Those Dangerous Quakers

We live in very trying and devisive times. Perhaps,we'll all be on some list soon while the lies and corruption continue. I love the country of my birth but fear my government.

Brava, qalbi. If GB gets his way, we'll all be on an enemies list and have our phones tapped. I lived through all of this during the Viet Nam War. The reasons for staying were all the same. As the saying goes, it's deja vu all over again. Thanks.

Any religious sect has hidden dangers. The best intentions, the holiest intentions, can go awry in the worst ways. But there is also great good that come from the beliefs and lifestyles that these people lead. There are those that live this type of lifestyle, and make it work, and those people are the rare gems.

Our founding parents are crying in their various heavens.

Allan

FIGHT THE POWER!

Blessings Cathy. It appears that many organizations advocating peace rather than war are under suspicion as well as those of us who participate in marches and write letters or columns. I read recently that Dorothy Day's Catholic Worker organization is also under suspicion. The FBI report (or was it the CIA) says that they advocate loving one's neighbor. Heaven forbid that we should care about the welfare of the downtrodden ... why it's downright subversive it is ... especially when tax cuts for the wealthy are in the nation's best interest and war is the way to peace.

Shades of Nixon. It's a terrible thing for people to live in fear of their own government.

Well said, you guys!

Carl: Strange that you should mention Nixon. Afterall, he was raised Quaker. War is very seductive – might makes right, after all, so the saying goes.

Peace, Love, Justice - now that's powerful!

Gary, that's right! I'd forgot that Nixon and Herbert Hoover both claimed to be Quakers.

Our Defense Department (an Offensive Department) should go on the list as suspiciously dangerous. They're idiots, to put it politely. The Quakers have been stalwarts for peaceful coexistence since their founding. They also rubbed shoulders with (and included some of) our Founding Fathers.

Where's Ben Franklin when you need him? I'd just face him toward the Shrub Administration, say, "Sic 'em!", and turn him loose...

I think its a stretch to say that the "progressive community" embraced Kathy Soliah. It was really a few members of her home congregation.

In Minnesota our progressive community embraced a woman who participated in the shotgun slaying of a pregnant bank customer in California.

They bought her cook book, cheered her at concerts and turned her in to a local celebrity of the progressive community.

Here name was Kathy Soliah, aka Sara Jane Olsen. This is a woman who joined a group whose first official act was to assasinate a black school board member with a cyanide tipped bullet. The group, the SLA, then kidnapped and repeatedly raped a young girl.

Kathy Soliah joined the SLA with full knowledge of what this group did, and the progressive community of Minneapolis supported Kathy Soliah with full knowledge of what she did.

Let's just say that as long as we have a "peace" and progressive community that thinks murder and rape is clever, I am damned glad someone is keeping tabs on them.

I think its a stretch to say that the "progressive community" embraced Kathy Soliah. It was really a few members of her home congregation.

Not at all Gary.....(by the way sorry for the repositioning of my post, I corrected a typo).

The low point for the Twin City progressive/peace community was a fund-raising concert for Ms Soliah where she basked in the cheers of well over a thousand "activists".

Several leaders of the progressive/peace community....political office holders such as State Representatives Andy Dwokins and Sandy Pappas supported her knowing fully who and what she was.

You may find these links interesting.

Support Sara Olson

Ralley
October 15th (sceduled first day of trial)
Outside the Superior Criminal Courts Building
210 West Temple
9am

Mercy for a terrorist?

The Minneapolis Star-Tribune describes the attitude of the liberal community in St. Paul after learning of her past in these terms: "In the days since her June 16 arrest, Olson [Soliah] has been almost canonized: reader of newspapers for the blind, volunteer among victims of torture, organizer of soup kitchens. The office manager of the Minnehaha United Methodist Church, where she is a member of the congregation, called on its members to build a "contingent of support." Twenty of them were said to have been in court in California on the day she was arraigned.

Here is my favorite
Women Against Military Madness

In 1982 Margy took a five-year leave of absence to work and travel on anti-apartheid issues. Margy and a group of dedicated people worked hard, speaking wherever they could find an audience, persuading individuals and groups to divest from South African investments. While working on anti-apartheid activities, Margy met Sara Jane Olson, and they have remained friends for the past 20 years. Now Margy is one of the founders and activists on the Sarah Olson Defense Fund Committee.

