True democracy can be ours!

Yes!

Thanks for the link to the Open Voting Consortium!

Odd....

The Open Voting Consotuim says not one thing about the millions of votes cast by illegal aliens and felons.

More oddly, most Open Voting initiatives in recent years have been oriented toward making illegal and multiple voting more difficult to detect.

Could it be that there is an agenda at work here?

The Open Voting Consotuim says not one thing about the millions of votes cast by illegal aliens and felons.

Another completely unsupported comment by Greg.

Of course, I'm sure Greg will be along presently with a reference to freerepublic.com or celebritywonder.com.

Another interesting Orwellian twist from Jade Gold.

I have been asked to prove what is not there.

Jade, If you believe that the site says one thing about the millions of votes cast by illegal aliens and felons, you are free to post a link to that one thing.

If you are able to prove me wrong I will graciously admit that you were correct.

Go for it.

Greg: You made the asertion that there is " millions of votes cast by illegal aliens and felons."

Your assertion. Your responsibility to support.

Look, if I claim that the dark side of the moon is inhabited by little green men--it's not the responsibility of my audience to prove these little green men don't exist.

Your assertion. Your responsibility to support.

A very simple concept, that Greg can't seem to grasp. I would say this is the problem EVERYONE has with him (something he said to me earlier), but I haven't personally polled everybody. That's why I have a problem with him.

The fact that "millions of illegals voted" is an opinion of mine, Jade.

What is not an opinion is my point about the failure of the Open Voting Consortium to address the issue of illegal aliens and felons voting.

That's why I have a problem with him.

Your problem with me Sandy is that I do not subscribe to your worldview, and I am bold enough to state that in public.

I challenge your intolerance and that bugs you.

For your reading pleasure TownHall: The illegal alien swing vote

While unhinged Democrats spread fear about the alleged discriminatory disenfranchisement of American citizens, they have supported the indiscriminate enfranchisement of untold numbers of foreign outlaws -- including suspected al Qaeda operatives and terrorist sympathizers.

Last week, the Columbus (Ohio) Dispatch reported that illegal alien Nuradin Abdi -- the suspected shopping mall bomb plotter from Somalia -- was registered to vote in the battleground state of Ohio by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), a left-wing activist group. Also on the Ohio voting rolls: convicted al Qaeda agent Iyman Faris, who planned to sabotage the Brooklyn Bridge and had entered the country fraudulently from Pakistan on a student visa.

In the battleground state of Florida, indicted terror suspect Sami Al-Arian illegally cast his ballot in a Tampa referendum in 1994 while his citizenship application was pending. He claimed the unlawful vote was the result of a "misunderstanding." State officials declined to prosecute.

ACORN drumming up the terrorist vote: got to love it!

Analysis: Few controls on illegal voting

WASHINGTON, Nov. 21, 2003(UPI) -- The nation's election boards have few controls that would prevent illegal immigrants from voting in federal, state or local elections, with many of them saying they operate under a patriotic cloak of trust that individuals casting ballots will conform to U.S. law.

Federal immigration officials estimate between 8 million and 11 million illegal immigrants live in the United States. With the limited restrictions on voting policies, some say that raises serious questions about the integrity of the U.S. voting system.

Democrats Recruiting at Illegal Immigrant Protests

A number of photos were taken at yesterday's Dallas illegal immigrant protest, including this one of a Democrat recruitment flyer encouraging Mexican immigrants to vote for Democrats in 2006.

TownHall? I think I'd give CelebrityWonder.Com more credibility.

From your UPI/Moonie Times article:

Stein says no one can say with any degree of certainty how often illegal immigrants vote, but that there are occasional fraud investigations. He pointed to the 1996 California race between former Rep. Robert Dornan and Rep. Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat, who defeated him by 985 votes.

In that race Dornan challenged the election results and set up a year-long battle over the validity of more than 700 votes, allegedly by illegal immigrants. A House committee voted to drop the investigation of Dornan's accusations, saying that while they had found evidence of illegal votes by non-citizens, it wasn't enough to affect the race.

As for your Wizbang nonsense--you are aware that most of the folks at those immigration rallies are US citizens? Or do you really believe thousands of illegal immigrants would amass at one location and proclaim that they're here illegally? BTW, I was one of the US citizens present at today's rally on the Mall.

A House committee voted to drop the investigation of Dornan's accusations, saying that while they had found evidence of illegal votes by non-citizens, it wasn't enough to affect the race.

It has got to be bad when a House Committee run by Democrats has to admit that illegals are voting but of course, they are the same people who issued state drivers licenses to illegals.

It has got to be bad when a House Committee run by Democrats

Note the race in question was 1996. Repugs have controlled the House and its commitees since 1994.

Greg Schiller: Fact-free.

My mistake, I thought that was a California House race.

See Jade, that is how it works. I can make a mistake and be honest enough to admit it unlike your problems with our discussions on Oriana Fallaci and Jane Fonda where you were caught making things up and refusing to be honest about it.

Greg: Two things.

One, I'm always correct; it's a gift.

Two, you're dishonest and fact-free.

One, I'm always correct; it's a gift.

I believe that you truly believe that.........sad.

Can't help the gift, Greg.

