that people were still commenting on it as of last April.

Lisa, I love this article for the comments. Remember how it used to be? Real disussions? I miss that so much.

Dang I said a lot. If and when I do write my own article about this, do you mind if I steal my comments Sandy? LOL

Life would be so much better if we all lived that way. Just being able to have faith in others to be honest with you would make things simpler.

I've never understood why someone would lie to a friend about looking good in an outfit when it didn't. There are so many other things to say that are true without hurting her feelings. Maybe that's me blurring the lines. I recognize not all people share the same taste.