So it is okay to murder an innocent woman making bank deposits...........for peace?

I say crank up the NSA and keep track of these nutcases!!!!

Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity??

Greg,
I don't understand how you are comparing the case of which you speak with the Quakers working for peace and justice?!!??
Are you saying because this happened, NSA is justified in spying on all war opposition groups?

I don't understand how you are comparing the case of which you speak with the Quakers working for peace and justice?!!??

I am saying that few who claim they are working for peace are actually working for peace. As you can see by the link to "Margy" from Women Against Military Madness we have a woman who opposes non-Marxist war but has no problem with radical Marxists raping, kidnapping and murdering innocent people.

In any radical group there are violent radicals...that is why it is necessary to monitor radical groups.

I appreciate that clarification, Greg.
Is it radical to work for peace and justice? If this is radical, heaven help us all!

Hannah - the Quakers aren't taking over Washington DC anytime soon. When's the last time you heard of a Quaker straping explosives to their body and setting it off in the mall?

Sandy - AWESOME line!

Cathy, great as always

Is it radical to work for peace and justice? If this is radical, heaven help us all!

One has to assume that the world will believe that "working for peace" is what these groups are all about.

Unfortunetly the world has seen more "working for violence", "working for Marxism" and "working for Saddam" than anything else.

Calling it "peace" does not make it peace and hiding violence and irresponsible radicalism behind the banner of "peace" only makes peace more elusive than ever.

The group which is on the Defence Department List is NOT violent OR irresponsible, but peaceful to the core.
Until otherwise obvious, the government has no business spying on the citizenry who engage in peace and social justice.

And Chris, nice mention about the actions of Quakers :)

The group which is on the Defence Department List is NOT violent OR irresponsible,

So you say but the history of the "peace" movement proves that the movement was anything but peaceful and non-violent.

Of course, when it is revealed to you that people hiding under the umbrella of the Quakers are not peaceful..........then you get to throw your hands up in the air and loudly proclaim.......but, but, but, but...we do not approve of that!!!

I got to reveal how Joseph's group actually came to be monitored by the NSA. It turns out that they were not really monitored by the intelligence section of the NSA but by the security office, the same people who guard the front desk. The reason that they were monitored was that they were threatening to disrupt a NSA staff FAMILY picnic.

Yup, they were putting kids in harms way.......now tell me how "peaceful" that is?

So Cathy, we have all witnessed an abundance of violence and hypocrisy coming from the "peace" movement and no one but no one really believes that there is the slightest interest in peace coming from those quarters.

I do want to add that I have a great respect for American Friends.......individually, but that is about where the respect ends.

Sara Olsen - I do not know if she is a killer or a person unjustly acused. What I do know is our country is stuck in an unjust war.
We must not let GWB and his spin doctors combine the issues.

What gets me about this country in our current times are the parallels with the 60s. We have a lot of government interference, yet, unlike the 60s, the ground swell has not happened yet. It is beginning, but moving too slow for my taste. I worry when Quakers are accused of being subversive. Shades of Nixon, right on!

Perhaps the greatest Quaker of all, a lawyer and patriot gave us the basis for our Bill of Rights and Constitution was watched, indicted and convicted of assembling. Without William Penn's protest at the risk of arrest Americans would not enjoy the freedoms we now have. Hoover, Nixon, Poindexter, the NSA will rob us all of those freedoms with platitudes of protection.

Here is the facts on Sara Jane Olsen.

She IS Kathy Soliah, a person who joined a terrorist cell that murdered seveal people then kidnapped and systematically raped a young college student. Once she joined them, she participated in the shotgun murder of a pregnant bank customer. No one, including her, disputes these facts.

There is a world of difference between protest and terrorims, Ms. Olsen/Soliah clearly stepped over that line.

As for the Quakers, no one is really bothered by protest or opposition to foreign policy....hell, half the Senate and Congress does that.

The fact that no one is bothered by activists or takes them seriously is very bothersome to the Quakers and "peace activists" so they continually seek out new ways of prodding the government into being bothered by them.

What is at issue is the notion of hiding behind the mantle of peace without being peaceful. Stopping at nothing to get the government to monitor them so they can complain about being monitored is beyond protest.