Can't help the gift, Greg

Sure you can, there are many therapists who specialize in self-delusion problems.

First off, Open Voting Consortium's aim is to provide a solution to the unreliability of computerized voting machines that count the votes in a "black box" with proprietary code owned by the voting machines that no one, not even the officials charged with administering elections, is allowed to examine. It is meant to solve the problems with the buggy machines that are currently used to count our votes. That is ALL they are about. They are also a non-partisan organization. (But I am not, so please don't expect my comments to represent OVC. They don't.)

Since their focus is on solving the problems with computerized voting glitches, they have NOTHING to do with voter registration or deciding who gets to vote and who does not. There is no agenda here of any kind on that front.

Now, for my own opinion on your comments. There is very little voter registration fraud in America, no matter what the right-wing talk shows you listen to might tell you. Heck, we can hardly even get anyone in America to bother about voting. It's not like people are lining up to do something illegally that most Americans won't even bother to do legally. The few cases you cite, even if true, are isolated incidents that certainly don't outweigh Republicans throwing legally registered voters off the voter rolls in several states. The assertion that "millions" of illegals vote is frankly absurd. That would be a ridiculous percentage of the total population of voters, and most illegal aliens are so concerned about being deported that they won't risk doing anything illegal while in this country, other than coming here illegally in the first place. Because first thing that will happen to them if they get caught is they'll be deported, and that is the last thing they want.

Now that I hope we've established that a discussion of illegal immigrants trying to vote is completely off-topic for this thread, which has to do with computerized voting, does anyone have any comments on the actual subject?

What do you think? Do you trust computers to count your vote in secret without anyone showing you how it works? Would you like to have voting systems that are demonstrated to work correctly? That the public can test and verify? How do you feel about voting on a computer, versus voting on paper, versus voting on a computer that creates a paper record?

Distraction...that's the way they work when they know you are right.
Astro Girl....Thanks for posting this. We definitely need to do something about the Black Box Voting. I still don't understand what the problem is with paper ballots. Diebold makes the voting machines and ATM machines. Do you or do you not get a receipt when you make a transaction at an ATM? What would be so wrong with depositing the slips of paper in... a ballot box, so that if there are any serious discrepencies, votes can be counted by hand.
There will ALWAYS be means of voter fraud getting through, because that's human nature. The problem is that the system should not be ASKING for fraud. The system should have as many safeguards built in to protect that vote, as are practical. Black Box Voting has virtually none. Plus, it was released on the public before any of the bugs were worked out.
If Diebold can make a machine that keeps banks from having huge mistakes in book keeping, WHY can't they make a voting machine with the same fail safes? Could it be that Diebold is a 100% Republican contributor? Just asking.

So let me get this straight, you consider voter integrity to be walking into a polling site with only a utility bill as identification........then recording the resulting vote with perfect integrity.

Now, for my own opinion on your comments. There is very little voter registration fraud in America, no matter what the right-wing talk shows you listen to might tell you.

Obviously you have never heard of Cook County Illinois.

Face it, the Democratic Party heavily depends on voter fraud as a electoral tactic that is why they continually dumb down registration and auditing.

This concept of Open Source Voting as a means to develop transparent software is not a bad idea, but it is an idea driven by the myth and paranoia surrounding the failure of the Democratic Party to sufficient motivates its base in Ohio to win the state in 2004.

And (just my opinion again, not related to OVC), the Republican party depends on keeping legally registered voters from voting (hundreds, if not thousands of them in Ohio in 2004) and using voting machines that can be easily hacked. Here's the site to go to for the real story on what happened in Ohio in 2004: http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19
They've done more research on this than probably anyone else.

So, you think the problems with black box voting machines are based on myth? Have you seen the video made by Bev Harris of http://www.blackboxvoting.org where she shows Howard Dean how to hack a Diebold voting database in about 60 seconds flat? That ought to get Republicans shaking in their boots. I tried to find it for you, but not sure where it's located on the web. Didn't immediately see it on their web site. Anyway, it's shocking.

The unsecure, hackable machines we're currently using all across America should be a concern to anyone who believes in democracy. This is not a partisan issue. OVC and Black Box Voting both have support from Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, and so on across the political spectrum. I'm glad you agree that the concept of open source, transparent software isn't a bad idea.

We can argue all you want about who should vote and what the requirements should be for voter registration (but let's not do it on this thread, because that's off-topic), but one thing is for sure. Once someone is registered legally, their vote should be counted and counted correctly. I think we can all agree on that.

I tried again, and here it is...tada! The video of Howard Dean learning to hack a Diebold GEMS tabulator:
http://www.udpc.org/evote-lowband.htm
If you're concerned about Democrats cheating in elections, Greg, you should be concerned about this. I think it's pretty clear that so far, Democrats have been the biggest victims of these machines, but that doesn't mean it couldn't go the other way in the future.

Here's another cute video where a chimp does the same thing:
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/2197/2368.html?1144138741

If you want to make comparisons between Howard Dean and a chimp, go for it. This time, I'll let you get away with it, Greg, so long as you get that this potential for electronic voting machines to be hacked is a real problem.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments.

By the way, Greg, I do have another article that does deal with voter registration:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976745719

If you want to comment on that, knock your socks off.