Disrupting an NSA staff family picnic and scaring kids.is not what the faith is all about.

Kathy Soliah =/= the entire progressive community.

You're using that case as a straw man - should we progressives judge the right in America by the insane rantings of Michelle Malkin, or by Ann Coulter's "joking" calls to poison Supreme Court Justices?

> As for the Quakers, no one is really bothered by protest or opposition to foreign policy....hell, half the Senate and Congress does that.

If no one is bothered by protest or opposition to foreign policy, why such strenuous efforts on the part of the Bush Administration and the Secret Service to segregate protesters from "loyal" crowds? Why the loyalty oaths to enter Bush campaign rallies? Why was the Pentagon spying on these Quakers?

Why was a man arrested in South Carolina and charged with "threatening the president" for the crime of holding up a sign that read "No More Blood For Oil"?

As yet, I have seen no evidence that increased surveillance is making us "safer".

As yet, I have seen no evidence that increased surveillance is making us "safer".

And plenty of evidence that it is making us less safe.

I never met a Quaker I didn't like. Actually, I've net met a quaker, or at least talked to someone who espoused their beliefs. It would be interesting to hear more about the Quakers. We all know they have a rich American history, pacifistic, and settled in Pennsylvania (?) Cathy can you give a brief outline of the major tenets commonly held among Quakers? Thanks, Ed

"Calling it "peace" does not make it peace and hiding violence and irresponsible radicalism behind the banner of "peace" only makes peace more elusive than ever." - Greg Schilling

The Quakers' integrity is in nonviolence. They are the quintessential peace advocates with a history of compromising on monumentally important issues because they could not simultaneously support the issue and work for peace. The best example is that they were some of the main architects of the underground railroad pre-Civil War. But they were ensured by the governments both local and federal that if they were to continue their activities on behalf of African American slaves and freedmen, they were going to incite violent protest. In order to maintain the integrity of their stance for peace, they let go of their efforts to help the African American people move to safer regions. Likely because of this decision, Quakers, as a spiritual community have had a difficult time attracting African American members. If this dedication to peace is subversive and dangerous then there is no such thing as peace.

It seems to me the only people who have used disinformation and misdirection to mislead the American public has been te Bush administration. Talk about an organization with violence supporting radicals!

If no one is bothered by protest or opposition to foreign policy, why such strenuous efforts on the part of the Bush Administration and the Secret Service to segregate protesters from "loyal" crowds? Why the loyalty oaths to enter Bush campaign rallies?

Bush and his supporters have just as much right to speak and be heard as protestors. It has become a tactic of the left to disrupt this process.

When civility goes out the door so does access.

The Quakers' integrity is in nonviolence.

The Quakers have blurred the line by participating in civil action with violent Marxists. You are known by the company you keep.

What Heather had to say about the Quakers is all true. Theyhad their start in England where some of their first works were to go into insane asylums and prisons to minister to the inmates there. They base their actions on their sparce theology that believes that "there is that of God in every person, and one's duty is to find that." They are the consummate believers in everyone is equal, William Penn calling the King by his given name. Some of the highlights of their good works included giving away their own slaves early in the 19th Century, women's equality in the 18th Century, leaders of the Underground Railroad. They started the American Friends Service Committee during WWI where they volunteered as ambulance drivers, and medical workers for both sides. They were the first in the whole of Europe for war relief after the Second World War. I have heard both German, Pole, Dane, Finns tell me of their war relief delivered by the Quakers. Pacifist activities are not the only thing that AFSC as well as Quaker meetings participate in. AFSC is a leader in prison reform, work in mental institutions, battered women centers, education conferences on peace, racial tensions, poverty, and other social ills. I worked weekends at a mental institution through the AFSC in the 60's bringing in volunteers to the wards. Of course, rather than it being mainly to help the patients, the weekends ended in volunteers being changed in their view of life. I could go on about all of the things AFSC does. But they are a very quiet group, working always peacefully to change people and their views, by involving them in "meeting the other side" actually letting people find out that "there is that of God in every person, and our duty is to find that." I can say I have never found a violent person within AFSC,only intense but peaceful, and gentle.

Reading all of these comments, trying not to let personal opinion override an objective response, I am struck by how the government, "our" government, seems to be polarizing the American people by siccing the various "investigative" agencies on them. This seems to allow the media on both sides of the fence to further label people and groups "anti-something" or "pro-something", and then we can get on web sites such as this and tear each other apart without regard for differences of opinion. Shame on us! The more divided we are, the easier it is to not only divide us further, but distract us from some very real problems with the government of our country. "Divide and Conquer" seems to be working quite well in America. How ludicrous that if you don't support GB, then you are anti-American, subversive, and worthy of investigation. I think we are all quite aware of who the enemy is, and I doubt it's the Quakers, but this tearing at each other over differences of opinion oly helps the real enemy.

Reading all of these comments, trying not to let personal opinion override an objective response, I am struck by how the government, "our" government, seems to be polarizing the American people by siccing the various "investigative" agencies on them. This seems to allow the media on both sides of the fence to further label people and groups "anti-something" or "pro-something", and then we can get on web sites such as this and tear each other apart without regard for differences of opinion. Shame on us! The more divided we are, the easier it is to not only divide us further, but distract us from some very real problems with the government of our country. "Divide and Conquer" seems to be working quite well in America. How ludicrous that if you don't support GB, then you are anti-American, subversive, and worthy of investigation. I think we are all quite aware of who the enemy is, and I doubt it's the Quakers, but this tearing at each other over differences of opinion only helps the real enemy.

> Bush and his supporters have just as much right to speak and be heard as protestors. It has become a tactic of the left to disrupt this process.

So suddenly, a lone man holding a sign becomes an attempt to squelch the addle-pated adulation of Our Maximum Leader, and thus a threat to his very life?

Puh-leeze. Not even the most cowardly bed-wetter on the right could seriously believe that.

Not even their Oats are dangerous. OUr government is packed to the gills with morons.

I wonder if these guys are under surveillance,

"CHICAGO - At least five Midwestern states are considering legislation to ban protests at funerals in response to demonstrations by the Rev. Fred Phelps and members of his Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro Baptist Church, who have been protesting at funerals of Iraq war casualties because they say the deaths are God's punishment for tolerance toward gays.

Whenever we,the public, take our eye off the ball our government focuses on groups like the Quakers.
In the 60's it was anyone with a liberal press connection. In the 50's it was anyone with a communist connection. In the forties it was anyone with a Bolshevik connection.
The obvious common thread in all these connections is the high-degree of scrutiny these groups were subjected to before the public started to question what was going on. The underling thread that is common to all these groups is the fear of them our government had at the time.
To me, this pattern shows just how disconnected from the people they govern the system of our government has become.
You have to figure that we are several generations removed from the politcs and politicans of the 1940's, yet the behavior of today's system is almost identical in this area. Did someone teach today's political system to treat all security theats with a Barney Fife-type overkill, or is the system itself perpetuating this lunacy ?
Do we lack a sheriff Andy Taylor in our system ? Is that the problem ?

Once again, it seems our government has too much time on it's hands.

Peace prevails.

All we are saying is give peace a chance.

Absolutely wholly dangerous! Quaker Danger! This kind of danger we need!
Spying on Americans! This is why Bush is in a rush to make spying on Americans legal, something the Department of Defense, especially the NSA can do with great efficacy. Our military is becoming entirely to political, an activity that goes against the Military Code of Conduct & UCMJ. Give me Quaker Power!

I am a Friend/Quaker who just found the Gather site, and this discussion line. I used to live in St. Paul, and briefly met Sara Jane Olsen at a DFL activity. I also know one of the leaders of her home Methodist church. The support they showed her was due to the person she'd been in her Olsen life, not her past Soliah life. I think of Saul/Paul of Tarsus, and his changed life and name. He too went from participation in killing people to become a major organizer/evangelist (we'd call him today) in what became Christianity. Do we focus on his past or on the person he became? It seems to me that people deserve a second chance. It seems that the gift of grace is sometimes given & accepted, sometimes not. Today I'm thinking more of Friend Tom Fox, whose body was recently found in Iraq. He and three other Christian Peacemaker Team members were kidnapped at the end of November. The other three are still being held, alive as of last week. May we all wisely select our convictions.

Jon, thanks for your addition to this topic especially to the Sara Jane factor